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Need Serious Help: Print Ad My FIRST Sale EVER
Meghan Senkel
Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
Hi! My name is Meghan and I decided to make the transition from hobby photographer to pro this year. I've been working really hard on my business, doing as much as I can during my free time after my "real" job, fully expecting that my future client's needs (and requests for work) would catch up with the business planning end of things a few months down the road. So far it hasn't really worked out that way!
My problem is this: On Saturday, I took some shots at my local dog wash of the customer's pooches. One of these dogs is a 3-month-old champion Chow Chow puppy. I gave her owners my business card and set up a gallery on the web for them. As it turns out they are interested in using one of my photos in a print ad for the Chow National in April. I was NOT expecting my very first sale to be for a single digital image, much less for a print ad. I have absolutely NO idea how to proceed with pricing, agreements/contracts, etc...
I currently live in Annapolis, MD if that helps at all.
I'd really appreciate any responses you have, I'd like to get back to them as quickly as possible (you know, so they don't see the man behind the curtain!) as they may be future clients.
Thanks so much!!
Meghan
My problem is this: On Saturday, I took some shots at my local dog wash of the customer's pooches. One of these dogs is a 3-month-old champion Chow Chow puppy. I gave her owners my business card and set up a gallery on the web for them. As it turns out they are interested in using one of my photos in a print ad for the Chow National in April. I was NOT expecting my very first sale to be for a single digital image, much less for a print ad. I have absolutely NO idea how to proceed with pricing, agreements/contracts, etc...
I currently live in Annapolis, MD if that helps at all.
I'd really appreciate any responses you have, I'd like to get back to them as quickly as possible (you know, so they don't see the man behind the curtain!) as they may be future clients.
Thanks so much!!
Meghan
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Comments
First of all, congratulations on making the transition to pro! Judging by your blog (which I really like, by the way), I'm about a month or two behind you now. (Shot my first paid portrait assignment in December, my business cards arrive next week, and my new "professional" website will launch in about two weeks.)
Pricing this photo should depend on your expertise and reputation and the client's market and usage. Since the image wasn't shot as an assignment, you'd be licensing it for the ad as stock. There are several places where you can get pricing guidelines. I would strongly recommend these two books:
Best Business Practices for Photographers (Second Edition) by John Harrington
I recommend you read this from cover to cover -- there is SO much useful information here! Pricing is discussed in Chapter 7. He will point you to a software package called FotoQuote (~$150) that can provide current pricing guidelines for any photo usage imaginable.
Pricing Photography (Third Edition) by Michal Heron and David MacTavish
This book has more in-depth pricing information and includes price charts in Chapter 9.
Both books contain sample forms -- contracts, licenses, etc.
This information may be overkill now for pricing this usage, but it gives you a good idea of the information that is factored into the pricing process -- and it will hopefully be useful down the road as you grow your photography business!
I did some Googling -- is the 2010 CCCI in Pennsylvania the event to which you are referring? If so, you can find a link to their catalog ad pricing PDF about halfway down that page on the left. Your potential client's ad options are:
You should inquire as to which usage they are considering before giving them a quote -- or simply provide a quote that covers all three possible usages. This alone will help you come across as a professional who knows what she's doing.
Normally stock photos for ads are priced at a small fraction of what it costs the company to place the ad, but that won't be the case here since the cost to place an ad is so small. You'll have to go with your gut on this one. Since your photo is of the client's championship dog, you can command a higher price since they have a personal attachment to it. (I'm sure you know how much people LOVE photos of their own pets. They wouldn't be happy with just any $5 Chow photo from iStockphoto.)
I'm not sure if you can find this out or not, but if the purpose of running the ad is personal (something like "Congats, Fifi!" -- I'm not sure if this is done for dog shows, but it's often done by families of cast members in theater productions), then they MUST have your image for the ad -- no other Chow would do. In this case, you can get a very good price for your image. Or are they running the ad for their Chow-related business? In that case it's a business expense for them, and they expect to get some return -- so you could also charge a good price in this case.
Whatever you end up doing, make it clear that a license for advertising use is separate from a personal-use print. In other words, they should not buy a print from you at your normal price, then turn around and have it scanned for the ad. Nor should they be printing personal-use copies from the digital file you provide for ad usage.
It's obvious they really like your photo. Personally, I would quote them at 100% of the ad cost for B&W or 80% of the ad cost for color, but tell them that I would include a nice print for their personal use -- perhaps 8x12. (Because they would want one, and unfortunately they would probably print your digital file anyway, despite your restrictions.) I'd also include a quote for me to design their ad -- because I'm a reasonably competent designer and I imagine it would be a low-maintenance job. (Up-sell and cross-sell wherever possible!)
If they balked at my quote, and IF the ad was being run in my local area, I would offer to come down in price in exchange for a photo credit with my website address in their ad (20% to 50% depending on size of credit and if they let me use my logo) -- that would be great cross-promotion if I enjoyed pet photography. (Obviously I would not offer the "free" personal print in this case.) Either way, if they don't bite, I would thank them for their interest and point them to my price list for personal-use prints.
But that's just me -- you should definitely do whatever makes you feel comfortable.
Sorry this turned out to be so long! I hope this helps you!
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
EDIT:::::::
Found one of them:
http://www.photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm
That was a nice thought, but I'm pretty sure that site won't be useful in this situation. The lowest distribution that site mentions is "10,000 or less" -- which is quoted in the several hundreds of dollars in every case. That's far beyond the use mentioned (a dog show program ad).
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
I got my sale and I'm pretty happy (and learned a TON) and I think the clients are pleased as well. Thanks so much for all of the help!!
Meghan
Congratulations!
Do you care to share how it turned out for the benefit of other Dgrinners who may happen across this thread in the future? (You can omit specific dollar amounts if you'd prefer.)
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
I think for your first "sale", it went well. The exposure alone is worth more then $35-40 lol
Exposure to what? when was the last time you remembered the name of the photographer of a picture in a brochure/magazine?
"Pro" being someone who is paid and sought out for photographic work.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=157917
Pro is such a loosely used word these days. I think we should come up with another term for the real pro's in this day and age. Super Pro maybe?
Hey, ease up, Mack. If you wanted to chime in constructively, the time for that would have been before she made the sale. And she didn't claim to be a pro.
She's doing the right thing by coming here for help and advice.
Kudos on your first sale, Meghan! Don't be discouraged by naysayers -- I think you handled that situation just fine!
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
Gotta agree with Eric on this one Lisa
Also gotta agree here. Last I remember, at least according to the guidelines set fourth by Canon's CPS program, at least half your income has to come from photography to be considered a "Pro"
She said she went from hobbyist to pro, which to me, means she's claiming to be a pro.
It might not be what she wanted to hear, or you wanted to hear, but the truth is the truth.
With this one "small" sale I've made contact with a real, interested client who has the potential to increase my exposure to a countless number of people in my target market. Not only that, but I also proved to my client that I can shoot an great image off the cuff, respond to their inquiries and negotiate in a professional manner, and provide a high-quality product.
As a first sale it was not what I expected, but for the circumstances I'm happy with the outcome and feel that this will do nothing but boost my fledgling business. Do I expect to work at this cost forever? No, I want to make a living at this. But, like I said, we all have to start somewhere.
Sorry, Meghan -- usually DGrin is more friendly to people who are just starting out and ask for advice. These people clearly didn't read your original post carefully enough. You're not claiming to be a pro, and you did what was best for your business in this situation.
The price was appropriate for a small dog show program (NOT a magazine), and the exposure it gets you will be far more valuable than the licensing fee you were paid -- especially since you're just starting out. That's many real people who will have a specific connection to your photo (good chow dog photo at a chow dog show), and I wouldn't be surprised if it netted you several inquires. It's a good start.
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
First off a National Championship dog isn't a small community. And while I'm glad you were able to make your first sale, you may get some work out of it. However, the client is more then likely going to tell their friends that this photographer is cheap, look at what I got and the price I paid for it.
I see your new around here with only 10 posts. Eric was right, to many people now days think they are "pros" because they run out and buy a camera, take a few pictures and sell one or two. To me, and many other people thats not a "pro".
To make it clear to EVERYONE who is slamming the OP, I'll quote her here one last time...
Is that not clear?
Just be polite and offer constructive criticism.
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
I'm not here claiming to be a "pro", I'm just asking for help and support. Will I make mistakes? YES. Will I learn from them and move on? YES. Am I unhappy with my first transaction? NO.
I appreciate the differing opinions on this issue. And please know that I'm seriously committed to supporting the professional photography industry by setting my prices fairly and in such a manner that will be able to support me. I haven't quit my day job yet, but it is my goal to one day go full-time. As of now, I'm working on a pricing strategy to implement now that would compensate for the loss of my current $55,000/year salary (in fact I'd like to give myself a nice raise) once I do go full time. I don't intend on going into photography full time so I can work like a dog handing out $30 copies of my work to every Tom, Dick, and Harry, but this is a FIRST. It's all up from here...price-wise at least.
To make it clear... She said the following...
Bold 1 - means she's going from hobby to pro in 2010. It's Feb 5th, 2010, means the year has started.
Bold 2 - she's been doing the business planning, part of which is knowing how to market yourself and what your worth.
Bold 3 - says it hasn't worked out that well, to me, that means she's been doing what she can to make it as a pro...
If you would like me to be a real asshole, I can. I'd rather not, as I don't even know her. But digitalmom can vouch that I can be a real asshole if need be.
Are you a member of any other forums for photography?
Try not to be so sensitive. Everything you're told isn't always sugar and sweet, sometimes there is some sour stuff mixed in there.
OP should take this as a learning experience (the sale) and go forward with her desires. We all learn from everything.
Got a website/flickr/blog or anything?
We're not talking Westminster here... Yes, it's a national show/convention, but for only one breed of dog. That is much smaller. And on top of that it's not like I'm going to be traveling from the East Coast to the West Coast to photograph some LA chow. The East Coast circle of chow owners is now even smaller.
They can tell them what I accepted as a price, but that doesn't mean that I have to take every low-ball offer that comes my way. I'm not even sure that this is a market I care to stay in. But for the sake of my business I have to test the waters and figure it out for myself.
My blog/website is at: meghansenkelphotography.com
My SmugMug site is at: http://meghansenkelphotography.smugmug.com/
I'm not here for sugar coating and sweetness. Life's a bitch and if I have any intention of running a successful business and not going back to my nine-to-five, then I want the dirty, grimy side of things. I have a lot to learn, but I'm an adult and can take your constructive criticism. Without that I have nothing but pipe dreams and fairy dust and you can't take that to the bank. I want to succeed at this and make a living. I don't want to be another member in the ranks of failure.
Hey, and if you're going to be an "asshole", don't do it to me. I haven't done anything to deserve your wrath.
First things first - Meghan good on you for closing the sale. It would appear from your discussion here that you did, indeed, handle it in an appropriately professional manner. And, I agree, you will get limited visibility from the ad .... not as much as you might like, but more than nothing.
Second issue - posts like the two following ... I'm usually able to ignore and let it go. But there's been a pattern and it's been getting to me, so... Just my $.02 worth Take a look at this page for an idea of what it means to be a "National Champion" - the criteria are not very exclusive. That having been said, and having had some small experience in the matter some years ago, the individual breed communities do tend to be quite tightly knit - lots of cross-talk and networking. Will the client spread her name? Probably. Will the client mention the low rate paid? Probably. Will Meghan be able to rise above it? Sure, it simply a matter of expression, "That was then, this is now" - of course using much more PC language. She might get the next sale, she might not. Next... Ummmm ... Yeah, a clear case of "People in glass houses ...". I have 10 times the posts you have and have been around here a couple more days than you. Does that matter? Does that make my opinion more valid than yours? I don't think so. The reverse is also true.
As for comments/definitions RE: "pro" .... Please consider/remember that point that has been made more than once. The OP did not and does not (yet) claim to be pro. She does have a very reasonable goal of making a living doing what she loves and for which she has obvious talent. She will, eventually, get to the point where she will qualify, by your definition, as a pro.
OK, now that I've gotten that off my chest ... we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Thank you, Scott! I appreciate you input tremendously.
Thanks, Scott -- well said.
Thanks for implementing bulk digital downloads, SmugMug!
Jeremy...I don't think post count has anything to do with if you're a "pro" or not. I do agree that sometimes that term is used way to loosely, but I definitely don't think that post count can determine whether or not someone is a pro.
Now back to my original congrats. I said that because she sold her first print, whether digital or print. Regardless of if she got $30 for it or $300 for it, it sold. Plain and simple. Everyone has to start some where and being new to the game, she closed the deal. That's all that matters. Will a lesson be learned for next time? Maybe, but that's up to Meghan. Will her prices increase and the "haggling" be obsolete in the next deal? Probably.
When I said she would get exposure, I sure wasn't meaning National Geographic. Someone is going to see that picture and possibly retain her name for the future. Even if it's for something else. She could request that her web site be listed along with her name. At the stage of the game where she is at, it's all about driving the traffic to your site. You want people to see what you can offer, not just pictures of a dog.
Exposure is everything and it's all about getting your name out there when you're starting out.
So my congrats stands
Thanks, Lisa! Your words are much appreciated!