Some people sure are touchy and over protective to what they see is their exclusive legal and moral rights.
I really, really don't understand your problem at all. If someone has a contract to be an exclusive photographer for a particular event then they really truly do have a legal right.
Well I always think that a rule, idea or practice cuts two ways. If the shooter contracted to the event has a good right to look after their interests and maximize their potential income, does the shooter contracted to the Rider that hired them not have the same good right to look after their potential income as well???
But the rider does not have the *right* to bring in a contractor to the event. Therein lies the problem that you don't seem to comprehend. Its not their event, its not their grounds. The rules are set by the organizer, not the participants.
Can I respectfully suggest that those giving you advice here have been at this game far longer than you and might actually know something you haven't figured out yet?
If it's different there, then the private shooter would have to abide by that the same as if the situation occurred here, the contracted shooter would also have to abide by the laws of the land and what the organizers dreamt up would be of little consequence.
Glort - welcome to business. Events are about business. Promoters don't put on events out of pure good will. It's business. And again as I mentioned at the beginning of this aspect of the discussion - events are almost always PRIVATE even if public space is leased. As such they can set rules - they can set dress code rules if they wish. They can set rules regarding vending (and almost always do control vending because it's lucrative), they can set restrictions about all sorts of things because the LAW OF THE LAND allows them to do so. They can say "you must be a citizen of this state to compete" - and guess what? People that want to compete have to follow those guidelines. Why? Because it is a private event - just because something is open to the public to watch does not mean it is something that occurs in the public domain.
And why do more and more restrictions get added? Two reasons - one, to prevent problems and two to protect revenue. Because events are about business.
Now, as you say - it will be interesting to see if someone from Canada can speak up and say whether Canadian law allows private organizations to set up their own rules for participation and attendance. I would be very surpised if organizations don't have that right there.
I can't fathom your argument.
Its exactly the same. A personally hired shooter would not be there to sell to the contracted shooters clients.
As for the PR thing, I get the impression you have a lot to learn about how the business world works. If she is helping them out with one thing and has built a rapport with the organizers ( smart move) then they are going to look after the person that helps them and anyone that don't like it is only going to alienate themselves.
Hmm, again with the personal references. I have no idea if there is something behind the scenes going on in your part of the world I have no knowledge of but it seems you have some issues that are influencing or motivating your position on the subject.
You state the contracted photographer has the right to remove them from the grounds, Again, going back over what I have already said, My question is DO THEY??
I mean legally and in written verifiable law where Snow ( as she seems your example of prefrance) resides? Here in Oz you could stop them SELLING pics ON SITE but you couldn't stop them. That is the reality of the law. Call the cops and they won't come because the person is doing nothing wrong. Lay a hand on the person or interfere with them going about their legal business and that is a criminal offense and they will come and take you away and charge you. No question.
Now it may well be different in your part of the world but as I said before, you need to verify that rather than stating your impression, desire or belief of the law when in fact it is something different.
If it is the law then Snow would be SOL. If she waits till she gets to the show without finding out her legal rights and then takes the word of someone that wants to invent laws that don't exist to protect their self interests, then I would agree, they are in a very bad position and deserve to be suckered for not paying due diligence to protecting their own interests.
If the law is there as it is here, then a person could bleat and whinge and carry on all they like about ethics and morals and all that self serving guff but I am going to be doing what I am legally entitled to do while you are getting all upset and probably missing the shots you should be getting.
I HAVE done it before and I will do what I am legally allowed to do again.
If someone doesn't like it because they want to make up the rules as to what suits their agenda's, well good luck to you.
In fact of law, the "OP" would have every obligation to allow the Poacher ( Snow again??) access to the event because to stop them would be breaking the law and render them liable to criminal charges if they tried to stop them (her?)
But this is YOUR interpretation based apparently on fears and insecurities YOU have. It may not be the Law of the land or have any basis other than what you feel is the way you want things to be.
If I was to suggest someone break the law, the do good moralists would be all over me like a rash. Why is it then when I advocate obeying the law and doing what you are legally entitled to do within it, people are still getting upset? Is the suggestion that obeying the law is immoral or unethical?
In the case we are talking about here, a Shooter ( Snow or I in this case, myself ( I'm not just going to let her take all the infamy ! )) were to be shooting a competitor on the " Personal appparazzi" concept, then their photographic services would have been pre-sold before the event so they would NOT be selling them at the event at all which would appear by your own definition to be acceptable and within the moral and ethical standards you appear to apply here.
Well I always think that a rule, idea or practice cuts two ways. If the shooter contracted to the event has a good right to look after their interests and maximize their potential income, does the shooter contracted to the Rider that hired them not have the same good right to look after their potential income as well???
I'll tell you this much, I have no problem in looking after my rights and maximizing my earning potential and if someone has issue with that, go talk to the people whom make the laws you don't like because talking to me about it is a waste of breath.
Again, no one would be taking one penny from anyone.
You are working on the basis that if the Shooter ( Snow) wasn't there, the contracted shooter would make a definite and sure sale to them.... and on that assumption, every single other rider at the event as well.
I have only been at this game 6 months and I'm a long way from your part of the world, but in my experience so far, I'm lucky to sell to 25% of the riders at any given event. If you are selling to every rider every time, You better give me your hourly consultation rate because I'm really interested in learning your secrets.
If I were selling to every rider every event, I sure as heck wouldn't be worried about 1 shooter covering one rider that wasn't going to buy from me. I would probably be busy doing a deal with them to help me shoot all these other people so I got a chance to go to the bathroom and get a drink now and then!
I'm sorry, we seem to be talking about different things here. I am referring to the local, mainly amateur club shows who I made the presumption are the people likely to hire a private Paparazzi ( AKA, SNOW).
I agree that major sporting events and concerts are going to be different but that is not what I was under the impression we were talking about here.
In the case of these shows where the competitors are amateurs and with a high percentage of kids comprising the entries of an event, I absoloutley believe it would be a very paranoid and none to smart shooter that would dream up such an idea.
Where I come from, if parents were told they couldn't take pics of their own kids at these events, even the ones that didn't have camera's would pack up and demand an refund from the organizers just on the principle of the matter.
The bottom line here is that every person and every shooter is allowed to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong within the boundaries of the law as far as ethics, principals and all those other lofty notations are concerned.
The people who don't share the ideals of others don't get to force everyone else to their outlook, they have to learn tolerance and to recognize in the free world that's what happens.
Should some people be proactive and original in their business ideas and take advantage of all the opportunities that are legally available to them, then I don't see that as anything other than commendable.
If the other people want to place their financial success on contracts and payments to 3rd parties instead of ensuring they offer an attractive, competitive product that will stand on it's won merit, then that too is their decision and they are perfectly entitled to it. :andy
Again, for their own protection and benefit, I encourage EVERYONE to take the time to find out the laws as they apply to them in their area and in so doing be in a position of power and knowledge to protect and benefit their own interests.
To no know what the law is and allows you to do or not do is simply setting yourself up for a big mistake. It would also be wise as far as I can see to not only find out the law but what these contracts actually do and don't entitle a person to do.
I would suggest they have no where near the authority many give them automatic credit for.
Glort I respectfully disagree to all of your arguements. Your statements show exactly what you don't understand, and perhaps don't care to understand about good business practices, and all the typing in the world won't change it if you are not open to not only reading it, but seeing it for it's value.
You have a lot to learn about event/show photography, ethics and business morals. You might want to be more careful giving out information about a subject you have very little knowledge about yourself.
Anyone can out maneuver their competition, especially when you pull away from good judgement. Harming someone or their equipment, suing or even the threat to sue, is not a way in which I will conduct my business. My business model is driven by what helps me to sleep each night. I've lived long enough to know that there are many people out there that don't care or have values, morals, and ethics to guide them to make the proper decisions in their day to day life, let alone their business. I don't care to be brought down by people that play their games like that in life, nor will I in business.
Glort - yep, I'm talking amateur events. 8-12 year olds. Someone has a soccer tournament on municipal (city owned) fields, they are still allowed by law in the United States to set rules for those that participate and attend. Again, you don't have to like it but that doesn't change the fact the law allows them to set rules. They absolutely can set rules that disallow DSLR cameras. They absolutely can set rules about who is allowed to sell photos and who is allowed field access. Again, the fact you don't like the idea they are allowed to set those rules is irrelevant. They can, and they do. Rant all you wish about how you would like it to be. But your dreams do not a reality make.
Ask snowgirl if the horse shows she's at sets rules and guidelines. I bet they do. I bet it isn't total anarchy where anyone can come, do whatever they want. See if someone can come in and fire off flash photography - it's allowed in public after all. Ask if playing loud music (within the public noise limits) is allowed. I'm sure it is - because as you say, the event has no authority to make any rules for those that attend. I'm sure anyone that wants to is allowed in the ring - after all the event has no authority to make rules. Seriously, if you only step back you'll see just how silly your argument is that organizations have no authority to make rules that limit freedoms participants or attendees would normally have in general public.
I would encourage snowgirl to seek out her answer amongst a like minded group of photographers. There is a community of equine photographers and a forum where her inquiry would be answered immediately without question. Answered by folks who have been in this business for a lot of years. Of course, it might be the answer that she doesn't want to hear. :gone
I would encourage snowgirl to seek out her answer amongst a like minded group of photographers. There is a community of equine photographers and a forum where her inquiry would be answered immediately without question. Answered by folks who have been in this business for a lot of years. Of course, it might be the answer that she doesn't want to hear. :gone
I don't think Snow ever had an inquiry.
She put forward a thought for a business idea and people that felt threatened by it jumped all over her with a lot of moralistic clap trap.
What exactly would " Like Minded" ( whatever that is?) photographers have to offer in this situation. She needs qualified legal advise not more moralistic waffle.
When you want to know what the law is, you seek the advise of the people in that profession not something completely unrelated.
Since my last post I have been looking into the issue a bit more. There is definitely things in that for the Canadian shooters to be aware of!
I would strongly suggest before anyone thinks of having someone else run out of an event they would want to be VERY careful they have their own backsides covered First.
Bit don't anyone take my word for it, spend your own time getting yourself up to speed. Preferably from legal sources rather than other photographers.
BTW cdonovan, you have been very quick to tell others they don't know what they are talking about and make note of the time people have been in business etc in an apparent effort to undermine their credibility.
May I ask your age and how long you have been a full time professional Photographer in this area??
The January Thaw Equine Expo one-day trade show was a smashing success. We were fortunate to have good weather, and clear, dry roads to attendance for this third annual event was at an all time high.
Once I have a chance to rest my aching back and legs (I don't think I sat down once between 7:a.m. and 5:p.m.) I'll post a couple of photos of my booth and fill in the details on the activities and any comments received from potential customers about my Paparazzi packages.
Great to hear you did so well Snow!
There is nothing like the feeling of being completely drained after doing one of those shows but being amazed at how well it went.
Have well earned rest then let us know all about it.
This a comment for a earlier post in the thread. If you want examples of events where photography is highly restricted and banned for most look in to the preforming arts. Dance competitions I attend its expected there to be no cameras, primarily a fear of competitor figuring out the dance moves and using them.
January Thaw Equine Expo
Over $3500 was raised at the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo for the local chapter of the Children's Wish Foundation. This was the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo and the event has grown dramatically in that short time. There were over 50 exhibitor booths (and a waiting list for exhibit space), a series of educational seminars offered throughout the day, and an opportunity for people from across the horse community throughout the province to come together and enjoy a day of camaraderie. Between visitors and exhibitors close to 750 people attended the one-day event.
The only opportunity I had to take photos of the booths was early on in the morning when everyone (including me) was still setting up. Consequently, many of the booths don't appear completely 'finished', but the visitors began coming in well before the 9 a.m. opening time and the flow was steady all day. My photos are in a gallery if you'd care to have a look. Just follow the link.
All said and done, it went well. I ended up with 66 solid contacts out of which 43 are good leads, so I'm quite happy. Also, it was a chance for additional exposure to the group, particularly some stables, disciplines and breed associations.
Although the photo of my booth looks a tad in disarray (in set-up stage), in fact I ended up with many compliments on the quality of my photos and inquiries as to whether or not I'd be willing to travel to different locations to do photo shoots (duh - yes!).
In one case a person wanted me to travel to her daughter's university to take photos of her and her horse. In fairness to the customer, I recommended another photographer who lives within a few miles of the university (it's in another province). Although I was flattered to be asked, I didn't think it would be fair to charge more for travel and expenses than the photos! (If it were a wedding or even a graduation, that'd be different) Plus - for me to do it would take 2+ days when you factor in the travel. I'm sure the person I recommended will do a bang-up job for the lady.
As the A&E commercial says, it was "time well spent".
OH - AND I won the exhibitor door prize of two month's free advertising on the region's most popular equine website!
Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.
It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.
Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you! ivar
Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.
It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.
Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you! ivar
Thanks Glort. And yes, I did develop a new mailing list as well so we're off to the races, as 'they' say
Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.
It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.
Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you! ivar
Other than that, it's all on spec selling to a relatively captive audience just the same as with the sports. My thoughts on making this venture successful are tailoring the product to the market and giving them something that will appeal and be different.
Figure that part out and this should work out well for you!
I so agree that printing on site in close-to-real-time is ideal Unfortunately, I'm a one-woman show at the moment so that's a bit tricky. I did have "office help" at one event last year and that helped with sales - although still not high enough to justify the time spent and the wage paid to the helper.
The $100 a day basically just covers my travel expenses and meals to be on-site. The only 'profit' per se is actual photo sales.
I'm still interested to see how the workflow goes for your idea, David, and also am looking at options for myself as well. Thanks a lot for your comments.
Let me tell you how to get around this.
1) Ask them provide meals for you. (At least one meal a Day. They are usually happy to provide you with lunch)
2) If you are traveling more then three hours away from home ask for a room. (Most times they are housing Judges. They don't mind adding on another room)
3) If you are traveling out of state ask for comp for gas. (.45 cents a mile) A Hotel room and a meal.
I routinely as for this and have not been turned down. In fact it is in my contracts.
Kandie Kingery
__________________ Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
Congrats! Like you said, what a great confidence booster to have success with the first phone call - AND to successfully turn an objection into a sale! Well done and good luck. Can't wait to hear how the golfers react.
You must do a lot different and bigger events than what I do or have even heard of!
Even the biggest international events here would not pay for travel, meals and fuel let alone the little shows we are talking about here.
I think we have a lot less shooters here but even so, there is no way you'd get them to pay you for all that as the higher level events charge the shooter for the priveledge of being there and thee is no way they would pay their expenses for the privilege.
If anyone here was to ask for that, the organizers would simply get another shooter.
Just the same, I'd like to hear how you sell yourself to get what you do and what sort of shows are hiring you. I'm sure there is something many of us could learn from how you are achieving that.
My first show of the season was a whopping ten horses at a All Breed training show. They were more then happy to provide me a meal. (Adding me to their Catering tab or Restaurant Tab)
Last December I did a Show in Loveland Colorado. I was given two meals a day and my hotel room (Along with my assistant) We were also invited to dinner with the BoD.
I have not had anyone turn me down yet. Unless they have another shooter.
Every year between September - January I start sending out Email Blasts to all my previous shows and ask them if they would like me again this year. Right now I have 5 shows lined up for all year. I am working on adding more as soon as I get Schedule conflicts out of the way. I am a one woman show, so I can't be at more then one show on any given day. (I'd love to have an assistant)
I sell between Arena Drag times, Lunch, Breaks and tack Changes. I also have the announcer announcing me all through out the show. I'm personable, friendly and I approach people. I LOVE to show riders a photo I think is amazing right on the camera. (This gets them excited. They get to touch the equipment)
Also if I have time (Usually at the end of the show) I sit down with people and edit their photos with them. They love lightroom and watching dull photos become amazing with cropping and color management. That gets them excited too.
Nine times out of ten I get prime Booth Locations. Tons of traffic. I get advertising space, Announcements in their programs, through out the show and I talk to people. I also give them photos for their websites.
This is also my third year with alot of my shows. I did not ask for compensation til last year and as of yet have not had a problem.
I am not making Fistfulls of money, but enough to make it worth my while. (Though last year was hard)
Kandie Kingery
__________________ Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
I am not making Fistfulls of money, but enough to make it worth my while. (Though last year was hard)
That's the key. After you figure in the cost of insurance/liability and taxes and depreciation on equipment (and the saving for replacement), is the money left over good enough compensation for the hours spent in the effort to shoot, process, market etc. I have to say when I factored all the real costs into the equation, the net income for event photography just wasn't enough to keep me involved. So good for those of you who are making enough profit that it's worth all of it.
That's the key. After you figure in the cost of insurance/liability and taxes and depreciation on equipment (and the saving for replacement), is the money left over good enough compensation for the hours spent in the effort to shoot, process, market etc. I have to say when I factored all the real costs into the equation, the net income for event photography just wasn't enough to keep me involved. So good for those of you who are making enough profit that it's worth all of it.
If you aren't loving what you do regardless of money coming in then you need to look at that. Is it worth the money.
For me it's worth getting out of the house, making friends, meeting clients who will use me for Farm shoots. (Which is where more profit comes in) The shows for me are all about Marketing. If I make money at them Awesome. If I get a free lunch, some new clients All the more awesome.
It's hardly a waste of time.. unless I don't give out a single business card.
Kandie Kingery
__________________ Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
Thanks Snow!
Hopefully you will be able to do much the same for your year of profitability!
Yep, Definitely different types of shows to what I cover!
The only catering at the ones I do is the canteen where you might get a steak sandwich or a hot dog and accommodation is in tents in the carpark or the horse trucks. Mind you, some of those trucks are fitted out waaaay nicer than my house!.... And some of those full size semi's I have seen, I don't think would cost all that much less either! :cry
Your method of working might be beneficial to other people like Snow whom are currently working on their own. I couldn't do my events without help although this year I'm looking at a change of tact in the way I cover and sell them.
With the 2 day events, I'm just going to take my shooter on the first day and take pics. I can format and load them up that night and then on the second day, I'll take the computers and V stations to sell the pics because we never sell anything the first day anyhow.
Interesting the profitability point comes up. The last couple of days I have got the idea to sell my events trailer. Not so much because I don't make money out of it but because I can make money without it.
I'm moving more towards the indoor events ( few indoor arena's here) and setting my equipment up accordingly. It occurred to me that all the equine events I do ( and there will only be abut 10 locations I'll cover this year although most multiple times) have clubhouses that no one other than the scorers really use. I have started on building rolling cabinets to put all my gear in that will require no more setup than open the box, plug in power and a network cable ( and I might just go wireless yet and be done with it) and off I go.
Because I have a large annexe on the trailer and everything has to be untied tied inside and arranged from travel mode to work mode, the trailer takes at least a good 30 Min to set up and always seems a lot longer to pack up. I'm thinking that setting up in the clubhouse with a couple of boxes for the workstation and 2-3 more for the view stations won't take any longer if its not quicker and easier. At very least, once the boxes are in the clubhouse my wife and son will be able to do the rest as there will be no high, heavy lifting like there is with the trailer.
The main benefits of locating inside will be that things like glare on the monitors, wind, rain and dust will no longer be significant problems as they are now. I am thinking of building some square boxes for the Vstations with a monitor on every side so 4 to a stand. I could do them as a flat pack and sit them on tables which would mean I'd have to bring my own extended height tables to put them on or have people sitting down at the Vstations. I don't like the latter idea because people tend to get too comfortable and will fill in their time looking at every shot taken rather than their own and slow down the ability of others to have a look.
The main concern with being inside clubhouses is the lack of visibility to the patrons of the events but I think the people on the circuit work pretty much all know me by now and some investment in banners and extra signage will take care of that. I believe the people interested in buying a pic will find me and the only people I'll miss out on are the tyre kickers.
Due to other work coming on, I'm not sure how many equine events I'll bother with this year anyway so it makes sense to cash in the asset of the trailer and put the money into equipment that will allow me to better work the more profitable markets.
I originally bought a smaller trailer I was going to modify but then a few weeks later the block of flats came along that was pretty much set up for what I wanted so I bought that and have been using it. Because I got the first one at a good price and it was a sound trailer, I kept it and it will be the one I use to transport the cases I'll build the gear into in. Even if I put the same equipment in it, I'm about 600Kg better off on the towing straight away just through the different weights of the trailers themselves.
It's a lot smaller and lighter than the one I'm using now which will be so much better to tow and being a lot lower and aerodynamic, will mean it doesn't feel like towing a parachute. I will line and insulate it inside and if necessary, I can easy work in it with the gear in the cases just as I would if inside a venue. If I end up doing an event where there is no indoor facilities, at worst I can buy a good quality 6x3M marquee for about $300 and work out of that. In some ways, I think that will actually be better than the trailer setup I have now.
Once I get the rolling cases done, I'll do a couple of the horse events and see how working from the clubhouses goes. If there are no unforseen problems, I'll be able to make a space in my long but now full driveway!
Great.Let us know how all of this goes.
I'm lucky in one respect. The venue where I do most of my horse shows has an area that all of the photographers who shoot there use. It's visible from the arena and, because it's the same spot all the time, the regular competitors know to come there to see what's what.
The rolling cart view station sounds good. Lots of luck.
Had a setback today with the charity event I booked.
The organiser pulled the pin because one of the event sponsors ( a media company I think) seem to have picked up on the idea and want to provide pics for the participants themselves.
Such is life.
There are another 2 events on the same day I found so I'll see how I go lining them up. With a bit of luck, I might hook one of those and be busy that day anyhow.
I have started on the cart but progress has been a little slow. With ever day here being 35oC+ and humidity around 70-80%, I have been finding "cooler" things to. I have got the frame built and am trying to think the best way of setting up the monitor and the top of the box.
I'm thinking I can have the monitor under a lid so everything folds down flat or go for something simpler and just pack the monitor away in the box. never seen anything like this around to get any ideas from.
It's rather surprising how much space an inkjet printer requires when you put it in a box. Once you allow room for the paper feed and exit, they take up a fair chunk of space!
Pity about that. But - lesson learned. If a major sponsor is a media company - don't waste your time, eh? Or - try to subcontract through the media company as an alternative.
I saw another version of the cart that had a lift-up top such as you describe - which is a one idea. Or, for safety sake - stick with the original concept and box up the monitor when you're transporting.
Reading this thread, I'm trying to grasp the last few posts, did you mean that the event that booked and then pulled out already had volunteers in place to do the job?
I started my whole equine events business last year though one lead and networked everything else from there, No reason I can't do the same again especially with 12 months experience behind me now! :ivar
The thing with equine stuff, or any niche markets for that matter, is that you have to know them to shoot them. Sure anyone can shoot technically correct, but to really show the horse rider combo, to their fullest potential, you need a background.
He has rung me twice since and appears very interested in my doing another much larger event for them in a few months time.
The organizer is definitely an older gentleman and I believe is quite straight up and not the type to play games. We are still playing cellphone tag ATM so I'll catch up and see what he says.
COOL! It will produce results no doubt.
I have 3 other groups interested atm, one I should hear back from today and the other early next week. I sent another batch of emails yesterday, one got back to me straight away and the others I'll chase up tomorrow.
At this stage I think I have left my run a bit late for many of them but that's OK, it was a rush of blood idea and I'm learning the game as I go even by just talking to them. The guy that cancelled seemed to be unaware that I would attend the day for nothing. That taught me something in itself and I went back and modified my letter and put that right in the headline as well as made mention in 2 other places.
I won't have anyone under the wrong impression of what it will cost again.
Good point. Cost is ALWAYS a factor with event organizers - particularly when they're charity events. Good to clarify and reiterate a few times!
The events further out seem harder to find but once I start building some rapport with the event managers I hope most of the work will come to me and my prospecting time can be greatly reduced.
Event schedules are always hard to access - and more importantly, the contact folks. I get a titch frustrated when dealing with committees - especially when they're chaotic. I'm a firm believer that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. It's hard to find out who can make decisions - and when!
I completely Disagree if you are saying that you need a knowledge of the sport or interest itself.
It certainly wouldn't hurt but the value is limited.
What I know about horses could be written in the top left hand corner of a postage stamp in 12 point and while I don't pretend to be the best equine shooter in the world by any means, the way to improvement of my work is through technical means rather than a better knowledge of horses or the sport of SJ, dressage or any other discipline.
One thing I will blow my own trumpet for is an ability to learn.
When I started out ( and to this day) I am always asking people questions about my work. Do they like them, is that what they think is the best position of the horse, do they like that angle..... You soon get a general consensus of what to do and what people like ( IE, are most likely to buy) and while I get a lot of compliments on my work, the only horse I have an ability to ride is my iron one with " Harley" on the gas tank rather than the flesh and blood kind.
Conversely, there are a number of parents that are very well equipped with camera gear at these events and most of them are in my " Best customers" group.
Of course if we then look at making a business from photographing these sports and events, then knowledge of the sport takes a back seat to ability with a camera which is well outdone by business and marketing skills which are the most important things of all.
My clients have proved over and over again that Taking brilliant pics is NOT the key to success in the photography game.
In the early days where my trailer Jockey would just dump the cards into gallery's and put them on the Vstations, we had people order some shocker pics. They would come off the printer, we'd say, terribly sorry that is a terrible shot, please select another 2 on us and they would still want the shocker and it was IMPOSSIBLE to talk them out of it. They loved the expression on the kids face even though half the head was missing, the way the horse had it's ears even though they were about the only thing in the entire frame that was within a bulls roar of being in focus, the look of the father who was perfectly in focus even though the rider and horse weren't..... Nothing to do with photographic skill ( it had taken a brief absence in some of those shots) or knowledge of the sport ( none to begin with).
I have tried my hand at several other sports and events and the only thing I need to know is what the participants like to see and be portrayed as doing what they do well. From there it's pretty much a matter of getting the timing right and I'm there with no worries.
I have to disagree with you on this one, Glort. While it's true that people will buy some shots for reasons we'd never fathom (Daddy's expression, nice ears - whatever) I have found that shots that capture the sport action at its peak do well. I have competed in (and taught riding lessons as a certified coach) both show jumping and dressage so, when I'm shooting, I know the moments or the horse positions that will exemplify an excellent moment in that sport - and it does help.
I think multiple things contribute to sales success:
knowledge of the event helps a lot for those looking for proof of that moment of excellence;
This might not be the best technical shot, but it sold because it's the quintessential moment in the canter portion of the dressage test.
technical ability with exposure, composition and lighting; and
yep, MARKETING.
In terms of relative importance, though, I have to agree with Glort - marketing seems to rank #1. There are lots of excellent photographers out there (in various realms) who are starving; and there are others who are mediocre but doing well financially.
As would I. Sorry, Glort, but if all you think need to do is work on the technicals on the photography then you are completely missing the emotional and artistic part. And for that you need to understand your subject matter. There is no debating this.
In terms of relative importance, though, I have to agree with Glort - marketing seems to rank #1. There are lots of excellent photographers out there (in various realms) who are starving; and there are others who are mediocre but doing well financially.
This is true in any industry. The "build a better mousetrap" line was written by an engineer who naively thought the market always buys the better mousetrap, because as an engineer that is what they do. But marketing is what makes or breaks any product or service. This is why the marketing and sales people usually make more $$$ in any company than the engineers do.
I think I'll hit you up with a pm with few questions snow on what the best moments are for the different horse events. I have got a few different answers from the many, many riders I have spoken to so far but mainly they tell me the same thing which is what I work to.
I'm always willing to learn though![/quote]
Happy to help. I agree that it's impossible to know everything about every sport that one might want to shoot - and practice with feedback from the athletes is obviously one way to do that. I'd be in the same pickle if I were to try and shoot football, for example. I have a friend who shoots a lot of youth football (started when her sons got involved) and has a nice little team photo business going. But - she knows the game well - and where to be to get those good shots.
Congrats on wrapping up another charity event. You're on to a good thing there!
Comments
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Glort - welcome to business. Events are about business. Promoters don't put on events out of pure good will. It's business. And again as I mentioned at the beginning of this aspect of the discussion - events are almost always PRIVATE even if public space is leased. As such they can set rules - they can set dress code rules if they wish. They can set rules regarding vending (and almost always do control vending because it's lucrative), they can set restrictions about all sorts of things because the LAW OF THE LAND allows them to do so. They can say "you must be a citizen of this state to compete" - and guess what? People that want to compete have to follow those guidelines. Why? Because it is a private event - just because something is open to the public to watch does not mean it is something that occurs in the public domain.
And why do more and more restrictions get added? Two reasons - one, to prevent problems and two to protect revenue. Because events are about business.
Now, as you say - it will be interesting to see if someone from Canada can speak up and say whether Canadian law allows private organizations to set up their own rules for participation and attendance. I would be very surpised if organizations don't have that right there.
Glort I respectfully disagree to all of your arguements. Your statements show exactly what you don't understand, and perhaps don't care to understand about good business practices, and all the typing in the world won't change it if you are not open to not only reading it, but seeing it for it's value.
You have a lot to learn about event/show photography, ethics and business morals. You might want to be more careful giving out information about a subject you have very little knowledge about yourself.
Anyone can out maneuver their competition, especially when you pull away from good judgement. Harming someone or their equipment, suing or even the threat to sue, is not a way in which I will conduct my business. My business model is driven by what helps me to sleep each night. I've lived long enough to know that there are many people out there that don't care or have values, morals, and ethics to guide them to make the proper decisions in their day to day life, let alone their business. I don't care to be brought down by people that play their games like that in life, nor will I in business.
Ask snowgirl if the horse shows she's at sets rules and guidelines. I bet they do. I bet it isn't total anarchy where anyone can come, do whatever they want. See if someone can come in and fire off flash photography - it's allowed in public after all. Ask if playing loud music (within the public noise limits) is allowed. I'm sure it is - because as you say, the event has no authority to make any rules for those that attend. I'm sure anyone that wants to is allowed in the ring - after all the event has no authority to make rules. Seriously, if you only step back you'll see just how silly your argument is that organizations have no authority to make rules that limit freedoms participants or attendees would normally have in general public.
She put forward a thought for a business idea and people that felt threatened by it jumped all over her with a lot of moralistic clap trap.
What exactly would " Like Minded" ( whatever that is?) photographers have to offer in this situation. She needs qualified legal advise not more moralistic waffle.
When you want to know what the law is, you seek the advise of the people in that profession not something completely unrelated.
Since my last post I have been looking into the issue a bit more. There is definitely things in that for the Canadian shooters to be aware of!
I would strongly suggest before anyone thinks of having someone else run out of an event they would want to be VERY careful they have their own backsides covered First.
Bit don't anyone take my word for it, spend your own time getting yourself up to speed. Preferably from legal sources rather than other photographers.
BTW cdonovan, you have been very quick to tell others they don't know what they are talking about and make note of the time people have been in business etc in an apparent effort to undermine their credibility.
May I ask your age and how long you have been a full time professional Photographer in this area??
Once I have a chance to rest my aching back and legs (I don't think I sat down once between 7:a.m. and 5:p.m.) I'll post a couple of photos of my booth and fill in the details on the activities and any comments received from potential customers about my Paparazzi packages.
Have a good night all.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
There is nothing like the feeling of being completely drained after doing one of those shows but being amazed at how well it went.
Have well earned rest then let us know all about it.
Sorry to chime in late in the thread.
Over $3500 was raised at the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo for the local chapter of the Children's Wish Foundation. This was the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo and the event has grown dramatically in that short time. There were over 50 exhibitor booths (and a waiting list for exhibit space), a series of educational seminars offered throughout the day, and an opportunity for people from across the horse community throughout the province to come together and enjoy a day of camaraderie. Between visitors and exhibitors close to 750 people attended the one-day event.
The only opportunity I had to take photos of the booths was early on in the morning when everyone (including me) was still setting up. Consequently, many of the booths don't appear completely 'finished', but the visitors began coming in well before the 9 a.m. opening time and the flow was steady all day. My photos are in a gallery if you'd care to have a look. Just follow the link.
http://imagesbyceci.smugmug.com/Events/2010-January-Thaw-Equine-Expo/11036473_jtTjY#772112476_6bB5r
All said and done, it went well. I ended up with 66 solid contacts out of which 43 are good leads, so I'm quite happy. Also, it was a chance for additional exposure to the group, particularly some stables, disciplines and breed associations.
Although the photo of my booth looks a tad in disarray (in set-up stage), in fact I ended up with many compliments on the quality of my photos and inquiries as to whether or not I'd be willing to travel to different locations to do photo shoots (duh - yes!).
In one case a person wanted me to travel to her daughter's university to take photos of her and her horse. In fairness to the customer, I recommended another photographer who lives within a few miles of the university (it's in another province). Although I was flattered to be asked, I didn't think it would be fair to charge more for travel and expenses than the photos! (If it were a wedding or even a graduation, that'd be different) Plus - for me to do it would take 2+ days when you factor in the travel. I'm sure the person I recommended will do a bang-up job for the lady.
As the A&E commercial says, it was "time well spent".
OH - AND I won the exhibitor door prize of two month's free advertising on the region's most popular equine website!
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.
It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.
Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you!
Thanks Glort. And yes, I did develop a new mailing list as well so we're off to the races, as 'they' say
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
I agree!!!
http://www.tanyaeverettphotography.com/
http://tanyaeverettphotography.blogspot.com/
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Let me tell you how to get around this.
1) Ask them provide meals for you. (At least one meal a Day. They are usually happy to provide you with lunch)
2) If you are traveling more then three hours away from home ask for a room. (Most times they are housing Judges. They don't mind adding on another room)
3) If you are traveling out of state ask for comp for gas. (.45 cents a mile) A Hotel room and a meal.
I routinely as for this and have not been turned down. In fact it is in my contracts.
__________________
Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
Become a fan of Stone Creek Photography
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
My first show of the season was a whopping ten horses at a All Breed training show. They were more then happy to provide me a meal. (Adding me to their Catering tab or Restaurant Tab)
Last December I did a Show in Loveland Colorado. I was given two meals a day and my hotel room (Along with my assistant) We were also invited to dinner with the BoD.
I have not had anyone turn me down yet. Unless they have another shooter.
Every year between September - January I start sending out Email Blasts to all my previous shows and ask them if they would like me again this year. Right now I have 5 shows lined up for all year. I am working on adding more as soon as I get Schedule conflicts out of the way. I am a one woman show, so I can't be at more then one show on any given day. (I'd love to have an assistant)
I sell between Arena Drag times, Lunch, Breaks and tack Changes. I also have the announcer announcing me all through out the show. I'm personable, friendly and I approach people. I LOVE to show riders a photo I think is amazing right on the camera. (This gets them excited. They get to touch the equipment)
Also if I have time (Usually at the end of the show) I sit down with people and edit their photos with them. They love lightroom and watching dull photos become amazing with cropping and color management. That gets them excited too.
Nine times out of ten I get prime Booth Locations. Tons of traffic. I get advertising space, Announcements in their programs, through out the show and I talk to people. I also give them photos for their websites.
This is also my third year with alot of my shows. I did not ask for compensation til last year and as of yet have not had a problem.
I am not making Fistfulls of money, but enough to make it worth my while. (Though last year was hard)
__________________
Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
Become a fan of Stone Creek Photography
That's the key. After you figure in the cost of insurance/liability and taxes and depreciation on equipment (and the saving for replacement), is the money left over good enough compensation for the hours spent in the effort to shoot, process, market etc. I have to say when I factored all the real costs into the equation, the net income for event photography just wasn't enough to keep me involved. So good for those of you who are making enough profit that it's worth all of it.
If you aren't loving what you do regardless of money coming in then you need to look at that. Is it worth the money.
For me it's worth getting out of the house, making friends, meeting clients who will use me for Farm shoots. (Which is where more profit comes in) The shows for me are all about Marketing. If I make money at them Awesome. If I get a free lunch, some new clients All the more awesome.
It's hardly a waste of time.. unless I don't give out a single business card.
__________________
Stone Creek Photography
Equine and Historical Landscape Photographer.
New Mexico.
Become a fan of Stone Creek Photography
Great.Let us know how all of this goes.
I'm lucky in one respect. The venue where I do most of my horse shows has an area that all of the photographers who shoot there use. It's visible from the arena and, because it's the same spot all the time, the regular competitors know to come there to see what's what.
The rolling cart view station sounds good. Lots of luck.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
Pity about that. But - lesson learned. If a major sponsor is a media company - don't waste your time, eh? Or - try to subcontract through the media company as an alternative.
I saw another version of the cart that had a lift-up top such as you describe - which is a one idea. Or, for safety sake - stick with the original concept and box up the monitor when you're transporting.
Good luck. Watching with GREAT interest.:D
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
The thing with equine stuff, or any niche markets for that matter, is that you have to know them to shoot them. Sure anyone can shoot technically correct, but to really show the horse rider combo, to their fullest potential, you need a background.
I have to disagree with you on this one, Glort. While it's true that people will buy some shots for reasons we'd never fathom (Daddy's expression, nice ears - whatever) I have found that shots that capture the sport action at its peak do well. I have competed in (and taught riding lessons as a certified coach) both show jumping and dressage so, when I'm shooting, I know the moments or the horse positions that will exemplify an excellent moment in that sport - and it does help.
I think multiple things contribute to sales success:
In terms of relative importance, though, I have to agree with Glort - marketing seems to rank #1. There are lots of excellent photographers out there (in various realms) who are starving; and there are others who are mediocre but doing well financially.
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
This is true in any industry. The "build a better mousetrap" line was written by an engineer who naively thought the market always buys the better mousetrap, because as an engineer that is what they do.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I'm always willing to learn though![/quote]
Happy to help. I agree that it's impossible to know everything about every sport that one might want to shoot - and practice with feedback from the athletes is obviously one way to do that. I'd be in the same pickle if I were to try and shoot football, for example. I have a friend who shoots a lot of youth football (started when her sons got involved) and has a nice little team photo business going. But - she knows the game well - and where to be to get those good shots.
Congrats on wrapping up another charity event. You're on to a good thing there!
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada
http://www.imagesbyceci.com
http://www.facebook.com/ImagesByCeci
Picadilly, NB, Canada