It's not the Raw image that's the limitation, is it? Isn't it today's sensors that only capture 5 stops? I think that's what you meant...
Yes, that's what I meant -- sorry 'bout the ambiguity. The sensor captures what it captures. RAW just keeps all of what it captures, while JPEG chucks most of it.
5d samples (not from canon site)
take a good look at these samples hoo boy, kudos to canon for pushing the high iso bar up another notch
there's really good detail in some of those landscape shots, and they were taken with the 24-105 new i.s. zoom - with primes, the camera should be able to do even better. there are seven pages of samples, scroll thru and you'll find something of interest, i'm sure. most of the page is in japanese but the relevant stuff (exif etc) is readable. you can d/l full size samples.
It's not the Raw image that's the limitation, is it? Isn't it today's sensors that only capture 5 stops? I think that's what you meant, but I want to make sure. Because it is too common to confuse bit depth with dynamic range when discussing this technology, I feel it's important to be careful with the terms. While I'm not a mathematician, I am under the impression that today's 16-bit Raw files can store many more stops of dynamic range, if only the sensors were capable of collecting it.
Colour depth (8bit, 16bit, float) isn't tied to dynamic range at all. If you weren't conserned about linear space you could cram 27 stops of dynamic range into a 3bit image, it would just look very very banded.
in 16bit colour space you can store 18,446,740,000,000,000,000 distinct shades per channel. In 8 bit it is 16,777,216 shades per channel
I work in Film VFX and everyones pipelines are moving away from 12bit logarithmic or 16 bit linear space to a floating point format that lets you set your white point to 1 and black point to 0. it lets you keep colour values above one and negative values so you can render and keep information far below your black point. In photo land they are called HDR images.
Untill we get displays that can display higher contrast ratios and papers that are whiter with inks that are blacker. all you are really getting is less contrast in your photos by tring to display too many stops of dynamic range at once.
take a good look at these samples hoo boy, kudos to canon for pushing the high iso bar up another notch
there's really good detail in some of those landscape shots, and they were taken with the 24-105 new i.s. zoom - with primes, the camera should be able to do even better. there are seven pages of samples, scroll thru and you'll find something of interest, i'm sure. most of the page is in japanese but the relevant stuff (exif etc) is readable. you can d/l full size samples.
Take a look at page 6 of the samples. I have 3 comment. First AMAZING. This is iso 1600. Second, looks like the sensor needs cleaning. Third, What the heck are the things flying around? They look like the biggest dragonflys I have ever seen.
all you are really getting is less contrast in your photos by tring to display too many stops of dynamic range at once
The issue of dynamic range ultimately comes down to detail, not contrast. If you take photo of a scene with 6 stops of exposure, then make a print and hold a spot meter at it (i.e. the print itself), you are only going to get a very small exposure range -- I've heard 2 or 3 stops. The paper is not reproducing the dynamic range -- it's just representing detail in a wider range of light and dark areas.
So I disagree with the above statement on three grounds:
1) By definition a print can only display a limited exposure range, merely because its job is to display detail and not light; so virtually every print has limited contrast compared with the original scene. If you take a picture of the sun, your print will not be emanating the same amount of light as this celestial body, so it will indeed have a much lower contrast range than the real scene.
2) You get much more shadow and highlight detail in images with higher dynamic range; and that's what it comes down to in the end. You will see texture in the shadows, and color in the bright parts of the sunset. I just saw the Ansel Adams exhibit at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts -- pictures taken on 8x10 large format B+W negatives; and the amount of highlight and shadow detail blew away what you can achieve on a digital camera.
3) If you have an HDR image, with its ensuant highlight and shadow detail, and you are concerned that there isn't enough contrast, you always have the prerogative to modulate the contrast using your curves or levels or whatever. You can do it to a point where x amount of your highlights are pure white and y amount of your shadows are pure black -- but you're cutting out that detail. The point of RAW imaging, and large color space imaging, etc, is to start your computer workflow with as much image information as possible -- because every editing step you undertake is just a little bit destructive to the original image. If your picture doesn't need that detail, then you have the choice to throw it out (similar to how I intentionally underexposed this shot, thereby disregarding the foreground shadow detail).
What the heck are the things flying around? They look like the biggest dragonflys I have ever seen.
Mitch
Hmm. . . giant dragonflys . . . these photos from a Japanese IT website . . . the photos must be of . . .
Megaguirus!
From the movie Godzilla vs Megaguirus (link) Megaguirus (メガギラス) is a kaiju (giant monster) and the main villain. She is a thought-to-be-extinct spiecies of dragonfly. Megaguirus has alot of abilities. She can drain the energy out of her attacker, can cut enemy with wings, create supersonic sound waves that interups electric mesages, and the energy that she sucks out with her tail she can harness to create a ball of energy that can knock out the oponent for three minutes.
Length: 50 meters
Wingspan: 80 meters
Weight: 12000 tons
: : : : : : : : Thanks Google!
Sorry for the attempted humor on a serious canon 5D thread I must have too much time on my hands - should be taking more pictures!
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
I finally saw and could hold a 5D today, not sure what I expected, but it is a little larger than I expected, but still compact. The LCD on the back looks huge, I wonder how long it would take to get used to that. Now all I need is to find one I can test out to see if I like shooting with it.
0
John MuellerRegistered UsersPosts: 2,555Major grins
I finally saw and could hold a 5D today, not sure what I expected, but it is a little larger than I expected, but still compact. The LCD on the back looks huge, I wonder how long it would take to get used to that. Now all I need is to find one I can test out to see if I like shooting with it.
I was finally able to fondle one at the camera store the other day. Much nicer
than I'd expected.
Ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I was finally able to fondle one at the camera store the other day. Much nicer
than I'd expected.
Ian
I walked into my local camera store last week and inquired about the 5D. The guy said "Didn't you just buy a 20D a few months back?" I said "yes, in July."
"Is the viewfinder area that much nicer?" I asked. He replied that it was "sweet". "Can I look through one?" Again he said I could, only if I could pony up another $2K for the body. I told him "I wouldn't be buying one just because I looked through it" ...and that I didn't "have $2,000 to upgrade anyway just now anyway."
He then said "If I bring it out, and you do look through it, I'm telling you, you'll be buying one. If not today, then real real soon."
I then quickly turned my attention to the large size Giottos Rocket Air thing, and walked out only $10 lighter.
Man, that was close!
My Smugmug
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I walked into my local camera store last week and inquired about the 5D. The guy said "Didn't you just buy a 20D a few months back?" I said "yes, in July."
"Is the viewfinder area that much nicer?" I asked. He replied that it was "sweet". "Can I look through one?" Again he said I could, only if I could pony up another $2K for the body. I told him "I wouldn't be buying one just because I looked through it" ...and that I didn't "have $2,000 to upgrade anyway just now anyway."
He then said "If I bring it out, and you do look through it, I'm telling you, you'll be buying one. If not today, then real real soon."
I then quickly turned my attention to the large size Giottos Rocket Air thing, and walked out only $10 lighter.
Man, that was close!
It's true. Steve Cav is poisoned since looking thru a full-frame vf.
Comments
:slosh
My Gallery
"Hammer my bones in the anvil of daylight..." -Beck
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
take a good look at these samples hoo boy, kudos to canon for pushing the high iso bar up another notch
there's really good detail in some of those landscape shots, and they were taken with the 24-105 new i.s. zoom - with primes, the camera should be able to do even better. there are seven pages of samples, scroll thru and you'll find something of interest, i'm sure. most of the page is in japanese but the relevant stuff (exif etc) is readable. you can d/l full size samples.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
in 16bit colour space you can store 18,446,740,000,000,000,000 distinct shades per channel. In 8 bit it is 16,777,216 shades per channel
I work in Film VFX and everyones pipelines are moving away from 12bit logarithmic or 16 bit linear space to a floating point format that lets you set your white point to 1 and black point to 0. it lets you keep colour values above one and negative values so you can render and keep information far below your black point. In photo land they are called HDR images.
Untill we get displays that can display higher contrast ratios and papers that are whiter with inks that are blacker. all you are really getting is less contrast in your photos by tring to display too many stops of dynamic range at once.
Mitch
So I disagree with the above statement on three grounds:
1) By definition a print can only display a limited exposure range, merely because its job is to display detail and not light; so virtually every print has limited contrast compared with the original scene. If you take a picture of the sun, your print will not be emanating the same amount of light as this celestial body, so it will indeed have a much lower contrast range than the real scene.
2) You get much more shadow and highlight detail in images with higher dynamic range; and that's what it comes down to in the end. You will see texture in the shadows, and color in the bright parts of the sunset. I just saw the Ansel Adams exhibit at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts -- pictures taken on 8x10 large format B+W negatives; and the amount of highlight and shadow detail blew away what you can achieve on a digital camera.
3) If you have an HDR image, with its ensuant highlight and shadow detail, and you are concerned that there isn't enough contrast, you always have the prerogative to modulate the contrast using your curves or levels or whatever. You can do it to a point where x amount of your highlights are pure white and y amount of your shadows are pure black -- but you're cutting out that detail. The point of RAW imaging, and large color space imaging, etc, is to start your computer workflow with as much image information as possible -- because every editing step you undertake is just a little bit destructive to the original image. If your picture doesn't need that detail, then you have the choice to throw it out (similar to how I intentionally underexposed this shot, thereby disregarding the foreground shadow detail).
My Gallery
"Hammer my bones in the anvil of daylight..." -Beck
Megaguirus!
From the movie Godzilla vs Megaguirus (link)
Megaguirus (メガギラス) is a kaiju (giant monster) and the main villain. She is a thought-to-be-extinct spiecies of dragonfly. Megaguirus has alot of abilities. She can drain the energy out of her attacker, can cut enemy with wings, create supersonic sound waves that interups electric mesages, and the energy that she sucks out with her tail she can harness to create a ball of energy that can knock out the oponent for three minutes.
Sorry for the attempted humor on a serious canon 5D thread
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
look here.
yeah i see some stores are getting them yesterday, today...
here's the email i got from scott at tallyn's last night.. hopefully mine is on the way soon
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
and you wonder why you don't have the keys to the B+H VIP room.
big stuff, like the 1Ds Mark II, 5D, etc i purchase from tallyn's, the nyc sales tax is killer man....
then again, if henry would serve up steak tips, or a french dip, and some espresso, i'd be all over it, tax be-damned!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
not that i'm excited or anything....
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
So we'll see pitchas in the mornin' when we wakes?
Ian
Erich
and
linky i'm unpacking now ....
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Thank you, we were starting to worry.
I do mine.:D
Cincinnati Smug Leader
I was finally able to fondle one at the camera store the other day. Much nicer
than I'd expected.
Ian
I walked into my local camera store last week and inquired about the 5D. The guy said "Didn't you just buy a 20D a few months back?" I said "yes, in July."
"Is the viewfinder area that much nicer?" I asked. He replied that it was "sweet". "Can I look through one?" Again he said I could, only if I could pony up another $2K for the body. I told him "I wouldn't be buying one just because I looked through it" ...and that I didn't "have $2,000 to upgrade anyway just now anyway."
He then said "If I bring it out, and you do look through it, I'm telling you, you'll be buying one. If not today, then real real soon."
I then quickly turned my attention to the large size Giottos Rocket Air thing, and walked out only $10 lighter.
Man, that was close!
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
It's true. Steve Cav is poisoned since looking thru a full-frame vf.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter