Well now it's clear as mud!
If shot #1 were posted in "people" I can pretty much guarantee you not a soul would comment. Many candid shots dont' really get commented on in "people".
I figured anything "posed" goes in people, and all else here.
Well now it's clear as mud!
If shot #1 were posted in "people" I can pretty much guarantee you not a soul would comment.
I don't care for #2 at all, but #1 is really good. And #1 fits PJ. You are recording an event and capturing a real emotion, even if it is mugging for the camera.
The intent of this forum was to focus on the urban environment. In general, I don't think that a candid shot at a kitchen table fits into that. Perhaps a better solution would be to create sub-forums in People for formal and candid shots.
First, street photography is, by and large, people photography - Yes, there are some street images where the urban landscape is the subject. But by and large, street photography is candid photography of people in a public environment; it's more about an ethos, a look, a feel, than it is about urban or 'street' per se.
Second, there is so little candid photography in "People" that allowing it in here is hardly going to turn this into "People." A candid captured moment at a kitchen table is a lot closer to "street photography" than it is to what's in the "People" forum. And, let's not forget that "documentary" is supposed to be included in here, and what is that but candid photography, usually of people?
I don't disagree with either point however when any picture is so closely cropped to show only one face with no other contextual reference it is a portrait, candid or posed, nothing more.
The intent of this forum was to focus on the urban environment. In general, I don't think that a candid shot at a kitchen table fits into that. Perhaps a better solution would be to create sub-forums in People for formal and candid shots.
If that is the case then you need to move PJ to it's own forum. Many PJ (and Documentary) shots happen at the kitchen table.
And that may be part of the confusion. Many of the images that people are calling street or PJ seem like creepy stalker shots or FBI surveillance pictures. Maybe a better thread to start is to properly define Street, Photojournalism and Documentary using examples and discussion.
Part of the reason I asked about books is to gain a deeper understanding of PhotoJournalism in particular and Documentary and Street as a bonus.
Though clearly not a portrait/posed, it doesn't belong here because there isn't enough context. So this, if I were to post it, would go in people. If I had pulled back so the other kids who were talking and goofing around while she did her homework we included, then that would have made it street-worthy, I believe.
I think I have at least a better understanding of where this is going; someone in one post used the term 'candids' to describe a possible future for this forum, but it seems like the 'kids running through the sprinklers' pictures is not what is desireable for this forum, but 'kids interacting in an interesting way' is something. And of course the latter could happily end up in People anyhow.
I think it might be about what sort of feedback you want. Here it is did you capture an emotion, some humor, an absurdity or an interaction and did your framing and technique help tell that story.
I keep forgetting this category has been split from people! I wish it were up there with "Go Figure" when I go to the "people" section. Where ever it is, I'm going to try to remember to start checking frequently and even sometimes posting.
IMO they both go in PEOPLE. There's nothing about either that fits the definition of STREET or PJ
People are people and regardless of their location when photographed a portrait is still a portrait, candid or not.
STREET is supposed to be about capturing environmental shots that define a moment, with or without people, in the context of the activity surrounding the photographer and/or the subject.
PJ is about capturing current events as pertains to a particular story, usually newsworthy.
It seems to me discussions regarding the intent or content of this forum are premature. The forum is doing well and was an answer to numerous requests precisely because there are some among us who do not want to share space with portraits, class reunions, family gatherings, etc.
Expanding S&PJ to include candids will only set us back to mirroring PEOPLE.
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I don't disagree with you Angelo. But, that's why I started the post with the comment that I think the definition is in the intent of the photographer, not necessarily in the results. At least as far as this forum goes. Also, the type of feedback provided by everyone here is as much a part of the definition of the forum as are the pictures themselves.
There was a wonderful series posted here a couple of weeks ago of a family discussion with sitting at a cafe table. Some excellent stuff. Was it "Street" or "PJ" in the literal sense? No, but I certainly think it belonged in this forum.
So back to the original question. Yes, I think the forum is working better after this thread. Just look at the passion.
The intent of this forum was to focus on the urban environment. In general, I don't think that a candid shot at a kitchen table fits into that. Perhaps a better solution would be to create sub-forums in People for formal and candid shots.
I totally disagree. I think Documentary belongs more with Street and PJ than it does with People. The definition that separates the categories into posed and unposed seems to fit most shots. Candid and Documentary photographs don't belong in the same category as portraits and glamor with discussions of lighting and posing.
I totally disagree. I think Documentary belongs more with Street and PJ than it does with People. The definition that separates the categories into posed and unposed seems to fit most shots. Candid and Documentary photographs don't belong in the same category as portraits and glamor with discussions of lighting and posing.
I said this in Makemeshutter's post which got moved to "Technique" I think--anyway the post got moved out of PJ-
I think street/PJ should not discount people living in non urban enviornments. There are plenty of small town people that can post great "story telling" shots in this forum. Someone posted a photo not too long ago of a bunch of men crowding around a truck with the hood up--I thought it was such a great PJ shot--that photo would have not gotten responses in people--People weather you like it or not has now turned into "posed". As Tina says, they are about the lighting, and the posing and the photoshop, and senior shoots and baby shoots and maternity shoots --all posed. I'm not looking down my nose at people as I like to post there too and I'm learning quite a bit, but I wholeheartedly agree that candids and especially documentary belong here as they are not posed.
BTW michswiss--that was my post--family at the diner one--Thanks
There are many definitions of the types of photography supposedly covered by this forum.. PJ is just one element. There have been many discussions on the subject and, if one thing is clear, there is no clear consensus on where to draw the boundries. This has been true from day 1.
For the life of me, I can't see why Diva's set of her daughter is more worthy of being posted in this forum than MakeMeShutter's fisherman. (This is NOT a comment on the merits of the photos, all of which interest me at some level or another.)
What if the fisherman had been a Laotian fishing in the Mekong? How would that be different? Or would it?
I'd so much rather have each poster decide where to post photographs for comment. Like the other forums, a general consensus of what interests the participants will develop. Many of the folks in the People forum certainly made it clear that certain types of people photography leaves them cold.
I understand that the mods are trying to do their best to make the forum and dGrin operate smoothly for the benefit of all involved. Their efforts over the years have been phenomenal - all the more so because they are unpaid volunteers.
I just hate to see the emergence of an elitist attitude toward people who dare to post something here. (I'm thinking of the requirement by some that a PJ photo be newsworthy to all who look at it and insisting that the photographer defend it on these grounds. Can not a photo be considered PJ or documentary even if the effort falls short of a viewer's expectations? Like a portrait where the lighting doesn't work or the pose is unflattering?)
The creation of this forum seemed to me to be an opportunity to engage in dialog with folks who are more into communicating emotion and real moments in life with their work than in technical perfection (though having both in a photo has gotta be the greatest as some of the posts have shown!). It felt welcoming, if a bit daunting in its goals.
I have found to my chagrin in recent days that instead of making me feel that there is a place for my work, I'm going to have to analyze carefully to be sure that what I post fits the mainstream view of what belongs here or suffer the indignity of having the picture moved to another forum where the interest in it will be even less. (I'm not saying that having a post moved is always bad, only that this has, in my view, happened already to at least one poster and I can't figure out how to be sure to avoid it.)
What is the harm in going with the more inclusive view of the forum expressed by some of us while we are growing and letting the issues define themselves along the way. We will all learn from it and eventually, like the People forum, some types of photos will simply fail to engage the group and the poster(s) will search elsewhere or go to other sites.
For me It is not enough to say that the point of posting one's work is to get critique so what is the difference in which forum the critique is given.
Forums matter because it invites critique from other photographer's whose work you admire and respect.
It matters because over time people get to know each others' work and ambitions. They become friends in photography. They help each other grow. The Wedding forum is a good example (though, I grant you that defining what is included is a lot easier there than here). Even the People forum has a core of good friends who support and applaud each others' growth.
Sorry for the long rant. I'm just feeling so disappointed and sad about this development in our young forum.
Virginia
_______________________________________________ "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
I have to say, I am thoroughly disheartened by all this. Given the number of great photographers that there are on all of Dgrin's forums, it perplexes me that anyone should become offended if a post is moved from one forum to another--or not moved, for that matter. Is it really all that important, guys?
Look, we have forums and sometimes sub-forums to make it easier for members to find what they like (and also avoid what doesn't interest them). Ultimately, any classification scheme is arbitrary (do PJ style wedding shots belong here?). There will always be some ambiguity at the boundaries and sometimes the mods will see things differently than the poster about where something belongs. Sometimes the mods will be wrong, OK? But that needn't ruin anybody's whole day. We are just getting started on this forum and it's OK if the ground rules are still a bit fuzzy.
Oh, and BTW, in this mod's opinion, PJ-style wedding shots belong in the Weddings forum.
[snip] There will always be some ambiguity at the boundaries and sometimes the mods will see things differently than the poster about where something belongs. [snip]
If the photo is ambiguous, and was posted in one of the forums in which it could have merit, then why move it? Although I certainly agree that one should not take offense to having a post moved to somewhere deemed more appropriate by a moderator, why would a moderator move a post that has obvious merit in the forum that it's in? If the poster intends to produce a PJ image, and fails miserably, shouldn't PJ experts be the one to tell them how to try again?
No offense intended, Richard, but why is this thread still in the Street & PJ forum? Shouldn't it have also been moved to Wide Angle? How does a thread about the merits of a forum fit a "shots forum" any more than a thread about its content? Again, I don't mean any offense, but why the double standards?
If the photo is ambiguous, and was posted in one of the forums in which it could have merit, then why move it? Although I certainly agree that one should not take offense to having a post moved to somewhere deemed more appropriate by a moderator, why would a moderator move a post that has obvious merit in the forum that it's in? If the poster intends to produce a PJ image, and fails miserably, shouldn't PJ experts be the one to tell them how to try again?
No offense intended, Richard, but why is this thread still in the Street & PJ forum? Shouldn't it have also been moved to Wide Angle? How does a thread about the merits of a forum fit a "shots forum" any more than a thread about its content? Again, I don't mean any offense, but why the double standards?
Because it's just too much work to be consistent, mainly. What's obvious to you might not be obvious to me, and someone else might actually have a completely opposite view. I just go with my gut. I can't get too worked up about where a thread belongs, though. If you are only looking at one forum on Dgrin, you're missing a lot.
For the life of me, I can't see why Diva's set of her daughter is more worthy of being posted in this forum than MakeMeShutter's fisherman. (This is NOT a comment on the merits of the photos, all of which interest me at some level or another.)
I'm glad somebody made this point. I posted my shots because it was mentioned somewhere (I can't now remember which thread or by whom) that certain kinds of candids could fit well here and "newbies" to this forum were encouraged to post and join in. So I did But after I posted them, I saw another discussion where candids weren't necessarily appropriate. I left them there just to see what the responses might be, but I've also kind of been half-expecting them to be moved......
However, I did start to think about this and I wonder where that line is: as my own child, those could well be People but if I'd taken them (equally unspotted by the subject) at a park, with the subject a stranger... then I would for sure consider them fodder for this forum. Where's that line?
Not trying to fan the flames, pour oil on troubled waters or any other cliche you can come up with, just musing.
Btw, I think it is EXCELLENT to have a separate forum - the gritty nature of a lot doc/pj/street/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-that-isn't-formal-portraiture-or-pretty-pretty-stuff has in the past, I've noticed, pushed some emotional buttons when posted in People, and not always happily. I think by having those shots separated, it gives a freer voice both to the photographers to share "difficult" images, and the commentators to respond in kind.
I do most definitely think this forum is worth sustaining, and I hope the friendly bickering about definitions isn't going to poison the waters - I like it here, even if I'm more usually a lurker....
For what it's worth, I don't think any one should l care if a mod moves a thread. They are not trying to be exclusive, they are trying to help members get feedback. No one is "getting in trouble" for posting in the wrong place. I think the only exception to that may be if someone were to post nudes in a place other than go figure- it would just be bad etiquette to fail to give a warning about the content.
First, street photography is, by and large, people photography - Yes, there are some street images where the urban landscape is the subject. But by and large, street photography is candid photography of people in a public environment; it's more about an ethos, a look, a feel, than it is about urban or 'street' per se.
Second, there is so little candid photography in "People" that allowing it in here is hardly going to turn this into "People." A candid captured moment at a kitchen table is a lot closer to "street photography" than it is to what's in the "People" forum. And, let's not forget that "documentary" is supposed to be included in here, and what is that but candid photography, usually of people?
I read a lot here but haven't commented -- so I suspect there are a number of lurkers who ARE benefiting but not obviously 'here'. I'm learning a lot and only once I've learned enough and done some street photography of my own will I post here
If a person is trying to learn about Macro Photography and trying to understand what it is and what makea a good Macro shot and a moderator moves his or her post to the People section how is that helping that member get feedback from the people that really know about a certain area of photography???????
Shawn, you're right. That would not be helpful at all. That's why the mods don't do that.
What we do is our best to run a forum that's fun, convivial and educational. Like I've said before, you may not agree with our decisions all the time, but I do think that you'll find that our hearts are in the right place and our efforts are well-intentioned.
You posted it in the Macro forum? I'm confused. Your example above about moving from Macro was what I was referring to.
Yes, we move posts. No, you won't always agree with what we do. We're doing our best.
Beyond that, if you're hear to shoot, learn, and have fun, then let's do it!
EDIT: Oh, I see, you were making an extreme case to make a point. Well, we wouldn't move a macro shot to people, but we may move a shot from Street to People, or vice versa. You see, one instance is an extreme bordering on the ridiculous, and the other is a reasonable move that you may disagree with.
"First, street photography is, by and large, people photography - Yes, there are some street images where the urban landscape is the subject. But by and large, street photography is candid photography of people in a public environment; it's more about an ethos, a look, a feel, than it is about urban or 'street' per se.
Second, there is so little candid photography in "People" that allowing it in here is hardly going to turn this into "People." A candid captured moment at a kitchen table is a lot closer to "street photography" than it is to what's in the "People" forum. And, let's not forget that "documentary" is supposed to be included in here, and what is that but candid photography, usually of people?"
I posted an image in here looking to hopefully get some advice and the mod moved it to Other Cool Stuff.
The Macro thing was an example to show why moderators should not move images, I would have rathered recieved some negative comments and some advice on what I could have done to make the image more PJ in style than having had my image moved to a catagory not associated with PJ.
I asked for definitions of Photojournalism, Street and People to find out if I was even on the right track.
UNFORTUNATELY THAT POST WAS MOVED.
I understand posts sometimes need to be moved.
If this is the best I can expect from moderators, I would hate to see their worst.
I, for one, am uber-excited to see this new forum! Although, it appears to be having some growing-pains right now like all new things do. I've been on Dgrin for numerous years now, and some of my very favorite posts have been of very ambiguous shots (such as urban street scenes) that fell flat on their faces because they were posted in a forum such as "Landscapes". The Landscape people did not appreciate them and very few others ever even got the opportunity to see them. It kills me when I see a set of technically great work and no one gets to view it! This forum has been needed for a very long time!
If I were a mod, I would be moving these photos for one purpose only and that would be so that more people could enjoy them and they would get the exposure they deserve. So, Shawn, do not feel that the mods are being elitist and disapproving of your work....they are only trying to do what they feel will bring the most exposure to your post. If, however, (like me) you are trying to learn more about street/pj photography, then say so in your post and ask the viewers what is working for them or what isn't working and why? That should pretty much solve your problem, as long as you are open to criticism! One way to bring interest to the different forums would be to create a forum called "SHOT OF THE WEEK" and let the mod from each forum post their favorite, or most successful post, of that week. It would be a quick way for folks to scan what is going on in other forums (we don't all have time to see it all...) and perhaps generate some interest. Just a thought. By the way, I used to visit People first, then I moved to Wedding and People. Now I come here first.
I have been mostly lurking, posting a comment or two if something really moves me. At the moment I don't feel I know enough about the styles to be too critical and I don't believe in being critical unless you can offer some solutions for growth at the same time. I have been looking for a new direction to take my photography towards, and I think I may have found it! Give me some time to shoot (my biggest problem is time!) and I hope to join you all. I think this forum is going to be very successful given some time and the less bickering and more encouragement given by way of suggestions rather than just comments like "I don't get it" or "it does nothing for me". At least have the courtesy to ask the shooter what their intention or goal was.
One way to bring interest to the different forums would be to create a forum called "SHOT OF THE WEEK" and let the mod from each forum post their favorite, or most successful post, of that week. It would be a quick way for folks to scan what is going on in other forums (we don't all have time to see it all...) and perhaps generate some interest.
I have to say, I am thoroughly disheartened by all this. Given the number of great photographers that there are on all of Dgrin's forums, it perplexes me that anyone should become offended if a post is moved from one forum to another--or not moved, for that matter. Is it really all that important, guys?
It is when a poster knows where he/she is posting and why it is being done,...... if said poster says i don't know if this is right place....then there is a clear option for moving......but no mod should anoint him/herself ( feels god like) and move any post without confering with the poster as to why a post was placed....when you confer, it is just showing respect for the poster knowing what they are doing.......other wise it is just like a slap in the face and saying in very large bold letters you don't have a freakin' clue do you ..............jmho
Look, we have forums and sometimes sub-forums to make it easier for members to find what they like (and also avoid what doesn't interest them). Ultimately, any classification scheme is arbitrary (do PJ style wedding shots belong here?).
There will always be some ambiguity at the boundaries and sometimes the mods will see things differently than the poster about where something belongs. Sometimes the mods will be wrong, OK? But that needn't ruin anybody's whole day.
It is sure irritating to find that some one thinks they know better than you do without them first confering or a mod that is called on the post move and refuses to move it back to where it actually belongs....that is what causes people to quit posting and move to other forums..................
As my title states I have alot of respect for most mods and Richard is one of them............rest is above in Arial Black ..............
just my 'umble opinon...............
I have to say, Art, that the way you put your own words in Richard's quote is confusing, difficult to read and could mislead anyone who's not aware of what you're doing.
Please, in the future, use quote and /quote tags to break up a longer quote you want to make comments on. It's certainly no more difficult than formatting your words in a different font, and is much more helpful to the rest of us.
I have to say, Art, that the way you put your own words in Richard's quote is confusing, difficult to read and could mislead anyone who's not aware of what you're doing.
I am sorry you ahve a prob with discerning the differce between my post and Richards....however I have been doing this ever since I 1st signed on to DGRIN....so it was nver aprob until NOW!!!!
As I see it it is not just a problem with my interposting my words with in the posters post.....but to to whom it was done.........
Please, in the future, use quote and /quote tags to break up a longer quote you want to make comments on. It's certainly no more difficult than formatting your words in a different font, and is much more helpful to the rest of us.
As stated above I have done this from day 1 and it has never .....NEVER EVER been a prob!!!!!!! NO ONE HAS EVER COMPLAINED!!!!!! i am feeling personally attacked now...................
Thanks.
EDIT: Art, I just went ahead and cleaned it up.
all comments are above in ARIAL BLACK...........others do it and they do not change the font, maybe they do not know how, other just use italics and it is left alone..........it is just telling me that my style is wrong in photography......it is a personal style and it is not wrong!!!!!
I do not have the time to try and break down each post I post inside of...it is a time thing...........I guess if I hit reply with quote and it automatically broke down the post then I would do it............
Art: our mods here are hard workers, tireless and do thankless work for nothing other than the joy of helping to maintain order in this place. They always try to do the right thing and they should always notify if a thread is moved. But they do not need to seek permission to do so. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I am explaining how things are done.
Comments
PERFECT!!
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
I don't care for #2 at all, but #1 is really good. And #1 fits PJ. You are recording an event and capturing a real emotion, even if it is mugging for the camera.
I don't disagree with either point however when any picture is so closely cropped to show only one face with no other contextual reference it is a portrait, candid or posed, nothing more.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
If that is the case then you need to move PJ to it's own forum. Many PJ (and Documentary) shots happen at the kitchen table.
And that may be part of the confusion. Many of the images that people are calling street or PJ seem like creepy stalker shots or FBI surveillance pictures. Maybe a better thread to start is to properly define Street, Photojournalism and Documentary using examples and discussion.
Part of the reason I asked about books is to gain a deeper understanding of PhotoJournalism in particular and Documentary and Street as a bonus.
So, for example, a picture like this
_MG_5396.jpg
Though clearly not a portrait/posed, it doesn't belong here because there isn't enough context. So this, if I were to post it, would go in people. If I had pulled back so the other kids who were talking and goofing around while she did her homework we included, then that would have made it street-worthy, I believe.
I think I have at least a better understanding of where this is going; someone in one post used the term 'candids' to describe a possible future for this forum, but it seems like the 'kids running through the sprinklers' pictures is not what is desireable for this forum, but 'kids interacting in an interesting way' is something. And of course the latter could happily end up in People anyhow.
I think it might be about what sort of feedback you want. Here it is did you capture an emotion, some humor, an absurdity or an interaction and did your framing and technique help tell that story.
Thanks.
Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
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Caroline
I don't disagree with you Angelo. But, that's why I started the post with the comment that I think the definition is in the intent of the photographer, not necessarily in the results. At least as far as this forum goes. Also, the type of feedback provided by everyone here is as much a part of the definition of the forum as are the pictures themselves.
There was a wonderful series posted here a couple of weeks ago of a family discussion with sitting at a cafe table. Some excellent stuff. Was it "Street" or "PJ" in the literal sense? No, but I certainly think it belonged in this forum.
So back to the original question. Yes, I think the forum is working better after this thread. Just look at the passion.
Tina
www.tinamanley.com
www.tinamanley.com
I said this in Makemeshutter's post which got moved to "Technique" I think--anyway the post got moved out of PJ-
I think street/PJ should not discount people living in non urban enviornments. There are plenty of small town people that can post great "story telling" shots in this forum. Someone posted a photo not too long ago of a bunch of men crowding around a truck with the hood up--I thought it was such a great PJ shot--that photo would have not gotten responses in people--People weather you like it or not has now turned into "posed". As Tina says, they are about the lighting, and the posing and the photoshop, and senior shoots and baby shoots and maternity shoots --all posed. I'm not looking down my nose at people as I like to post there too and I'm learning quite a bit, but I wholeheartedly agree that candids and especially documentary belong here as they are not posed.
BTW michswiss--that was my post--family at the diner one--Thanks
_________
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
But if you titled it "Takin the SATs" I'd say it belongs here since it is recording an event and is PJ.
There are many definitions of the types of photography supposedly covered by this forum.. PJ is just one element. There have been many discussions on the subject and, if one thing is clear, there is no clear consensus on where to draw the boundries. This has been true from day 1.
For the life of me, I can't see why Diva's set of her daughter is more worthy of being posted in this forum than MakeMeShutter's fisherman. (This is NOT a comment on the merits of the photos, all of which interest me at some level or another.)
What if the fisherman had been a Laotian fishing in the Mekong? How would that be different? Or would it?
I'd so much rather have each poster decide where to post photographs for comment. Like the other forums, a general consensus of what interests the participants will develop. Many of the folks in the People forum certainly made it clear that certain types of people photography leaves them cold.
I understand that the mods are trying to do their best to make the forum and dGrin operate smoothly for the benefit of all involved. Their efforts over the years have been phenomenal - all the more so because they are unpaid volunteers.
I just hate to see the emergence of an elitist attitude toward people who dare to post something here. (I'm thinking of the requirement by some that a PJ photo be newsworthy to all who look at it and insisting that the photographer defend it on these grounds. Can not a photo be considered PJ or documentary even if the effort falls short of a viewer's expectations? Like a portrait where the lighting doesn't work or the pose is unflattering?)
The creation of this forum seemed to me to be an opportunity to engage in dialog with folks who are more into communicating emotion and real moments in life with their work than in technical perfection (though having both in a photo has gotta be the greatest as some of the posts have shown!). It felt welcoming, if a bit daunting in its goals.
I have found to my chagrin in recent days that instead of making me feel that there is a place for my work, I'm going to have to analyze carefully to be sure that what I post fits the mainstream view of what belongs here or suffer the indignity of having the picture moved to another forum where the interest in it will be even less. (I'm not saying that having a post moved is always bad, only that this has, in my view, happened already to at least one poster and I can't figure out how to be sure to avoid it.)
What is the harm in going with the more inclusive view of the forum expressed by some of us while we are growing and letting the issues define themselves along the way. We will all learn from it and eventually, like the People forum, some types of photos will simply fail to engage the group and the poster(s) will search elsewhere or go to other sites.
For me It is not enough to say that the point of posting one's work is to get critique so what is the difference in which forum the critique is given.
Forums matter because it invites critique from other photographer's whose work you admire and respect.
It matters because over time people get to know each others' work and ambitions. They become friends in photography. They help each other grow. The Wedding forum is a good example (though, I grant you that defining what is included is a lot easier there than here). Even the People forum has a core of good friends who support and applaud each others' growth.
Sorry for the long rant. I'm just feeling so disappointed and sad about this development in our young forum.
Virginia
"A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Email
Look, we have forums and sometimes sub-forums to make it easier for members to find what they like (and also avoid what doesn't interest them). Ultimately, any classification scheme is arbitrary (do PJ style wedding shots belong here?). There will always be some ambiguity at the boundaries and sometimes the mods will see things differently than the poster about where something belongs. Sometimes the mods will be wrong, OK? But that needn't ruin anybody's whole day. We are just getting started on this forum and it's OK if the ground rules are still a bit fuzzy.
Oh, and BTW, in this mod's opinion, PJ-style wedding shots belong in the Weddings forum.
No offense intended, Richard, but why is this thread still in the Street & PJ forum? Shouldn't it have also been moved to Wide Angle? How does a thread about the merits of a forum fit a "shots forum" any more than a thread about its content? Again, I don't mean any offense, but why the double standards?
Because it's just too much work to be consistent, mainly. What's obvious to you might not be obvious to me, and someone else might actually have a completely opposite view. I just go with my gut. I can't get too worked up about where a thread belongs, though. If you are only looking at one forum on Dgrin, you're missing a lot.
I'm glad somebody made this point. I posted my shots because it was mentioned somewhere (I can't now remember which thread or by whom) that certain kinds of candids could fit well here and "newbies" to this forum were encouraged to post and join in. So I did
However, I did start to think about this and I wonder where that line is: as my own child, those could well be People but if I'd taken them (equally unspotted by the subject) at a park, with the subject a stranger... then I would for sure consider them fodder for this forum. Where's that line?
Not trying to fan the flames, pour oil on troubled waters or any other cliche you can come up with, just musing.
Btw, I think it is EXCELLENT to have a separate forum - the gritty nature of a lot doc/pj/street/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-that-isn't-formal-portraiture-or-pretty-pretty-stuff has in the past, I've noticed, pushed some emotional buttons when posted in People, and not always happily. I think by having those shots separated, it gives a freer voice both to the photographers to share "difficult" images, and the commentators to respond in kind.
I do most definitely think this forum is worth sustaining, and I hope the friendly bickering about definitions isn't going to poison the waters - I like it here, even if I'm more usually a lurker....
Caroline
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Shawn, you're right. That would not be helpful at all. That's why the mods don't do that.
What we do is our best to run a forum that's fun, convivial and educational. Like I've said before, you may not agree with our decisions all the time, but I do think that you'll find that our hearts are in the right place and our efforts are well-intentioned.
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You posted it in the Macro forum? I'm confused. Your example above about moving from Macro was what I was referring to.
Yes, we move posts. No, you won't always agree with what we do. We're doing our best.
Beyond that, if you're hear to shoot, learn, and have fun, then let's do it!
EDIT: Oh, I see, you were making an extreme case to make a point. Well, we wouldn't move a macro shot to people, but we may move a shot from Street to People, or vice versa. You see, one instance is an extreme bordering on the ridiculous, and the other is a reasonable move that you may disagree with.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
"First, street photography is, by and large, people photography - Yes, there are some street images where the urban landscape is the subject. But by and large, street photography is candid photography of people in a public environment; it's more about an ethos, a look, a feel, than it is about urban or 'street' per se.
Second, there is so little candid photography in "People" that allowing it in here is hardly going to turn this into "People." A candid captured moment at a kitchen table is a lot closer to "street photography" than it is to what's in the "People" forum. And, let's not forget that "documentary" is supposed to be included in here, and what is that but candid photography, usually of people?"
Tina
www.tinamanley.com
www.tinamanley.com
Got it. Moving on.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
If I were a mod, I would be moving these photos for one purpose only and that would be so that more people could enjoy them and they would get the exposure they deserve. So, Shawn, do not feel that the mods are being elitist and disapproving of your work....they are only trying to do what they feel will bring the most exposure to your post. If, however, (like me) you are trying to learn more about street/pj photography, then say so in your post and ask the viewers what is working for them or what isn't working and why? That should pretty much solve your problem, as long as you are open to criticism!
I have been mostly lurking, posting a comment or two if something really moves me. At the moment I don't feel I know enough about the styles to be too critical and I don't believe in being critical unless you can offer some solutions for growth at the same time. I have been looking for a new direction to take my photography towards, and I think I may have found it! Give me some time to shoot (my biggest problem is time!) and I hope to join you all. I think this forum is going to be very successful given some time and the less bickering and more encouragement given by way of suggestions rather than just comments like "I don't get it" or "it does nothing for me". At least have the courtesy to ask the shooter what their intention or goal was.
Great idea, Susan. I support it entirely.
It is when a poster knows where he/she is posting and why it is being done,...... if said poster says i don't know if this is right place....then there is a clear option for moving......but no mod should anoint him/herself ( feels god like
It is sure irritating to find that some one thinks they know better than you do without them first confering or a mod that is called on the post move and refuses to move it back to where it actually belongs....that is what causes people to quit posting and move to other forums..................
As my title states I have alot of respect for most mods and Richard is one of them............rest is above in Arial Black ..............
just my 'umble opinon...............
I have to say, Art, that the way you put your own words in Richard's quote is confusing, difficult to read and could mislead anyone who's not aware of what you're doing.
Please, in the future, use quote and /quote tags to break up a longer quote you want to make comments on. It's certainly no more difficult than formatting your words in a different font, and is much more helpful to the rest of us.
Thanks.
EDIT: Art, I just went ahead and cleaned it up.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
all comments are above in ARIAL BLACK...........others do it and they do not change the font, maybe they do not know how, other just use italics and it is left alone..........it is just telling me that my style is wrong in photography......it is a personal style and it is not wrong!!!!!
I do not have the time to try and break down each post I post inside of...it is a time thing...........I guess if I hit reply with quote and it automatically broke down the post then I would do it............
Art: our mods here are hard workers, tireless and do thankless work for nothing other than the joy of helping to maintain order in this place. They always try to do the right thing and they should always notify if a thread is moved. But they do not need to seek permission to do so. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I am explaining how things are done.
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