Who pays whom for event coverage?

Snowgirl

I've seen this topic discussed from various angles, but I still have questions. Some photographers pay the event organizers a fee or percentage for the privilege of being the 'official' shooter. Some events hire and pay their 'official' photographer a fee or some other compensation in kind (e.g. free display booth space; announcer advertising; program advertising etc.).

Having done events for four years now I'm getting to the point of wanting to run away. To do a horse show, for example, usually means being on site at LEAST 12 - 16 hours a day for 2 or more days. You're on your feet and running most of the time and there's a diminishing return in terms of print sales - particularly among the consistent winners (how many shots of you and old Dobbin with red ribbon does one diva need?).

This year I've decided that I must make at least SOME money on any shoot. So, when a show approached me recently I told them I had a flat day rate plus they had to provide the booth space and announcer ads in exchange for which I would take all of their presentation photos (for their sponsors) and provide the 8 x 10s plus the same photos in low-res for their association website. In turn, I would be the exclusive photographer and have the right to sell to the competitors etc. Haven't heard back from them. It was a low day rate ($100). Any comments?

ChatKat

Attitude
Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

Snowgirl

ChatKat wrote:

Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

Good points. I also try to evaluate individual events based on what I truly need to make (to at least make it worthwhile to be there) and/or what other benefits might accrue.

In two weeks I'm doing a horsey trade show. In that case I have traded my PR skills (that was my first career) for a free booth. I'll be promoting my equine portraits. The event is donating its profits to the Childrens' Wish Foundation so, as a part of that theme, I'm going to raffle off an on-farm portrait session - and give the money to the Foundation. Again, good PR and potential new clients in the database

johng

I would say it really depends on how much you make on sales to competitors. You mentioned 12 hour days. You said your day rate would be $100. So far you'd be working for $8.33 an hour. Here's the reality of sports shooting - sometimes the revenue simply is NOT worth the time.

For example I just turned down the opportunity to be the event photographer for a local HS wrestling tournament. It just won't generate enough revenue to be worth the hassle. Of course awrestling tournament is a totally different thing than the event you're talking about. But, my point is - while I enjoy shooting wrestling, I recognized the situation as a waste of time for the amount of money I was going to make. 12 hours a day for 2 days is a lot of time. Coming out of that with $400-500 might be worth it to some but for me, my weekends are more valuable than that.

PupWeb

From my limited experience this is what works for events.
1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though. The devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste but there is a process to this.

I will write more about my workflow as I get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

Snowgirl

PupWeb wrote:

1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though the devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste.

I will write more about my workflow as aI get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

I so agree that printing on site in close-to-real-time is ideal Unfortunately, I'm a one-woman show at the moment so that's a bit tricky. I did have "office help" at one event last year and that helped with sales - although still not high enough to justify the time spent and the wage paid to the helper.

The $100 a day basically just covers my travel expenses and meals to be on-site. The only 'profit' per se is actual photo sales.

I'm still interested to see how the workflow goes for your idea, David, and also am looking at options for myself as well. Thanks a lot for your comments.

Rocketman766

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote:

For you Snowgirl I would suggest that you will be shooting yourself in the foot to try and do on site printing. Stick to on-site ordering until you at least have another helper and then think about it again pretty hard.
You make money selling not printing.
There is no way you are going to be able to shoot, download, Cull and run the software to show the images, sell and then print and deliver in any way near a timely manner on your own so don't even try.

I made the mistake early in my event photography endeavors of marketing the delivery, not the photograph and excitement, emotion, memory etc people were really buying them for.
I have 4 other people with me when I do events so I do print on site but I now focus on the Picture, not how I deliver it.

I would never even contemplate doing an event unless going into it I was confident I would make some decent money.
I learned many years ago that I can earn nothing sitting on my butt at home in a comfy chair in front of the TV, I do not have to go out and work hard for 12 hours to make nothing.

If you don't think you are going to make money doing an event, Don't do it. Not unless you give up the idea of it doing as a business and are happy to do it for fun alone.

Good points. Thank you. Even at the one event where I had (paid) help, her job was to download, show images and take orders - and that did help ramp up sales - but still not to the point where it was worthwhile on an hourly basis for sure. I think one thing that happens (and these are horse shows, by the way) is that after a while, Suzy Sunshine has lots of pictures of herself and her horse so they no longer mean anything - unless it's a very unique shot (tricky in a dressage environment in a poorly lit indoor arena).

Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments.

Snowgirl

Rocketman766 wrote:

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

True - we did digress from my original question.

In my area there is a trend toward either bartering between organizers and photographers (e.g. the free booth space etc.) or some token payment to the photographer to at least help offset some expenses - in return for which the organizers receive a certain number of images - either prints and/or on CD - usually presentation shots for their sponsors' thank you notes.

Until recently the photographers took all the risk and I even had some show organizers who would whip out with their P&S cameras to grab presentation shots rather than buy from me - how rude is THAT? That's why I've gone to the - you pay me a fixed fee to be here and I'll give you X shots - more available for purchase at additional cost to the show. If they don't want to go for it, I will no longer be shooting their events. Like Glort - I may as well stay home and sip a cool beer in the shade or take more portraits of my dog (an Aussie, by the way).

fredjclaus

What about the types of events that accept a photographer be it paid or you pay them? I have seen many events such as golf tournaments for non-profits, Chamber of Commerce Award ceremonies, and even an upcoming benefit for two children who lost their mother. Do non-profit benefit fundraisers generally pay for an event photographer, or do they look for you to donate your services?

Snowgirl

Brilliant and detailed response Glort. Thanks - and I concur 100%.

After losing money for ages, this is my year to make a profit - or at least not lose. Therefore, I will no longer shoot at events where there's a snowball's chance in hell of making any money.

I'm off to an equine expo on the 23rd. Since a part of my business is PR and Media Relations (going back to 25 years in the industry), I've traded those services to the organizers for a free booth, free logo on the website etc. The attendees at the expo will be both show organizers and competitors. In addition to showcasing my work, I'll be offering a new "special". A pre-book package for competitors. i.e. You pay me $X up front to ensure that I attend (show name) and shoot your ride. I haven't work the details out yet, but I know that with what I have in mind I will need a minimum of 10 pre-bookings to make it worthwhile to show up.

For the competitors, the benefit is that they KNOW I'll have shots of their ride for them. Normally, if you're shooting the whole show, it's hit or miss to get shots of everyone - particularly good or usable shots.

I'll let you know how it flies (or not).

No - I will not pay for the privilege of losing money and spending time. It has to be expense-free to me (i.e. the small day rate to cover travel and meals) AND have some other 'perks' (free booth, advertising etc.) or I will go out and shoot some lovely landscapes on my own time. Or spend time with my animals, husband (no no - he's not an 'animal') and friends!

PupWeb

I don't think this topic Strayed, it's about..
I don't think this topic Strayed, it's about making money. If Snowgirl was making money she wouldn't worry about changing her current business plan.

Glort: The size of the pint has nothing to do with quality. The trend has been moving away from larger print sizes to smaller prints that can scrapbook and also digital delivery is going to be the future so get ready(those digital frames are getting bigger and cheaper). Adding the border is done in less than 5 seconds and can be done conmpletely automated. Adding personal info of the event to the border takes longer about 15 seconds but is not done until a sale.

Things to emphasize again:
You have to offer something they can't get with their P&S. I am not familiar with horse events but try to put yourself in Jane Does shoes, probobly the one stealing your shots.
What would make them buy my print?

Also I price to encourage multiple sales like $7.00 for one 4 x 6 and $4.00 for duplicates. People have told me they would pay up to $15 for a 4X6, depends on your market. If you get the first part right people will buy.

Your biggest problem will be handling the orders. That is a big kink I am working on currently.

I do bring my own lighting b/c that is half the battle to a great shot. These are strobes with unbrellas (what ever you need for the subject matter)alienbees radios to trigger. No one steals my shots...this way. Also prearrange this with the event coordinator. When people see your mobile studio they are curious about getting their photo and seeing how they look.

I have people all the time tell me at first they are not interested b/c I took my own or I have it on video and end up buying prints.

Just think about how to offer something the P&S'r can't do. Jane Doe has a nice Powershot and is pretty good at using Google Picasa, what can't she do that I can?

PupWeb

Glort wrote:

I'm in a totally different ballpark to most here because Event photography in oz, particularly onsite printing particularly for sports is still a .......
YOURSELF that the event will be a success rather than take the organizers word for it. If you have any doubts, put them to the test by at least sharing the risk such as them making up a shortfall in sales to your minimum rate and if they won't come at that, I walk away.

Awesome advice Glort!

Snowgirl

You guys are awesome! Glort - such detailed and thoughtful replies. Ditto PupWeb - good comments and suggestions.

Lighting at a horse show is a problem - there's no static set-up; it's moving targets, normally in a poorly lit arena (poorly lit for photography purposes, I mean). And there may be an issue using any kind of flash set-up, even remote. If a flash caused a horse to spook, someone could get seriously hurt - and the photographer banned quickly

I'm going to a trade show next week-end (equine) and many show organizers AND competitors will be there. i've printed off 20 x 30 posters of some of my best shots for display and will be running a digital slide show on a 40" monitor as well. One of the things I'm going to try is "personal paparazzi" - i.e. pre-book me (and pay a virtually non-refundable 50% deposit up front) and I'll shoot YOUR rides. This should work well for both dressage and reining, and would also work for show jumping. Could be done in pleasure and halter classes but BORING.

I'm offering 3 packages - different combinations of prints in each and different numbers of 'rides' per day - and of course they can always buy other prints / sizes / finishes if they wish. I'll see what kind of response I get from the idea.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote:

I think The pre-pay model is an excellent one!
It allows you to cover more rings and shoot the people that want pics instead of wasting your time busily shooting the ones that don't.

My problem is with it that I can't get my head around an efficient way of getting the people to sign up at the events I do which are always bit of a bun fight at the start. I'll have to work on it but because I think I could improve my sales using this method.

Trade shows are Gold mines if you work them right.


Would you care to tell us your packages so we can tear them apart?

YOU are a gold mine of help. Thank you so much.
Sure, I'll fess up to my packages (so far - they're a work in progress before show season actually starts in May - launched at another trade show the first week-end).

My theme is 'hire your personal Paparazzi' and, at the moment I'm offering 3 packages - aimed at either Reiners or Dressage Riders - other packages to be developed.

"Walk" includes shooting 2 rides on one day, rider to receive 2 5x7 prints and 10 4x6 prints for $80.

"Trot" includes 2 rides per day on 2 days, 1 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $140

"Canter" includes 4 rides per day over 2 days, 2 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $180

Obviously other sizes are available at additional cost Suggestions? Critiques? I also like the idea of pre-book and get a credit toward a big print. May try to incorporate that somehow as well.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote:

I think I have illustrated my bias with Smaller print Sizes but that aside, I find it a bit hard to come to grips with multiple print sizes in this market having never done it.


I have considered making it one or two large prints, but a lot of people use them for Gramma gifts or scrapbooking.

I like the Theme of your promotion, I think it will strike a good chord with the riders.

Thanks. I think it will work in that respect - once I get the packages fine tuned.


I'm not sure if I have this right but your selling your services to no particular show and hoping you get 10 bookings per show to make it worthwhile?
If that is the case, Have you thought how you are going to get that number if you don't get them through the show?
I don't know how many riders you get at the shows you do but that would be an ask for the ones I do in that I'm likely to bookings for 10 different shows and to get 10 for each one would be a feat I think. Might be different for the numbers you get.

Also, in your multiple day shoots, are these one show or can they use them over multiple shows? I'd certainly be making them 1 only and also limiting the area you cover although that could limit the bookings you get when they could be worthwhile for major shows. Perhaps drawing up a list of the shows you are going to cover could be worth while.

My flyer actually specifies the shows I'll be covering. Most of the shows are 2- or 3-day events and the flyer specifies (in the case of 2-day shoots) that it's 2 days at one of the specified shows. Now, for an EXORBIANT price I'd be HAPPY to be someone's exclusive Paparazzi for a full day :ivar

I think your package pricing is good, it's elevated to my averages ( if they have any relevance at all) but they represent good return for your efforts and that's where you want to be.

The only suggestion I would make given my bias to print size's is to consider dropping at very least the 6x4's and maybe put the images on CD. Cheaper and easier for you and there are benefits you can sell to the clients.

Another package that may be worth considering if you have any demand for them is an all up coverage where you put all the shots taken on the day on disk. CD's are half my sales so may have some appeal to your clients as well.

Also an excellent suggestion. Thanks.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote:

Glad to hear you have the shows Specified. I think that is the right way to go and could save a lot of hassel.

Oh YEAH!

On the subject of Day shoots, I would make that known as well. It's not going to confuse any of your other packages and you might just get a Booking on it. If you get one this year, I'm sure You'll be plenty happy.

I learned some time back that if you want to be seen as the best, You have to Offer the premium service for PR value even if no on takes you up on it for a while.

Something a bunch of my clients were talking to me about last year was a set up group shoot. One lady in the club has a very nice arena set up on her property and was asking me about coming out there to shoot her and her daughter where I could set the Jumps up and stand precisely where I wanted to get the perfect pics.

A friend Chimed in that she would love to come out and do the same to make it more worth my while and about 5 minutes later there was excited talk with a group of about 6 parents all coming out and after I shot them Jumping, I could do some Mini glamor shoots in the old barn on the property of the mothers. That could easy be a day worth $2k for my efforts so I'm going to keep pushing that idea in the right direction.

You could mention a similar deal where they hire you for you day rate and split the cost between them and you'll give them all the pics on CD or whatever prints you think appropriate.
As a non Show day, A couple of these this year would also bump things along nicely.

If you can get some cheap basic B/w flyers printed, it may be worth considering offering this as a separate coverage in addition to the shows?

Yet another good idea. Thank you! I made a decision that this WOULD be the year I finally make some money at this...

Last year I took a course in equine photography which was a huge help (skill-wise) and my practice shoots for that involved two of my riding students and their horses. They live on a gorgeous farm with views to die for so it was obviously a huge sacrifice to go there for a day and shoot with them

They ended up buying several prints for themselves and as Christmas gifts for grandparents etc. The grandmother went to Germany to visit family and took some of her prints with her - for other family members to drool over - and that resulted in a few more orders. Yay! So, there's hope...

Mox

Great discussion!

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day at a show. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

johng

Mox wrote:

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

You absolutely can run into issues. Any event held on private land or where tickets are purchased can enter into a contract with a photographer to ensure they are the only photographer allowed to do commercial photography. They can even go so far as to enforce camera restrictions. The rules change when there is controlled entry (i.e. even when someone is using say community fairgrounds for a show with paid admission). The "your on public property" argument doesn't quite hold up. The law isn't that simple. I can't speak to whether there is a market for what you want to do, and unless a photographer has explicit language in their contract that prevents you from doing what you're doing you'd be on solid ground. But they absolutely COULD have that type of language. So, my recommendation is if you wanted to do that type of thing you need to contact the venue/organization putting on the event and finding out what their contract situation is with an event photographer.

mercphoto

Mox wrote:

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

Snowgirl

mercphoto wrote:

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

What Glort said.

The laws here (in Canada) are similar to those in Oz.

Now, that said, it's a small community and good relationships are important, including with show organizers, competitors and other photographers.

So, what I will do (IF I am successful in selling the Personal Paparazza thing) is - if I am the official show photographer - that's no problem. I just guarantee to capture the contracting rider's turns whereas normally I might not get 100% of the rides.

If I am not the official photographer, then I will go to whomever that is and explain what I'm doing - and that I'm not selling to anyone else other than my client (i.e. not taking sales away from the official photog.). Hopefully the other photographer would be similarly considerate of me.

The other thing is - the official photographer is the only one allowed INSIDE the competition ring. So, if I'm not the official shooter, I'm restricted to ring-side shots only. Obviously I would have to ensure that my client was aware of that. Who knows - the client might ALSO buy some in-ring shots from the other photographer.

On the legal issue side - Glort is again a wealth of wisdom. We are in the midst of a legal dispute with a neighbour regarding property usage. I have been documenting what the neighbour is doing by taking photographs showing before and after the rape of the land. The neighbour took offense and called me at 8 o'clock one Sunday morning to rip me a new a*shole verbally and threatened to sue me.

Discretion being the better course, I said nothing. But, I did consult with my lawyer who concurred that the neighbour can not sue me just for taking the pictures - even if they're used as evidence in court - UNLESS I trespassed on her property to take them (I didn't and was VERY careful about that) or if I sold them without a signed model / property release (which obviously I wouldn't). Yay!!

Glort's right. You need to KNOW your rights and obligations.

johng

snowgirl - there is a difference between the right to take a photo from your property and the right to take and sell photos at a private event. Again, laws may be different in Canada. But here in the US, the event absolutely can enter into a contract granting rights to be the sole point-of-sale for event participants. That doesn't mean a person can't take a photo. But it means that if tthe person takes and sells that photo it has potential to start a legal chain of events / lawsuits. Your situation of taking photos in your back yard is NOT the same thing. This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

My advice to the OP - consult a lawyer familiar with this type of contract law and it's relation to photography.

johng

and one other note - almost every lawsuit will cost you money to defend. So even if a case is ruled in your favor, you still lose out if you have to go through. So, you're still on your best footing by dealing with the event / venue coordinators and finding out who the official photographer is and talking with them BEFORE the event. As snowgirl mentioned they may not have an issue with it. But if they do, I wouldn't recommend ignoring them and doing it anyway.

Mox

johng wrote:

snowgirl - there is a difference between the right to take a photo from your property and the right to take and sell photos at a private event. Again, laws may be different in Canada. But here in the US, the event absolutely can enter into a contract granting rights to be the sole point-of-sale for event participants. That doesn't mean a person can't take a photo. But it means that if tthe person takes and sells that photo it has potential to start a legal chain of events / lawsuits. Your situation of taking photos in your back yard is NOT the same thing. This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

My advice to the OP - consult a lawyer familiar with this type of contract law and it's relation to photography.

This is my understanding of US event contracts, as well. Thank you all for the additional input.

Snowgirl

johng wrote:

snowgirl - This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

Actually, this topic began about who pays whom - the event or the photographer - and it kind of morphed a bit.

It's a situation that also requires tact and sensitivity when there are two photographers - one official and one contracted by a private client who happens to be a competitor. It can be done - carefully.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote:

Going back a step, only 3 days to go to your Show Snow.

How are the preparations going so far? Have you sorted out your coverages and got all your literature printed?

Be sure to take lots of pics of your setup to show us and let us know how you go with it.

Thanks. It's getting very hectic right now and Saturday will be a zoo! I'm also under contract to the trade show to handle their PR and as such have been heavily promoting the show both in the media to the general public and through private newsletters and other publications to a targeted audience or horse owners of all disciplines. If the weather holds (it's winter here) we should have a phenomenal turnout. I will take pictures and will let everyone know what response, if any, I get to my idea from horse owners.

cdonovan

mercphoto wrote:

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

x2.

Bottom line is, if there is an official appointed for the show, and participants pay anyone other than the official for pictures, that is wrong, regardless of where the transaction is made. (before, during, after the show)

If the official is expected to let another photographer come in, where does it stop? If the exception is made because a photographer has made a deal with someone, why shouldn't then on that merit, any photographer be allowed in to shoot? So now, instead of the original photographer, you have a whole line up of folks shooting. Does that still seem "fair"?

The other thing is - the official photographer is the only one allowed INSIDE the competition ring. So, if I'm not the official shooter, I'm restricted to ring-side shots only. Obviously I would have to ensure that my client was aware of that. Who knows - the client might ALSO buy some in-ring shots from the other photographer.

Being inside or outside of the ring is neither here nor there, especially in dressage and reining, where of course, even the official is not allowed in the ring.

Without it being a legal issue, it goes against ethical business practices. Do you see Home depot employees inside Lowes hounding them to shop with them? No of course not. Both are allowed a level playing field when it comes to advertising and asking for the sale, but when the customer has made their decision, or in the instance of event photography, the committee has hired an official, you move on and try to make sales with the next customer/event.

johng

cdonovan wrote:

Without it being a legal issue, it goes against ethical business practices. Do you see Home depot employees inside Lowes hounding them to shop with them? No of course not. Both are allowed a level playing field when it comes to advertising and asking for the sale, but when the customer has made their decision, or in the instance of event photography, the committee has hired an official, you move on and try to make sales with the next customer/event.

Sadly, this is often a true case - people want to do whatever they can get away with. As a business person you cannot rely on people to be respectful and ethical. That is why it is essential you have a contract with the organizations. Enforcement of restrictions in that contract should be on the shoulders of the event, not the photographer. I've had several - mostly pleasant - discussions with other photogs at events where there was a contract. In all but one case the pleasant conversation was enough. In the other case, after speaking with the non contracted photographer I spoke to the event staff and had them handle the situation. That's how business works. No need for threats, escalated blood pressure or anything else. That's why you have contracts. Because there are those rare people who don't respect these contracts and still believe they are entitled to do whatever they want. In those cases, the event staff handles it. Now, the flip side is - if you didn't do your part and don't have a good contract in place then it's equally shame on you. You don't have much of a leg to stand on to get the event to stop the other photographer from poaching. But again - if you're the event shooter you need to make a business decision when another shooter is there - case in point - I had a contract to shoot a HS swim meet for sale to participants. Another photog showed up and was shooting - we spoke. He was under contract to shoot for the school - his sales were not going to be print sales but just part of his contract to provide yearbook photos. His market and my market were completely different so there was no issue.

johng

Glort wrote:

So how exactly would this be any different to someone with a contract with a specific rider shooting just them at an event where there was another contracted shooter?

They would not be selling to anyone other than the person they had the arrangement with whom having that arrangement would be at best unlikely to buy anything if the contracted shooter especially if they caused them problems in getting what they had already paid for.

It depends on the situation. Part of that situation could involve a discussion with the customer explaining how the contract existed for a long period of time and legitimte photography businesses are aware such contracts exist. And legitimate businesses contact the event and event photog ahead of time. And I'm terribly sorry your photographer acted in a manner contrary to acceptable professional standards - I'd be happy to provide you a discount but I suggest you get a refund from the other photographer as they promised you a service they were not able to deliver. It's very unfortunate that there are people in every business who are unethical.

That's one possible scenario - because in this case it was the 'other guy' who did not follow acceptable professional practices - at least acceptable professional practices in the United States. I can't speak to other countries.

Now - again, things can be different too - a lot depends on the photographer in question. If they come off as arogant then I'll probably be less likely to cut them a break. If they're pleasant and professional then it may not be a problem. BUT, it is also a business decision that sets bad precedant too. So that weighs in. Otherwise next year photographers bring "uncle joe" to get free shots. Or next year said photographer is shooting 3 people instead of one. Of course if the photorapher wishes to complain they have a simple remedy - win the contract themselves.

In the end though - that's why it's important to have the event deal with the photographer. Why? Firist, as the photog you already have a job to do. Second, that's the whole point of a contract - you want the problem to be the event's not yours. Third, if the poacher makes a stink it reflects badly on THEM. People don't like to do business with partners that cause headaches. If you're an athlete and the guy you hired is having an argument with event staff that's a bit embarassing. Certainly if said poacher wants to win the contract next year it won't look to good when reminded what a stink they made.

At the end of the day - respect goes a long way. But if a person is not going to have respect for your contract the best approach is to handle it professionally - just like any other business.

cdonovan

Glort wrote:

So how exactly would this be any different to someone with a contract with a specific rider shooting just them at an event where there was another contracted shooter?

It's different because there was no sale to his clients. The shooter was contracted for yearbook pictures, not to market and sell to the swimmers, exactly the same scenario as snowgirl is contracted to do the PR work for the show facility, but has not been appointed OP for the show.

They would not be selling to anyone other than the person they had the arrangement with whom having that arrangement would be at best unlikely to buy anything if the contracted shooter especially if they caused them problems in getting what they had already paid for.

That's it, as snowgirl says, she's going to arrive at the event and ask/tell the photographer at that time what she is going to be doing. If a contract is in place, the OP does have the right to have them removed from the grounds, if in fact, the agreement states so. So waiting until arrival at the show grounds to ask permission potentially leaves her in a very bad spot with her clients. If she's not authorized to shoot, how will she get the shots? That is not the fault of the OP, and the OP has no obligation to allow the poacher access to the event.

Sorry, that and several other arguments are both silly and impractical.
No one in this scenario is hunting down anyone here or interfering with their work or sales potential.

Sorry, common sense, good business morals and ethics are NOT silly and impractical. Yes, if someone is selling their photography services at an event where there IS an official photographer, that is interfering, that is taking money out of the pocket of the OP.

Some people sure are touchy and over protective to what they see is their exclusive legal and moral rights.

Some people are touchy, with good right, when it comes to maximizing their potential income at an event where they have been contracted to work. Walking in and taking even one penny from that photographer is WRONG.

Next thing will be that some shooters want ALL camera's banned from their " Contracted" events except theirs. I bet that will go down a treat with the parents.

Actually, have you ever been to a major sporting event or concert? I remember a time when going to one of these events meant that the organizers had the right to take away photography equipment if you chose to bring it. I was actually stopped going to a Dallas Stars game, they searched my camera bag and confiscated my long lens. I had no intention of selling anything, but the equipment was there, they had to eliminate the potential. I followed at least one instance in the last few years at a National Arabian show where the photographer/show organizers eliminated poachers by restricting the length of lens that was allowed in the building. So you see this is not unheard of, and not dreamt up by some paranoid event photographer.

cdonovan

johng wrote:

It depends on the situation. Part of that situation could involve a discussion with the customer explaining how the contract existed for a long period of time and legitimte photography businesses are aware such contracts exist. And legitimate businesses contact the event and event photog ahead of time. And I'm terribly sorry your photographer acted in a manner contrary to acceptable professional standards - I'd be happy to provide you a discount but I suggest you get a refund from the other photographer as they promised you a service they were not able to deliver. It's very unfortunate that there are people in every business who are unethical.

That's one possible scenario - because in this case it was the 'other guy' who did not follow acceptable professional practices - at least acceptable professional practices in the United States. I can't speak to other countries.

Now - again, things can be different too - a lot depends on the photographer in question. If they come off as arogant then I'll probably be less likely to cut them a break. If they're pleasant and professional then it may not be a problem. BUT, it is also a business decision that sets bad precedant too. So that weighs in. Otherwise next year photographers bring "uncle joe" to get free shots. Or next year said photographer is shooting 3 people instead of one. Of course if the photorapher wishes to complain they have a simple remedy - win the contract themselves.

In the end though - that's why it's important to have the event deal with the photographer. Why? Firist, as the photog you already have a job to do. Second, that's the whole point of a contract - you want the problem to be the event's not yours. Third, if the poacher makes a stink it reflects badly on THEM. People don't like to do business with partners that cause headaches. If you're an athlete and the guy you hired is having an argument with event staff that's a bit embarassing. Certainly if said poacher wants to win the contract next year it won't look to good when reminded what a stink they made.

At the end of the day - respect goes a long way. But if a person is not going to have respect for your contract the best approach is to handle it professionally - just like any other business.

Right ON.