Whipping Post: Self Policing

XO-Studios · August 7, 2005

To All,

I will be the stick in the mud.

When we first got treated to this new forum The Whipping Post, it was great, I loved the original setup.

A forum not like any of the others that was purely for critiquing pictures. Any subject but with a couple of rules, one of them being ONE picture/week.

All the other forums allow you to post to your hearts content, and solicit feedback, however the setup for the whipping post was (to my understanding) was to limit the sheer amount of posts/pictures and as such solicit very explicit well thought out feedback.

Lately, even though Sid (and others including Andy) doing a great job at moderating, we are all adults, we should have no need to be policed, we should police ourselves.

So here it is, my plea, for us to safe Whipping Post and it's original intent.

XO,

ps. this is by no mean pointed at or meant to a single individual, it is just a general feedback.

gubbs · August 9, 2005

Am I being thick? (probably

) I don't quite get what your moaning about or what your asking for

mercphoto · August 9, 2005

gubbs wrote:

Am I being thick? (probably ) I don't quite get what your moaning about or what your asking for

I read his remark that some one (or some people) are posting more than one image per week to the Whipping Post. The WP should be a low-volume thing to give time for honest, thoughtful feedback.

XO-Studios · August 9, 2005

mercphoto wrote:

gubbs wrote:

Am I being thick? (probably ) I don't quite get what your moaning about or what your asking for

I read his remark that some one (or some people) are posting more than one image per week to the Whipping Post. The WP should be a low-volume thing to give time for honest, thoughtful feedback.

This is the exact issue, and I realize it is somewhat of a pet peeve, but I get the feeling that the original intent is slowly drifting away, and the whipping post just becomes a 'just-like-the-other' forums.

XO,

Higgmeister · August 9, 2005

I agree XO. I've seen the change too and it didn't take very long. It should be a place where you'd put your best shot up and see if it can be improved upon.

When searching for a photo home (now DGrin), I checked out a lot of online photo sites. Some had a critiques forum and most were filled up with "good shot", "wow", "cool" which is of little help to the poster. It would be nice to see our "Whipping Post" not become one of these.

No ideas on what we can do about it but educate those using it. Wonder how many people have actually read the rules.

Good thread, but I also wonder how many people will read it

. I think this is the first time I've been in this forum, this thread caught my attention.

Sorry that I don't have any substance to add, just agreeing,
Chris

wxwax · August 9, 2005

I don't see a lot of "great shot" posts in there.

I reckon the forum's a wee bit slow - be nice if more people contributed opinions. That, I think, is by far the bigger issue.

Because it's slow, I haven't kept much track of one post per week rule. I'll start to watch it.

To be honest, I haven't thought of it as a problem, or of the forum as being diluted... precisely bcause it is a bit on the slow side.

But as I said, I'll keep an eye on it.

Steve Cavigliano · August 9, 2005

wxwax wrote:

I don't see a lot of "great shot" posts in there. I reckon the forum's a wee bit slow - be nice if more people contributed opinions. That, I think, is by far the bigger issue.

This is mostly your fault Sid. If your critiques weren't so thorough and right on the mark, maybe others could post more than an

with Sid comment

You are right though. More folks need to stop by and drop their 2 cents into a thread or two per day. Even if it is only a rehash of someone elses opinions

I know I should stop there more often

Thanks for the headsup XO

Steve

ginger_55 · August 9, 2005

Until my last post on The Whip, just a few days ago, I had only had negative experiences with that place. I knew about the one post per week, I even asked Andy if I could post a shot early. No dice, as the critiques took so much time, etc, that one a week was the rule.

At that point I had posted twice on that site, "fixing", critiqueing my posts did not take any time. I think I had one short response for each post. Granted that did not hurt be badly, but it did disprove the theory of a time consuming forum.

Subsequently, I did not post on it, as I knew I could not get special dispensation to post early, and I thought I might need it for something for the challenge, or something. That, indeed did happen. I did get enough posts, not too time consuming, but someone spent a lot of time helping me by changing the crop.

I am not sure of the exact day I posted, but I am aware I have to wait until next weekend to post again. Maybe others aren't aware of that "rule". I did feel that my posts in other places were getting more attention. I also felt that in general there were better ways/places to get help.

Except when I came up with a picture I really wanted fixed, was exhausted and out of ideas. Then I did not know where else to turn. So, I did put it on the whipping post, it was the pelican with the fish in its mouth. I did not enter it in the challenge, but I did learn some things.

I guess I am venting, too. I know I have followed THE RULE, and I don't feel the whipping post has been for me as advertised. Granted I was helped Saturday night I think it was. But it was over with, the helping, by Sunday. A relatively short period of time. I don't know what more anyone could have done, I just know that I am not taking up anyone's time excessively on that forum. I take more time when I start stressing about something else, somewhere else. And I still could not get dispensation to post again one day early. I guess I should not have known the rule.

On the other hand, I don't know how to help someone if I don't know what their problem is. I just looked at a post on there. I had two thoughts, "what do you want" and could you please post "bigger", but I really did think it was a "post for praise", which I do, too. But if I ever did it on the whipping post, I no longer do.

ginger

wxwax · August 9, 2005

"Post for praise".

I like that, Ginger.

Sounds like your beef is that you didn't get enough feedback in the whipping post. As I said, I agree that if we could get more folks to feel free enough to say exactly what they think, the amount of useful feedback would go way up.

Andy · August 9, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

Until my last post on The Whip, just a few days ago, I had only had negative experiences with that place. I knew about the one post per week, I even asked Andy if I could post a shot early. No dice, as the critiques took so much time, etc, that one a week was the rule.

At that point I had posted twice on that site, "fixing", critiqueing my posts did not take any time. I think I had one short response for each post. Granted that did not hurt be badly, but it did disprove the theory of a time consuming forum.

Subsequently, I did not post on it, as I knew I could not get special dispensation to post early, and I thought I might need it for something for the challenge, or something. That, indeed did happen. I did get enough posts, not too time consuming, but someone spent a lot of time helping me by changing the crop.

I am not sure of the exact day I posted, but I am aware I have to wait until next weekend to post again. Maybe others aren't aware of that "rule". I did feel that my posts in other places were getting more attention. I also felt that in general there were better ways/places to get help.

Except when I came up with a picture I really wanted fixed, was exhausted and out of ideas. Then I did not know where else to turn. So, I did put it on the whipping post, it was the pelican with the fish in its mouth. I did not enter it in the challenge, but I did learn some things.

I guess I am venting, too. I know I have followed THE RULE, and I don't feel the whipping post has been for me as advertised. Granted I was helped Saturday night I think it was. But it was over with, the helping, by Sunday. A relatively short period of time. I don't know what more anyone could have done, I just know that I am not taking up anyone's time excessively on that forum. I take more time when I start stressing about something else, somewhere else. And I still could not get dispensation to post again one day early. I guess I should not have known the rule.

On the other hand, I don't know how to help someone if I don't know what their problem is. I just looked at a post on there. I had two thoughts, "what do you want" and could you please post "bigger", but I really did think it was a "post for praise", which I do, too. But if I ever did it on the whipping post, I no longer do.

ginger

c'mon ginger, your being hard on the dgrin membership - i've followed the whipping post and many many folks have contributed meaningful critique to yours, and others, posts there on the whipping post.

was this a negative experience?

how about this? i know for a fact that luke, who cannot even type with his hands, put a lot of time into that critique...

seems like this thread caught a lot of attention.....

remember, the whipping post is most decidely *not* just for the whippee! it's for the entire membership to learn and grow from. by reading & learning, and by critiquing as well.

as with everything, it's better when all contribute. we can all learn to critique, there's a thread even stuck there in the whipping post, to help folks to learn how to critique.

on the post you just referred to, you should post that to the poster! the whipping post is "no holds barred!" let it fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rohirrim · August 9, 2005

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

You are right though. More folks need to stop by and drop their 2 cents into a thread or two per day. Even if it is only a rehash of someone elses opinions

Many of us (me) don't really feel qualified to critique. Is it the intention of the Whipping Post to have anyone critique?

For those posters that are asking for help with images, perhaps a better spot would be the "Theory, How to" Forum to get help with obvious problems (color casts, focus issues etc.)

Regards,

Andy · August 9, 2005

wxwax wrote:

"Post for praise". I like that, Ginger.

Sounds like your beef is that you didn't get enough feedback in the whipping post. As I said, I agree that if we could get more folks to feel free enough to say exactly what they think, the amount of useful feedback would go way up.

:bigbs there are lots of folks who *are* taking the time to provide considerate, thoughtful, constructive critique. yes, we can always use more, and certainly some posts / posters get more responses than others, but in general, i see some really fine contributions - and we could all remember, that the whipping post is not just for the whippee to benefit from - it's for everyone

Andy · August 9, 2005

Rohirrim wrote:

Many of us (me) don't really feel qualified to critique. Is it the intention of the Whipping Post to have anyone critique?

For those posters that are asking for help with images, perhaps a better spot would be the "Theory, How to" Forum to get help with obvious problems (color casts, focus issues etc.)

Regards,

you *can* critique - read the "how to critique" sticky post and give it a shot - even if it's just to say how the image makes you feel, or react. if you think the image sucks more than your electrolux, say so! you can critique, i promise you

ps:

JamesJWeg · August 9, 2005

My extent to of messing up on this one was posting two pics in the one thread I have started there, and that was due to not reading the sticky's. :bash It was nicly pointed out to me and I will not do that again. Since it's been a week on my last one I think I'll go post another.

James.

Angelo · August 9, 2005

my 2 cents: I think the creation of the WP was a brilliant idea. Even if a few (VERY few) have not paid attention to the 1PPW rule, most of the critiques there have been meaningful, polite and instructive.

I've only posted there twice and I've appreciated the feedback I've gotten on those shots.

I've only given a little feedback to others there when I felt qualified to do so but I've read much and enjoyed the learning experience.

I hope we don't attempt to pump up the volume in WP. We, me included, do enough of the "great shot" stuff in all the other forums.

Let's honor the intent of WP. I'd rather have 1 really good, informative critique then a thread full of pats on the back.

What would be nice though... if the pros here, who we seek guidance from, would balance their thread visits, comments and critiques to a wider audience of members.

ginger_55 · August 10, 2005

andy wrote:

c'mon ginger, your being hard on the dgrin membership - i've followed the whipping post and many many folks have contributed meaningful critique to yours, and others, posts there on the whipping post.

was this a negative experience?

That was great, it just didn't last long enough to be said to have taken more time than most posts I do on other forums. Content was wonderful. "Praise Content". (I did not say that the responses were negative, or I did not mean to say that, I meant to say that there were not enough of them in enough depth to have taken much more time than are expended on my stuff in a regular forum.) I have a thread going now on the nature thread, it is getting a lot of play, you even responded. It is taking people's time. It is kind of a problem thread, but The Whip is not the only place to ask for help or information, so I did.

The responses to that backlit photo were great, as I said. Just not an in depth thing. NOt that it needed to be, in retrospect. However, if I can only post one a week because of the amt of time each of mine takes, well mine haven't taken oodles of time, yet.

how about this? i know for a fact that luke, who cannot even type with his hands, put a lot of time into that critique...

That was a good thorough critique. Actually, I don't know why I posted that. It was not my favorite shot I did of that evening. I really do think it was a praise post. Luke's response was very thorough. Maybe no one had anything to add. It was interesting to read his take on my photo, since I knew that I liked it, I did not agree with all he said, but then I respected his opinion as an artist.

It might have been a huge undertaking for him, but it still was not a week's worth of everyone's time, IMO. I have seen other posts there go on and on. But not many, most seem to just kind of die. I remember months ago watching and participating, just a bit, was kind of over my head, for pages working on a problem post. As I said I don't put praise posts anymore on The Whip. I am saving it for problems. I think some of us just wanted to feel it out at first.

seems like this thread caught a lot of attention.....

That thread was the one from Saturday night, it did catch a lot of attention, it was a problem post, IMO. I was tired of working on it, had reached an impass..........just kind of handed it over. I cannot complain there. I got what I asked for, as I said, I don't know that anyone could have said or done more. Heck, someone showed me a better crop.
However, it still did not take, for most people, a weeks worth of time, IMO.
remember, the whipping post is most decidely *not* just for the whippee! it's for the entire membership to learn and grow from. by reading & learning, and by critiquing as well.

as with everything, it's better when all contribute. we can all learn to critique, there's a thread even stuck there in the whipping post, to help folks to learn how to critique.
Where? Is it an exercise, or a "this is how to critique" thread?

on the post you just referred to, you should post that to the poster! the whipping post is "no holds barred!" let it fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will agree with you there. I should have...............

Thanks for responding to my my post, you too, Sid. Yes, I think we should all respond more. I am behind on the nature thread. Priorities here,

.
But we really should respond more. I am not sure what I think about that.

I will try to add it to my "things to do" list.

ginger

ginger_55 · August 10, 2005

I have a guilty secret: I follow certain people......... as we all seem to. so it is hard to just jump into the Whip forum.

Just is, should, people should for me, I should for them. Etc.

Am leaving, can't jump anywhere. But yesterday, I was following someone I like so much I finally made myself stop, I thought I might be accused of stalking.

ginger (does anyone understand this) and I don't understand when people say they are not qualified to "help" or say something. This whole art thing is just opinions. We all buy, or did, something for our walls, so we all have something to say.............IMO. I just might not have time, or might not want to.

I think someone gave me truth serum this AM

wxwax · August 10, 2005

andy wrote:

:bigbs there are lots of folks who *are* taking the time to provide considerate, thoughtful, constructive critique. yes, we can always use more, and certainly some posts / posters get more responses than others, but in general, i see some really fine contributions - and we could all remember, that the whipping post is not just for the whippee to benefit from - it's for everyone

:nono Low post count per thread. :whip

XO-Studios · August 11, 2005

wxwax wrote:

:nono Low post count per thread. :whip

:poke :soapbox
Quality over quantity

XO,

wxwax · August 11, 2005

XO-Studios wrote:

:poke :soapbox
Quality over quantity

XO,

Both. Quality and quantity. Not mutually exclusive. Aim high.

Higgmeister · August 11, 2005

Who's qualified to whip?
Each and everyone of you are qualified. Each of you have taken at least one picture. Each of you has a unique point of view. Each of you have an opinion, whether it's good, bad or indifferent. Each of you like to look at pictures. So why not each of you make a comment.

It doesn't have to be a comprehensive critique. Pick a particular point and say something about that point. If you want to say "Hey, good shot", explain something about what makes it good to you. If you don't like the shot, what about it don't you like. Again, it doesn't have to be a full critique. I try to balance out what I say; some good and some bad. I've never taken a perfect picture so I always know there is room for improvement. The critiques help us find the improvements and getting a broader response opens up more doors.

I'd like to also state that critiquing is also a great learning tool. After the initial impressions, one has to look critically at a photo and decide what works and what doesn't. And also remember that these are all opinions, there is no right and no wrong (easy way out), just their unique point of view.

Enough said as this is way longer than I had intended:soapbox. Hope the grammer doesn't send anyone off the roof; I was trying to make a point.

Thanks for listening,
Chris

Steve Cavigliano · August 11, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

Until my last post on The Whip, just a few days ago, I had only had negative experiences with that place.

At that point I had posted twice on that site, "fixing", critiqueing my posts did not take any time. I think I had one short response for each post. Granted that did not hurt be badly, but it did disprove the theory of a time consuming forum.

I guess I am venting, too. I know I have followed THE RULE, and I don't feel the whipping post has been for me as advertised. Granted I was helped Saturday night I think it was. But it was over with, the helping, by Sunday. A relatively short period of time. I don't know what more anyone could have done, I just know that I am not taking up anyone's time excessively on that forum. I take more time when I start stressing about something else, somewhere else. And I still could not get dispensation to post again one day early. I guess I should not have known the rule.

On the other hand, I don't know how to help someone if I don't know what their problem is. I just looked at a post on there. I had two thoughts, "what do you want" and could you please post "bigger", but I really did think it was a "post for praise", which I do, too. But if I ever did it on the whipping post, I no longer do.

ginger

Ginger,

Hang in there. The WP is so new it's going through its own growing pains (witness this thread's topic). I, for one, am really happy about how it's working out so far and thanks to Andy and the other mods that helped create and manage it

I mentioned that I need to visit it more often

I will also dispute your remark about it not being time consuming. It can be. As a for instance, I replied to this post with a dissertation. It took me 15 minutes to type it and another 25 minutes to correct the spelling

To tell the truth, I'm not sure you ever read it

I'm not begging for a Thank You, just pointing out that as in the regular forums, more folks seem to reply to threads if the originator lets them know that their feedback/input is valued.

As Andy also points out, one doesn't have to be a moderator or Pro to critique another person's shot. You know wayyyyy more than you think you do Ginger. Your input will be welcome

Remember, even though there are obvious things that can be pointed out in a critique, everyone views the shot differently based on their own life experiences. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's usually no single or no 100% right answer when critiquing. I urge you to give it a go. I think you'll find out you are much better at it than you might think

Steve

Andy · August 11, 2005

steve, you hit on a very very key point:

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

It took me 15 minutes to type it

whippees should acknowledge the whippers, else the whippers put away their whips, and that would be bad, for the entire membership.

wxwax · August 11, 2005

andy wrote:

steve, you hit on a very very key point:

whippees should acknowledge the whippers, else the whippers put away their whips, and that would be bad, for the entire membership.

Thank you, sir. May I have another?

ginger_55 · August 12, 2005

A hint of S and M?

g (Oh, that feels so good, please.........)

OK, just kidding, message received. Gd pt!

ginger_55 · August 12, 2005

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Ginger,

Hang in there. The WP is so new it's going through its own growing pains (witness this thread's topic). I, for one, am really happy about how it's working out so far and thanks to Andy and the other mods that helped create and manage it

I mentioned that I need to visit it more often I will also dispute your remark about it not being time consuming. It can be. As a for instance, I replied to this post with a dissertation. It took me 15 minutes to type it and another 25 minutes to correct the spelling To tell the truth, I'm not sure you ever read it I'm not begging for a Thank You, just pointing out that as in the regular forums, more folks seem to reply to threads if the originator lets them know that their feedback/input is valued.

As Andy also points out, one doesn't have to be a moderator or Pro to critique another person's shot. You know wayyyyy more than you think you do Ginger. Your input will be welcome Remember, even though there are obvious things that can be pointed out in a critique, everyone views the shot differently based on their own life experiences. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's usually no single or no 100% right answer when critiquing. I urge you to give it a go. I think you'll find out you are much better at it than you might think

Steve

I read it, appreciated it, did not respond, ...........
sorry, have already addressed this elsewhere.

However, I just notice, you correct spelling???? All that time on spelling?
I just figure that everyone here thinks I am an idiot, no denial here, who can't spell. Would love spell check, but without it, I change words, or put (sp), if I have a hint I am wrong. Some words are my waterloo.

Just logging on for a sec.

g

Dee · August 12, 2005

Spelling
I have spell check, but it only underlines the word. I still have to access the dictionary and "tell" it to fix the word. Camouflage was my "bad" word when I posted the dragonfly picture, BTW... I kept leaving out the "U."

I've been typing for years and rattle along pretty well at a good clip -- but a lot of people were not trained to be typists and hunt and peck...

I haven't really followed the WP (bad Dee) but I've been busy lately and just skimming the threads to keep up.

I used to spend a lot of time critiquing and it takes a lot of time!

Here's an example of two variants:

1. Oh my gosh, why would anyone even take this picture? I find it so boring. Well, they not only took the picture, they posted it for critique, so I guess they think there's something in this picture they find worthy. Oh what can I possibly say without sounding like a mean spirited evil person? Why don't people at least "hint" at what the subject of the photo is? Oh here, the horizon's crooked, I can comment on that...

2. This picture is gorgeous, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But they must think something is wrong or they wouldn't have posted it. I can't find any thing wrong, oh how can I comment on this?

My two extremes when trying to critique! Being raised to be blunt and direct and brief in the NYC area it was a shock of culture difference to be out here in laid back California where everyone is more polite.

Sometimes when I meet an easterner it's a relief because we understand each other and can speak "short hand" so to speak. And we understand each other's sarcasm instead of getting blank hurt looks! So I have an internal conflict of wanting to say -- that picture sucks, what were you drinking when you took it? You outta your mind posting it here? In other words, why are you wasting my time? But no, I have to think instead, this person took this picture for a reason and obviously feels it's worthy of a critique, took the time to upload it. They are trying to learn and improve -- so put on the thinking cap and try to come up with something nice to say that will get the point across that -- this picture sucks!

:

I spent hours and hours on another site critiquing photos, and it got real old real fast because a lot of people didn't really want to hear it... at least here it's called the Whipping Post. I guess I got critique burn out!

The other problem for me is that after a couple of years of looking at really good photos (well, I think they're good, and one photographer just got photographer of the year, and I thought his photos really were good, and so did the pros apparently) it's hard to look at lesser (in my opinion) photos. After all I was looking at good photos to learn more and to try to improve myself. I still have a far way to go, especially in the technical end of stuff and in controlling lighting. So I'm far from an expert and when it comes to technique and lighting I feel I miss things to comment on.

So I have to give credit to the people taking the time to critique at the WP If it turns out to be a thankless task, that's really sad. If people posting pictures would in turn critique photos they'd soon see the dilemma and perhaps have a couple of second thoughts.

I think it's great the WP was started, and that it has people willing to take the time to give thoughtful critiques. The part about one photo a week is probably a good one -- we don't want any critique burn out here do we?

Hmmmm, whatever happened to blunt, direct and brief Dee?

Andy · August 12, 2005

Dee wrote:

Hmmmm, whatever happened to blunt, direct and brief Dee?

...you can take the girl outta ny but you can't take the ny outta the girl

Dee · August 12, 2005

Lol

andy wrote:

...you can take the girl outta ny but you can't take the ny outta the girl

You're too nice to be a NYer...

Now Harry? Ah, there's that sarcastic blunt humor every time, but I bet he's nice too!

lynnma · August 13, 2005

Dee wrote:

You're too nice to be a NYer...

Now Harry? Ah, there's that sarcastic blunt humor every time, but I bet he's nice too!

Harry??? NICE???

Harryb · August 14, 2005

lynnma wrote:

Harry??? NICE???

If you look in the dictionary under nice it says "see Behret" and has a picture of my smiling face.

Whipping Post: Self Policing

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