First Manual BB

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Comments

  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited February 9, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    lens that has a wider angle but right now I only have the one.

    So keeping that in mind do you think that Rob's suggestion here is the best way for me to shoot the next BB game?

    Not while using flash. No need to use ISO 2000 - that's the benefit of using flash, not having to use high ISO.

    Now, if you wish to try WITHOUT flash then I think you'll find ISO 2000 too low at f2.8. Start at ISO 3200, 1/400 and f2.8. If shots are too dark then raise the ISO higher.
  • GringriffGringriff Registered Users Posts: 340 Major grins
    edited February 9, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    OK Back to me. :skippy Keep in mind how new I am - I have only had the DSLR camera for less than a month. Equipment in my signature.

    I am saving up for a second lens that has a wider angle but right now I only have the one.

    So... any other suggestions?

    If basketball is the or one of the main goals then I am not sure you really need a wider angle lens. Instead a "faster" lens like a 85mm f/1.8 (what I use in Canon - not sure the Nikon equivalent) might be better suited, if you want to work without the flash. Or if you really want a little wider angle the 50mm (1.4 or 1.8) can work good from the baselines.

    Andy
    Andy
    http://andygriffinphoto.com/
    http://andygriffin.smugmug.com/
    Canon 7D, 70-200mm L, 50 and 85 primes, Tamron 17-50, 28-135
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 12, 2010
    Gringriff wrote:
    If basketball is the or one of the main goals then I am not sure you really need a wider angle lens. Instead a "faster" lens like a 85mm f/1.8 (what I use in Canon - not sure the Nikon equivalent) might be better suited, if you want to work without the flash. Or if you really want a little wider angle the 50mm (1.4 or 1.8) can work good from the baselines.

    Andy

    Just got a second lens for Valentines day. To me, From me, iloveyou.gif me.

    It is a Nikon 50mm F1.8. Man is it tiny compared to my 70-210. I've been playing around with it, so far so good. Tomorrow I have 6 BB games with the kids so I'll have plenty of opportunity to practice.
    johng wrote:
    Now, if you wish to try WITHOUT flash then I think you'll find ISO 2000 too low at f2.8. Start at ISO 3200, 1/400 and f2.8. If shots are too dark then raise the ISO higher.

    John - I'm planning on trying the settings you suggested and going from there. I am also going to try to bounce the flash off the ceiling and see how that goes.

    I'll post results if there is something decent to post. Thanks again for all of your help.
  • GringriffGringriff Registered Users Posts: 340 Major grins
    edited February 12, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    Just got a second lens for Valentines day. To me, From me, iloveyou.gif me.

    It is a Nikon 50mm F1.8. Man is it tiny compared to my 70-210.

    Congrats on the new glass. It certainly is a lot lighter. Good luck tomorrow, I am afraid our games may get canceled as snow is coming overnight.

    Remember to use portrait or vertical mode a bunch to get more of the player in the shot and with the 50 you will need to be patient and wait for the action to get closer. Hopefully, you can post some examples soon. I have a friend who also has the D90 and he is looking for what lens(es) to get next and I tell him I know nothing about Nikon, so it is nice to show him the shots of others.

    Andy
    Andy
    http://andygriffinphoto.com/
    http://andygriffin.smugmug.com/
    Canon 7D, 70-200mm L, 50 and 85 primes, Tamron 17-50, 28-135
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited February 12, 2010
    yep - be patient with that lens - wait until they're within about 15 feet. So there isn't much of a working range on it.
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    Here are my shots from today. I used the 50mm 1.8 lens. That worked out much better than my big lens. At least the heads and feet are not cut off. ISO 2500 for all of them. F1.8 - 2.8 depending on the gym and shutter from 800 - 1250 depending on the photo. One of the gyms was particularly bright today so that was good. No flash.

    OK, besides getting them exposed properly it is really hard to get nice composition on the fly. Hopefully I'll get better at that once I have the technical stuff down. I'm still pretty disappointed with the focus. I had the autofocus set to C for continuous and the focus point set to dynamic range because more often than not the center point was not on a person so I was getting the background in focus. Most of them are out of focus and I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Any thoughts?

    1.DSC_0064.JPG

    2. DSC_0131.JPG

    3. DSC_0297.JPG

    Here are the rest.
    C&C desperately needed.
  • rainbowrainbow Registered Users Posts: 2,765 Major grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    I used the 50mm 1.8 lens. That worked out much better than my big lens. ISO 2500 for all of them. F1.8 - 2.8 depending on the gym and shutter from 800 - 1250 depending on the photo.

    I had the autofocus set to C for continuous and the focus point set to dynamic range because more often than not the center point was not on a person so I was getting the background in focus. Most of them are out of focus and I really don't know what I'm doing wrong.

    My recommendations to experiment with: Target shutter speed of around 1/500 and open your lens up to f/2. Now adjust your ISO down (to reduce the noise and image degradation to get this SS/aperture. Use center focus point only and make sure whoever you are shooting (usually one with the ball) is in the center of the frame while shooting in portrait mode. Don't worry about composition -- make up for it by shooting quantity for now AND cropping to suit you on the ones you like.

    Keep shooting and posting. You should improve quickly!
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    rainbow wrote:
    You should improve quickly!

    I just love an optimist! I'll try your suggestions.
  • South Shore SnapshotsSouth Shore Snapshots Registered Users Posts: 140 Major grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    I just love an optimist! I'll try your suggestions.

    Remember too that with sports, any sports but especially fast moving / angle changing ones like basketball, that your hit to keep ratio is going to be relatively low compared to what you might otherwise average.

    Call it being modest, or realistic - it is what it is.

    I fully agree with the poster above though, shoot to fill your card (quantity) in the short term while working towards the "better" shots (quality) in the longer term.
    Nikon D90 | MB-D80 GRIP | 80-200mm F2.8 | 50mm F1.8 | Tamron 28-75mm F2.8 | SB 400

    Pentax K1000 | M28mm F2.8 | M50mm F2 | Takumar Bayonet 135mm F2.5

    www.southshoresnapshots.smugmug.com
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    I shot 340 shots today. Those were the 64 best ones but really there isn't one that is really good. rolleyes1.gif I know it's sad.

    I'm shaking it off and remaining optimistic for tomorrow.
  • MNGirlMNGirl Registered Users Posts: 46 Big grins
    edited February 13, 2010
    I'm going to chime in here as a non-expert, but someone who has been taking basketball photos for the last couple of years. This is the first year I've taken my camera out of sports mode and went into full manual mode (actually only since the Christmas holidays).

    I took in a 2 day basketball tournament where I could take tons of photos of games that I didn't care whether I messed up the pictures or not. Then I could try different settings and check out the results. I would suggest doing this if you can - it sure improved my photos.

    Until a week ago I was using a Pentax *istDL w/ a Tamaron 70-200mm f/2.8 lens. Last week I got a Pentax K-x (love it!!!).

    I'm taking photos of high school basketball games and I have found the best spot is to plant myself on the floor on the sidelines at one end of the court. Preferrably out of the main traffic area. :-) With the 200mm I can still get decent shots at the far end of the court and I can get some nice tight shots of the basket in front of me w/ the 70mm. I love getting shots of the guys when they go up for the rebounds. As someone mentioned before, try and get the floor in the picture to show how far they are jumping off the floor.

    I do not shoot with a flash. With the *istDL I could usually set my speed at 200-250 and ISO at 3200 and aperature f/2.8. The key thing for me was getting the white balance right so everything didn't look yellow! I learned that my camera had a manual WB setting which made all the difference once I understood how to use it!

    With the Pentax K-x I did a few games this past week w/ 1/500, ISO 6400, f/2.8 and I'm going to compare the noise with the ISO 3200 images to see. The faster speed is nice.

    Shooting in portrait mode is a must - I didn't start that until recently either. My pictures look so much better now that I'm shooting everything that way.

    I also take a ton of photos (sometimes for varsity close to 700) - and alot of them end up in the delete bucket. But it's great when you get a really great shot!

    You can check them all out at http://www.shetekphoto.com/Boys-Basketball.

    Good luck!
    Wendy
    www.ShetekPhoto.com
    www.TMBSports.com

    Pentax K-x
    Pentax *istDL
    Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
    Pentax 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
    Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    MNGirl wrote:
    The key thing for me was getting the white balance right so everything didn't look yellow! I learned that my camera had a manual WB setting which made all the difference once I understood how to use it!

    With the Pentax K-x I did a few games this past week w/ 1/500, ISO 6400, f/2.8 and I'm going to compare the noise with the ISO 3200 images to see. The faster speed is nice.

    Wendy - thanks for all your helpful comments. I had some major problems with white balance (mostly with wrestling). I'm still working on that also.

    I'd love to see the comparisons with the ISO 6400 and 3200 feel free to post them here or link wherever you do post them. If I really like a photo I have been running it through Noiseware to reduce the noise - I'm still learning how to use that also so sometimes I do loose a bit of the clarity.

    This is much harder than I thought it would be but I'm determined.
  • GringriffGringriff Registered Users Posts: 340 Major grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    Looks like you are making some changes in the right direction. I like these more than you initial set. I agree with Rainbow that your shutter speed can come down a little. At this age of players 1/500 should be fast enough. Most of the ones I checked on your site were between 1/800 and 1/1250. During those day games with the extra light you can go 1/500 and drop the ISO which will reduce the noise. Have you tried any Noise Reduction on any of these?

    Another thing you may want to start trying with the center point focus is using the back button focus. That way you can press it several times as the player is coming toward you and then when you snap the focus range will be with the player instead of the background.

    I think your colors look pretty good. I always struggle with WB in our gym which is ancient.

    One final note - many of these could benefit from rotating the image to get it level. Easiest thing to use is a vertical clue like a wall corner or door frame or even the backboard support. In PP just use those clues to rotate the image.

    Keep shooting and posting!

    Andy
    Andy
    http://andygriffinphoto.com/
    http://andygriffin.smugmug.com/
    Canon 7D, 70-200mm L, 50 and 85 primes, Tamron 17-50, 28-135
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    Gringriff wrote:
    Looks like you are making some changes in the right direction. I like these more than you initial set. I agree with Rainbow that your shutter speed can come down a little. At this age of players 1/500 should be fast enough. Most of the ones I checked on your site were between 1/800 and 1/1250. During those day games with the extra light you can go 1/500 and drop the ISO which will reduce the noise. Have you tried any Noise Reduction on any of these?

    One final note - many of these could benefit from rotating the image to get it level. Easiest thing to use is a vertical clue like a wall corner or door frame or even the backboard support. In PP just use those clues to rotate the image.

    Keep shooting and posting!

    Andy

    I do have the noiseware plugin for photoshop elements. I did not use it on any of these. I edited some of them very quickly in iPhoto, most are straight from the camera. I figured that would be the best way for everyone to see what I'm getting. I really didn't think any of these were really worth the trouble of seriously editing them.
    Gringriff wrote:
    Another thing you may want to start trying with the center point focus is using the back button focus. That way you can press it several times as the player is coming toward you and then when you snap the focus range will be with the player instead of the background.

    What is the back button focus? I'm not familiar with that term - how do you do it? I have been using the continuous autofocus mode with the dynamic range option.
  • adbsgicomadbsgicom Registered Users Posts: 3,615 Major grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    What is the back button focus? I'm not familiar with that term - how do you do it? I have been using the continuous autofocus mode with the dynamic range option.
    This got a whole bunch of coverage over in Technique last week. Click here. Basically, it using the button on the back of the camera to control AF, and making the shutter button just do shutter. It would get set through one of the customization bits on your camera.
    - Andrew

    Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
    My SmugMug Site
  • MNGirlMNGirl Registered Users Posts: 46 Big grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    Wendy - thanks for all your helpful comments. I had some major problems with white balance (mostly with wrestling). I'm still working on that also.

    I'd love to see the comparisons with the ISO 6400 and 3200 feel free to post them here or link wherever you do post them. If I really like a photo I have been running it through Noiseware to reduce the noise - I'm still learning how to use that also so sometimes I do loose a bit of the clarity.

    This is much harder than I thought it would be but I'm determined.

    Stick with it - it is so worth it! I've been working on sports photography for 5+ years, since my nephews were in grade school, but workng more in the last year to really improve. Outside is much easier (assuming a sunny day). I'm assuming your shooting photos of your own kid(s) and you'll have plenty of years to get better! Two years ago I splurged on the 70-200mm f/2.8 lens just so I could shoot BB photos. It was worth the money!

    Once I understood the concept of setting the white balance manually (I hadn't had good luck w/ using the presets) I was just using a white piece of paper. That did pretty good. A month ago I spent the money on a set of white/black/grey cards (a set of three on a lanyard). Once I get my white balance set I then take a photo of the three cards fanned out. Then, if I need to tweak my images in Photoshop/Lightroom I can use those images to identify an accurate white/grey/black image and can then 'fix' my images if still necessary.

    In looking at my photos from last week I think the 1/200, ISO 3200 is over exposing my images - they are just too bright. 1/250 is much better.

    I am just now evaluating the Imagenomic Noiseware software so I can get cleaning images. Just downloaded a trial copy last night.
    Wendy
    www.ShetekPhoto.com
    www.TMBSports.com

    Pentax K-x
    Pentax *istDL
    Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
    Pentax 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
    Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 14, 2010
    For some reason I just couldn't get the settings right so I switched to sports mode on the camera. rolleyes1.gif I put the camera back in center point focus - Last time I had it on dynamic range. I took 320 shots and got 60 that are not completely out of focus.

    I finally got a few photos that I'm happy with. Sadly my kid is not in any of them but that's OK.

    1. Ever watch 10 year olds play BB - it is one jump ball pile up after another. DSC_0035.JPG

    2. Again, I love how they are all piled up in one corner.
    DSC_0199.JPG

    3.
    DSC_0171.JPG

    4.
    DSC_0098.JPG

    Here are the rest:
    http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/BrendanBb_2#

    Any thoughts? (besides it is a little sad that this is how I spent my Valentine's day) : )
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 15, 2010
    You're probably all sick to death of me but I have a few more from today's game. I went back to manual. I don't want to get all cocky here but I think I'm getting a little bit better! :D

    1.
    DSC_0050.JPG

    2.
    DSC_0108.JPG

    3.
    DSC_0116.JPG

    Here are the rest:
    http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/BlueBBFeb15#

    C&C always appreciated.
  • ole docole doc Registered Users Posts: 70 Big grins
    edited February 16, 2010
    I like them. Keep up the good work. Even some of those that were less than perfectly focused would be treasures to the parents of the boys involved...just maybe not Sports Illustrated quality. I am impressed how you have progressed in such a short period.
    Nick
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 16, 2010
    Hey Nick - Yea the focus is still a problem. I'm happy that the exposure and the colors are getting better. Not sure how to improve the focus thing.
  • MNGirlMNGirl Registered Users Posts: 46 Big grins
    edited February 16, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    I'd love to see the comparisons with the ISO 6400 and 3200 feel free to post them here or link wherever you do post them.

    The two shots were at the same game, same settings expect for shutter speed and ISO.
    1. 1/250, ISO 3200
    788624272_UubsV-L-1.jpg

    2. 1/500, ISO 6400
    788649941_To4CW-L-1.jpg

    I have not yet attempted any Noiseware software, but I did download a demo and need to see what I can do. I can see more noise in the 2nd image. Sure alot less than with my previous camera, but still visible to the eye. I think I'll stick w/ 1/200-1/250 and ISO 3200 at the BB games when the lighting will allow it. In looking at my results I can't say that I got better pictures due to the faster speed.

    Question for everyone else... I have never used flash because I figured that would slow down the responsiveness of my camera when trying to capture fast action. I'm using a Pentax K-x. Plus I was always worried about bothering the players with my flash (which I'm no longer concerned about after reading this thread).

    Also after seeing more pictures in the Sports section I have gotten alot more critical of my own photos and realized I'm not getting a ton of photos that are good enough for printing (though some parents may still like them as they are better than anything else they'd get).
    Wendy
    www.ShetekPhoto.com
    www.TMBSports.com

    Pentax K-x
    Pentax *istDL
    Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
    Pentax 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
    Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited February 16, 2010
    Wendy - my advice is to start a new thread with your photos so each person can get specific advice / critique. And yes, it can be a bit intimidating when you step out and seek peer review. But trust me, you'll get a lot better a lot faster by getting that review and advice from other sports shooters
  • MacushlaMacushla Registered Users Posts: 347 Major grins
    edited February 16, 2010
    MNGirl wrote:
    In looking at my results I can't say that I got better pictures due to the faster speed.

    Thanks for the examples. Yea, I would have thought the faster the shutter the better for sports but really doesn't seem to be the case.

    I ran your photo through Noiseware just to see how it would come out, I hope you don't mind. I'm not an expert with that either so take it as results from a noob. You can see the biggest difference on the brown thing in the background.

    788649941_To4CW-L-1.jpg
    MNGirl wrote:
    Question for everyone else... I have never used flash because I figured that would slow down the responsiveness of my camera when trying to capture fast action. I'm using a Pentax K-x. Plus I was always worried about bothering the players with my flash (which I'm no longer concerned about after reading this thread).
    One of the things I like better about going without the flash is the ability to take multiple pictures, like a burst, I forget what that is called. With the flash you do have to wait a few seconds before you can take a second shot. Since I'm not that great with my timing yet it helps to have multiple shots of a particular play.
    MNGirl wrote:
    Also after seeing more pictures in the Sports section I have gotten alot more critical of my own photos and realized I'm not getting a ton of photos that are good enough for printing (though some parents may still like them as they are better than anything else they'd get).

    Ha ha, me too. I'm so frustrated by some of these photos but the other parents think they are great. headscratch.gif Someday I hope to be worthy of their praise, I have a long way to go!
  • MNGirlMNGirl Registered Users Posts: 46 Big grins
    edited February 17, 2010
    Macushla wrote:
    I ran your photo through Noiseware just to see how it would come out, I hope you don't mind. I'm not an expert with that either so take it as results from a noob. You can see the biggest difference on the brown thing in the background.

    Laughing.gif - yea, that 'brown thing in the background' is the ceiling of our gym! No getting away from that! I did the same thing last night with Noiseware Pro - and was pleased enough with the improvement, even when just using the defaults, that I purchased it!
    Macushla wrote:
    One of the things I like better about going without the flash is the ability to take multiple pictures, like a burst, I forget what that is called. With the flash you do have to wait a few seconds before you can take a second shot. Since I'm not that great with my timing yet it helps to have multiple shots of a particular play.

    Yes! That is the other reason I don't use flash. It's really great when I can get several shots off right after another - like during the tip-off of the game or when one of the guys steals the ball and heads down the court.

    I really am enjoying taking the basketball photos this year. Just remember to go back and look at your older photos once in a while - it reminds you that you really have improved more than you think!

    Enjoy the rest of the season. I'm down to just 3 more games. Then a month break before baseball season starts. That is if the snow ever melts!
    Wendy
    www.ShetekPhoto.com
    www.TMBSports.com

    Pentax K-x
    Pentax *istDL
    Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
    Pentax 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
    Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4
  • MNGirlMNGirl Registered Users Posts: 46 Big grins
    edited February 17, 2010
    johng wrote:
    Wendy - my advice is to start a new thread with your photos so each person can get specific advice / critique. And yes, it can be a bit intimidating when you step out and seek peer review. But trust me, you'll get a lot better a lot faster by getting that review and advice from other sports shooters

    Thanks John. I just put these out there quick in reference to the comparison between the different ISOs as Macushla wanted to see the difference as part of this thread discussion.

    I will start up a new thread later this week related to C&C on my own BB photos. I think I may need to tweak my camera settings for focusing on the new Pentax K-x... so will see how that helps after tomorrow nights game.
    Wendy
    www.ShetekPhoto.com
    www.TMBSports.com

    Pentax K-x
    Pentax *istDL
    Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
    Pentax 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
    Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4
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