... I liked the child at the door from day one, but to tell the truth, I probably would have pulled it, not as a bad picture, or a lesser picture, just because I had been there, done that and looked at that picture a bit long at that point. I am glad I didn't pull that picture. I am just so proud to once, even if just once, have been "judged" subjectively to be a "real" photographer along with some people I consider great photographers, it gives me a lot of warm fuzzies...
ginger
Ginger,
I didn't just like your "child at the door," ( I saw it more as "hope exposed.")
I really loved it. I had a terrible time making a decision between what were my two favorites, in the last run.
You captured a clip of society in that shot, that made me feel somehow uncomfortable, and then want to reach out and hug the child close. It really is a wonderful photo, and shows your potential...
It's hard to look at your own work and say I really could have done this better... I should have seen more, changed my position, been more forgiving in the shot, less forgiving, cropped out more, or less... Sometimes an opportunity arrises and we just shoot... But don't stop there, keep shooting... Shoot until the scene has really closed. Sometimes the best shots come in the moments just before, or after, the climax occurs. Then again, sometimes nothing works, and you just pick up the camera, and keep at it.
You're doing some really nice work... Pulling yourself along nicely, I think. Just keep at it... Like we do with life, one breath at a time.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I didn't make it. 's OK, always next time. There's always been a cutdown, from day one. Otherwise, far too many for a poll.
Waxy ...you have missed my point entirely. I am talking about several peoples photos not being allowed to be judged by their peers in a group. No one really knows any ones work here except maybe andys & PF's i recon i could pick... hell for all i know some may be getting a pro to take their shot & claiming it.
I was in a much much larger photo group where a lot were pros & everyone was allowed all to throw up their shots. I actually feel somewhat saddened to realise that i am in a group that would do this. Have you ever seen a newbie having a go in YM ?...what a place to open a door of 'eh ?...but i tell you what mate, you wont see someone there tell them they are not up to a standard.
Anyway i know i am in a minority here with this & i will deal with it...if i had known about this in the start (ie sat & read the rules) i would never have entered the last comp but would have much rathered go & talk to those that didnt make the cut. I feel like apologizing to them for my ignorance.
A dummy spit in a forum...looks like it to me ..but sometimes you have to say what is on your mind.
Waxy ...you have missed my point entirely. I am talking about several peoples photos not being allowed to be judged by their peers in a group. No one really knows any ones work here except maybe andys & PF's i recon i could pick... hell for all i know some may be getting a pro to take their shot & claiming it.
I was in a much much larger photo group where a lot were pros & everyone was allowed all to throw up their shots. I actually feel somewhat saddened to realise that i am in a group that would do this. Have you ever seen a newbie having a go in YM ?...what a place to open a door of 'eh ?...but i tell you what mate, you wont see someone there tell them they are not up to a standard.
Anyway i know i am in a minority here with this & i will deal with it...if i had known about this in the start (ie sat & read the rules) i would never have entered the last comp but would have much rathered go & talk to those that didnt make the cut. I feel like apologizing to them for my ignorance.
A dummy spit in a forum...looks like it to me ..but sometimes you have to say what is on your mind.
see you on the flip side mate.
do you really think that for the honor of winning a fortnightly contest with a $25 value prize, someone would go to the trouble of getting a pro to take their shot for them?
the real purpose of the dgrin challenge is to grow and learn as a photographer. you get real-time critique and feedback, and every two weeks you get to compete against others.
i'll say it again, nobody gets alienated, humungus. i take the time to critique and comment on every single entry.
i'm really sorry you feel so strongly against the challenge format. i hope you will continue to contribute, we want you to stay. btw, you *did* notice that you were a finalist in the last challenge, and that after the end i gave comments and critique to all the finalists, too?
Humungus, I think you're right, I don't understand the issue. Is it that only three (soon to be one) are permitted for submission? Or is it that there's a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on? He'p me.
Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.
Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.
hi wolf, please .. butt in all you like! that's what makes the forum so great
it's not practical to vote for the finalists, and then vote on the finalists.... it gets very confusing.
as benevolent host of the dgrin challenges, i am switzerland and sweden rolled into one ..... uber-neutral ...
we're going to keep it this way for a while. i hope humungus keeps participating, afterall, he's got .500 average in reaching the finalists thus far and i really like his style, posts, and photography...
Humungus, I think you're right, I don't understand the issue. Is it that only three (soon to be one) are permitted for submission? Or is it that there's a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on? He'p me.
Sid,
Dan is out of sorts because of "a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on." I see a different side to that, in that if every entry is to be voted upon, and none culled at all, then at some point in the very near future, there will be too many entrants and the very real possibility that none will receive a "majority" vote and that would render the whole concept of the challenge a moot issue.
It's a sorry state of affairs that a simple "challenge" can cause such a brouhaha, when really (at least I thought) this was supposed to be a fun place to show our work among our peers, all within a learning forum.
ginette
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Dan is out of sorts because of "a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on." I see a different side to that, in that if every entry is to be voted upon, and none culled at all, then at some point in the very near future, there will be too many entrants and the very real possibility that none will receive a "majority" vote and that would render the whole concept of the challenge a moot issue.
It's a sorry state of affairs that a simple "challenge" can cause such a brouhaha, when really (at least I thought) this was supposed to be a fun place to show our work among our peers, all within a learning forum.
ginette
How about dropping the submissions per person to 1 and then letting us all vote on all entries. I know that I have had a little bit of negative feeling about folks submitting multiples and I was pleased to see that is being dealt with. I also agree somewhat with humungus in that the first time that I realized that the shots were being culled, I was disappointed. To tell you the truth, I would have culled a different set and I recognise that the culling process is inherently personal. Probably there are any number of us who do not feel the same thrill to submit as we did at the start.
I wouldn't have even raised the issue but with it here already, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.
Charles Richmond IT & Security Consultant
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Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.
Thankyou !
That is how i have seen it in other forums & i had assumed... incorrectly that that is how we were doing it. The one particular forum i mentioned ....there was an area that every one simply posted their thumbnails into & anyone could view at any time & vote in order. No finalists...just 1st throught to maybe 30th sometimes. The list never seemed to overflow with too many entries..it was sort of self leveling, some stayed ....others left.
I am very passionate about keeping this a "totally open" forum. No-one is excluded from having a go. I also realise that andy isnt getting $200/hour for his time & his time explaing other stuff is invaluable.
I'll pull my head in at this point as i had never intended to heat debate ..just wanted a fair go for all.
Cool, got it, at last. Thanks. I guess there are different philosophies. I kinda figured there was a physical limit to the number of options we can have in a poll. Not sure the software can allow us to have a vote on every entry.
As for the cull, I see what you mean. When Fish said we were going to vote on a cut-down selection, my only issue was the impartiality of whoever was doing the cutting down. Andy's seen to that by not submitting photos. No way around the subjectivity of it, of course. Unless a panel votes on the cutdown, but that would be cumbersome, I reckon.
Still and all, as long as Andy's willing to put the work in, I'm all for going along with the rules. It's a lot of work for the lad... and occasionally, a bit of a headache!
I have pretty strong feelings when I read through all these posts challenging the contest & its rules. I've actually came back to my response several times over the day, never knowing when too hit submit, or edit more out...this is the short version.
This is the first contest that I have ever entered. I've never even submitted a photo to any POTD sites. I felt comfortable enough with this forum and the people that contribute to submit my entry. This is a VERY friendly and open forum.
As far as how Andy is running the contest, I can't say how much I appreciate his hard work. This is truly a thankless position. I feel that he is moving it in the right direction with limiting the number of entries per person to one, and bringing the finalists down to 5 from 10. This will streamline the contest thread, save hours of his time and make the challenge easier to follow for everyone. This will help everyone become a better photographer and submit their best work. Isn't this what we are here for in the first place?
Lets try to show Andy some appreciation vs. grill him over this.
Andy, if you need any help, just let me know what I can do.
I have pretty strong feelings when I read through all these posts challenging the contest & its rules. I've actually came back to my response several times over the day, never knowing when too hit submit, or edit more out...this is the short version.
This is the first contest that I have ever entered. I've never even submitted a photo to any POTD sites. I felt comfortable enough with this forum and the people that contribute to submit my entry. This is a VERY friendly and open forum.
As far as how Andy is running the contest, I can't say how much I appreciate his hard work. This is truly a thankless position. I feel that he is moving it in the right direction with limiting the number of entries per person to one, and bringing the finalists down to 5 from 10. This will streamline the contest thread, save hours of his time and make the challenge easier to follow for everyone. This will help everyone become a better photographer and submit their best work. Isn't this what we are here for in the first place?
Lets try to show Andy some appreciation vs. grill him over this.
Andy, if you need any help, just let me know what I can do.
"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue -- that is why academic politics are so bitter."
Wallace S. Sayre, quoted in Charles Issawi, "Issawi's Laws of Social Motion" (1973)
My self restraint just gave way and I have to add my two cents.
The challenge in its current format is Andy's game and he has poured his valuable energy and time into it. Andy is a professional photographer and has a wonderful eye. He charges and (presumably) gets good money to teach photography; people travel to NYC to take his workshops. The feedback he offers in this forum is very valuable. It's a wonderful gift that he has undertaken to run the challenge and provide everyone feedback on at least one photo/week. The prestige of Andy's challenge will be established or not by the quality of entries and the quality of judging and feedback.
Fine. But what does Andy have that 'Gus and the rest of us don't? Well, depending on which of us you compare him to, there is photographic talent, taste, knowledge, experience, stature, &etc. But speaking very concretely, all he has is:
The ability to make a sticky thread, and
A prize worth about $25 to give every two weeks.
If there were an alternative challenge format that enough of us believed in, I think we could overcome 2 and probably even 1. Or maybe 1 wouldn't matter because we'd get so many submissions and discussion. I'm a computer engineer and a logic nerd by profession, so it is very easy for me to be creative about contest formats:
Preferential voting -- everyone ranks all the photos from highest to lowest. This kind of voting is well knows to work well in situations where there are a large number of candidates for a few number of voters. This is sort of like Zagats.
The cull is done by the winner of the previous contest, who is ineligible for the current (to make him/her benevolent.)
Ok, I'll stop. I can do this essentially forever. And that's sort of the point. A photographic competition would have to be compelling in some way in order to compete with Andy's, just as Andy's competition (and dgrin in general) has to be very compelling in order to compete with Fred Miranda's WA and MA or Kodak's POTD. Andy has differentiated his contest from those contests by making the culling process transparent and providing lots of feedback. The only fault I can find with it is that I'd like to see the feedback he has provided the finalists. I think I could learn as much from that as from the feedback I've gotten about my own entries.
'Gus, how would we differentiate an alternative contest? By some very democratic voting process? By a large prize? A monthly instead of weekly format? If we have something worth trying, there is really nothing stopping us. But I hope we don't discourage Andy from his benevolent moderation of the current challenge.
The challenge in its current format is Andy's game and he has poured his valuable energy and time into it. Andy is a professional photographer and has a wonderful eye. He charges and (presumably) gets good money to teach photography; people travel to NYC to take his workshops. The feedback he offers in this forum is very valuable. It's a wonderful gift that he has undertaken to run the challenge and provide everyone feedback on at least one photo/week. The prestige of Andy's challenge will be established or not by the quality of entries and the quality of judging and feedback.
Fine. But what does Andy have that 'Gus and the rest of us don't? Well, depending on which of us you compare him to, there is photographic talent, taste, knowledge, experience, stature, &etc. But speaking very concretely, all he has is:
The ability to make a sticky thread, and
A prize worth about $25 to give every two weeks.
If there were an alternative challenge format that enough of us believed in, I think we could overcome 2 and probably even 1. Or maybe 1 wouldn't matter because we'd get so many submissions and discussion. I'm a computer engineer and a logic nerd by profession, so it is very easy for me to be creative about contest formats:
Preferential voting -- everyone ranks all the photos from highest to lowest. This kind of voting is well knows to work well in situations where there are a large number of candidates for a few number of voters. This is sort of like Zagats.
The cull is done by the winner of the previous contest, who is ineligible for the current (to make him/her benevolent.)
Ok, I'll stop. I can do this essentially forever. And that's sort of the point. A photographic competition would have to be compelling in some way in order to compete with Andy's, just as Andy's competition (and dgrin in general) has to be very compelling in order to compete with Fred Miranda's WA and MA or Kodak's POTD. Andy has differentiated his contest from those contests by making the culling process transparent and providing lots of feedback. The only fault I can find with it is that I'd like to see the feedback he has provided the finalists. I think I could learn as much from that as from the feedback I've gotten about my own entries.
'Gus, how would we differentiate an alternative contest? By some very democratic voting process? By a large prize? A monthly instead of weekly format? If we have something worth trying, there is really nothing stopping us. But I hope we don't discourage Andy from his benevolent moderation of the current challenge.
first, i thank you for the kind words about me, my work, and the challenges here at dgrin. also for your possible suggestions -- which *may* be incorporated in the future at some point -- just not right now
one very very important thing i've fogotten to mention in this thread here: the forum voting software only allows up to 10 choices for voting. it take at least two hours total time to cull the present number of entries down to 10 choices. imagine when we have even more! and, i am not going to get into any sort of manual voting process....
i am an active contributor over on the sony forum at dpreview, and i've participated in the fortnightly challenges there for the past year. the way it works there, is if you win, you host the next challenge. i've had the good fortune to host several of these challenges ( ) . participation is huge - as many as 250 entries. the voting is a manual process (voters post their votes in a thread) and the host has the *lovely* job of tallying the votes. when there's a close vote, you have to count all the votes a second time. and maybe a third. this can take hours. it's not pretty, but the competition is so stiff that i continue to enter every two weeks - it keeps my skills up, yes, but most importantly, i learn something new by participating in every challenge. to me, that's what it's all about.
so, what's my point? here:
let's remember what the purpose of the dgrin challenges is: to challenge ourselves, to think outside of the box, to try a new form or style of photography, to ask tons of questions, to study and learn from other photographers, and other sources, to become more self-critical, to become more receptive of constructive criticism, and oh yeah - to compete to win.
notice what came last?
every other monday, after you've submitted your best work, feel the satisfaction that you've challenged yourself, learned something, and improved your skills. vote for the best of the finalists, have a celebratory drinkor doughnut, and start thinking about the next round :duel
Even though I haven't contributed to any of the Challanges here yet, I know you have much work involved in what you do. So, I would like to say Thanks. I have enjoyed looking at the submissions and reading all of the advice, tips and comments that are offered up. I hope to submit something worthy one day and hope to learn from the experience! Thanks again!
first, i thank you for the kind words about me, my work, and the challenges here at dgrin. also for your possible suggestions -- which *may* be incorporated in the future at some point -- just not right now
Just to make the point of my post very clear, I only made one small suggestion for your challenge -- post the feedback for the finalists as well as for the shots that don't make the cut. I think I would learn as much from that as I do from the feedback for the also rans. This isn't a hard change and I think it would add a lot. We want to know why you like what you like best as well as knowing what you have to say about the ones that don't make it. Do consider doing this, it's no extra work for you; you've already written the critiques.
The other suggestions were aimed at 'Gus, not at you. If he wants to start up some other sort of contest, he can; what's to stop him? He'd have to compete with you for "eyeballs" and for participation. In order for that to happen, he'd have to offer something to differentiate his contest. I was giving examples of that.
Just to make the point of my post very clear, I only made one small suggestion for your challenge -- post the feedback for the finalists as well as for the shots that don't make the cut. I think I would learn as much from that as I do from the feedback for the also rans. This isn't a hard change and I think it would add a lot. We want to know why you like what you like best as well as knowing what you have to say about the ones that don't make it. Do consider doing this, it's no extra work for you; you've already written the critiques.
The other suggestions were aimed at 'Gus, not at you. If he wants to start up some other sort of contest, he can; what's to stop him? He'd have to compete with you for "eyeballs" and for participation. In order for that to happen, he'd have to offer something to differentiate his contest. I was giving examples of that.
they are short & sweet but i'm working on that... thanks for your contribution to this thread & discussion!
Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?
And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.
Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?
And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.
___________________________________
This feedback on Challenge 13 was not hidden. I have already seen, read and memorized what I just saw now. It was posted obviously enough last time that I saw it.
I don't think Andy could comment on why the #1 photo was voted "best". It was only picked by him to be one of the 10 finalists. The rest of us voted, for whatever, various reasons, for the winning photo. Andy would not know why I voted, or why you voted.
I hope people remember that this is subjective, as good as Andy is, as good as you are, as good as............... It is art, it is subjective. There is no way around that, no matter who voted or how many times. Have faith in your work, be glad, I am, for a place where it is seen and commented on.
(Andy, if you didn't win on dpreview, you wouldn't have to go to all that work the next time around, )
ginger
I don't think Andy could comment on why the #1 photo was voted "best". It was only picked by him to be one of the 10 finalists. The rest of us voted, for whatever, various reasons, for the winning photo. Andy would not know why I voted, or why you voted.
But his feedback on this shot as a finalist was missing. Presumably he wrote that when he selected it.
Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?
And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.
But his feedback on this shot as a finalist was missing. Presumably he wrote that when he selected it.
_________________
I remember, I think accurately, I just looked, the winner the last time was that dramatic black and white shot, everything else, like the name and photographer I have forgotten. You can look it up. But the comment from Andy was with it as he congratulated the winner. Great lighting, composition, etc........
ginger
What's Up at FM (Selection Process)
[font=Geneva, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi everyone,
We have decided to make a small change in the weekly assignment finalist's selection process.
Currently, Daschund and I choose the finalists by a selective process. Then, your votes decide which photos make it as the top three winners. We have been able to execute this every Monday for over a year and with your help, have maintained a high level of WA winners.
However, choosing the finalists every week is a lot of responsibility on our shoulders and we both feel that more of this job should be shared with the participants.
Starting this week, the current WA first place winner will join us as a guest judge and choose 5 submissions for the finalists. Daschund and I will also choose 5 finalists each. We will then have a total of 15 selections every week. The number of total finalists posted for voting will vary depending on how many duplicates we have. It could be 5 finalists if we happen to choose the same images or 15 finalists if we choose different images.
The WA 117: dougbfl first place winner, will be invited as a guest judge this week. Of course it is his option to decide whether or not he wants to participate. (Therefore, in case the first place winner decides not to participate, the current WA second place winner would be invited as a judge instead.)
We take pride and enjoy selecting WA finalists and hope that this new selection process will benefit us all. I look forward to seeing your entries this week.
Interesting that they felt the need to change this just when I had begun to think they were getting stale and were not choosing the best images. Interesting that they changed to a format so close to one that I've been considering. Makes me feel like a *$&%* genius. Bush should hire me to solve the war in Iraq.
Interesting that they felt the need to change this just when I had begun to think they were getting stale and were not choosing the best images. Interesting that they changed to a format so close to one that I've been considering. Makes me feel like a *$&%* genius. Bush should hire me to solve the war in Iraq.
Comments
I didn't just like your "child at the door," ( I saw it more as "hope exposed.")
I really loved it. I had a terrible time making a decision between what were my two favorites, in the last run.
You captured a clip of society in that shot, that made me feel somehow uncomfortable, and then want to reach out and hug the child close. It really is a wonderful photo, and shows your potential...
It's hard to look at your own work and say I really could have done this better... I should have seen more, changed my position, been more forgiving in the shot, less forgiving, cropped out more, or less... Sometimes an opportunity arrises and we just shoot... But don't stop there, keep shooting... Shoot until the scene has really closed. Sometimes the best shots come in the moments just before, or after, the climax occurs. Then again, sometimes nothing works, and you just pick up the camera, and keep at it.
You're doing some really nice work... Pulling yourself along nicely, I think. Just keep at it... Like we do with life, one breath at a time.
ginette
ok...
I guess that means we can't be shooting for the assignment, either?:(:
I was in a much much larger photo group where a lot were pros & everyone was allowed all to throw up their shots. I actually feel somewhat saddened to realise that i am in a group that would do this. Have you ever seen a newbie having a go in YM ?...what a place to open a door of 'eh ?...but i tell you what mate, you wont see someone there tell them they are not up to a standard.
Anyway i know i am in a minority here with this & i will deal with it...if i had known about this in the start (ie sat & read the rules) i would never have entered the last comp but would have much rathered go & talk to those that didnt make the cut. I feel like apologizing to them for my ignorance.
A dummy spit in a forum...looks like it to me ..but sometimes you have to say what is on your mind.
see you on the flip side mate.
do you really think that for the honor of winning a fortnightly contest with a $25 value prize, someone would go to the trouble of getting a pro to take their shot for them?
the real purpose of the dgrin challenge is to grow and learn as a photographer. you get real-time critique and feedback, and every two weeks you get to compete against others.
i'll say it again, nobody gets alienated, humungus. i take the time to critique and comment on every single entry.
i'm really sorry you feel so strongly against the challenge format. i hope you will continue to contribute, we want you to stay. btw, you *did* notice that you were a finalist in the last challenge, and that after the end i gave comments and critique to all the finalists, too?
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Suprised myself, actually: when I saw it in the galleries of the finalists, I immediately gravitated towards it. A wonderful shot.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
hi wolf, please .. butt in all you like! that's what makes the forum so great
it's not practical to vote for the finalists, and then vote on the finalists.... it gets very confusing.
as benevolent host of the dgrin challenges, i am switzerland and sweden rolled into one ..... uber-neutral ...
we're going to keep it this way for a while. i hope humungus keeps participating, afterall, he's got .500 average in reaching the finalists thus far
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Sid,
Dan is out of sorts because of "a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on." I see a different side to that, in that if every entry is to be voted upon, and none culled at all, then at some point in the very near future, there will be too many entrants and the very real possibility that none will receive a "majority" vote and that would render the whole concept of the challenge a moot issue.
It's a sorry state of affairs that a simple "challenge" can cause such a brouhaha, when really (at least I thought) this was supposed to be a fun place to show our work among our peers, all within a learning forum.
ginette
I wouldn't have even raised the issue but with it here already, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
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That is how i have seen it in other forums & i had assumed... incorrectly that that is how we were doing it. The one particular forum i mentioned ....there was an area that every one simply posted their thumbnails into & anyone could view at any time & vote in order. No finalists...just 1st throught to maybe 30th sometimes. The list never seemed to overflow with too many entries..it was sort of self leveling, some stayed ....others left.
I am very passionate about keeping this a "totally open" forum. No-one is excluded from having a go. I also realise that andy isnt getting $200/hour for his time & his time explaing other stuff is invaluable.
I'll pull my head in at this point as i had never intended to heat debate ..just wanted a fair go for all.
As for the cull, I see what you mean. When Fish said we were going to vote on a cut-down selection, my only issue was the impartiality of whoever was doing the cutting down. Andy's seen to that by not submitting photos. No way around the subjectivity of it, of course. Unless a panel votes on the cutdown, but that would be cumbersome, I reckon.
Still and all, as long as Andy's willing to put the work in, I'm all for going along with the rules. It's a lot of work for the lad... and occasionally, a bit of a headache!
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
This is the first contest that I have ever entered. I've never even submitted a photo to any POTD sites. I felt comfortable enough with this forum and the people that contribute to submit my entry. This is a VERY friendly and open forum.
As far as how Andy is running the contest, I can't say how much I appreciate his hard work. This is truly a thankless position. I feel that he is moving it in the right direction with limiting the number of entries per person to one, and bringing the finalists down to 5 from 10. This will streamline the contest thread, save hours of his time and make the challenge easier to follow for everyone. This will help everyone become a better photographer and submit their best work. Isn't this what we are here for in the first place?
Lets try to show Andy some appreciation vs. grill him over this.
Andy, if you need any help, just let me know what I can do.
Dave
http://www.lifekapptured.com (gallery)
gubbs.smugmug.com
Wallace S. Sayre, quoted in Charles Issawi, "Issawi's Laws of Social Motion" (1973)
The challenge in its current format is Andy's game and he has poured his valuable energy and time into it. Andy is a professional photographer and has a wonderful eye. He charges and (presumably) gets good money to teach photography; people travel to NYC to take his workshops. The feedback he offers in this forum is very valuable. It's a wonderful gift that he has undertaken to run the challenge and provide everyone feedback on at least one photo/week. The prestige of Andy's challenge will be established or not by the quality of entries and the quality of judging and feedback.
Fine. But what does Andy have that 'Gus and the rest of us don't? Well, depending on which of us you compare him to, there is photographic talent, taste, knowledge, experience, stature, &etc. But speaking very concretely, all he has is:
- The ability to make a sticky thread, and
- A prize worth about $25 to give every two weeks.
If there were an alternative challenge format that enough of us believed in, I think we could overcome 2 and probably even 1. Or maybe 1 wouldn't matter because we'd get so many submissions and discussion. I'm a computer engineer and a logic nerd by profession, so it is very easy for me to be creative about contest formats:- Preferential voting -- everyone ranks all the photos from highest to lowest. This kind of voting is well knows to work well in situations where there are a large number of candidates for a few number of voters. This is sort of like Zagats.
- The cull is done by the winner of the previous contest, who is ineligible for the current (to make him/her benevolent.)
Ok, I'll stop. I can do this essentially forever. And that's sort of the point. A photographic competition would have to be compelling in some way in order to compete with Andy's, just as Andy's competition (and dgrin in general) has to be very compelling in order to compete with Fred Miranda's WA and MA or Kodak's POTD. Andy has differentiated his contest from those contests by making the culling process transparent and providing lots of feedback. The only fault I can find with it is that I'd like to see the feedback he has provided the finalists. I think I could learn as much from that as from the feedback I've gotten about my own entries.'Gus, how would we differentiate an alternative contest? By some very democratic voting process? By a large prize? A monthly instead of weekly format? If we have something worth trying, there is really nothing stopping us. But I hope we don't discourage Andy from his benevolent moderation of the current challenge.
first, i thank you for the kind words about me, my work, and the challenges here at dgrin. also for your possible suggestions -- which *may* be incorporated in the future at some point -- just not right now
one very very important thing i've fogotten to mention in this thread here: the forum voting software only allows up to 10 choices for voting. it take at least two hours total time to cull the present number of entries down to 10 choices. imagine when we have even more! and, i am not going to get into any sort of manual voting process....
i am an active contributor over on the sony forum at dpreview, and i've participated in the fortnightly challenges there for the past year. the way it works there, is if you win, you host the next challenge. i've had the good fortune to host several of these challenges (
so, what's my point? here:
let's remember what the purpose of the dgrin challenges is: to challenge ourselves, to think outside of the box, to try a new form or style of photography, to ask tons of questions, to study and learn from other photographers, and other sources, to become more self-critical, to become more receptive of constructive criticism, and oh yeah - to compete to win.
notice what came last?
every other monday, after you've submitted your best work, feel the satisfaction that you've challenged yourself, learned something, and improved your skills. vote for the best of the finalists, have a celebratory drinkor doughnut, and start thinking about the next round :duel
enjoy (challenging *yourself*) photography,
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Even though I haven't contributed to any of the Challanges here yet, I know you have much work involved in what you do. So, I would like to say Thanks. I have enjoyed looking at the submissions and reading all of the advice, tips and comments that are offered up. I hope to submit something worthy one day and hope to learn from the experience! Thanks again!
The other suggestions were aimed at 'Gus, not at you. If he wants to start up some other sort of contest, he can; what's to stop him? He'd have to compete with you for "eyeballs" and for participation. In order for that to happen, he'd have to offer something to differentiate his contest. I was giving examples of that.
i've already done that...
here are my comments on the finalists for challenge 13
they are short & sweet but i'm working on that... thanks for your contribution to this thread & discussion!
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And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.
___________________________________
This feedback on Challenge 13 was not hidden. I have already seen, read and memorized what I just saw now. It was posted obviously enough last time that I saw it.
I don't think Andy could comment on why the #1 photo was voted "best". It was only picked by him to be one of the 10 finalists. The rest of us voted, for whatever, various reasons, for the winning photo. Andy would not know why I voted, or why you voted.
I hope people remember that this is subjective, as good as Andy is, as good as you are, as good as............... It is art, it is subjective. There is no way around that, no matter who voted or how many times. Have faith in your work, be glad, I am, for a place where it is seen and commented on.
(Andy, if you didn't win on dpreview, you wouldn't have to go to all that work the next time around,
ginger
well now that was an oversight on my part :bash
here is my comment on wxwax's winning shot from the past challenge
for this one, i will post my comments after the voting closes. thanks.
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_________________
I remember, I think accurately, I just looked, the winner the last time was that dramatic black and white shot, everything else, like the name and photographer I have forgotten. You can look it up. But the comment from Andy was with it as he congratulated the winner. Great lighting, composition, etc........
ginger
When does voting close? I thought it was about 48 hours....Monday night to Wednesday night?
Dave
http://www.lifekapptured.com (gallery)
12noon nyc time today, thursday
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[font=Geneva, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi everyone,
We have decided to make a small change in the weekly assignment finalist's selection process.
Currently, Daschund and I choose the finalists by a selective process. Then, your votes decide which photos make it as the top three winners. We have been able to execute this every Monday for over a year and with your help, have maintained a high level of WA winners.
However, choosing the finalists every week is a lot of responsibility on our shoulders and we both feel that more of this job should be shared with the participants.
Starting this week, the current WA first place winner will join us as a guest judge and choose 5 submissions for the finalists. Daschund and I will also choose 5 finalists each. We will then have a total of 15 selections every week. The number of total finalists posted for voting will vary depending on how many duplicates we have. It could be 5 finalists if we happen to choose the same images or 15 finalists if we choose different images.
The WA 117: dougbfl first place winner, will be invited as a guest judge this week. Of course it is his option to decide whether or not he wants to participate. (Therefore, in case the first place winner decides not to participate, the current WA second place winner would be invited as a judge instead.)
We take pride and enjoy selecting WA finalists and hope that this new selection process will benefit us all. I look forward to seeing your entries this week.
All the best,
Fred [/font]