my shots are lacking the sharpness I want, CC please.

Howitzer

I take alot of pics of my friends kids various sports, and I think I am just not getting the sharpness I should be. I am pretty sure its either me.. or a setting on my gear. Ill start with the gear part...

Nikon d300
I was shooting with a Tamron 70-300 zoom but I upgraded to a Nikkor 70-200 2.8 zoom thinking that was my problem.
no tripod or mono pod.

here is an example which I think should be better:



this was shot at 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 640 95mm cloudy white balance

the shot had a lot of noise, which I took out using Noiseware, I read on one post here that I should use the even (100 200 400 etc) ISO's so I will try that, but I think the image lacks sharpness, I want to crop the image down to show only the 2 soccer players around the ball but it gets bad.

I was shooting at 21 focal points for autofocus, but turned that down to 9 and havent tried that yet.

as you can see here, this one is completely unprocessed, just cropped



so what can I do to improve? Be honest I know they need work and I want to improve.

if you want to see more of this shoot the gallery is here: http://3dogphotos.com/Sports/FC-Soccer-3-7-2010/11447936_QzETY#807773870_oCauX


Thanks
Howitzer

Coleman Photography

On the copped version I still see quite a bit of noise on my moniter. I would def try and keep the iso down that would be a good start. when shooting outdoors. imo

johng

The original shot is framed way too loosely. You can't do major crops and expect sharp images - focus accuracy and optics limitations will prevent that. If you're going to shoot landscape orientation make sure your subjects are filling 3/4 of the frame.

For what it's worth, shooting with a 200mm lens - the working limit is about 25 yards - beyond that sharpness goes down in a hurry. So you have to be patient until action gets within range.

Given how loosely the original shot is framed I'd say the sharpness is about what I would expect.

JSPhotography

IMO, I don't think your settings are too far off. I might even bump that ISO up and get my shutter up to 1000. I agree with johng, you need to zoom in. You mention this was at 95, that means you had some left to get to 200. Your shooting hand held, turn it portrait and zoom in tighter. Just keep clicking.

zoomer

I shoot a lot of action with that same set up. I normally shoot at f2.8 sometimes f4, that lens should be tack sharp at those f-stops.
Looks like your focus settings worked for you here, I leave mine on 21 but 9 works as well.

If you sharpen the top image with un-sharp mask you will find that it is sharp.

When you overcrop it as you have here you will lose that sharpness, you only have 12 megapixels to work with. Using Noiseware decreased your sharpness, noise reduction always reduces sharpness to varying degrees...
You do not need to use even ISO's, where did that craziness come from???.

That shot I would have shot at f2.8 iso 400. You would have almost no noise and it would be sharp.

One of the posters said your sharpess will decrease past 25 yards with a 200mm lens...don't know what that is about either...I have never seen that to be the case.

Try 2.8 and 4 at iso 400, don't over crop it and use unsharp mask, you should be fine. As others said use your zoom, not your crop.

johng

zoomer wrote:

One of the posters said your sharpess will decrease past 25 yards with a 200mm lens...don't know what that is about either...I have never seen that to be the case.
.

That was from me and based on my experience. If you've got some before/after shots (before crop and after crop) showing shots beyond that range I'd be interested to see how your sharpness stacks up after you've cropped down to fill the frame.

zoomer

Well overcropping is going to affect your sharpness no matter the distance.
Distance has nothing to do with it, the amount of the crop does.

If you want to look here is a gallery link of action photos taken with the 70-200 2.8. I think most of these were taken at f4 and all are more than 25 yards away. A lot of them have varying degrees of crop and as long as you don't crop to far they are plenty sharp:
http://alloutdoor.smugmug.com/Whitewater-galleries/Catarafts-North-Fork/9580042_vpGMJ#644757328_AAAnd

johng

zoomer wrote:

Well overcropping is going to affect your sharpness no matter the distance.
Distance has nothing to do with it, the amount of the crop does.

If you want to look here is a gallery link of action photos taken with the 70-200 2.8. I think most of these were taken at f4 and all are more than 25 yards away. A lot of them have varying degrees of crop and as long as you don't crop to far they are plenty sharp:
http://alloutdoor.smugmug.com/Whitewater-galleries/Catarafts-North-Fork/9580042_vpGMJ#644757328_AAAnd

case in point - take shot #1 in your gallery and crop it so the subject fills the frame - which is what you want to do with soccer. Then see if you think it's plenty sharp.

I could go through your gallery and pick out lots of similar shots. They seem sharp with subject filling small portion of the frame - and in the context of what you're shooting where the water and surrounding area and you don't need to fill the frame with the person you're OK.

But that isn't soccer or football or lax or any other sport where you want a human to fill the frame when you're done.

When you do want your human subject to fill your frame, 25 yards has been a good working rule of thumb for me. If you've got any before/after crops where your human subject was more than 25 yards away and you crop so the subject fills the frame that would be on-point. But I don't see anything in your gallery that suggests you can successfully shoot a moving human from say 40 yards away and crop the image down so the human fills the frame and you have sharp/detailed results.

Qarik

johng wrote:

The original shot is framed way too loosely. You can't do major crops and expect sharp images - focus accuracy and optics limitations will prevent that. If you're going to shoot landscape orientation make sure your subjects are filling 3/4 of the frame.

For what it's worth, shooting with a 200mm lens - the working limit is about 25 yards - beyond that sharpness goes down in a hurry. So you have to be patient until action gets within range.

Given how loosely the original shot is framed I'd say the sharpness is about what I would expect.

I see your point about cropping to fill the frame but the wording in your posts was suggesting to me that at 200mm and over 25 yards somehow was optically limiting your sharpness.

Wil Davis

I wonder if this thread might be of help to you? I came across it a while ago, and it (plus replies) explains one of the neat features of both Nikon (AF-ON) and Canon (Back-Button-Focus). The feature is especially useful if you need to focus very quickly and don't want the camera to be confused by movement etc.

HTH -

- Wil

Howitzer

I appreciate all your replies, zoomer I will try to use the lower ISO and f/2.8 next time. I suppose since my settings dont seem so off that I need to practice more so I can keep the camera on target at full zoom. soccer is crazy as far as predicting which direction to go. Something like baseball I have had better luck with.

I will post up some follow up pics of my next shoot, should be this weekend.

thanks

Enitsugua

Howitzer wrote:

I take alot of pics of my friends kids various sports, and I think I am just not getting the sharpness I should be. I am pretty sure its either me.. or a setting on my gear. Ill start with the gear part...

Nikon d300
I was shooting with a Tamron 70-300 zoom but I upgraded to a Nikkor 70-200 2.8 zoom thinking that was my problem.
no tripod or mono pod....

this was shot at 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 640 95mm cloudy white balance

the shot had a lot of noise, which I took out using Noiseware, I read on one post here that I should use the even (100 200 400 etc) ISO's so I will try that, but I think the image lacks sharpness, I want to crop the image down to show only the 2 soccer players around the ball but it gets bad.

I was shooting at 21 focal points for autofocus, but turned that down to 9 and havent tried that yet.

as you can see here, this one is completely unprocessed, just cropped....

so what can I do to improve? Be honest I know they need work and I want to improve.

if you want to see more of this shoot the gallery is here: http://3dogphotos.com/Sports/FC-Soccer-3-7-2010/11447936_QzETY#807773870_oCauX


Thanks
Howitzer

Put your lens on 200 and leave it there through one entire game. Make yourself shoot there. That's the only way you're going to learn to follow the action with a zoom in front of you. Try to shoot with both eyes open. It can be done (just takes some practice). That will help in following the action. Count on more toss away shots the first game or two you do this. But count on some good shots that you won't need to crop as much.

I'd leave your other settings alone. I'd also shoot RAW and create your own JPGs with Lightroom or something similar. Some other sports shooters here won't agree with me on that, but I come from the old film days and much prefer doing RAW for everything. The post isn't that much if you have consistent settings and consistent environment. Be sure to sharpen with USM in PS or with sharpen in LR.

I wouldn't mess with the AF-ON thread. You don't need it. Use 9 points on the D300 for outdoor sports like soccer. 9 points seems to be about all it can keep up with, given the processor in it.

If you're going to let the camera create the JPGs, then there are some other settings you should probably mess with a little (such as DLighting). Anyway, try RAW. You'll be glad you did. (read this thread on RAW: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=160124&highlight=raw+processing)

I shoot in WA state; clouds and sun come and go often. So, for outdoor sports, I shoot mostly aperture priority. For indoor, nighttime, and outside days when there's no clouds, then I'll shoot manual.

Again, leave that lens at 200 for soccer. And only shoot the quarter of the field nearest to you. If you want to really have some fun with soccer, rent a 400 (or even a 600) from borrowlenses.com and try that.

Howitzer

Thanks Enitsugua, I will shoot at 200 only next game.

I currently only shoot in raw right now anyways, I found it easier since I was learning and was having to adjust exposure pp. I dont really see a need to shoot jpgs at the moment.

So if I shoot in AP mode, my camera is going to adjust shutter speed for the best light correct? is that going to be enough to freeze action in sports? I have been shooting in manual mode. I started way back using SP but I was under exposed most likely due to poor lens.

zoomer

JohnG we are saying the same thing.
If you crop to far the subject will not be sharp.
Distance is not the issue, the large crop is the issue.

nipprdog

Why are you shooting your 2.8 lens at 5.6

Howitzer

beats me.

when i set the shutter to 1/800 5.6 was giving me correctly exposed pics according to the histogram.

nipprdog

Howitzer wrote:

beats me.

when i set the shutter to 1/800 5.6 was giving me correctly exposed pics according to the histogram.

No offense, but this means you have no idea what your doing.

You need to learn the relationship between SS/Aperture/DOF.

And how a wider aperture gives you a higher SS, and shallower DOF.

Howitzer

no shit... why do you think I was asking for help.

nipprdog

Howitzer wrote:

no shit... why do you think I was asking for help.

I was about to offer some more help, but.............

CoryUT

Howitzer wrote:

no shit... why do you think I was asking for help.

Good reply

Your lens is great for the very reason that it takes excellent pictures at f/2.8. Since you allow more light in at f/2.8 than at f/5.6, you can take shots at higher shutter speeds while keeping proper exposure. That's exactly what you want for sharp action shots. Use that f/2.8 and zoom! Unless it results in overexposure, of course.

Howitzer

so you insult me and expect me to smile and hug you? I asked for help you dont need to insult me.

thanks for the insult.. could you do it a little more? is that a better response.

zoomer

You should be all set try f2.8 and f4 iso400 and try to fill the frame with your subjects, use your zoom to fill the frame. If necessary you can crop appx. 25 percent out of a sharp picture and it will still be sharp, go much past that and you will lose it.

That will isolate your subjects better, blur the backgrounds, give you higher shutter speed, less noise. I assume you are using continuous focus using your dynamic area AF for tracking your moving subjects.(middle setting on the back focus settings dial).

ian408

The OP asked a question and you can choose to help or not but please, let's not go bashing someone asking for help.

The whole reason for asking is to learn--let's not discourage that.


Thanks.

Enitsugua

Howitzer wrote:

Thanks Enitsugua, I will shoot at 200 only next game.

I currently only shoot in raw right now anyways, I found it easier since I was learning and was having to adjust exposure pp. I dont really see a need to shoot jpgs at the moment.

So if I shoot in AP mode, my camera is going to adjust shutter speed for the best light correct? is that going to be enough to freeze action in sports? I have been shooting in manual mode. I started way back using SP but I was under exposed most likely due to poor lens.

AP is going to give you the highest possible shutter speed for the ISO you have set and the current light IF YOU USE A LARGE APERTURE (2.8). I'd shoot your lens between 2.8 and 4 and see what you get.

Howitzer

thank you guys very much, I will use these techniques this weekend and post up some results.

JSPhotography

You all don't think he is going to have DOF issues at 2.8?

zoomer

No, at that distance there will be plenty of depth of field.

JSPhotography

zoomer wrote:

No, at that distance there will be plenty of depth of field.

At 50' he is going to have a DOF of 2', going to be tight IMO.

ian408

zoomer wrote:

No, at that distance there will be plenty of depth of field.

If the focus point is spot on.

zoomer

Agreed, at 2.8 there is not a lot of room for error.
That is why I suggested he try it at 2.8 and 4.
If 2.8 works for him that will go a long way towards solving his other issues.

Howitzer

is there a chart that shows DOF at certain distances for a given Aperture? or is it more just learned over time.