Help! canon 7d not sharp, is it me or the camera?

wheresdavid

I purchased a 7D about 3 or 4 weeks ago right before I left for Asia. I purchased it based on the reviews I read on it and also based on seeing some of the absolutely tack sharp photos that were taken with it. Unfortunately before I left I really didn't have time (ie 3 days) to give the camera a good "work over" and now I am "discovering" that the photos that I have taken with this camera don't look "sharp". I use lightroom to convert my RAW files and know Adobe doesn't have a good "converter" yet so I am using Canon's DPP to convert the RAW files and I admit I don't really know how to use it so I am hoping that the problem is "me" and not the camera. With that said though, when I compare shots taken with my 40D and the new 7D in DPP the 40D shots are definitely sharper, a lot sharper. I also have found that shots taken with my 70-200 4.0 non IS in bright light are fairly sharp but shots taken with my 24-105 aren't sharp, at best some are soft. I do use filters on both lenses and I will take some photos soon without the filters.

I have researched a bit on the internet and have found various articles about some 7Ds having focus issues and I am wondering if I have one of the said cameras. What can I do to tell if it is the camera or me causing the "problem"? I'm in China now and I may be here for up to a year so I hope it is me and not the camera. I am trying to upload some examples of what I mean by "not sharp" but i am having problems doing so (not sure if it is the great dragon firewall or something else). I'll continue to try to upload but based on what I said above do you have any suggestions?

As always, thank you for your help.

David

ziggy53

The 7D has a micro-focus adjust per lens capability that the 40D did not have. Have you tried that?

Here is the link to Scott's tutorial (50D but should adapt to the 7D):

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1004190&postcount=1

wheresdavid

No I haven't, I'll give it a try. If I adjust it, will it affect the way the lens works on my 40D? I still not able to upload examples but will be going to a large city later today and hopefully the internet there will be faster.

thanks

ziggy53 wrote:

The 7D has a micro-focus adjust per lens capability that the 40D did not have. Have you tried that?



Here is the link to Scott's tutorial (50D but should adapt to the 7D):

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1004190&postcount=1

ziggy53

wheresdavid wrote:

No I haven't, I'll give it a try. If I adjust it, will it affect the way the lens works on my 40D? I still not able to upload examples but will be going to a large city later today and hopefully the internet there will be faster.

thanks

The micro-adjust is a camera body specific function. It does not affect the lens at all. Each body that allows would be individually adjusted.

It is meant to adjust for the minor variations from body to body in AF calibration. While each lens is also subject to variations, this compensates for (potentially) both lens and body variations by allowing micro-adjustments and remembering, by the lens, what adjustments to make. (If you have 2 identical lenses however it cannot distinguish between them.)

Scott_Quier

ziggy53 wrote:

The 7D has a micro-focus adjust per lens capability that the 40D did not have. Have you tried that?

Here is the link to Scott's tutorial (50D but should adapt to the 7D):

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1004190&postcount=1

The entire thread starts here. I've posted an update to my process here. I've found this to be a bit more consistant and repeatable.

My belief is that the AF Microadjustment is an attempt to compensate for the slight differences between camera bodies and the differences between one lens and another. To get a sharp image, the AF mechanism has to right ("calibrated") for a given lens/camera body combination. The calibration amount will be different for each and every camera/lens combination.

As Ziggy has noted, there are no changes made to the lens. It seems to me (and I'm as likely to be wrong as I am to be right) that the AFM feature electronically adjusts something in the camera body to match the length of the lens-sensor light path to that of the lens-AF mechanism light path.

wheresdavid

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate the help. Hopefully I will be able to give it a try tomorrow using Scott's old version, a tree trunk in a park in China. I hope this will "fix" the issue. I just looked at the photos from a minority market I went to yesterday and again not one "tack sharp" photo from the 7D (I only shot with my 70-200 on the 7D).

NeilL

Micro adjust is meant for fine tuning AF in the case of very slight forward or backward misfocusing. It is not meant to fix major problems deriving from manufacture. For those, the camera and lens have to be returned to the manufacturer for optical bench calibration. In your case, I would not hesitate too long to be corresponding with Canon and making arrangements. You would be without your gear for a few weeks, bad yes, but then the problem would be behind you.

Seems to me.

Neil

wheresdavid

I did Scott's # 1 test today (ie using a tree) and the best images were with an adjustment of 0, ie no adjustment. When I looked at them in Canon's DPP with sharpness set to 0 they all (ie -20, -15, -10 ...) looked soft or out of focused. When I set the sharpness to 10 in DPP then the photos with 0 or +1 or +2 looked tack sharp (for tree bark). I did take some hand held "portraits" of someone with focus on their eye and again the eyes were "soft" when I looked at them in DPP with sharpness set to 3. All the shots I am referring to were taken with my 24-105. I hope it hasn't gone soft on me, I haven't taken any portraits with it recently

I still am not able to upload photos to Smugmug or attach them to an email. I will try to crops some photos to make them smaller and try to upload them so you can see what I am talking about. Maybe it is me, but if it is the camera I have a problem because I am traveling and may not be put for a month or two and when I do settle down it will probably be in either China or Vietnam and the camera only has a USA/Canada warranty and then who knows if they can "repair" in China or Vietnam. If I have to send it to another country it will probably cost me a few hundred dollars to ship it and then maybe a few hundred more for duties when it is sent back to me and it could take a month or longer.

Richard

wheresdavid wrote:

I did Scott's # 1 test today (ie using a tree) and the best images were with an adjustment of 0, ie no adjustment. When I looked at them in Canon's DPP with sharpness set to 0 they all (ie -20, -15, -10 ...) looked soft or out of focused. When I set the sharpness to 10 in DPP then the photos with 0 or +1 or +2 looked tack sharp (for tree bark). I did take some hand held "portraits" of someone with focus on their eye and again the eyes were "soft" when I looked at them in DPP with sharpness set to 3. All the shots I am referring to were taken with my 24-105. I hope it hasn't gone soft on me, I haven't taken any portraits with it recently

I still am not able to upload photos to Smugmug or attach them to an email. I will try to crops some photos to make them smaller and try to upload them so you can see what I am talking about. Maybe it is me, but if it is the camera I have a problem because I am traveling and may not be put for a month or two and when I do settle down it will probably be in either China or Vietnam and the camera only has a USA/Canada warranty and then who knows if they can "repair" in China or Vietnam. If I have to send it to another country it will probably cost me a few hundred dollars to ship it and then maybe a few hundred more for duties when it is sent back to me and it could take a month or longer.

David,

Without seeing some example pics and EXIF data, it is hard to say what the problem is. If you are having problems linking or attaching pics because of the Great Firewall of China, you might try emailing the samples to me and I will put them in a private SmugMug gallery and post them here. First, make sure you are following the directions here: How To Post on Dgrin
If that doesn't work, send me a PM and I'll send my email address. Please make sure that EXIF data is included in the files.

Ric Grupe

OOF or not sharp? Two different things.

I went from a 40D to the 7D and wanted to throw the 7D away at first.

DPP sucks IMO so I was trying to convert in ACR which really didn't fully support 7D files. The RC update for lightroom can be found here. The ACR version which I assume is the same as the LR version does a much better job with a higher degree of control than the previous version.

The 7D files can take a lot more sharpening than 40D files in my experience. I'm talking about while open in the raw converter. I found that using spot af for static subjects really helped.

wheresdavid

Good point, I think now the shots are soft, I was having some oof "issues" but I think they were caused by me. I will try to look at the lightroom update when I have a chance. I'm going to sleep and then I'm catching a train early in the morning and might not have internet access for a few days. I am trying to email some photos to smugmug help and I'm asking them to put the pictures in this gallery:

http://www.fotosbydavid.com/Other/7d/10483977_zixpv

Hopefully it is just a matter of learning how to process the images "correctly". I did see that I took a few portraits using my 24-105 with a 270Ex (?) flash and they were sharp. nice shot by the way.

Cheers,

Dave

Scott_Quier

I'm not sure about #1 or #3, but I think I see camera motion blur in #2, particularly in the beads near her left ear.

With the 7D, there's no need to limit your use of the higher ISO capabilities. If you are hand holding, even with the IS of the 24-105 engaged, I would boost the ISO to at least 400 and maybe even 800 to get good shutter speeds. The SS on #2 is only 1/50s ... it can be done at that speed, but it's so much easier at faster shutter speeds.

NeilL

I think I see front focusing on #s 1 & 2, DOF is already being lost further back than 1cm in front of the nose, which is crazy for f4. In #3, I can see nothing sharp. I note that the focal length is shorter for #2, which has the most area of comparative sharpness, than the other two, which are pretty equally fuzzy and have the same focal length. I think there is a relationship between DOF and focal length, but someone else might be better able to follow that possible clue.

These were taken with the 24-105 handheld? You must have been quite close to the women. Slow shutter speed and closeness increase the effect of camera shake/motion blur, and of course IS only corrects the former.

I think I would need to see samples with other lenses and focal lengths, as well as with tripod and a stationary subject.

Neil

CookieS

Is 7D full Frame? If so people forget that the full frame sensors act a bit different for DOF and open aperatures. also have you seen any jpgs to test and see how they look. many rAW files look soft to me.

Ridgetop

CookieS wrote:

Is 7D full Frame? If so people forget that the full frame sensors act a bit different for DOF and open aperatures. also have you seen any jpgs to test and see how they look. many rAW files look soft to me.

It's a crop sensor.

ziggy53

Ridgetop wrote:

It's a crop sensor.

Correct.

Specifically the Canon 7D is an APS-C sized, crop 1.6x factor. (Canon also has APS-H sized, crop 1.3x sensors in the 1D series cameras.)

insanefred

You maybe also seeing some limitations of the lens too. The 24-105L isn't the sharpest lens Canon makes, especially wide open. Use flash, bounce it, and get back to us.

wheresdavid

I normally will get tack sharp hand held portraits with "slower" shutter speeds with the 24-105 on my 40D so that is why I included them here. I did have other examples with faster shutter speeds But I randomly chose the 3 that were uploaded. I missed my train this morning so I will take a bus but right now the internet is "fast" so I am able to upload other examples. the one of the tree bark was shot on a tripod but now i can't remember if i turned off the IS. The ones of the man's eye were shot hand held yesterday. i will try to find some photos of other lenses.

pathfinder

Scott_Quier wrote:

I'm not sure about #1 or #3, but I think I see camera motion blur in #2, particularly in the beads near her left ear.[/quote}

I see that too Scott, but her lips seem fairly sharp none the less, if sharpened carefully in ACR, and do not show the horizontal movement artifact present in her earring, do you think?

With the 7D, there's no need to limit your use of the higher ISO capabilities. If you are hand holding, even with the IS of the 24-105 engaged, I would boost the ISO to at least 400 and maybe even 800 to get good shutter speeds. The SS on #2 is only 1/50s ... it can be done at that speed, but it's so much easier at faster shutter speeds.

I agree again Scott.

I suspect the files from the 7D need more sharpening in ACR than many folks are used to using, just like files from a 5DMKII or other full frame cameras.

I think insanefred has a point. A 24-105 IS L is not at its best at f4 either. I would give it a try at f5.6 and f8 for comparison as well, before concluding focusing of the camera body is at fault. At f8, or f11, it ought to perform very nicely, or at least mine has always seemed to do fine. It is my most used lens on a full frame body.

wheresdavid

I will try some test shots at f5.6 and f8 - i guess again I am comparing the 7D to the results I see with my 40D.

I also agree on the fact that the photos probably need more sharpening than I am used to. One other issue is that I only use lightroom and I was having to look at the photos using Canon's DPP which I don't know how to use. I was just able to download LR 2.6 RC this morning (finally!). I usually only shoot with available light but I did upload a few shots taken with a flash and they are sharper (I think though they were all taken with my nifty 50).

The internet seems to be slowing down but I was able to upload a few more examples - These are the best of the best not the "bad" ones.

Again thank you for the help

Dave
ps - I m ay be out of internet range for a few days

pathfinder

David, how do you use the AF points in your camera? Do you use a solitary, single AF point, placed precisely where you want the focus to be in the image, and then not recompose the image but fire the shutter?

Or do you use multiple AF points and let the camera choose one? When I look at the images you have posted, the focus seems better on higher contrast, sharper bordered areas, like teeth, lips, eyebrow hairs, and not on pupils, lid margins, or edges of noses. The AF algorithms on the 40D, 50D, and I'll bet the 7D as well, favor sharply bordered, high contrast areas over softer edged , lower contrast areas like noses, ears, etc, unless you are very precise in placing a single AF point. I call this skill "riding herd on the AF system" All of my cameras require it when I shoot if I want the image to be critically sharp.

Also, when shooting faces at a distance of less than 3 feet ( as I suspect many of your shots are captured ) focus and recompose is a serious no-no. If you focus with the center AF point and then recompose, there will be not insignificant errors in focusing induced by recomposing. If you are shooting at 8-12 feet the errors of "focus recompose" merge toward non-existence.

You are shooting lovely portraits of faces, very tightly cropped with very shallow depths of field and wide open apertures. This style of imaging will demand very precise focusing technique with a perfectly performing camera, a good optic, and very precise placement of a single AF point and then, no further movement of the camera before tripping the shutter with a fast shutter speed. The fact that you say some of your flash-lit images seem sharper, may indicate camera movement is more of a factor than you believe it is.

Here is a link about sharpening in Lightroom by Martin Evening

Here is a link with some suggestions for numbers I use to sharpen in LR2's Sharpening setting in RAW processing.

NeilL

Yes, what Pathfinder is saying above chimes with what I said earlier, that there is something happening between distance from subject, focal length, and DOF, as well as camera or subject movement.

The 3 women shots seem to have been taken in broad daylight, so light intensity and comparison with flash might be ruled out.

I don't agree with the comments about the 24-105 f4 L IS USM being soft wide open. I think I am remembering correctly, that when I went through all the reviews before purchasing one myself, they all commented on its sharpness at f4, particularly on a crop factor body. That has been your experience of it on the 40D, as you again point out. I think we can release the lens from suspicion.

Regarding DPP, I am in agreement with widespread opinion in forums that the latest version needs no apologies. I use it exclusively for RAW to tiff conversion. I have found it the best for that process. I do minimal adjustments at that stage, sometimes adjust WB, style, exposure and chromatic aberration. I always zero the sharpening and NR. I user Nik Dfine2 for NR first step after conversion, if it is necessary at all - it is superb, and sharpening I leave towards the very end of my workflow.

My RAW files (40D) always look soft, but I can judge from them if they are worth processing, ie if correct focus has been achieved, a reasonable histogram, and enough potential to sharpen up sufficiently.

Therefore, I am inclined to concentrate on the things in the first paragraph here, rather than on these other things that have been mentioned.

Neil

wheresdavid

I may need to clear a few things up. I always select one focus point and always place it on the eye of my subjects. I never lock focus and recompose. With the 7D's "spot" focus feature I should be able to place the focus in the middle of the eye and therefore achieve a "better" "focus" than with my 40D. I shoot the same with the 40D and the 7D, my shots with the 40D and my 24-105 are almost always spot on, with the 7D they're oof or soft at best.

I've posted some shots that I have taken recently with the 40D and my 24-105. Sorry the internet is really slow (I'm surprised they even have it in such a small village in China) I was only able to upload a few, here's the link, they are the last few photos in the gallery: http://www.fotosbydavid.com/Other/7d/10483977_zixpv

They are a little softer than shots taken with my 24-105 in the past but still sharper than anything I have gotten with my 7D. So, do you think I have a "problem" with the 7D? I'm not sure what to do at this point.

NeilL

wheresdavid wrote:

I may need to clear a few things up. I always select one focus point and always place it on the eye of my subjects. I never lock focus and recompose. With the 7D's "spot" focus feature I should be able to place the focus in the middle of the eye and therefore achieve a "better" "focus" than with my 40D. I shoot the same with the 40D and the 7D, my shots with the 40D and my 24-105 are almost always spot on, with the 7D they're oof or soft at best.

I've posted some shots that I have taken recently with the 40D and my 24-105. Sorry the internet is really slow (I'm surprised they even have it in such a small village in China) I was only able to upload a few, here's the link, they are the last few photos in the gallery: http://www.fotosbydavid.com/Other/7d/10483977_zixpv

They are a little softer than shots taken with my 24-105 in the past but still sharper than anything I have gotten with my 7D. So, do you think I have a "problem" with the 7D? I'm not sure what to do at this point.

What I suggest you do is set up the 7D in perfect conditions - outside on a tripod in broad daylight, remote release, mirror lockup, your best prime lens in the normal range, absolutely rock steady subject at 10-15 feet, spot meter on a high contrast target, aperture priority set at your lens' best, shoot. That should tell you definitively if your 7D is *capable* of perfection or not. Either way, your course of action will be quite clear.

Neil

pathfinder

wheresdavid wrote:

I may need to clear a few things up. I always select one focus point and always place it on the eye of my subjects. I never lock focus and recompose. With the 7D's "spot" focus feature I should be able to place the focus in the middle of the eye and therefore achieve a "better" "focus" than with my 40D. I shoot the same with the 40D and the 7D, my shots with the 40D and my 24-105 are almost always spot on, with the 7D they're oof or soft at best.

I've posted some shots that I have taken recently with the 40D and my 24-105. Sorry the internet is really slow (I'm surprised they even have it in such a small village in China) I was only able to upload a few, here's the link, they are the last few photos in the gallery: http://www.fotosbydavid.com/Other/7d/10483977_zixpv

They are a little softer than shots taken with my 24-105 in the past but still sharper than anything I have gotten with my 7D. So, do you think I have a "problem" with the 7D? I'm not sure what to do at this point.

I am glad to hear that you agree with me on the importance of shooting technique, and riding herd on the AF system. Some posters are not always as aware of its importance, so please do not be offended by my asking. I looked at your gallery, and left comments on some of your images as well.. like here - http://www.fotosbydavid.com/Other/7d/10483977_zixpv

I felt there was some variability to the sharpest parts of the images as I commented, and I did not know which body was used. I agree with Neil, that if there is a question about the AF system of the 7D, then a camera mounted on a tripod, and a well lit high contrast target should help separate shooting technique from AF inaccuracy. While the 24-105 should be sharp centrally at f4, it will not be nearly as sharp in the corners at f4 at it will be at f8.

If the images with your 7D seem less sharp than your 40D, I would be concerned as well about the focusing accuracy of the 7D. But I would not base that decision on hand held shots at slow shutter speeds shot at 3 feet of low contrast targets.

I did not see if your shots are being captured in RAW or are they straight out of the camera jpgs? Sharpening, either by the shooter in Adobe Raw converter, or by the camera by increasing the in-camera sharpening can help significantly as well, and might explain some of the apparent difference in sharpness of the 40D versus the 7D.

I shoot a lot lately with a Tamron 28-300 Di zoom on my 50D. It is not the sharpest lens in my bag, by far ( much less crisp than my 24-105 IS L say ), but when used carefully, and sharpened carefully in Adobe Raw converter or Lightroom2, I can get very crisp images from it despite its limitations ( Image chosen on the basis of sharpness only! )

Once again, I am in no way trying to criticize your shooting technique. I am aware that shooting live breathing subjects does not always let us be as meticulous as we might prefer in our shooting and focusing. First, get that special moment.

Hopefully some of the suggestions in this thread will help you get this question about AF accuracy resolved. Your portraits are warm and very lovely.

wheresdavid

pathfinder wrote:

If the images with your 7D seem less sharp than your 40D, I would be concerned as well about the focusing accuracy of the 7D. But I would not base that decision on hand held shots at slow shutter speeds shot at 3 feet of low contrast targets. [/URL]

I agree and I am not basing my concern on a few shots taken with slow shutter speeds. I believe I posted a few examples at "fast" shutter speeds where camera shake would not be an issue. Again, the photos I posted are the "sharpest" that I ahve been able to get with my 24-105 without flash.

I always shoot my portraits in the "shade" with available light and not under the high noon sun. This has never been a problem for my 40D and I should guess that it shouldn't be a problem with a 7D. I always shoot in raw and as far as sharpening I was trying to compare the 40D to 7D with the same amount of sharpening in LR 2.6 (about 25) , I now know I need to sharpen the 7D images more. They just called me to breakfast and then I am going to a market to shoot, I'll try shooting on a tripod, but in the real world all my shots are hand held. ps, I will try shooting in single shot AF mode instead of servio to see if this makes a difference

Again, thanks for the input.

David

Nikolai

Sorry, I'm late for the game, but just in case...

1) When I got my first copy of 7D (I think it was one of the first around), it did had some focusing problems. Microadjustment could fix it to a degree, but the fix was inconsistent. Fairly soon I returned it, got a new copy, and this one I have been using with no focusing problem thus far.

2) I agree that default "view" of 7D raws or neutral jpegs is somewhat softer even when looked at the big screen. However, once you pass them through ACR the situation changes drastically. In fact, I find them much sharper and cleaner than any of my previous body (maybe with the exception of 5D2).

3) As a side comment, my understanding is that 24-105/4L IS USM is one of the few lenses that actually start very sharp wide open. It also has been confirmed by my - albeit short, but rather active - personal experience with it.

Just my 0.002...

NeilL

You are not alone!...

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=151894


Neil

LiquidAir

Nikolai wrote:

3) As a side comment, my understanding is that 24-105/4L IS USM is one of the few lenses that actually start very sharp wide open. It also has been confirmed by my - albeit short, but rather active - personal experience with it.

At 105mm and f/4 the 24-105 can be a bit soft. You'd notice it printing 16x24, but probably not printing 10x15. The 24-105 is noticeably sharper at mid to wide focal lengths than it is at 105. In practice most of the sharpness issues I have seen with the lens have been due to subject motion at slow shutter speeds. At f/4 there is enough depth of field that I rarely see problems with focus accuracy.

wheresdavid

Nikolai, would you please explain what your focusing issues were.

cheers - David

Nikolai wrote:

Sorry, I'm late for the game, but just in case...

1) When I got my first copy of 7D (I think it was one of the first around), it did had some focusing problems. Microadjustment could fix it to a degree, but the fix was inconsistent. Fairly soon I returned it, got a new copy, and this one I have been using with no focusing problem thus far

Nikolai

wheresdavid wrote:

Nikolai, would you please explain what your focusing issues were.
cheers - David

David,
it was shortfocuisng about 2 inches, different values for different focal lengths and, most importantly, different focal points, hence the microadjustment couldn't cure it 100%.