First Manual BB

Macushla

It's been a week since I got my D90. I tried shooting boys Basketball today - first time in manual!!! Shutter 1/200, Aperture 3.2, ISO 640. I was using the focus in the AF-C focusing mode, suggested by Steve (slipkid). I tried using the histogram to get the correct settings.

I did have some problems cutting off limbs. I think I probably need a wider angle lens - From the corner near the basket I can't get them in the frame.

Here are my results:

1.


2.


3.


Here are the rest:http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/PatBB#


I would love some C&C. I am very new but eager to get better.

I also have a question about the Autofocus area modes. Anyone have the D90? Usually have it set to Single point. Would dynamic area or auto area be better. I think a lot of my shots are not completely in focus. I'm not exactly clear on when to use which mode. I have read the manual but they all sound like they would be good almost all the time. Any thoughts?

rainbow

Good start! Looks like your exposures are good. I suggest a higher ISO to get a faster shutter speed. 1/200 only is good if they are barely moving. Also, shoot in portrait mode so that you get the players vertically. Thus, your third is probably the most interesting as the focus is only on two players and you can get a better sense of the action with their legs in the shots.

Not sure what focal length lens, but you can just pick the distance where they are right for that focal length (usually on opposite side of the court, which is good because they are always facing you when driving to or shooting at the basket.

South Shore Snapshots

Macushla wrote:

It's been a week since I got my D90. I tried shooting boys Basketball today - first time in manual!!! Shutter 1/200, Aperture 3.2, ISO 640. I was using the focus in the AF-C focusing mode, suggested by Steve (slipkid). I tried using the histogram to get the correct settings.


I would love some C&C. I am very new but eager to get better.

I also have a question about the Autofocus area modes. Anyone have the D90? Usually have it set to Single point. Would dynamic area or auto area be better. I think a lot of my shots are not completely in focus. I'm not exactly clear on when to use which mode. I have read the manual but they all sound like they would be good almost all the time. Any thoughts?

First off, welcome aboard.

Secondly, are you using flash? Most sports shooters - myself included - consider it a big no-no to use onboard flashes for fear (or concern) of potentially blinding the athletes.

Lastly, as the proud owner of a D90, I can tell you this: crank the ISO up to 2000 or higher. Get your shutter speed up to 1/500th or better. Put the AF to continuous. Put the AF zone to center point. Put the rapid fire to a full 4.5 FPS. Shoot in portrait mode and fire away.

Practice Practice Practice.

Most importantly, have fun.

Rob

Basketball samples here:

http://southshoresnapshots.smugmug.com/Sports/Misc/OSU-Buckeyes-v-Windsor-Lancers/9450786_DZnuB#633918000_suG2a

Taken with my Pentax K20D system before I switched, but you get the point.

ole doc

IMO BB is one of the "foot" sports so I try to get the feet, usually off the ground, in the picture. Also, several of the variables go away when you pick your spot and let the action come to you rather than running around the sidelines, never really ready for the next shot.
I think your work is very good especially for early experience. Take the advise on setting your AF. One less thing to worry about (ultimately)
Nick

Gringriff

For your first manual shoot I'd say you are off to a good start. You are getting the bal and faces with good expressions.

Looks like you focal length varied from 70mm to 210mm (based on the info on Picasa) so you probably could get a lot more of the player in the frame shooting vertical (portrait mode) instead of in landscape orientation. I do prefer your portrait orientation shots better on the Picasa page.

I agree with the above posts about not using flash - at least not directly. If you really want to use the flash it would be better to bounce it off the ceiling. I would not like the flash in my face if I was playing.

Also agree that you should raise your shutter speed to reduce motion blur and then raise your ISO to compensate for the decrease exposure. You can operate just on the edge of the ISO limits where noise is just starting to an issue and use NR software to adjust later if the ISO needs to be really high for a SS of 1/400 or 1/500.

Macushla

Wow, thank you all so much for the helpful comments.

South Shore Snapshots wrote:

First off, welcome aboard.

Secondly, are you using flash? Most sports shooters - myself included - consider it a big no-no to use onboard flashes for fear (or concern) of potentially blinding the athletes.

Lastly, as the proud owner of a D90, I can tell you this: crank the ISO up to 2000 or higher. Get your shutter speed up to 1/500th or better. Put the AF to continuous. Put the AF zone to center point. Put the rapid fire to a full 4.5 FPS. Shoot in portrait mode and fire away.

I forgot to mention I was using a flash - SB600. That is why the Shutter speed was set so low. The flash syncs at 1/250 but for some reason I couldn't get it to go higher than 200. I'm sure I have some button locked or something. I will try to fix that. It is my understanding that you can't use the flash at a higher shutter speed because it won't sync - is that right?

Next game I'll try using the settings you suggested and try it without the flash.

ole doc wrote:

IMO BB is one of the "foot" sports so I try to get the feet, usually off the ground, in the picture.
Nick

Totally agree about the feet thing. It is hard with my lens. I will try more in portrait mode. I had the diffuser thing over the flash and I was standing at the corner of the court I stayed in the same spot for the entire game. I was also using a monopod, that lens is really heavy. (it is the only one I have right now)

Gringriff wrote:

I agree with the above posts about not using flash - at least not directly. If you really want to use the flash it would be better to bounce it off the ceiling. I would not like the flash in my face if I was playing.

Also agree that you should raise your shutter speed to reduce motion blur and then raise your ISO to compensate for the decrease exposure. You can operate just on the edge of the ISO limits where noise is just starting to an issue and use NR software to adjust later if the ISO needs to be really high for a SS of 1/400 or 1/500.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try bouncing it off the ceiling - it's pretty high but I'll try it.

tjk60

South Shore Snapshots wrote:

First off, welcome aboard.

Secondly, are you using flash? Most sports shooters - myself included - consider it a big no-no to use onboard flashes for fear (or concern) of potentially blinding the athletes.

Lastly, as the proud owner of a D90, I can tell you this: crank the ISO up to 2000 or higher. Get your shutter speed up to 1/500th or better. Put the AF to continuous. Put the AF zone to center point. Put the rapid fire to a full 4.5 FPS. Shoot in portrait mode and fire away.

Practice Practice Practice.

Most importantly, have fun.

Rob

Basketball samples here:

http://southshoresnapshots.smugmug.com/Sports/Misc/OSU-Buckeyes-v-Windsor-Lancers/9450786_DZnuB#633918000_suG2a

Taken with my Pentax K20D system before I switched, but you get the point.

I disagree, MANY sport shooters use flash. It's been used for years.

Svennie

tjk60 wrote:

I disagree, MANY sport shooters use flash. It's been used for years.

I think it depends on the type of sports you're in and the amount of light needed from the flash. However, in many sports the flash will distract the athlete and if it is not already illegal (like with speed skating contests), it is not advisable. I've done some taekwondo matches: a flash is a big :nono. Speed and reaction are really important and you don't want a big flash in your face when your opponent kicks.
That said: last week I did a junior club championships of my local taekwondo club with 5 - 8 year olds and then a flash isn't a real issue

Macushla

At this point I'm only shooting children in fairly non competitive leagues. I would like to learn with the flash as well as without it with a higher shutter speed. At this point I want to learn everything.

I figured out why I cut so many of the limbs off. Besides the lens limitations I was really concentrating on getting the focus thing in the viewfinder centered on their faces - I really wasn't paying attention to the limbs. Hopefully I'll get better at that.

I also shot wrestling with a flash yesterday. The photos are posted at the end of Noob shoots wrestling.

johng

To summarize on flash vs. non flash based on my experience:

Basketball - used very widely
wrestling - used very widely
swimming - somewhat but never during race start
volleyball - very seldom - not allowed in many places although strobes are making inroads
gymnastics - never
football - 50-50
MMA / martial arts / boxing: never

Gymnastics and to a lesser degree volleyball are the only indoor sports I've seen where flash use is restricted. You just need to use some common sense. And sure bouncing is great IF it can be managed in the given gym - but that's certainly not always the case.

Gringriff

I was at a middle school gym two weeks ago and a mom was there beside me on the baseline shooting with an on board flash aimed right at the players and the ref asked her to stop.

I would think it would be bad to have flash go off right in your face as your driving to the basket that's why I thought the bounced flash might be okay versus directly in your face.

Andy

adbsgicom

This was a dumb luck (bad luck) shot. The light is from his mom's Nikon's pop-up flash on the other side of the court. He missed the shot...

Gringriff

Nice catch - it's like a deer in the headlights.

Svennie

best example of why not to flash I've seen

tjk60

Svennie wrote:

best example of why not to flash I've seen

Why because it OVER EXPOSED his shot? That is not the real life experience.

If you are going to directly flash a player DIRECTLY in their face and do it during a play, you are an idiot. You have no right shooting a sporting event, (let alone procreating)... BUT, if you know how to use your equipment, you should not be bound by people saying "I would THINK it bothers the athlete"

Many of us have been using flash/strobes for years, with no complaints. (except those on the sidelines that THINK it might bother the athletes.)

johng has it about right, BB yes, Hockey, yes, etc....

BTW with cameras like the D3s, the use of strobes will go down, but never disappear. It's not just the quantity of light, but the quality of light...

adbsgicom

FWIW, My post was to simply give some visual context to how much light, even from across court, a direct flash likely run off AUTO mode puts in the face of the player; not whether it is right or wrong. Bounced or diffused flashes seem to be the way to go if you need the extra light.

Svennie

tjk60 wrote:

Why because it OVER EXPOSED his shot? That is not the real life experience.

No, like adbsgicom said: just because it shows how much light is coming from the flash.

tjk60 wrote:

If you are going to directly flash a player DIRECTLY in their face and do it during a play, you are an idiot. You have no right shooting a sporting event, (let alone procreating)... BUT, if you know how to use your equipment, you should not be bound by people saying "I would THINK it bothers the athlete"

Many of us have been using flash/strobes for years, with no complaints. (except those on the sidelines that THINK it might bother the athletes.)

I must agree: there are plenty of sports where you can use flash if a) you know what you're doing and b) don't interfere with the game. And like the picture showed the person standing in front of the boy does neither. Again, that was my point.

Ekaj

I see no issues at all using flash, but why don't you move it off camera. A powerful flash up high would be of no concern to the players.

johng

Ekaj wrote:

I see no issues at all using flash, but why don't you move it off camera. A powerful flash up high would be of no concern to the players.

Great question. I'm going to assume you mean completely off camera and not just on a bracket. There are definite benefits as you said. But there are some obstacles:

1. Even light coverage - you can't light the whole court (or even half the court) with a single speedlight positioned above
2. Introducing radio triggers which is more money
3. Security / liability - now you're talking about clamping a device that could possibly fall or get knocked off. That's more of a liability concern for you and the school. Sure it's unlikely but it's something you have to factor in to your decision process. Also, as such, schools are a bit more leary about allowing you to do this type of setup. Not an issue if you have an established relationship with the school.

4. Setup locations - again unless you have multiple speedlights (4) you are only going to be able to strobe 1 end of the court and possibly only part of that end very well. Even if you do have multiple flashes - are there places in all 4 corners for you to set up and clamp to?

No doubt strobes provide the best images - even if the strobes are speedlights (assuming they're powerful enough). But the above considerations are a start when determining whether or not you want to invest in the equipment / time necessary.

Gringriff

adbsgicom wrote:

This was a dumb luck (bad luck) shot. The light is from his mom's Nikon's pop-up flash on the other side of the court. He missed the shot...

I just noticed - maybe that's why the score was 16 to 1!

Andy

adbsgicom

Gringriff wrote:

I just noticed - maybe that's why the score was 16 to 1!

Andy

He's on the winning team...They lost to them in a close game earlier, and then their superstar was sick this day, and we blew them out.

Ekaj

johng wrote:

Great question. I'm going to assume you mean completely off camera and not just on a bracket. There are definite benefits as you said. But there are some obstacles:

1. Even light coverage - you can't light the whole court (or even half the court) with a single speedlight positioned above
2. Introducing radio triggers which is more money
3. Security / liability - now you're talking about clamping a device that could possibly fall or get knocked off. That's more of a liability concern for you and the school. Sure it's unlikely but it's something you have to factor in to your decision process. Also, as such, schools are a bit more leary about allowing you to do this type of setup. Not an issue if you have an established relationship with the school.

4. Setup locations - again unless you have multiple speedlights (4) you are only going to be able to strobe 1 end of the court and possibly only part of that end very well. Even if you do have multiple flashes - are there places in all 4 corners for you to set up and clamp to?

No doubt strobes provide the best images - even if the strobes are speedlights (assuming they're powerful enough). But the above considerations are a start when determining whether or not you want to invest in the equipment / time necessary.

1. of course you don't use only one speedlight... 4-6 would do the whole court easily, or 2-3 on half

2. How else would you trigger it. I didn't realize we were only considering photographing on a low budget

3. Manfrotto super clamps are perfectly suited for this, they easily hold strobe and battery pack

4. Most gyms will have bleachers on both sides of the court, lots of places to set up on those.

If you're going to spend the time shooting it, might as well do it right. You can get strobe + clamp for ~$60.00. Then all you need are the triggers. Pocket wizards will set you back but they will last forever. Ebay triggers are cheap but less reliable.

johng

Ekaj wrote:

If you're going to spend the time shooting it, might as well do it right.

Ekaj,

thanks for joining in. I'm sure it would be helpful for other shooters here, since you're a proponent of this approach and "doing it right" if you could share some of your basketball shots showing the results. Look forward to seeing your shots - I'm sure they will help people here out.

Gringriff

adbsgicom wrote:

He's on the winning team...They lost to them in a close game earlier, and then their superstar was sick this day, and we blew them out.

Cool!

johng wrote:

Ekaj,
...if you could share some of your basketball shots showing the results. Look forward to seeing your shots - I'm sure they will help people here out.

I must agree that some of the best basketball shots I've seen have been by those guys using the strobes. Done right it can make a huge difference. Would love to see more of those posted.

Andy

adbsgicom

johng wrote:

Ekaj,

thanks for joining in. I'm sure it would be helpful for other shooters here, since you're a proponent of this approach and "doing it right" if you could share some of your basketball shots showing the results. Look forward to seeing your shots - I'm sure they will help people here out.

Also in the spirit of learning to do it right, if you had a picture from far out where we could see your placement/orientation that would be incredibly helpful.

Mike J

adbsgicom wrote:

Also in the spirit of learning to do it right, if you had a picture from far out where we could see your placement/orientation that would be incredibly helpful.

Some of the best BB shots using strobes that I've seen can be found at this link: http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=259044

He explains his 3 strobe set-up here: http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=208849

tjk60

Mike J wrote:

Some of the best BB shots using strobes that I've seen can be found at this link: http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=259044

He explains his 3 strobe set-up here: http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=208849

Glenn is certainly one that has the touch!

Macushla

Mike J wrote:

Some of the best BB shots using strobes that I've seen can be found at this link: http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=259044

Wow! Those are impressive.

Mike J

Macushla wrote:

Wow! Those are impressive.

Here's what can be done with no strobes when you have more light and a camera that has low noise at high ISO settings (and all the talent that Mike has:D):
http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?t=260793

Macushla

Those are amazing too!!!

Thank you all so much for all of your insightful comments.

OK Back to me. :skippy Keep in mind how new I am - I have only had the DSLR camera for less than a month. Equipment in my signature. I have no aspirations to become a professional photographer and setting up multiple lights in the gym bleachers is beyond me.

I am saving up for a second lens that has a wider angle but right now I only have the one.

So keeping that in mind do you think that Rob's suggestion here is the best way for me to shoot the next BB game?

South Shore Snapshots wrote:

Lastly, as the proud owner of a D90, I can tell you this: crank the ISO up to 2000 or higher. Get your shutter speed up to 1/500th or better. Put the AF to continuous. Put the AF zone to center point. Put the rapid fire to a full 4.5 FPS. Shoot in portrait mode and fire away.

I was planning on trying this method at the next game. I could try out some other settings also.

I did poll the kids last night when I picked my son up from practice and none of them noticed / were bothered by the flash. I was all the way in the corner of the gym by the wall - pretty far from the basket and I had the flash on -3 so it was not at full strength.

I do want to learn how to take indoor sports photos without the flash though.

So... any other suggestions?

Ekaj

johng wrote:

Ekaj,

thanks for joining in. I'm sure it would be helpful for other shooters here, since you're a proponent of this approach and "doing it right" if you could share some of your basketball shots showing the results. Look forward to seeing your shots - I'm sure they will help people here out.

I don't shoot basketball, but that is how I would if I did. If you need more elaboration on what I posted, I believe there was a strobist article on it. It would probably come up on a google search.