Do I have a chance?

kingmamaof2

I would love to do photography part time and eventually full time. I'm just starting out and don't have much for my portfolio. There is another local photographer that gets most of the business around here, she's good, prices are cheap-probably why she has lots of business. I am trying to charge what she charges so that I have a chance to start out. However, I can't get any calls or leads-I'm practically begging for folks to let me take their pictures and then have to give them a CD in return. My question is, do you think I have a chance to start a photography business? My site is:

www.lovieking.smugmug.com

What are the best ways to go about advertising?

Thanks!

ColoradoSkier

I'll let others critique your work, for I think mine needs improvement too.

But where your business is concerned, you need to figure out a few things first:

1) What is the demand in your area?
2) Why is the established person so successful?
3) Who do you know that you could do shoots for that would spread the word?
4) Why should people come to you instead of the other person?

Tools like Groupon, Facebook, etc can help, but first you need to have a good body of work to show people, which means a relatively polished website (with your own domain name, not a SM sub-domain). Professionalism goes a long way. It also helps to know people in different areas that might need photography on a regular basis. I just got a gig doing youth baseball team photos (group shot + 1 pose) for one of the 13 associations that make up the league that covers our part of town. That is 245 people who will see my name, while their association pays for it (they cover the single team picture, families can buy the add on packages). If you can get into something like this, then you can make your own niche and start working outward from there.

gecko0

I glanced at your site and found some nice work (some of the senior portraits really stood out). One big question is your pricing...it seems WAY too cheap. I think you're basing too much on print sales and not enough on up-front costs. Worst case (for you), you quote $35 for up to a 2.5 hour session that could be 60 miles round-trip for you...then extra time for PP and product delivery. $35 would barely cover gas expenses/wear and tear on your vehicle. So, I would have to say, other than enjoyment, it cannot remotely be worth your time to do this for that amount of money. It would be an economic and time black hole.

I know that doesn't help with getting your business started, but if it did start up, I don't think you would be happy in the end when you end up spending more than you bring in.

.02

Nikonic1

Glort wrote:

Probably not.

I didn't look at your work, it's irrelevant.
The fact you come here though asking the question is a real concern however and one that makes me think that you are probably lacking in the qualities, life experience and initiative that would make you a successful shooter from a business POV.

If you want to be a photographer because you like taking pictures, forget about doing it as a business because once you do that it's work not fun and the fun soon goes out of it. Much better to enjoy taking pics for the fun and pleasure it brings you and enjoy that with a purity and satisfaction you won't get when you turn photography into a successful business.

If you do want to make it into a business, you should be doing that because you recognize opportunities to make money and have a plan of attack to do that. Your post indicates you are trying to make the cart fit the horse, not buy the right size horse for the cart to start with.

If you do want to honestly make it a business and have the commitment and understanding to realize what that will take in an over serviced/saturated industry that there will be more people catering to at the same time the demand falls away slowly but surely, Get yourself down to the local Library and start working your way though the Sales, advertising, business and marketing sections. This is what will make the difference between a successful professional photographer and someone that is stuffing around always frustrated, never making any money and getting grief rather than pleasure from what they are doing.

If you have any opposition to spending a lot of time and effort education yourself in these things and forgetting about photography for a while, do realise that is a huge warning sign and alarm bell and take notice of it.
If there is any reason in your head you can't or don't want to do what I said, give the idea away now and be happy to enjoy photography for the pleasure it gives you alone and not confuse the issue with thoughts of making it any sort of a business.

I love photography but if I had the smarts to make a successful and happy living out of anything else I would in a heart beat because then I could do what i love because I love it, not compromise it so much by making it work or a job.

Well thought out post and great advice.

kingmamaof2

Glort wrote:

Probably not.

I didn't look at your work, it's irrelevant.
The fact you come here though asking the question is a real concern however and one that makes me think that you are probably lacking in the qualities, life experience and initiative that would make you a successful shooter from a business POV.

Thank you for the replies everyone. I'm sorry I posted, Mods please remove. I'm sorry I came here 'asking the question' as quoted above.

Nikonic1

kingmamaof2 wrote:

Thank you for the replies everyone. I'm sorry I posted, Mods please remove. I'm sorry I came here 'asking the question' as quoted above.

I think you've taken what was written out of context a bit. I think what was meant is that "if you have to ask, you aren't ready". Also, what I gleaned from Glort's comments was that making a business out of photography isn't about taking great pictures. While that's a HUGE part of it, there are a whole lot of awesome photographers out there who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of running a business.

Please reread with the mindset that someone was trying to give you real, unbiased advice on how to really weigh whether or not you should be considering photography as a business. Making a living as a photog is far more taxing than the wonderful hobby you seem to enjoy now.

Scootersbabygirl

I'm in a similar situation. Around here there is one major photographer and that's it. Only he charges and arm and a leg, so I have a chance.

My advice to you is to take things slowly. I know you want to jump in and to get tons of people right off, but that could cause more problems than good things. Get your name out there - start taking photos, post ads up at public places/ect. Your senior portraits look great - do a free senior portrait for a senior in order to get your name out there a bit more, or do some giveaways for free portraits. It's not easy getting your name out there, but give it some time and make an effort and you should steadily have more business.

cbbr

Everyone has a chance. You will have to work as hard on your education in business and photography as you did/do in your current job. Harder if you want to make the same money. Given what you do now, you certainly have the ability.

If being a photog is your dream, get after it - ask, listen, learn and be prepared to suffer just like you did to get where you are professionally today.

Nikonic1

Scootersbabygirl wrote:

do a free senior portrait for a senior in order to get your name out there a bit more, or do some giveaways for free portraits. It's not easy getting your name out there, but give it some time and make an effort and you should steadily have more business.

I know there are a lot of schools of thought on this but "working" for free just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At least cover your expenses, (i.e.:time, fuel, etc.).

Wachel

Nikonic1 wrote:

I know there are a lot of schools of thought on this but "working" for free just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At least cover your expenses, (i.e.:time, fuel, etc.).

Some free work can be considered marketing. All kinds of businesses do it. From free food samples to coupons for buy one get one free. Now, you can't always work for free but some free work to get your name out there in a field where word of mouth is king...good stuff.

I do agree with taking a hobby and turning it into a business is a TON of work.

Scott_Quier

@Glort - your first response was spot-on, at least as far as it went. The offending part was the first couple of lines of your response.

It is true that the actaul product is for the most part irrevelent but it does play a part. What might have helped that medicine go down a bit easier is if you had also mentioned that 95% of making a business successful is the business of making that business successful. The art is the payload, it's the business practices that will carry it and that has to be right.

Adding that little bit to what you said and I would have to say you pretty much nailed it on the head.

@kingmamaof2 - no need to get offended by anything here. IMHO, forums should be treated like one would a Chinese menu - take a little from column A, a little from column B .... and make it one's own. Put the rest on the back shelf (of your mind) and come back to it in a couple of months or a couple of years and see if it has any use as things change.

bmoreshooter

First of all, no one can tell you if you will be successful in opening a new business. If you are asking if your pictures are good enough to be successful then we just don't have enough information. What would be the scope of your business? Do you want to specialize in portraits, will you include weddings, seniors, studio work or location? Most photographers need to be diverse in what they have to offer as a business. If this is the case then your gallery really does'nt show us enough. If your going to be specializing in one type of photography you will need a very large client pool. Are you planning to do this full time? If so make sure you are finanially stable enough to withstand a loss while getting started. Keep in mind that everyone has a digital camera now and feel less need to hire a professional. Your work needs to make people feel that it's worth paying for. As for the other person in your area that you feel would be direct competition, just block them out of your mind. Time spent worrying about who's doing what is time wasted. Concentrate on yourself and what you need to do to get more business. Most people will find it best to start out slowly. Keep your investment minimal and learn to do well with what you have. If your good enough your business will create itself.

kd2

Good advice being given all around. I'll add my .02. You can't worry about the competition. You can't control the competition. (So there's one other photographer who is your competition--what will you do when a 2nd or 3rd one pops up?) There will always be someone shooting cheaper than you and even for free! You can't control that. You need only be concerned with the things you can control.

You can control how you present YOUR business, how well you build relationships with potential clients, and just how much work you are wiling to put into your own business. I once asked a very successful photographer what was the best advice he could give to someone starting out and he said, "Put 80% of your effort into the business side."

Bottom line: Of course you have a chance to start a photography business. What counts is what you're willing to do to make it work and not worrying about what others are doing.

Art Scott

Your profile says you are in Texas........Your info pages say that all charges are for shooting in the Atlanta/Queen City area of Georgia.....that can be confusing to say the least.

So where are you Texas or Georgia??wink

Surfdog

Don't leave, kingmamaof2!

You are actually getting some really good advice, even if given rather bluntly. I've learned that it sometimes helps to be a bit thick-skinned around here when asking for advice, because there are alot of very experienced shooters on this forum who can truly help you.

As for my $.02, looking at your smugmug galleries, you have some good work. Your prices should be double what they are, though. When you are basically giving your work away, it gives the impression of inexperience and lack of confidence rather than a great price. I would suggest that you ignore what the other photographer is charging, and price yourself right. You will find that when picking a photographer, people tend to choose a style they like over the price being charged.

Your best advertisement will always be word of mouth. The more clients you shoot, the more business will come your way from those clients if you do great work and treat them well.

If you need to expand your portfolio, don't be afraid to do A FEW free shoots of friends to add more variety and a larger body of work. Also - spend the money on a lovieking.com website. A simple, but professional-looking website does not have to be expensive. I paid a friend $200 to set mine up and show me how to update it. It now costs very little for hosting, and gives a much better impression than a smugmug page. It is also fairly easy to have your page show up at the top of the list when someone does a search for photogs in your area.

Hope this helps some.

deb22

glort made a lot of good points but I fear the blunt style is a bit much for many people, Everyone starts out not knowing anything and getting advice is sometimes a double edged sword here. You get some who are kind and knowledgeable and some blunt and knowledgeable, It may be a dog eat dog world out their sometimes and maybe you just had a bad day and weren't expecting to get slammed like that with a fairly innocent question, But keep your chin up and take a breath and carry on. Always remember opinions of others are just that-opinions!! Glort I am not disagreeing with your content just your attitude on this one, discouragement is not always the way to go,this is not the olympics where forceful is needed at times, I think she just asked a simple question and was looking for an opinion on her work.That's why she put in her site info. We just have different styles in helping others I guess but I trained many sports and media pros dogs[not that fluffy ring stuff-obedience and top level hunting as well as certifying police teams and search and rescue] most of my life and if you use only force on a mean dog you will lose,so a fair but even persuasion is often longer but much better in the long run.

Snowgirl

Not to get into the pros and cons of individual's writing styles, there are many excellent books out there on starting businesses in general and on the photography industry in particular. One such book is "Best Business Practices for Photographers" by John Herrington and it should be required reading for anyone even THINKING of getting into photography as a business.

Glort and the others are right - there's a huge difference between being a good photographer (or not) and being a good business person (or not). One can be either of those things without the other.

Lots of average photographers make an excellent living because they are better business people. Some excellent photographers are paupers because they are not good business people although they are fine artists.

Just points to ponder while you make up your mind what you want to do or are capable of doing.

Build a business plan based on your talents and plans and that will tell you whether or not you have a chance of success.

zoomer

I think the OP left this thread a bit back.
Neither the internet or the photography world slow down and take time to take peoples feeling into consideration often.

People asking for advice need to remove the emotion from it and read the content.....if there is any....if your feelings getting hurt prevents you from seeing the message, that is going to hold you back.

Keep telling it like it is Glort, sugar coating it does not help anybody.

thoth

zoomer wrote:

People asking for advice need to remove the emotion from it and read the content.....if there is any....if your feelings getting hurt prevents you from seeing the message, that is going to hold you back.

Keep telling it like it is Glort, sugar coating it does not help anybody.

Damn straight. It's impossible to give good advice while being pleasant.

ColoradoSkier

zoomer wrote:

Keep telling it like it is Glort, sugar coating it does not help anybody.

x3 - I appreciate the no-nonsense approach.

kingmamaof2

I'm here!! I haven't left the thread....I do have a day job actually. I have been reading everything and taking it all in. I am not giving up or leaving. Just have realized that I have a looong way to go, so it will take time. Thank you all for the comments on the site, I'm trying to make it look somewhat professional. I'm located in Atlanta, TX-sorry I guess I should put that in the profile. Yes, I'm young and clueless when it come to business. I'm an RN- not a marketing grad. Didn't ask for sugar coating nor did I throw a hissy fit-or whatever, sorry that I came across like that to some. Just asked that the post be removed as asking the question was stupid on my part. I don't know these things-I have never been in this sub forum before. Anyway, Thanks guys for the advice!! I'm going to start by buying some books/researching and continue surfing this forum.:D

Art Scott

Do you havea chance?? Yes I think so
Alrighty now.....Atlanta Texas......20 miles south of Texarkana......trick here is to pull work out of Texarkana.

Want to get your name out everywhere you can.....if you have a business card cutter (or get one off ebay for around $50) or go to GOT PRINT DOT COM.......they have some really great prices for b-cards and 4x5 or 4x6 cards........
Where to place cards....well you're a woman....so think of where women shop ........beauty salons, nail salon, bookstores, dress shops....see the picture here.........and do this in Atlanta as well a Texarkana.......

Do you havea chance?? Yes I think so, but you are the only one that can say for sure.........You say you have only 1 real competitor......take a look at what she ofers and go one or 2 better......as in if she only offers paper prints....make sure to offer metal and gallery wraps.........
Your prices need to be high enuff to make a good profit.......and when asked why you're higher.....it is simply because I offer the best of what is out there product wise....if all you want is a paper print that will only look good for 1-3 yrs then go to so and so.......won't take long and the word will spread that you have super high quality product and the clients will be there......hopefully.......I have never had a problem if a prospective client askedwhere is your 50 picture package for $4.99 like Walmart......i quickly tell them....will never have such an offering and if that is what you really want......go to walmart.

Good Luck

Art Scott

thoth wrote:

Damn straight. It's impossible to give good advice while being pleasant.

Actually it is not hard to give good straight forward advice and be pleasant also.....it is called diplomacy and respect.........

Beginners and others that are not true beginners come and ask for advice and to tell some that just because you're asking for advice means you have no chance or should not have posted in the1st place is just plain rude......it is one thing to be asked for a critique and be total frontal bluntal (like Ted nugent is most of the time) but it is quite different when being asked for business start up questions...........that is where diplomacy and respect for a new person comes in........think like a preacher.....if they were as blunt as some of the comments on this thread they would loose their church in a second..........

jmho

thoth

Art Scott wrote:

Actually it is not hard to give good straight forward advice and be pleasant also.....it is called diplomacy and respect.........

Beginners and others that are not true beginners come and ask for advice and to tell some that just because you're asking for advice means you have no chance or should not have posted in the1st place is just plain rude......it is one thing to be asked for a critique and be total frontal bluntal (like Ted nugent is most of the time) but it is quite different when being asked for business start up questions...........that is where diplomacy and respect for a new person comes in........think like a preacher.....if they were as blunt as some of the comments on this thread they would loose their church in a second..........

jmho

I was being sarcastic, Art.

kingmamaof2

Art Scott wrote:

Alrighty now.....Atlanta Texas......20 miles south of Texarkana......trick here is to pull work out of Texarkana.

Want to get your name out everywhere you can.....if you have a business card cutter (or get one off ebay for around $50) or go to GOT PRINT DOT COM.......they have some really great prices for b-cards and 4x5 or 4x6 cards........
Where to place cards....well you're a woman....so think of where women shop ........beauty salons, nail salon, bookstores, dress shops....see the picture here.........and do this in Atlanta as well a Texarkana.......

Do you havea chance?? Yes I think so, but you are the only one that can say for sure.........You say you have only 1 real competitor......take a look at what she ofers and go one or 2 better......as in if she only offers paper prints....make sure to offer metal and gallery wraps.........
Your prices need to be high enuff to make a good profit.......and when asked why you're higher.....it is simply because I offer the best of what is out there product wise....if all you want is a paper print that will only look good for 1-3 yrs then go to so and so.......won't take long and the word will spread that you have super high quality product and the clients will be there......hopefully.......I have never had a problem if a prospective client askedwhere is your 50 picture package for $4.99 like Walmart......i quickly tell them....will never have such an offering and if that is what you really want......go to walmart.

Good Luck

Yes! Marketing to the Texarkana population is the ticket. Here locally we have two High Schools in town and I was thinking about focusing on Senior portraits right now and then expand to Texarkana later. Great advice about the metal/gallery wraps....would you suggest buying a few examples and showing them to clients after the session??

Art Scott

kingmamaof2 wrote:

Yes! Marketing to the Texarkana population is the ticket. Here locally we have two High Schools in town and I was thinking about focusing on Senior portraits right now and then expand to Texarkana later. Great advice about the metal/gallery wraps....would you suggest buying a few examples and showing them to clients after the session??

does your competition have any samples in the resturants or coffee shops in Atlanta?????
Get a few samples to have on hand before........better before than latter....let's them know upfront........it very well could be that the other photog is very set in her ways and wouldn't change for any reason.

I believe BayPhoto may even have metal wallets...if I did not see them on their site ...then it was either in Rangefinder or Prof. Photog.......just can't remember....................owas it in a dream........I just mioght have had too much to dream last night>>>>>>>>>>>

Art Scott

thoth wrote:

I was being sarcastic, Art.

Hard to tell with a missourian......wink

graham

Agree 10X
I think you are right.

Art Scott wrote:

Actually it is not hard to give good straight forward advice and be pleasant also.....it is called diplomacy and respect.........

Beginners and others that are not true beginners come and ask for advice and to tell some that just because you're asking for advice means you have no chance or should not have posted in the1st place is just plain rude......it is one thing to be asked for a critique and be total frontal bluntal (like Ted nugent is most of the time) but it is quite different when being asked for business start up questions...........that is where diplomacy and respect for a new person comes in........think like a preacher.....if they were as blunt as some of the comments on this thread they would loose their church in a second..........

jmho

Surfdog

kingmamaof2 wrote:

I'm here!! I haven't left the thread....I do have a day job actually. I have been reading everything and taking it all in. I am not giving up or leaving. Just have realized that I have a looong way to go, so it will take time. Thank you all for the comments on the site, I'm trying to make it look somewhat professional. I'm located in Atlanta, TX-sorry I guess I should put that in the profile. Yes, I'm young and clueless when it come to business. I'm an RN- not a marketing grad. Didn't ask for sugar coating nor did I throw a hissy fit-or whatever, sorry that I came across like that to some. Just asked that the post be removed as asking the question was stupid on my part. I don't know these things-I have never been in this sub forum before. Anyway, Thanks guys for the advice!! I'm going to start by buying some books/researching and continue surfing this forum.:D

I ate at a really good catfish place in Atlanta quite a few years back. All I remember is the food was great and an autographed photo of Tracy Lawrence was on the wall by the counter. You have alot of beautiful scenery for portraits in your area that I wish I had down here in South Texas. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

ColoradoSkier

kingmamaof2 wrote:

Yes! Marketing to the Texarkana population is the ticket. Here locally we have two High Schools in town and I was thinking about focusing on Senior portraits right now and then expand to Texarkana later. Great advice about the metal/gallery wraps....would you suggest buying a few examples and showing them to clients after the session??

Make sure that this spring you talk to the yearbook staff at each high school. They will start putting together a list of photographers that they give out to incoming Seniors in the fall, if they don't already do it to the Juniors. You want to be on that list or included in their packet (I have seen both done).

kingmamaof2

ColoradoSkier wrote:

Make sure that this spring you talk to the yearbook staff at each high school. They will start putting together a list of photographers that they give out to incoming Seniors in the fall, if they don't already do it to the Juniors. You want to be on that list or included in their packet (I have seen both done).

Great idea! I will check into that. Thanks Surfdog for the comments, yes, I know the catfish place you are talking about. How neat! Right now everything is in bloom, some fields look like a giant carpet of flowers-I only wish I had some people to photograph in them. In due time I suppose!