Shooting a indoor wedding with natural/ambient light?

JayClark79 · January 12, 2010

Does anyone do this? I dont believe its possible but my wifes Uncle (for the record who has never shot a wedding but is a photographer...more of an artsy photographer then a people shooter) who is shooting atleast 3 weddings this coming spring and summer thinks he is going to be able to shoot in a church and at a reception with no flash at all!.. he says if i just get a good 2.8 it should be no problem....

YA IF YOU SHOOT AT 6400 ISO or something crazy is what i was thinking...

He says the flash creates to many shadows... and i tried explaining you have to bounce the flash and defuse the flash so it almost looks like no flash was used... and that your getting these shadows because the flash is to direct...

I dont think he is listening to me though.... I mean he does have more experiance then I do.... but i still feel im correct in my thinking lol

heatherfeather · January 12, 2010

My thoughts are... without flash....it can be done, though would be really tough in the darker venues. Especially at 2.8, it would be pretty amazingly hard. It isn't a fast enough lens for the darker ones.

Flash done carefully and correctly does not have nasty shadows, so you are totally fine in saying that.

Perhaps what he is saying is that he does not know how to use flash, and prefers to go sans?

But I wouldn't get into it with him. He obviously knows "all about it" and why bother educating someone who doesn't want to learn it.

tenoverthenose · January 12, 2010

It's not my style to shoot without lights but it can be done. I never used a flash during a ceremony and I always am able to capture what needs to be captured. I do regularly shoot at receptions without a flash, it's just a style question. Using a flash will create shadows. Using no light will capture shadows. Lots of creative decisions here. Also, with many recent bodies there is no reason to be scared of 6400 iso.

JayClark79 · January 12, 2010

tenoverthenose wrote:

Also, with many recent bodies there is no reason to be scared of 6400 iso.

I have the T1i which has the same processor as the 7D I believe.. and at 3200 there is some pretty grainy noise... unless im doing something wrong

3200 is the highest setting my camera has.

ChatKat · January 12, 2010

No
I think that you'd need to be shooting with 1.2 - 1.4 and you risk too much. One of the weddings I did this past summer in a glass walled sanctuary with no flash and 200 2.8 and I can tell you that the photos could have been better with flash. The officiant said he'd stop the ceremony if I used flash because it would be disruptive to him.

It's not uncommon.

urbanaries · January 12, 2010

If the venue gets a decent amount of light, (has windows, ceremony during daylight hours) it can be done. My last several indoor weddings we shot with no flash. Granted, I'm using 1.4 - 2.0 primes. monopods and tripods help. the only tough part is the processional, when people are moving, but I've never (ok, one time) had any officiant object to me using flash then. People just aren't moving that much when they're saying vows, listening to readings, etc. YMMV.

Matthew Saville · January 12, 2010

Embrace the grain, embrace the darkness!
I'm a huge believer in shooting ambient unless it's absolutely impossible. And considering technology these days, things usually don't get that bad. With a full-frame DSLR body and a 1.4 prime or a 2.8 zoom, you're usually set.

You may have to build a high grain tolerance, though. I personally love grain, I got kinda turned off by the plastic-y look that Canon cameras were giving at ISO 100 / 200, and I started shooting with my Nikons at ISO 400+ even back when they were NOISY little machines... So now I feel totally comfortable at ISO 1600 / 3200 on my D300, depending on the image's importance, or with the D700 I readily go to 3200 / 6400 for some shots. I just don't mind grain, as long as I can maintain detail...

=Matt=

A few samples taken in ridiculously low lighting:
(All were taken at around f/1.4 and ISO 1600-6400 on a D300 or a Canon 5D mk1...)

coldclimb · January 12, 2010

One thing that has always driven me nuts about people is their desire for romantic "ambiance", which I'm convinced just means "darkness."

I hardly feel worthy of commenting here, but from my limited experience, the comments already here are right. It can be done, but it can also be difficult, depending on the venue.

My own church has horrible lighting. :cry

mmmatt · January 12, 2010

I'll take my flash thank you! There are two ways to properly light a photograph: Light you find or light you make. Being good at either is a skill, but being good at both is best. I don't like random shadows but I love the ones I make and control... well, most of the time!!!

Matt

Matthew Saville wrote:

=Matt=

You know it's funny... I think there are two people on this whole forum who actually sign their name to every post and were both named Matt. Ha!

Mishka · January 12, 2010

Like everyone's said...it can be done. Actually, sometimes I choose not to use flash during the ceremony because I like the light already found in the church. Other times though, I bounce my flash. But often, I don't get a choice: it's just no flash allowed--even in dark caves of churches.

Here's a couple of shots from a recent wedding where the front of the church was well lit. No flash used. Aperture was f/2.8.

See how nice the lighting was? I don't think flash would have improved it.

mmmatt · January 12, 2010

Mishka wrote:

Like everyone's said...it can be done. Actually, sometimes I choose not to use flash during the ceremony because I like the light already found in the church. Other times though, I bounce my flash. But often, I don't get a choice: it's just no flash allowed--even in dark caves of churches.

Here's a couple of shots from a recent wedding where the front of the church was well lit. No flash used. Aperture was f/2.8.

Well, during the service yes... that's why we carry fast glass right?! Would you do that same thing in a dark reception hall? I'll bounce when I get the OK for flash in the church still shooting at iso 1000-1600 using mostly light from the church, but at a reception it is pretty unpredictable.

God forbid you have a dj because he'll be throwing his crappy light all over the place... can be a neat effect on a few shots, but you don't want Roy G Biv disco lighting all over every single one your photos. Don't forget the video guy! He has crappy light on board too! Then they pump the lights up for dinner, and down for the dance, and up for the cake and down for the booty shakin... it can be a mess! Then you have the can lights shooting straight down in some areas giving everyone who walks under them raccoon eyes, and they're a different color temp than the lights in the sconces, and different than the patio lights coming through the south window... on and on and on. It can be done, but it is tough and to my eyes not often better at all. In a perfect situation maybe as good, but when do we get those? It is super simple to bounce off a wall in a big, dark, dungeon of a reception hall and get light that looks like it is pouring in through an open window. When the light is otherwise good flip the switch or use the flash for fill or whatever. How about depth of field? do you want every shot at f2?

If I had the opportunity to pose everyone in the good lighting that would be fine, or if I was shooting for perfect lighting instead of expression or situation that would be fine, but unless you are shooting outdoor receptions and have some magical control over the clouds (like Alaksandras does for instance!), then I would say you should really have a flash on the shoe!

Matt

Mishka · January 13, 2010

mmmatt wrote:

Well, during the service yes... that's why we carry fast glass right?! Would you do that same thing in a dark reception hall? I'll bounce when I get the OK for flash in the church still shooting at iso 1000-1600 using mostly light from the church, but at a reception it is pretty unpredictable.

Matt

Yeah, I was only referring to flash during the service. Flash at the dark reception hall is a must.

mmmatt · January 13, 2010

Mishka wrote:

Yeah, I was only referring to flash during the service. Flash at the dark reception hall is a must.

Didn't mean to come off harsh there, but I could just see the thread in 2 months where a newb posts a "how can I fix my unflashed reception photos" thread a few weeks after reading this thread!

Matt

Mishka · January 13, 2010

mmmatt wrote:

Didn't mean to come off harsh there, but I could just see the thread in 2 months where a newb posts a "how can I fix my unflashed reception photos" thread a few weeks after reading this thread!

Matt

No worries, I totally agree with you.

JayClark79 · January 13, 2010

Thanks everyone for their comments... I wasnt even thinking that some churches may not want flash photography during the ceremony.. I guess I was assuming my wifes uncle meant the reception also with out flash which just isng gonna happen..

I saw some of the pics he took from a wedding vow renewal he shot with me, he does have some hardcore shadwos which really look like direct flash.

zoomer · January 14, 2010

Seems like the longer I do this the less flash I use...may come a day where I don't use it at all.
Like Glort said clients never notice the grain, and in prints it really does not show near as much as on screen.
Too much flash is worse than a very slight blur. On the flip side underexposed natural light shots are worse than well done flash shots.
What do do...
I just picked up an 85 1.4 lens to try to take the natural light indoor action to the next level....we will see.
Is it possible? 90 percent of the time yes, a professional needs to have flash available and know how to use it, there will be times where it is required.
I know some of the biggest names charging the biggest fees use no flash ever....
Ok I will stop rambling now.

bmoreshooter · January 14, 2010

While it may be possible to shoot a wedding without a flash I would not recommend it. The mark of a professional photographer is the ability to be prepared for all circumstances at all times. To simply say that I can shoot a wedding completely with available light is the statement of a person who has not shot many weddings. I shoot at one particular venue where the ceilings are painted black and there is no overhead lighting. All of the light comes from very warm colored skonces (sp?) on the walls. Even if I could shoot there without flash the photos would have an uncorrectable color cast. As for high ISO, graininess is not the only problem. Photos will begin to lose sharpness and gain noise. Especially in the shadow areas, which there are a lot of in available light. You will also have issues with subject blur from movement. While the newest cameras function remarkably at high ISO ratings, that should be concidered a new weapon in our arsonal, not a reason to abandon good lighting techniques.

Matthew Saville · January 14, 2010

bmoreshooter wrote:

While it may be possible to shoot a wedding without a flash I would not recommend it. The mark of a professional photographer is the ability to be prepared for all circumstances at all times. To simply say that I can shoot a wedding completely with available light is the statement of a person who has not shot many weddings. I shoot at one particular venue where the ceilings are painted black and there is no overhead lighting. All of the light comes from very warm colored skonces (sp?) on the walls. Even if I could shoot there without flash the photos would have an uncorrectable color cast. As for high ISO, graininess is not the only problem. Photos will begin to lose sharpness and gain noise. Especially in the shadow areas, which there are a lot of in available light. You will also have issues with subject blur from movement. While the newest cameras function remarkably at high ISO ratings, that should be concidered a new weapon in our arsonal, not a reason to abandon good lighting techniques.

I certainly agree with this sentiment and the other people's recent replies- To show up to a wedding *without* flash in your bag at all is downright disrespectful to the bride and groom, and stupid to boot. I would only say that, if the lighting is right, I'd *prefer* to shoot 100% ambient whenever it's possible. I keep my SB800's at the ready though, and consider myself an artful light bouncer... (or if there's nothing to bounce off of, I rent a couple extra flashes, and put them all over the place wirelessly...)

=Matt=

(Outdoors, an hour after sunset, no tent, hardly ANY lights, and they expect me to get artistic photos? It's all about flash and wireless remotes at that point...)

Betz · January 15, 2010

Matthew Saville wrote:

I certainly agree with this sentiment and the other people's recent replies- To show up to a wedding *without* flash in your bag at all is downright disrespectful to the bride and groom, and stupid to boot. I would only say that, if the lighting is right, I'd *prefer* to shoot 100% ambient whenever it's possible. I keep my SB800's at the ready though, and consider myself an artful light bouncer... (or if there's nothing to bounce off of, I rent a couple extra flashes, and put them all over the place wirelessly...)

=Matt=

(Outdoors, an hour after sunset, no tent, hardly ANY lights, and they expect me to get artistic photos? It's all about flash and wireless remotes at that point...)

This is what I'm facing for my next wedding this month. They want outdoor shots in front of a fireplace (that won't be lit by the way) between 6:00 - 6:30 pm. The available lighting comes from 2 low-to-the-ground orangish walkway lights and a large street light 100ft from where I need to shoot. 2010 is proving to be the year I learn to love my flash AND Strobist. With some tips from a colleague I'm taking my 580EXII off camera, placing it on a light stand camera left and using a shoot through umbrella. I'm grabbing a 16ft straight flash sync cord from FlashZebra.com to connect my 50D to the flash mounted with a shoot through umbrella. He says it will work. I trust him and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'd love to shoot available light all the time but unfortunately the world isn't perfect.

Matthew Saville · January 15, 2010

Betz wrote:

This is what I'm facing for my next wedding this month. They want outdoor shots in front of a fireplace (that won't be lit by the way) between 6:00 - 6:30 pm. The available lighting comes from 2 low-to-the-ground orangish walkway lights and a large street light 100ft from where I need to shoot. 2010 is proving to be the year I learn to love my flash AND Strobist. With some tips from a colleague I'm taking my 580EXII off camera, placing it on a light stand camera left and using a shoot through umbrella. I'm grabbing a 16ft straight flash sync cord from FlashZebra.com to connect my 50D to the flash mounted with a shoot through umbrella. He says it will work. I trust him and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'd love to shoot available light all the time but unfortunately the world isn't perfect.

YIKES! Yeah, give up on ambient for that group photo, haha... I wonder how you'll integrate the fireplace into the shots? Sounds crazy. I'd definitely want to visit the location once (or twice, or thrice!) beforehand and test things out...You may have to use a tripod to allow for a slower shutter speed so you can add in some ambient light. And certainly put a little effort into arranging your subjects in the same plane of focus so you can shoot a fast aperture!

=Matt=

Crystal-Pixel · January 16, 2010

Craziness I see so many different people with different thoughts on this. But I'll have to agree with some that you dont ALWAYS need flash. Sometimes you can't even use it. But when you can, and if it makes the picture better - then use it. I'm not a fan of grain, but I am still intimidated by the flash. I've shot most of my weddings with a mix of both, mostly ambient natural light. I've done one reception at night outside and flash was a must... So I think its personal preference and if you have the right equipment and lens.

Betz · January 17, 2010

Matthew Saville wrote:

YIKES! Yeah, give up on ambient for that group photo, haha... I wonder how you'll integrate the fireplace into the shots? Sounds crazy. I'd definitely want to visit the location once (or twice, or thrice!) beforehand and test things out...You may have to use a tripod to allow for a slower shutter speed so you can add in some ambient light. And certainly put a little effort into arranging your subjects in the same plane of focus so you can shoot a fast aperture!

=Matt=

I just made my 3rd visit to the site. Fortunately for me one of the members on their board of trustees was a former portrait client so I've been given a temporary pass to get onto the site as much as I want for the next week. I've been dragging family members along as models. I've already figured that tripod will be a must.

As for the fireplace: Rumor now has it that they're going to light the fireplace for the couples photos. Once I heard that my brain exploded a little. Sparks? Sparks on wedding dress? Smoke? Smoke in B&G's eyes? Light/shadows from the fireplace? Ugh. And I thought chasing and photographing toddlers would be more difficult. Give me a toddler any day... ANY DAY!!

Matthew Saville · January 17, 2010

Betz wrote:

I just made my 3rd visit to the site. Fortunately for me one of the members on their board of trustees was a former portrait client so I've been given a temporary pass to get onto the site as much as I want for the next week. I've been dragging family members along as models. I've already figured that tripod will be a must.

As for the fireplace: Rumor now has it that they're going to light the fireplace for the couples photos. Once I heard that my brain exploded a little. Sparks? Sparks on wedding dress? Smoke? Smoke in B&G's eyes? Light/shadows from the fireplace? Ugh. And I thought chasing and photographing toddlers would be more difficult. Give me a toddler any day... ANY DAY!!

Where is the fireplace in relation to the people, and which direction will they be facing for the pictures? Sounds, um, interesting. Haha...

=Matt=

l.k.madison · January 17, 2010

Ok, so I've been watching this debate for a while and here's my two cents.

Personally, unless I just HAVE to, I hate using the flash, ambient/natural light is my friend.

Here's two examples (weddings I've attended as a guest) in which flash would have killed the shot...

I didn't have the flash on for two reasons: one, the bride and groom were lit enough, two, I wasn't the hired 'tog and I didn't want my flash to mess up *his* shots...

The table over the cake was giving me plenty of light and while the reception hall is a wooden box with a few windows (I got married in there, I now cry for my photographer and what she was going though) so I was lucky to have light at all.

Would you be stupid to not at least pack it, yes, of course. Even if it's just on the camera at all times giving you the quick on/off option, a flash is a MUST at a wedding.... wait, I correct that, *correct* use of a flash is a must.

The Mack · January 17, 2010

JayClark79 wrote:

I have the T1i which has the same processor as the 7D I believe.. and at 3200 there is some pretty grainy noise... unless im doing something wrong 3200 is the highest setting my camera has.

I shot a wedding inside a church in September with a D300s and 50 f/1.4 - no flash allowed. The shots weren't as good as they could have been from using flash, but they were usable.

Mishka · January 19, 2010

I think it really does depend on the location whether to use flash or not...

I do love using natural light when I can, but I also think flash can enhance the photos. Here's a post I wrote about my reception lighting techniques. I'm sure it's not for everyone, but I like the look I achieve with flash at the reception.

Of course, if the reception was a lovely light-filled room or an outdoor tent, I'd happily toss my flash aside.

Crystal-Pixel · January 25, 2010

Mishka wrote:

I think it really does depend on the location whether to use flash or not...

I do love using natural light when I can, but I also think flash can enhance the photos. Here's a post I wrote about my reception lighting techniques. I'm sure it's not for everyone, but I like the look I achieve with flash at the reception.

Of course, if the reception was a lovely light-filled room or an outdoor tent, I'd happily toss my flash aside.

Thank you for sharing!! I have been wondering this! I am now in the process of saving up to invest in equipment. I currently have a 420ex and 430exII and am debating if I should just get a 580ex to sync those two or a pocket wizard....

Mishka · January 25, 2010

Crystal-Pixel wrote:

Thank you for sharing!! I have been wondering this! I am now in the process of saving up to invest in equipment. I currently have a 420ex and 430exII and am debating if I should just get a 580ex to sync those two or a pocket wizard....

Great! I'm glad you could use it. I think, though that you'd need some sort of adapter for the 420 and 430, as they don't have a socket to plug the pocket wizard into. Sad, I know. I'm not sure how well the 580 ex will reach to the other flashes in a large room...

Crystal-Pixel · January 25, 2010

Mishka wrote:

Great! I'm glad you could use it. I think, though that you'd need some sort of adapter for the 420 and 430, as they don't have a socket to plug the pocket wizard into. Sad, I know. I'm not sure how well the 580 ex will reach to the other flashes in a large room...

Good point.. I will have to make sure to do some additional research

Thanks for sharing. Btw, I was looking at your photos.. BEAUTIFUL work. Truely an inspiration

If you don't mind me asking, what do you shoot with?

Mishka · January 25, 2010

Crystal-Pixel wrote:

Good point.. I will have to make sure to do some additional research Thanks for sharing. Btw, I was looking at your photos.. BEAUTIFUL work. Truely an inspiration If you don't mind me asking, what do you shoot with?

Thanks for the compliment! That means a lot to me. I shoot with Canon gear...I have 5dII, 2 5D classics, and a good number of L lenses, plus some non Ls...

mmmatt · January 26, 2010

Mishka wrote:

Great! I'm glad you could use it. I think, though that you'd need some sort of adapter for the 420 and 430, as they don't have a socket to plug the pocket wizard into. Sad, I know. I'm not sure how well the 580 ex will reach to the other flashes in a large room...

The new pocket wizards are canon ettl and work well from the hotshoe with all EXCEPT the 580's because the 580's emit a frequency that messes with the frequencies available to the pw's. Still work, but distance is compromised. Big difference between the 580's though and the 4 series flashes in terms of power. The built-in infra red on the 580 does work well indoors though, and over a respectable distance. I personally don't use off camera much indoors anymore except for group formals though so I don't mind any of that.

Matt

Shooting a indoor wedding with natural/ambient light?

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