First let me say I enjoyed visiting your website. A few notes on your site: You may want to consider enable right click protection, and a watermark.
Second, maybe you could answer the OP as to why your download pricing is where it's at. I think your an example of what he calls ridicules high.
Now to the meat. Many offer their opinions and experience here for free. I have , and will continue to benefited from this. One example is Marc Munch (there are so many others I couldn't list them all and use Marc as an example for all of them). He is a high end experienced successful professional photographer who offers his expertise here a for free. When Marc or many many others here post an opinion or information whether I agree or not I sure do pay attention.
I don't think the people her who are answering the OP have expressed any claims of being a "friggin" great photographer. But most do have a lot more experience that the OP who admits to being new.
The OP comes across (my personal opinion) with the arrogance of youth, close mindedness, inexperience, ignorance and a know it all attitude. This is not meant as an attack or to be confrontational but what I see.
Ignore me......but there are so many people here with years of experience and knowledge freely given. You / me have the ability to learn at an accelerated pace beyond what was possible in the past, but you must work and apply yourself.
The OP stated (seemed to mock) and state his images were better than the guys with those expensive white lenses. While I find that hard to believe I did ask for examples and evidence to look at. The approaches to the OP's questions have come from a quality and business standpoint, yet both approaches / answers seem to be totally ignored. The OP can't seem to grasp common business principals, and calls other photographers greedy outsiders who aren't selling anything. As stated before if they weren't selling anything they wouldn't continue to show up.
The costs associated with a real business and those of a part time hobbyist are vastly different.
OK the OP asked for opinions, I will offer mine based on the partial information available.
The pro photographers you speak of have a lot (10K, 20K, 30K) worth of equipment that has to be paid for. They need compensation for their time and experience. Selling original / full res images cheaply without any use restrictions is cutting their own throats.
At this point the OP seems to be taking photos at a local club level. The quality is that of a beginner, and I haven't seen anything really compelling or of national interest. He is right about many people today preferring digital downloads to prints, but from a business standpoint is it better / more profitable to offer a file for say $3.00 or to not sell it at all?
If you really do the math from a purely business perspective I believe you will find the most profitable choice between these two is to quite photography altogether.
Now I offer a challenge to the OP: print out this entire thread, take it to your minister / priest / mentor / adult / and without any prompting ask them to read it and comment. Then come back and post a response.
Sam
Hi Sam. Thanks for the comments on the site.
I know it's very unorganized, but I'm hoping with the new smart galleries that Smugmug has, I can make it a bit better.
I could do a "no right click or watermark" but really, what's the point?
People with watermarks way at the bottom of their shots can be easily cropped off, and if you put a
huge "Proof" across it, it doesn't play well in forums like this one.
If I can't right click and show my own shots, why have the site?
If you look at the 4th post in this thread, you will see that I did answer the OP's question, without
ever questioning his ethics or business practices.
You use Marc as an example, so I will also.
I have met Marc on a few different Smugmug shootouts.
He, Dave Porter, and Andy are without a doubt some of the best photographers I've shot with.
Marc is an "Artist in Residence" here. He has made many business deals here by advertising his workshops on this site. (on every page it's the top right panel)
Saying that he gives his opinions freely may be a bit of a stretch.
Not knowing who the OP is shooting against, his shots may be better.
I believe he said that he used to race, I do believe, at least in the short run, he would have an
advantage over someone like me taking shots there.
I may know the right aperture, he knows when a rider is in trouble, or when they'll start their turn, etc.
I know pros have a lot of cash tied up in their equipment. So do hobbyists.
I have 5DMKII, 7D, 300 f2.8. and lets just say a lot more stuff, and I've never made a dime from taking photos.
I've won a couple of contests, but no cash. (OK, one was just as good as cash, but more like a trade)
I do know a few photographers that have gone the way of selling stock photos. I hear they do well with it,
and don't have to advertise or market anything. Just cash the checks every month.
Of course, these are people who do this as a supplement to their income, not the main source of it.
As for OP being young and sure of himself, is there a better way to go into business?
Should he print it out and have others read it, I hope the first question asked by said reader would be,
"Why didn't these people answer your question?)
It's not a matter of selling twice the volume at half price. It's a matter of either selling pics..... or NOT selling any pics.
That's exactly what its about.
Why do 100 weddings for $20 each, when you can do 1 wedding for $2000.
Sure, the guy giving away his services for next to nothing is going to look like he's doing well... but he's not.
Keep selling yourself short, all you're doing is giving yourself the reputation as "the cheap guy'. Meanwhile, the other shooters are selling their services at what they believe its worth.
You guys also assume that I am selling dirt cheap.
Don't have to assume, I can just go to your site and see what you are charging. But this is all a subjective call to some degree or another, right? In my opinion your individual digital files ARE dirt cheap. Ditto with your print prices. You won't agree. Its not a point worth arguing. I think you're charging $3 per file. I charge $10 per file, or $60 per CD. Personally I think I'm low, but look at my competion, they're roughly the same around here. And like you, most my sales are digital files or CD's. Most prints are customized, such as a collage of images or a print-on-metal. I sell very few "normal" prints. And if I were to lower my print prices that would not change. Ditto if I lower my file prices, the volumes won't go up. I have a few years of data to back this up.
We both hit the same market, amatuer track day racing. Neither of us are doing big-budget series or selling commercially to sponsors or profit-making racing teams. Roger Penske is not a possible client of mine.
I'm not paying the mortgage doing this a few times a year. I don't "need" to charge what I do. I could "afford" to do this and charge next to nothing for it. But I don't. Gotta be a reason for it. Its not because I'm the old pro with archaic ideas on how this business should be run that you seem to think I am.
But I am going to be really interested in how you feel about your pricing and your competitor's pricing after you've done this for a year. Or if you start hitting tracks where you don't know all the riders already. You've just started out. You have some very strong opinions for someone with very limited time doing this.
Bill, in some ways you may be comparing apples to oranges without even realizing it. I looked at the OP's profile after seeing your location listed as Austin TX. I found his profile to show St. Louis, MO. I am NOT into racing at all; but wonder how the market in these two locations compares.
Your right! I missed it. But unfortunately, if say you put a price up of $10,000.00 per image file, but are not Annie Leibovitz, or have any track record of selling at this rate, I don't believe the courts will even consider this as a starting point. Although this could be a reason, if the facts, circumstances are not in keeping with the real world, you have a non acceptable non functional argument.
Your right! I missed it. But unfortunately, if say you put a price up of $10,000.00 per image file, but are not Annie Leibovitz, or have any track record of selling at this rate, I don't believe the courts will even consider this as a starting point. Although this could be a reason, if the facts, circumstances are not in keeping with the real world, you have a non acceptable non functional argument.
Sam
Uh... fellas, why not stick to photography? Let the lawyers do the lawyer stuff.
Dave's attempt at establishing some sort of "value" just in case someone steals an image off the web is a moot point right out of the box.
In a criminal case, he'd need the image registered with the copyright office. In a civil suit he would need to produce documentation showing sales of equal or similar value.
Selling 4x6 prints for .22 cents kind of flies in the face of any sort of defense.
I'd be more concerned with a judge throwing me in jail for contempt... wasting the court's time.
Meanwhile, I really feel you guys are going around this argument to no end.
Establish your business plan based on the time and expenses incurred to produce that product, factor in your talent and expertise value, then assess what you feel the market will bear.... set your price. This is far more important than a "competitor's" price.... unless it doesn't work. If you're not making sales and losing money, perhaps it's time to choose another career or assess the value you've applied to your talent and expertise.
But your formula has to work for YOU and your customers.
Uh... fellas, why not stick to photography? Let the lawyers do the lawyer stuff.
Dave's attempt at establishing some sort of "value" just in case someone steals an image off the web is a moot point right out of the box.
In a criminal case, he'd need the image registered with the copyright office. In a civil suit he would need to produce documentation showing sales of equal or similar value.
Selling 4x6 prints for .22 cents kind of flies in the face of any sort of defense.
I'd be more concerned with a judge throwing me in jail for contempt... wasting the court's time.
Meanwhile, I really feel you guys are going around this argument to no end.
Establish your business plan based on the time and expenses incurred to produce that product, factor in your talent and expertise value, then assess what you feel the market will bear.... set your price. This is far more important than a "competitor's" price.... unless it doesn't work. If you're not making sales and losing money, perhaps it's time to choose another career or assess the value you've applied to your talent and expertise.
But your formula has to work for YOU and your customers.
JT
Good points John, but it's so much fun....sigh...:D
If you have something to add to the OP's question that answers the question or contributes to something someone already said; great. Add it. Otherwise, let's all move on.
Thanks,
Ian
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Wow, this was a nice witch hunt.
A guy asks a very simple question, and a group of people climb all over him.
The question was why some of us charge a lot for downloads.
Is there something hard to understand about this?
Is there some reason to jump all over somebody for darning to ask such a question?
Geez, get over yourselves.
If you were that friggin great of photographers, you wouldn't be here handing out advice for free.
Your posts complaining about what the OP charges proves that point.
And this same old crap about pots and pans. The pots and pans are just the data cards.
You fill them on the stove, or in the oven, and empty them onto a plate.
The stove, oven, ingredients, (camera, lenses, subject) will make the dish.
And if anyone really thinks that you can't learn photography faster now with digital cameras,
than the Masters, (or anyone else) could with film, I'll take a drink of whatever your having.
And one last thing, I've offered this before, and have yet to have anyone take me up on it.
I have an old Fuji MX-700 camera that I will trade you for all your DSLR equipment.
After all, any old pots and pans will do.
Later.
Thanks for the post, Davey!! I do appreciate your support and people COMPLETELY missed the point from the start. I tried to explain.... but it was too late. They wanted to take it somewhere else and somewhat succeeded. Yay for them.
Look, everyone. This was not suppose to be a debate about quality or someone's prices in general. It was about WHY do people price digital downloads so high that no one can afford them. I have ALWAYS suspected it was to sell prints.
I agree with the statement that if you don't want to sell copyrights or are so worried about it... don't offer the original download at all! But I guess if someone is willing to pay, huh? I'm sure that's what some people are thinking.
Merc, you clearly just agreed("EXACTLY", right?) that a DSLR makes things easier and that's all I was saying. You wanted to(AGAIN) twist, turn, and spin something. A DSLR is just a tool that makes it easier. That does NOT mean anyone can pick one up and shoot pro quality photos. Simply being digital makes things easier. Spin THAT any way you want.... but you'll still be wrong.
Anyway, I appreciate all the "good" posts in this thread. I didn't appreciate the "witch hunt" or forcing me to sound "arrogant" or be the bad guy just because some readers can't follow or understand a very clear post. People should slow down and actually absorb what they are reading before they rush to something else all together. I asked a VERY specific question and looked what happened?? It got turned into something completely different than what was intended. It wasn't about someone's whole price structure or why it is that way. I am WELL AWARE that a business needs to recoup costs. My question was about one very specific thing(original downloads) and I'm not sure how I could have been more clear in my first post.
Also, to Sam.... I price my photos appropriately to what my customers can afford... PERIOD.... therefore they buy. Ones that have ridiculous pricing are NOT selling downloads at current pricing.
I don't put a super high price tag on photos to build false value or a reputation as being a good photographer. My prices are fair and my customers are ever grateful for that. Some people have the whole argument that you can't sell twice as much for half price or whatever. They are also missing the point. The point is.... you can't sell something if customers can't afford it. PERIOD! It's pretty simple really..... as were all of my points and questions. Arrogance was not the problem in this thread. The real problem was reading comprehension.
Good points John, but it's so much fun....sigh...:D
Sam
Yay for you!!! I knew from the get go what you were trying to do... hence the "so called" arrogance that you clearly deserved! Hope you had fun. Way to go!
Establish your business plan based on the time and expenses incurred to produce that product, factor in your talent and expertise value, then assess what you feel the market will bear.... set your price. This is far more important than a "competitor's" price.... unless it doesn't work. If you're not making sales and losing money, perhaps it's time to choose another career or assess the value you've applied to your talent and expertise.
But your formula has to work for YOU and your customers.
JT
EXCELLENT post, John!!! I agree 100% with you. Some people just have a hard time grasping the last sentence.
Just to reiterate something for everyone that I posted earlier and it was undoubtedly overlooked or ignored but....... we had a PRO PHOTOGRAPHER at one of our events. This guy did top notch work all the way. He was awesome and he produced some of the finest images ever taken at our events. The problem was... he priced everything with only him and recouping costs in mind. He forgot that people wouldn't be able to afford his images... therefore he didn't sell much and priced himself right out of our events. I guarantee that he actually lost money!!!! Some pricing structure, huh? Well at least he thinks his work is good!
Let's not forget the customer and the recession, everyone.
Don't have to assume, I can just go to your site and see what you are charging. But this is all a subjective call to some degree or another, right? In my opinion your individual digital files ARE dirt cheap. Ditto with your print prices. You won't agree. Its not a point worth arguing. I think you're charging $3 per file. I charge $10 per file, or $60 per CD. .
I sell downloads for $3, $7, $10, $15, and $20. Of course... being the spin master that you are..... you use the $3 figure. My prices are well in line considering your prices are $60 for a whole CD of images... aren't they???? How many images? 20? That's $3 an image but you are telling me I'm low??? IS this all seriously some kind of big joke? Do you just like to argue and stir things up like Sam basically admitted to?
But, as usual, the whole point was missed. It wasn't about someone's pricing structure or bashing someone's prices. The whole point was about someone pricing themselves out of a particular sale.
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John ThawleyRegistered UsersPosts: 5Beginner grinner
But, as usual, the whole point was missed. It wasn't about someone's pricing structure or bashing someone's prices. The whole point was about someone pricing themselves out of a particular sale.
MMMmmmm.... well, I appreciate you agreeing with my comments, but I think perhaps you missed the point, $3 downloads aren't a market at all. In fact, you're destroying the market. The guy you mention that had the "best work you've ever seen" wasn't unsuccessful because of his work, it was because others have come into the space and are giving their work away. (IMO $3 is giving your work away.)
If you build crappy cheap houses in a neighborhood and don't provide services that maintain the quality of life, that neighborhood will become rundown and ultimately be abandoned. If you build a shopping center populate it with marginal businesses with improper funding and no advertising budget, they'll ultimately disappear into the night and we'll have another vacant rundown strip center.
You have BUILD business. You have to grow business and do it in a way that will sustain itself based on good value, good service and fair pricing. You should run your business with pride and present your products, service and work with pride. IMHO.
Sorry... and this isn't a personal attack on you... \
Destroying a market using predatory pricing and business practices doesn't do your craft, business or the business community any good. It is an attitude of "it works for me, screw everyone else." In the end, you will screw everyone else and yourself. Trust me, you can't sustain your business on $3 downloads.
Consider this (I've already figured out you don't do this for a living... but) if you want to earn an annual income of $50,000 per year based on your pricing, you'd need to sell approximately 15,000 images... that's only allowing about $5000 for annual expenses. Are you insured? Do you upgrade your equipment? Do you sleep in a hotel, eat, fill your car with gas?
So, I think you're being unfair criticizing the guy who shot "best work you've ever seen"....
How do you defend that to a customer? Is there personal pride in a sales pitch of "mine may not be as good but its a hell of a lot cheaper?" Sorry... I have more personal pride than that.
And, please don't construe this as some sort of arrogance that some photographers just want to charge as much as they can get away with. If someones work is good and there's a demand, they have every right to charge what the market will bear.
But to "dump" your work at predatory pricing, destroys an industry and the market.
I don't know what you do for a living, but I think if you had a retail store that sold a product of good value that you were selling at a fair price and I came along with a van and parked in front of your door selling something that "looked" the same but cost 5% of the price, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
Again, not an attack on you, but I really think you should reconsider your view on the issue.
MMMmmmm.... well, I appreciate you agreeing with my comments, but I think perhaps you missed the point, $3 downloads aren't a market at all. In fact, you're destroying the market. The guy you mention that had the "best work you've ever seen" wasn't unsuccessful because of his work, it was because others have come into the space and are giving their work away. (IMO $3 is giving your work away.)
If you build crappy cheap houses in a neighborhood and don't provide services that maintain the quality of life, that neighborhood will become rundown and ultimately be abandoned. If you build a shopping center populate it with marginal businesses with improper funding and no advertising budget, they'll ultimately disappear into the night and we'll have another vacant rundown strip center.
You have BUILD business. You have to grow business and do it in a way that will sustain itself based on good value, good service and fair pricing. You should run your business with pride and present your products, service and work with pride. IMHO.
Sorry... and this isn't a personal attack on you... \
Destroying a market using predatory pricing and business practices doesn't do your craft, business or the business community any good. It is an attitude of "it works for me, screw everyone else." In the end, you will screw everyone else and yourself. Trust me, you can't sustain your business on $3 downloads.
Consider this (I've already figured out you don't do this for a living... but) if you want to earn an annual income of $50,000 per year based on your pricing, you'd need to sell approximately 15,000 images... that's only allowing about $5000 for annual expenses. Are you insured? Do you upgrade your equipment? Do you sleep in a hotel, eat, fill your car with gas?
So, I think you're being unfair criticizing the guy who shot "best work you've ever seen"....
How do you defend that to a customer? Is there personal pride in a sales pitch of "mine may not be as good but its a hell of a lot cheaper?" Sorry... I have more personal pride than that.
And, please don't construe this as some sort of arrogance that some photographers just want to charge as much as they can get away with. If someones work is good and there's a demand, they have every right to charge what the market will bear.
But to "dump" your work at predatory pricing, destroys an industry and the market.
I don't know what you do for a living, but I think if you had a retail store that sold a product of good value that you were selling at a fair price and I came along with a van and parked in front of your door selling something that "looked" the same but cost 5% of the price, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
Again, not an attack on you, but I really think you should reconsider your view on the issue.
Quite the evolution in this thread...I'll bite on one of the things you mentioned: predatory pricing and destroying industries. My question is, with what you say about pricing:
Does any hobbyist that sells cheaper than a pro considered predatory and "destroying an industry"? I'm a hobbyist and would be happy to sell for cheap, simply because it's NOT my primary (or secondary...or tertiary...etc) income. I do it for fun, so any $$$ is better than none.
From other hobbies I've had (high-end auto detailing...not just Jimbob's wash and wax), the true pros were not concerned at all about "fly by night" operations that charged less. Even if the product was as good as the professionals', it ended up being the pros with the longevity in the market.
I think there is plenty of room for both. "Pros" should offer more than just cheaper images. If someone charges less but still provides a quality product, that's their choice and the "pros" problem for being "destroyed".
.02
Canon 7D and some stuff that sticks on the end of it.
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John ThawleyRegistered UsersPosts: 5Beginner grinner
Quite the evolution in this thread...I'll bite on one of the things you mentioned: predatory pricing and destroying industries. My question is, with what you say about pricing:
Does any hobbyist that sells cheaper than a pro considered predatory and "destroying an industry"? I'm a hobbyist and would be happy to sell for cheap, simply because it's NOT my primary (or secondary...or tertiary...etc) income. I do it for fun, so any $$$ is better than none.
From other hobbies I've had (high-end auto detailing...not just Jimbob's wash and wax), the true pros were not concerned at all about "fly by night" operations that charged less. Even if the product was as good as the professionals', it ended up being the pros with the longevity in the market.
I think there is plenty of room for both. "Pros" should offer more than just cheaper images. If someone charges less but still provides a quality product, that's their choice and the "pros" problem for being "destroyed".
.02
I think if you're promoting galleries and hosting pages of images with digital downloads... and marketing as such, you're not a hobbyist.
Obviously, it's a blurred line... and, frankly, you're right. If you read my first post, I'm quite confident that the cream will rise to the top.
But, again.... how happy would you be (hobby or not) if I showed up in your office and/or workplace and told your boss to send you home, I'll be happy to do your work for pennies on the dollar he's paying you? You'd be pissed.... and I think you'd have a few more names for me that wouldn't include "hobbyist."
I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. Nor, at the end of the day, do I care. I show up at major events all over the country and at every one, there are a bunch of guys local to the area filling up the photo holes and shooting for free or nearly free. I'm fairly confident in my work... and for that matter the allegiance of my customers. They know what I do. They know I'll have the images they need... AND, equally as important, they know I'll be there.
By the same token, I don't shoot track days and I rarely shoot support races unless a contract is in place. But, to be honest, there was a day when a guy could make a very nice living shooting things like Koni Challenge, SPEED World Challenge... even Grand Am, etc. Unfortunately, those markets have been destroyed by guys shooting well below reasonable fees. And, believe me, "well below reasonable fees" is being kind. These guys are giving their work away.
Just my 2 cents worth after reading this. Your price is lower that 3 other photographers. How did you arrive at your pricing?
1. Though I don't do event photography, I would never let high res digital files out of my control without $$$. Once the cow is out of the barn it is hard to put back. Do you think selling a high res image once or selling multiple prints will make you the most money?
2. Do your prices reflect your costs? If you are selling your product you MUST act like a business because you are a business.
Are you insured? If a motorcycle comes off the track and hits you and you have to be hospitalized how are you going to pay for it? You day job insurance will not cover it! Your were making money therefore they would deny it and send it to workers comp. Do you pay workers comp? Medical insurances are really cracking down on this due to costs and they will sue you and possibly have you charged for insurance fraud.
Are you getting the proper releases signed? You take a picture of a rider, you sell the digital download. It ends up in an advertisement, you don't have a proper releases signed. Therefore you can get sued, can you recover these costs? Will a law suit cost you your house, car, motorcycle, etc?
Are you paying taxes? Do you have a business license? As states are getting hard up for money in the recession they are sending out people to events like this just to look for proper licensing. Fines are usually a much more than the cost of the license.
3. How much is your time worth? How much time do you have in each final image? You spend 8-10 hours ate the track, probably as many if not more at the computer post-processing and uploading. How much time do you spend with your customers after the event? Minimum wage is $7.25/hour in Missouri. Are you making minimum wage?
4. How much is your overhead? How much did your camera cost? How soon will it need replaced? How will you pay to replace it? Do you need more storage space for your photos, how much does it cost to store each photo? How do you pay for software and upgrades? How do you pay for the wear and tear on your vehicle driving to the track? How much are your business cards? Etc.
5. How much profit? Do you have a mortgage or rent to pay? What about utility bills? A wife or kids to feed and clothe?
So to your original questions about why their pricing is higher. The pros have probably all considered this and price their products accordingly.
Yes the prices may seem to high to you, but the pros probably think they are too low.
You must price not only according to what someone will buy but also you must consider what your costs are. If your costs are more than the customer can pay, walk away, you will lose money. There are more to costs than just the print price or charging what is fair. Above all else make sure you cover your butt. As times are hard governments are looking for all available sources of income. They are auditing more, and they are out looking to make sure people are doing business their way so they get paid.
Again just my 2 cents worth after spending 6 months researching, talking to a lawyer, accountant and my most trusted adviser my wife before deciding to proceed with this as a business.
You are also dead wrong about hurting my business for the future! I am establishing myself and people are liking it. I will soon raise prices..... but slowly. They may not like it BUT they aren't going anywhere else!
I found this the most interesting comment buried in this thread. You admit that your plan is to establish yourself with low prices. This is your effort to drive out your higher priced competition. Your ultimate goal is to raise your prices on your "friends" once they can't go anywhere else.
It will be interesting to hear your comments once you get undercut by some newbie with a shiny new camera in a year.
Just my 2 cents worth after reading this. Your price is lower that 3 other photographers. How did you arrive at your pricing?
(lots of worthwhile stuff)
Yes the prices may seem to high to you, but the pros probably think they are too low.
You must price not only according to what someone will buy but also you must consider what your costs are. If your costs are more than the customer can pay, walk away, you will lose money. There are more to costs than just the print price or charging what is fair. Above all else make sure you cover your butt. As times are hard governments are looking for all available sources of income. They are auditing more, and they are out looking to make sure people are doing business their way so they get paid.
Again just my 2 cents worth after spending 6 months researching, talking to a lawyer, accountant and my most trusted adviser my wife before deciding to proceed with this as a business.
Hope this helps.
Unfortunately Chris, the OP has already decided that those of us who have mentioned those facts have no clue about what we are talking about and that we are a bunch of envious overpriced photographers who are out to rip people off. Hopefully other folks who are thinking of charging money for their work will learn something from this thread about what they need to think about before starting a business.
Wow, this was a nice witch hunt.
A guy asks a very simple question, and a group of people climb all over him.
The question was why some of us charge a lot for downloads.
Is there something hard to understand about this?
Is there some reason to jump all over somebody for darning to ask such a question?
Geez, get over yourselves.
If you were that friggin great of photographers, you wouldn't be here handing out advice for free.
Your posts complaining about what the OP charges proves that point.
And this same old crap about pots and pans. The pots and pans are just the data cards.
You fill them on the stove, or in the oven, and empty them onto a plate.
The stove, oven, ingredients, (camera, lenses, subject) will make the dish.
And if anyone really thinks that you can't learn photography faster now with digital cameras,
than the Masters, (or anyone else) could with film, I'll take a drink of whatever your having.
And one last thing, I've offered this before, and have yet to have anyone take me up on it.
I have an old Fuji MX-700 camera that I will trade you for all your DSLR equipment.
After all, any old pots and pans will do.
Later.
Unfortunately there are some that think their way is the only way and they are always right. Anyone that has a differing opinion is treated with sarcasm and insults, veiled or direct. It would be hilarious if their own Holier than thou accusations didn't apply to themselves more than they apply to anyone else if it wasn't so pathetic.
And you are of course right, if these shooters were anywhere near as good and knowledgeable as they make out here, they wouldn't be hanging around or be remotely interested in these slanging matches.
Fortunately there are some very gun photographers here that may participate infrequently ( due to the fact they verifiably run very busy and successful businesses) but their advise and suggestions are Gold. It is interesting to note their replys are distinctly lacking in the attitude and smugness that is such an outstanding trait of the people that want to put themselves on a pedestal.
Fortunately, the value of the opinions and advise of the people not worth listening to is very obvious.
It is interesting to note their replys are distinctly lacking in the attitude and smugness that is such an outstanding trait of the people that want to put themselves on a pedestal.
A little different to you, I don't offer downloads at all but I do sell original files on cd at events. They are a pretty good seller and at least half my sales are disks.
I price the images from $5 to $10 ea depending on the qty purchased. I market them as a volume kind of deal as a way of the clients getting multiple images at a more affordable price than prints which I only offer one size in starting at $30.
I think the trick is to find the sweet spot for pricing your work. No matter where you put yourself you will be balancing the trade off between $$ earnt and sales made. I go for the Max $$ earnt and don't really care about volume.
I think in relation to your question the answer can be found right here in this thread on else where on the forum. People ask all the time about pricing simple jobs and there is advise from the high and mighty about what copyright is worth and pricing in the cost of everything from equipment to the amount of shoe leather used on the job to come up with totally impractical and inappropriate pricing that no one would ever get in the real world from the target client.
It seems to me that this mentality would follow on to the way people price their own work and in so doing you see exactly what you are talking about.
I love it when I find this sort of thing, it allows me to charge a worthwhile price for my work and still be seen as great value by my clients and increases the appreciation for what I'm doing.
I think a lot of people do overprice their work as much as many people undervalue it.
I like to experiment and ask my customers lots of questions to find the right price point. About a month ago I introduced some new products to my offerings and priced them at what I think is a premium and above our other products.
They have sold really well and the customers love them. They recognize the price difference and the similarity to our other offerings but value the difference in the product and are prepared to pay for it. In contrast, I have heard several reports of a competitor that recently upped their prices and people have taken a very dim view of it because it's a significant increase with no difference or added value in the product. They have also made what I think is a mistake of going way above the almost universal level everyone else in the area charges and in my ( and the people I have spoken to's) opinion, their work certainly is probably lacking rather than being outstanding enough to justify being so much more exy than everyone else.
Because the competitors are all essential the same large group and see different shooters at different events, they are price aware and when one vendor is charging way more than everyone else with noting to justify it, it creates a resentment that absoloutley effects sales in a negative way.
I believe I am at the right level for my clients because going any higher is going to adversely what is in the till at the end of the day and that's all I'm worried about. I also think that for the little extra's I give that cost me nothing, I create a lot of good will and positive attitude amongst my clients and that's why I now have organizers ringing me to see if I will cover events in prefrance to o9ther competitors that they will take as second choice.
From the little information I have been able to get, I also believe I am making far more money than other operators.
I don't care what I sell or how many, to me it's about getting the max $$ for my time and effort.
I think some people do put a false value on their work through ego and also lack of fundamental business knowledge. I think I always try to go to the high side but keep it realistic. Those that don't understand business ( and worse still, would argue that they in fact do!) that also have a head full of "Charge to recoup the cost of washing the car you drive to the job" stand a good chance of overpricing themselves out of business and will naturally blame everything else but their own errors.
MMMmmmm.... well, I appreciate you agreeing with my comments, but I think perhaps you missed the point, $3 downloads aren't a market at all. In fact, you're destroying the market. The guy you mention that had the "best work you've ever seen" wasn't unsuccessful because of his work, it was because others have come into the space and are giving their work away. (IMO $3 is giving your work away.)
If you build crappy cheap houses in a neighborhood and don't provide services that maintain the quality of life, that neighborhood will become rundown and ultimately be abandoned. If you build a shopping center populate it with marginal businesses with improper funding and no advertising budget, they'll ultimately disappear into the night and we'll have another vacant rundown strip center.
You have BUILD business. You have to grow business and do it in a way that will sustain itself based on good value, good service and fair pricing. You should run your business with pride and present your products, service and work with pride. IMHO.
Sorry... and this isn't a personal attack on you... \
Destroying a market using predatory pricing and business practices doesn't do your craft, business or the business community any good. It is an attitude of "it works for me, screw everyone else." In the end, you will screw everyone else and yourself. Trust me, you can't sustain your business on $3 downloads.
Consider this (I've already figured out you don't do this for a living... but) if you want to earn an annual income of $50,000 per year based on your pricing, you'd need to sell approximately 15,000 images... that's only allowing about $5000 for annual expenses. Are you insured? Do you upgrade your equipment? Do you sleep in a hotel, eat, fill your car with gas?
So, I think you're being unfair criticizing the guy who shot "best work you've ever seen"....
How do you defend that to a customer? Is there personal pride in a sales pitch of "mine may not be as good but its a hell of a lot cheaper?" Sorry... I have more personal pride than that.
And, please don't construe this as some sort of arrogance that some photographers just want to charge as much as they can get away with. If someones work is good and there's a demand, they have every right to charge what the market will bear.
But to "dump" your work at predatory pricing, destroys an industry and the market.
I don't know what you do for a living, but I think if you had a retail store that sold a product of good value that you were selling at a fair price and I came along with a van and parked in front of your door selling something that "looked" the same but cost 5% of the price, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
Again, not an attack on you, but I really think you should reconsider your view on the issue.
Dump my work at predatory pricing??? You are accusing me of destroying an industry? !!!! I offer $3 LOW RES DOWNLOADS along with $10-$20 Hi Res versions ! I ALSO sell $3 FACEBOOK PICS if the customer wants them!!! What do YOU charge for 1mp pics???? Please.. do share!!???? I'd love to hear it! Merc(and you) bash me for prices but yet he charges $10 for the same hi res version that I do!!! You gonna bash his prices too? Well, are ya? You wouldn't dare since he is in the same club. Would ya? It is HILARIOUS that you try to pass it off that I sell all my images at $3. FAIL!!!!!!!!!! :lol4
I just layed out my prices for all to see and all you can come back with is BS about my $3 low quality bargain images and predatory pricing??? Wow. Look at Merc's pricing and then mine. Get back to me after you bash him for "predatory pricing" since he is cheaper than me in some cases. This thread isn't even about someone's pricing structure but here you guys are bashing away!!!! It started a couple posts in.... simply because people can't understand what they are reading.... or are worried about the free market.
Also, I wasn't shooting a few years ago when the pro priced himself out of the events. He was the ONLY photographer at the time!!! NO ONE COULD AFFORD HIM! What the heck do YOU know about it anyway? No one had enough money to buy his product... therefore he didn't make any money! I clearly stated that NO ONE did that him but himself. Go back and reread!!!! HEre you are basically accusing me and people like me of being at fault with predatory pricing. It really is almost unbelievable how pathetic it is. For being "pros" some of you clearly don't understand marketing or sales and I surely would never take your advice after reading the BS some of you just typed. You can't even focus, stay the point, and your reading comprehension is horrible!
If you guys can't stay the point or have a clue.... don't bother posting. It isn't about someone's pricing, recouping business costs, or price fixing. Make another thread if you want to talk about unrelated subjects such as pricing structure or price fixing. It's a new age and competition is fierce. Competition is GREAT in the FREE MARKET. I love it! Lots of the "old"guys are just letting out their frustration in my thread. How "professional" of them. You guys sell at whatever prices you want and I'll do the same. Have a meeting with your mates.... set some prices. I DON'T CARE. Do what YOU gotta do. I'll do what I gotta do to sell images..... and I'll do it..... with the customer in mind. Sound familiar? That's what some were preaching before they did a 180.
On a closing note.....it is extremely ignorant to assume I don't understand marketing and business. The simple fact that some of you keep talking about $3 images just shows you are here to argue and spin things and make it appear a certain way. Let me be clear AGAIN since no one seems to understand. My hi Res images are $10-$20... NOT $3. You wanna buy one? Maybe your child does but he only has $3 from his allowance. That's ok.... I have something for him as well since he can't afford my Hi Res images. Pretty cool how that works, huh? THAT is good business. Everyone goes home with something.... except the people who price themselves out of a sale that is! Or the ones who price fix and then act like that is the moral thing to do for the "community". Get real!!! You gotta cheat to make money? What about your quality work selling itself? Price fixing is shady and illegal in some cases! I want no part of THAT "community". That is a dying breed. I'd be grumpy too if I were part of that old school marketing! I offer FAIR pricing to my customers..... PERIOD. FAIR PRICING. FAIR PRICING. FAIR PRICING. FAIR PRICING. Something wrong with FAIR PRICING? According to some of you there is! I don't sell cheap or use "predatory pricing" like you WANT TO make it out to be. Guess what I use? FAIR PRICING!!!!! Fair for the customer and fair for my business! It's called marketing and I OBVIOUSLY don't need any of you to tell me how to run my side business. Besides, we all know you are too busy selling over priced images to have any free time for this. I have seen SOME of the so called pros work on here and some of it is really not any better than alot of newbies who are learning how to use their DSLR and are charging FAIR PRICES. It's a wonderful thing but of course the price fixers will cry all day and night about competition. It is CLEARLY showing in this thread. Anyway, this is my last post in this thread. Only a small handful of guys were competent enough to follow along and stay on point. The rest just wanted to have fun, join a witchhunt while COMPLETELY changing the subject, some wanted to spread their golden wings although ignorantly... and some just had to let out frustrations because they have competition these days. To them and anyone else wanting to join the fun...I say ... thanks for crapping on a very simple question. Have fun in here, attackers! You'll have to find someone else to bash, accuse of destroying an industry, or call arrogant because they stand up to your ulterior, clueless, and manipulating motives. I asked one simple question but only a few good people were smart enough to field or understand it it. How pathetic!
A little different to you, I don't offer downloads at all but I do sell original files on cd at events. They are a pretty good seller and at least half my sales are disks.
I price the images from $5 to $10 ea depending on the qty purchased. I market them as a volume kind of deal as a way of the clients getting multiple images at a more affordable price than prints which I only offer one size in starting at $30.
I think the trick is to find the sweet spot for pricing your work. No matter where you put yourself you will be balancing the trade off between $$ earnt and sales made. I go for the Max $$ earnt and don't really care about volume.
I think in relation to your question the answer can be found right here in this thread on else where on the forum. People ask all the time about pricing simple jobs and there is advise from the high and mighty about what copyright is worth and pricing in the cost of everything from equipment to the amount of shoe leather used on the job to come up with totally impractical and inappropriate pricing that no one would ever get in the real world from the target client.
It seems to me that this mentality would follow on to the way people price their own work and in so doing you see exactly what you are talking about.
I love it when I find this sort of thing, it allows me to charge a worthwhile price for my work and still be seen as great value by my clients and increases the appreciation for what I'm doing.
I think a lot of people do overprice their work as much as many people undervalue it.
I like to experiment and ask my customers lots of questions to find the right price point. About a month ago I introduced some new products to my offerings and priced them at what I think is a premium and above our other products.
They have sold really well and the customers love them. They recognize the price difference and the similarity to our other offerings but value the difference in the product and are prepared to pay for it. In contrast, I have heard several reports of a competitor that recently upped their prices and people have taken a very dim view of it because it's a significant increase with no difference or added value in the product. They have also made what I think is a mistake of going way above the almost universal level everyone else in the area charges and in my ( and the people I have spoken to's) opinion, their work certainly is probably lacking rather than being outstanding enough to justify being so much more exy than everyone else.
Because the competitors are all essential the same large group and see different shooters at different events, they are price aware and when one vendor is charging way more than everyone else with noting to justify it, it creates a resentment that absoloutley effects sales in a negative way.
I believe I am at the right level for my clients because going any higher is going to adversely what is in the till at the end of the day and that's all I'm worried about. I also think that for the little extra's I give that cost me nothing, I create a lot of good will and positive attitude amongst my clients and that's why I now have organizers ringing me to see if I will cover events in prefrance to o9ther competitors that they will take as second choice.
From the little information I have been able to get, I also believe I am making far more money than other operators.
I don't care what I sell or how many, to me it's about getting the max $$ for my time and effort.
I think some people do put a false value on their work through ego and also lack of fundamental business knowledge. I think I always try to go to the high side but keep it realistic. Those that don't understand business ( and worse still, would argue that they in fact do!) that also have a head full of "Charge to recoup the cost of washing the car you drive to the job" stand a good chance of overpricing themselves out of business and will naturally blame everything else but their own errors.
Sorry, but I had to make one last post. Everyone take note...... Glort is a smart man. He is selling images instead of attending price fixing meetings!!
Thanks for the post, Glort. I agree with your business model and you and I will do well because of it. Others, who do not operate like this will not make much money. Not in this day and age where anyone can get a DSLR and learn how to use it much easier than the days of old. It is a different market and some people just do NOT want to face it. They don't want to fight fair. Maybe it's because they really aren't even that good anymore? If they are selling images at whatever price they set.... more power to them. I just know what my customers will pay and won't pay. I choose to sell images. Thanks again, Glort. Very well written post... unlike mine above.
PS I also sell most of my images on CD's and give volume discounts. It's the right thing to do! Smug pricing got brought into this simply because of my original question about downloads. The majority of my sales are in person or snail mail from my home.
I found this the most interesting comment buried in this thread. You admit that your plan is to establish yourself with low prices. This is your effort to drive out your higher priced competition. Your ultimate goal is to raise your prices on your "friends" once they can't go anywhere else.
It will be interesting to hear your comments once you get undercut by some newbie with a shiny new camera in a year.
No, it's an effort to get my work out there. You are just assuming it's to drive out people with predatory pricing... aren't you????? Yes... of course you are! Too bad my prices are fair and not predatory. My goal WILL be to raise prices. Ever heard of inflation? It's quite normal in business. I will raise slowly but keep them fair. If people stop buying... I'll know I have gone too far. Thanks for playing and being just another ASSumer. I'm not concerned about ANYONE but myself unlike you and some others. :bwg I could care less!! My prices and work will keep my customers and I'm not worried like.........
I certainly wasn't attacking your pricing (I didn't even look at it until you mentioned it in the thread); what I tried to do was explain a possible reason why the individual you mentioned was charging the prices he was. I used the examples of killboy and rt 129 as sites of where inexpensive download prices are part of a business model. I also mentioned the fact that both sites are very high volume and are based in an inexpensive area and so can sustain that kind of business model. If you are thinking of doing photography as a business (and from what you say on your site, you are), you really need to think of the business aspects or else you can dig yourself into a hole; the not-fun stuff such as making sure your taxes are in line (as someone else mentioned earlier, the budget crunches in a lot of states are making them look a lot harder at small businesses, including flea markets, farmers markets and websites; I don't know how it is in your state but where I'm at, any time I hand a client a product, I HAVE to collect sales tax on it ... if you are not doing so and are supposed to, state departments of taxation get very nasty and it could cost you a bit more than you'd expect), having insurance, both liability and equipment (your home owner's insurance WILL NOT COVER YOUR EQUIPMENT if something should happen to it since you are using it in a business and since you are charging money for images, the insurance company will decide that it is a business). If you are selling enough images on a weekend to cover those expenses, GREAT! If you are not, then you just have a very expensive hobby.
Why did I bother answering the question in the first place? To be honest, to try to help someone from making some of the same mistakes I did in regards to the business aspects. Most photographers suck at being business people; most of what I know about running a business, I learned from talking and listening to business owners in other professions.
Most photographers suck at being business people; most of what I know about running a business, I learned from talking and listening to business owners in other professions.
Couldn't agree more!
I would say that the numerous times I have raised the topic in various discussions there is a virtual reluctance and resistance to learning about business with many photographers and they will come up with all manner of excuse to justify continuing their ignorance.
The bottom line is, the real successful people in any industry are not the ones that are focused on the industry or their product or service itself, they are focused on making money from it.
The general consensus seems to be that you need to have the right gear ( IE, things to make other shooters jealous or use as a crutch to establish status on forums) and take pretty pictures to be successful.
If that's what people want to believe, I have come to realise that it's not in my best interests to change their minds so I'm happy for them to keep thinking the way they do.
If they think they are worth more than the clients do and think studying business is not important to them, they may or may not eventually learn the hard way.
I'm sure a lot of business related problems shooters have are blamed on onther things completely unrelated by their lack of business education and would be easily overcome if they had the business knowledge they should.
Understanding business is fundamental to any industry or profession and gives you good insight to know how to set, measure and monitor your pricing.
The fact is, sometimes you can't get what you need to cover all your extended costs. The market simply won't bear that.
You can then either decide to stick to your guns and refuse to get less than you calculate your worth or you can think that making $xx a day is better than sitting on my backside and still having to cover the fixed costs that will be there anyway. Myself, I'm not in a position to be proud or arrogant so I go out and work hard and may only make $300 for a days work sometimes but to me that's money I can spend to spoil my kids or wife or one less bill to worry about.
If I stuck to my high horse and went along with forum mentality of making sure everything down to the depreciation of my shoe leather was covered, then in many markets I would come home with nothing at all.
I may not make the $XX I calculate I need to give me $X profit per year or whatever hourly rate but sometimes just covering the fixed costs is as much as you can ask for and allows you to take off more cream later on.
I am always interested in how other business do things and ready to take on or use different ideas to set myself apart in my industry. Business is business and there are many professions that are tougher than ours and have to up the ante with their strategies.
Years ago when I wanted to build a website, I looked on the net and found that all the cutting edge stuff was done by the industry that was far and away the biggest earner on the web.... the Porn industry.
I looked at lots of porn masters sites and what they were doing to get traffic and business in their ultra competitive market and just adapted the ideas and strategies that would work in my market.
For more than 10 years my site listing has always been in the top 3-5 of any search engine and never off the first page even when I have had my host crash and stuff things up. I have had lots of people scoff at me studying porn site marketing but at the end of the day, my site is where I want it to be and ahead of the people that think the way I got it there and whom I learned from is amusing.
It's easy to overprice yourself out of work just the same as under price yourself and the more you know about business, the less likley that is to happen and the more profitable opportunities you will find open up to you.
There isn't much new under the sun these days and the wheel has long been invented. These days I don't go round trying to re-invent it, when my bike needs to go faster or overcome an obstacle, I just go find a wheel that someone else has made that will fit my bike and use that design to get things rolling again.
There are plenty of famous examples of bad business decisions and I don't believe the answer is as simple as getting someone to advise you on the "best way" to run your business. Even if you're not good at the business side, at some level you need to understand enough to know the difference between good and bad advice...
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Couldn't agree more!
I would say that the numerous times I have raised the topic in various discussions there is a virtual reluctance and resistance to learning about business with many photographers and they will come up with all manner of excuse to justify continuing their ignorance.
(stuff)
I'm sure a lot of business related problems shooters have are blamed on onther things completely unrelated by their lack of business education and would be easily overcome if they had the business knowledge they should.
Understanding business is fundamental to any industry or profession and gives you good insight to know how to set, measure and monitor your pricing.
The fact is, sometimes you can't get what you need to cover all your extended costs. The market simply won't bear that.
You can then either decide to stick to your guns and refuse to get less than you calculate your worth or you can think that making $xx a day is better than sitting on my backside and still having to cover the fixed costs that will be there anyway. Myself, I'm not in a position to be proud or arrogant so I go out and work hard and may only make $300 for a days work sometimes but to me that's money I can spend to spoil my kids or wife or one less bill to worry about.
If I stuck to my high horse and went along with forum mentality of making sure everything down to the depreciation of my shoe leather was covered, then in many markets I would come home with nothing at all.
I may not make the $XX I calculate I need to give me $X profit per year or whatever hourly rate but sometimes just covering the fixed costs is as much as you can ask for and allows you to take off more cream later on.
(more stuff)
That's why I mentioned things such as insurance; the fixed costs of running a business do need to be covered by what revenue is coming in. This is the non-glamorous, non-cool stuff that most people on photography forums ignore but if you are going to collect money from someone for your photography work, you are a business and should be thinking of these things. How many are thinking of what are they going to do if the couple who's wedding they photographed decide that they hate the pictures and/or certain things weren't photographed and now have decided to sue the photographer over this?
BTW, photographers aren't the only people bitching about about newcomers who come in and undercut the established people; just ask any established landscaper or carpenter about the guys who come in with a truck and a mower or saw/hammer.
I asked one simple question but only a few good people were smart enough to field or understand it it. How pathetic!
Try to calm down, that goes for everyone. Have respect for each other - OP and responders alike. When you post on the internet, you're going to get lots of differing opinions. It's up to you to filter them all and decide what you want. Blustering (by OP and responders) is is just "noise" and we don't like it or want it.
Comments
Hi Sam. Thanks for the comments on the site.
I know it's very unorganized, but I'm hoping with the new smart galleries that Smugmug has, I can make it a bit better.
I could do a "no right click or watermark" but really, what's the point?
People with watermarks way at the bottom of their shots can be easily cropped off, and if you put a
huge "Proof" across it, it doesn't play well in forums like this one.
If I can't right click and show my own shots, why have the site?
If you look at the 4th post in this thread, you will see that I did answer the OP's question, without
ever questioning his ethics or business practices.
You use Marc as an example, so I will also.
I have met Marc on a few different Smugmug shootouts.
He, Dave Porter, and Andy are without a doubt some of the best photographers I've shot with.
Marc is an "Artist in Residence" here. He has made many business deals here by advertising his workshops on this site. (on every page it's the top right panel)
Saying that he gives his opinions freely may be a bit of a stretch.
Not knowing who the OP is shooting against, his shots may be better.
I believe he said that he used to race, I do believe, at least in the short run, he would have an
advantage over someone like me taking shots there.
I may know the right aperture, he knows when a rider is in trouble, or when they'll start their turn, etc.
I know pros have a lot of cash tied up in their equipment. So do hobbyists.
I have 5DMKII, 7D, 300 f2.8. and lets just say a lot more stuff, and I've never made a dime from taking photos.
I've won a couple of contests, but no cash. (OK, one was just as good as cash, but more like a trade)
I do know a few photographers that have gone the way of selling stock photos. I hear they do well with it,
and don't have to advertise or market anything. Just cash the checks every month.
Of course, these are people who do this as a supplement to their income, not the main source of it.
As for OP being young and sure of himself, is there a better way to go into business?
Should he print it out and have others read it, I hope the first question asked by said reader would be,
"Why didn't these people answer your question?)
Have a good one.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
That's exactly what its about.
Why do 100 weddings for $20 each, when you can do 1 wedding for $2000.
Sure, the guy giving away his services for next to nothing is going to look like he's doing well... but he's not.
Keep selling yourself short, all you're doing is giving yourself the reputation as "the cheap guy'. Meanwhile, the other shooters are selling their services at what they believe its worth.
We both hit the same market, amatuer track day racing. Neither of us are doing big-budget series or selling commercially to sponsors or profit-making racing teams. Roger Penske is not a possible client of mine.
I'm not paying the mortgage doing this a few times a year. I don't "need" to charge what I do. I could "afford" to do this and charge next to nothing for it. But I don't. Gotta be a reason for it. Its not because I'm the old pro with archaic ideas on how this business should be run that you seem to think I am.
But I am going to be really interested in how you feel about your pricing and your competitor's pricing after you've done this for a year. Or if you start hitting tracks where you don't know all the riders already. You've just started out. You have some very strong opinions for someone with very limited time doing this.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Your right! I missed it. But unfortunately, if say you put a price up of $10,000.00 per image file, but are not Annie Leibovitz, or have any track record of selling at this rate, I don't believe the courts will even consider this as a starting point. Although this could be a reason, if the facts, circumstances are not in keeping with the real world, you have a non acceptable non functional argument.
Sam
Uh... fellas, why not stick to photography? Let the lawyers do the lawyer stuff.
Dave's attempt at establishing some sort of "value" just in case someone steals an image off the web is a moot point right out of the box.
In a criminal case, he'd need the image registered with the copyright office. In a civil suit he would need to produce documentation showing sales of equal or similar value.
Selling 4x6 prints for .22 cents kind of flies in the face of any sort of defense.
I'd be more concerned with a judge throwing me in jail for contempt... wasting the court's time.
Meanwhile, I really feel you guys are going around this argument to no end.
Establish your business plan based on the time and expenses incurred to produce that product, factor in your talent and expertise value, then assess what you feel the market will bear.... set your price. This is far more important than a "competitor's" price.... unless it doesn't work. If you're not making sales and losing money, perhaps it's time to choose another career or assess the value you've applied to your talent and expertise.
But your formula has to work for YOU and your customers.
JT
Good points John, but it's so much fun....sigh...:D
Sam
Exhausting reading through all this forum-muck. Lol
If you have something to add to the OP's question that answers the question or contributes to something someone already said; great. Add it. Otherwise, let's all move on.
Thanks,
Ian
That's what I'm thinking too! I guess some people will be willing if the customer bites at a high price.
Thanks for the post, Davey!! I do appreciate your support and people COMPLETELY missed the point from the start. I tried to explain.... but it was too late. They wanted to take it somewhere else and somewhat succeeded. Yay for them.
Look, everyone. This was not suppose to be a debate about quality or someone's prices in general. It was about WHY do people price digital downloads so high that no one can afford them. I have ALWAYS suspected it was to sell prints.
I agree with the statement that if you don't want to sell copyrights or are so worried about it... don't offer the original download at all! But I guess if someone is willing to pay, huh?
Merc, you clearly just agreed("EXACTLY", right?) that a DSLR makes things easier and that's all I was saying. You wanted to(AGAIN) twist, turn, and spin something. A DSLR is just a tool that makes it easier. That does NOT mean anyone can pick one up and shoot pro quality photos. Simply being digital makes things easier. Spin THAT any way you want.... but you'll still be wrong.
Anyway, I appreciate all the "good" posts in this thread. I didn't appreciate the "witch hunt" or forcing me to sound "arrogant" or be the bad guy just because some readers can't follow or understand a very clear post. People should slow down and actually absorb what they are reading before they rush to something else all together. I asked a VERY specific question and looked what happened?? It got turned into something completely different than what was intended. It wasn't about someone's whole price structure or why it is that way. I am WELL AWARE that a business needs to recoup costs. My question was about one very specific thing(original downloads) and I'm not sure how I could have been more clear in my first post.
Also, to Sam.... I price my photos appropriately to what my customers can afford... PERIOD.... therefore they buy. Ones that have ridiculous pricing are NOT selling downloads at current pricing.
I don't put a super high price tag on photos to build false value or a reputation as being a good photographer. My prices are fair and my customers are ever grateful for that. Some people have the whole argument that you can't sell twice as much for half price or whatever. They are also missing the point. The point is.... you can't sell something if customers can't afford it. PERIOD! It's pretty simple really..... as were all of my points and questions. Arrogance was not the problem in this thread. The real problem was reading comprehension.
Yay for you!!! I knew from the get go what you were trying to do... hence the "so called" arrogance that you clearly deserved! Hope you had fun. Way to go!
EXCELLENT post, John!!! I agree 100% with you. Some people just have a hard time grasping the last sentence.
Just to reiterate something for everyone that I posted earlier and it was undoubtedly overlooked or ignored but....... we had a PRO PHOTOGRAPHER at one of our events. This guy did top notch work all the way. He was awesome and he produced some of the finest images ever taken at our events. The problem was... he priced everything with only him and recouping costs in mind. He forgot that people wouldn't be able to afford his images... therefore he didn't sell much and priced himself right out of our events. I guarantee that he actually lost money!!!! Some pricing structure, huh? Well at least he thinks his work is good!
Let's not forget the customer and the recession, everyone.
I sell downloads for $3, $7, $10, $15, and $20. Of course... being the spin master that you are..... you use the $3 figure.
But, as usual, the whole point was missed. It wasn't about someone's pricing structure or bashing someone's prices. The whole point was about someone pricing themselves out of a particular sale.
MMMmmmm.... well, I appreciate you agreeing with my comments, but I think perhaps you missed the point, $3 downloads aren't a market at all. In fact, you're destroying the market. The guy you mention that had the "best work you've ever seen" wasn't unsuccessful because of his work, it was because others have come into the space and are giving their work away. (IMO $3 is giving your work away.)
If you build crappy cheap houses in a neighborhood and don't provide services that maintain the quality of life, that neighborhood will become rundown and ultimately be abandoned. If you build a shopping center populate it with marginal businesses with improper funding and no advertising budget, they'll ultimately disappear into the night and we'll have another vacant rundown strip center.
You have BUILD business. You have to grow business and do it in a way that will sustain itself based on good value, good service and fair pricing. You should run your business with pride and present your products, service and work with pride. IMHO.
Sorry... and this isn't a personal attack on you... \
Destroying a market using predatory pricing and business practices doesn't do your craft, business or the business community any good. It is an attitude of "it works for me, screw everyone else." In the end, you will screw everyone else and yourself. Trust me, you can't sustain your business on $3 downloads.
Consider this (I've already figured out you don't do this for a living... but) if you want to earn an annual income of $50,000 per year based on your pricing, you'd need to sell approximately 15,000 images... that's only allowing about $5000 for annual expenses. Are you insured? Do you upgrade your equipment? Do you sleep in a hotel, eat, fill your car with gas?
So, I think you're being unfair criticizing the guy who shot "best work you've ever seen"....
How do you defend that to a customer? Is there personal pride in a sales pitch of "mine may not be as good but its a hell of a lot cheaper?" Sorry... I have more personal pride than that.
And, please don't construe this as some sort of arrogance that some photographers just want to charge as much as they can get away with. If someones work is good and there's a demand, they have every right to charge what the market will bear.
But to "dump" your work at predatory pricing, destroys an industry and the market.
I don't know what you do for a living, but I think if you had a retail store that sold a product of good value that you were selling at a fair price and I came along with a van and parked in front of your door selling something that "looked" the same but cost 5% of the price, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
Again, not an attack on you, but I really think you should reconsider your view on the issue.
Quite the evolution in this thread...I'll bite on one of the things you mentioned: predatory pricing and destroying industries. My question is, with what you say about pricing:
Does any hobbyist that sells cheaper than a pro considered predatory and "destroying an industry"? I'm a hobbyist and would be happy to sell for cheap, simply because it's NOT my primary (or secondary...or tertiary...etc) income. I do it for fun, so any $$$ is better than none.
From other hobbies I've had (high-end auto detailing...not just Jimbob's wash and wax), the true pros were not concerned at all about "fly by night" operations that charged less. Even if the product was as good as the professionals', it ended up being the pros with the longevity in the market.
I think there is plenty of room for both. "Pros" should offer more than just cheaper images. If someone charges less but still provides a quality product, that's their choice and the "pros" problem for being "destroyed".
.02
I think if you're promoting galleries and hosting pages of images with digital downloads... and marketing as such, you're not a hobbyist.
Obviously, it's a blurred line... and, frankly, you're right. If you read my first post, I'm quite confident that the cream will rise to the top.
But, again.... how happy would you be (hobby or not) if I showed up in your office and/or workplace and told your boss to send you home, I'll be happy to do your work for pennies on the dollar he's paying you? You'd be pissed.... and I think you'd have a few more names for me that wouldn't include "hobbyist."
I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. Nor, at the end of the day, do I care. I show up at major events all over the country and at every one, there are a bunch of guys local to the area filling up the photo holes and shooting for free or nearly free. I'm fairly confident in my work... and for that matter the allegiance of my customers. They know what I do. They know I'll have the images they need... AND, equally as important, they know I'll be there.
By the same token, I don't shoot track days and I rarely shoot support races unless a contract is in place. But, to be honest, there was a day when a guy could make a very nice living shooting things like Koni Challenge, SPEED World Challenge... even Grand Am, etc. Unfortunately, those markets have been destroyed by guys shooting well below reasonable fees. And, believe me, "well below reasonable fees" is being kind. These guys are giving their work away.
JT
1. Though I don't do event photography, I would never let high res digital files out of my control without $$$. Once the cow is out of the barn it is hard to put back. Do you think selling a high res image once or selling multiple prints will make you the most money?
2. Do your prices reflect your costs? If you are selling your product you MUST act like a business because you are a business.
Are you insured? If a motorcycle comes off the track and hits you and you have to be hospitalized how are you going to pay for it? You day job insurance will not cover it! Your were making money therefore they would deny it and send it to workers comp. Do you pay workers comp? Medical insurances are really cracking down on this due to costs and they will sue you and possibly have you charged for insurance fraud.
Are you getting the proper releases signed? You take a picture of a rider, you sell the digital download. It ends up in an advertisement, you don't have a proper releases signed. Therefore you can get sued, can you recover these costs? Will a law suit cost you your house, car, motorcycle, etc?
Are you paying taxes? Do you have a business license? As states are getting hard up for money in the recession they are sending out people to events like this just to look for proper licensing. Fines are usually a much more than the cost of the license.
3. How much is your time worth? How much time do you have in each final image? You spend 8-10 hours ate the track, probably as many if not more at the computer post-processing and uploading. How much time do you spend with your customers after the event? Minimum wage is $7.25/hour in Missouri. Are you making minimum wage?
4. How much is your overhead? How much did your camera cost? How soon will it need replaced? How will you pay to replace it? Do you need more storage space for your photos, how much does it cost to store each photo? How do you pay for software and upgrades? How do you pay for the wear and tear on your vehicle driving to the track? How much are your business cards? Etc.
5. How much profit? Do you have a mortgage or rent to pay? What about utility bills? A wife or kids to feed and clothe?
So to your original questions about why their pricing is higher. The pros have probably all considered this and price their products accordingly.
Yes the prices may seem to high to you, but the pros probably think they are too low.
You must price not only according to what someone will buy but also you must consider what your costs are. If your costs are more than the customer can pay, walk away, you will lose money. There are more to costs than just the print price or charging what is fair. Above all else make sure you cover your butt. As times are hard governments are looking for all available sources of income. They are auditing more, and they are out looking to make sure people are doing business their way so they get paid.
Again just my 2 cents worth after spending 6 months researching, talking to a lawyer, accountant and my most trusted adviser my wife before deciding to proceed with this as a business.
Hope this helps.
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I found this the most interesting comment buried in this thread. You admit that your plan is to establish yourself with low prices. This is your effort to drive out your higher priced competition. Your ultimate goal is to raise your prices on your "friends" once they can't go anywhere else.
It will be interesting to hear your comments once you get undercut by some newbie with a shiny new camera in a year.
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
Unfortunately Chris, the OP has already decided that those of us who have mentioned those facts have no clue about what we are talking about and that we are a bunch of envious overpriced photographers who are out to rip people off. Hopefully other folks who are thinking of charging money for their work will learn something from this thread about what they need to think about before starting a business.
www.fastcatstudio.com
www.fastcatstudio.net - blog
Unfortunately there are some that think their way is the only way and they are always right. Anyone that has a differing opinion is treated with sarcasm and insults, veiled or direct. It would be hilarious if their own Holier than thou accusations didn't apply to themselves more than they apply to anyone else if it wasn't so pathetic.
And you are of course right, if these shooters were anywhere near as good and knowledgeable as they make out here, they wouldn't be hanging around or be remotely interested in these slanging matches.
Fortunately there are some very gun photographers here that may participate infrequently ( due to the fact they verifiably run very busy and successful businesses) but their advise and suggestions are Gold. It is interesting to note their replys are distinctly lacking in the attitude and smugness that is such an outstanding trait of the people that want to put themselves on a pedestal.
Fortunately, the value of the opinions and advise of the people not worth listening to is very obvious.
Hi! I'm Wally: website | blog | facebook | IG | scotchNsniff
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A little different to you, I don't offer downloads at all but I do sell original files on cd at events. They are a pretty good seller and at least half my sales are disks.
I price the images from $5 to $10 ea depending on the qty purchased. I market them as a volume kind of deal as a way of the clients getting multiple images at a more affordable price than prints which I only offer one size in starting at $30.
I think the trick is to find the sweet spot for pricing your work. No matter where you put yourself you will be balancing the trade off between $$ earnt and sales made. I go for the Max $$ earnt and don't really care about volume.
I think in relation to your question the answer can be found right here in this thread on else where on the forum. People ask all the time about pricing simple jobs and there is advise from the high and mighty about what copyright is worth and pricing in the cost of everything from equipment to the amount of shoe leather used on the job to come up with totally impractical and inappropriate pricing that no one would ever get in the real world from the target client.
It seems to me that this mentality would follow on to the way people price their own work and in so doing you see exactly what you are talking about.
I love it when I find this sort of thing, it allows me to charge a worthwhile price for my work and still be seen as great value by my clients and increases the appreciation for what I'm doing.
I think a lot of people do overprice their work as much as many people undervalue it.
I like to experiment and ask my customers lots of questions to find the right price point. About a month ago I introduced some new products to my offerings and priced them at what I think is a premium and above our other products.
They have sold really well and the customers love them. They recognize the price difference and the similarity to our other offerings but value the difference in the product and are prepared to pay for it. In contrast, I have heard several reports of a competitor that recently upped their prices and people have taken a very dim view of it because it's a significant increase with no difference or added value in the product. They have also made what I think is a mistake of going way above the almost universal level everyone else in the area charges and in my ( and the people I have spoken to's) opinion, their work certainly is probably lacking rather than being outstanding enough to justify being so much more exy than everyone else.
Because the competitors are all essential the same large group and see different shooters at different events, they are price aware and when one vendor is charging way more than everyone else with noting to justify it, it creates a resentment that absoloutley effects sales in a negative way.
I believe I am at the right level for my clients because going any higher is going to adversely what is in the till at the end of the day and that's all I'm worried about. I also think that for the little extra's I give that cost me nothing, I create a lot of good will and positive attitude amongst my clients and that's why I now have organizers ringing me to see if I will cover events in prefrance to o9ther competitors that they will take as second choice.
From the little information I have been able to get, I also believe I am making far more money than other operators.
I don't care what I sell or how many, to me it's about getting the max $$ for my time and effort.
I think some people do put a false value on their work through ego and also lack of fundamental business knowledge. I think I always try to go to the high side but keep it realistic. Those that don't understand business ( and worse still, would argue that they in fact do!) that also have a head full of "Charge to recoup the cost of washing the car you drive to the job" stand a good chance of overpricing themselves out of business and will naturally blame everything else but their own errors.
Dump my work at predatory pricing??? You are accusing me of destroying an industry?
I just layed out my prices for all to see and all you can come back with is BS about my $3 low quality bargain images and predatory pricing??? Wow. Look at Merc's pricing and then mine. Get back to me after you bash him for "predatory pricing" since he is cheaper than me in some cases.
Also, I wasn't shooting a few years ago when the pro priced himself out of the events. He was the ONLY photographer at the time!!! NO ONE COULD AFFORD HIM! What the heck do YOU know about it anyway? No one had enough money to buy his product... therefore he didn't make any money! I clearly stated that NO ONE did that him but himself. Go back and reread!!!! HEre you are basically accusing me and people like me of being at fault with predatory pricing. It really is almost unbelievable how pathetic it is. For being "pros" some of you clearly don't understand marketing or sales and I surely would never take your advice after reading the BS some of you just typed. You can't even focus, stay the point, and your reading comprehension is horrible!
If you guys can't stay the point or have a clue.... don't bother posting. It isn't about someone's pricing, recouping business costs, or price fixing. Make another thread if you want to talk about unrelated subjects such as pricing structure or price fixing. It's a new age and competition is fierce. Competition is GREAT in the FREE MARKET. I love it! Lots of the "old"guys are just letting out their frustration in my thread. How "professional" of them.
On a closing note.....it is extremely ignorant to assume I don't understand marketing and business. The simple fact that some of you keep talking about $3 images just shows you are here to argue and spin things and make it appear a certain way. Let me be clear AGAIN since no one seems to understand. My hi Res images are $10-$20... NOT $3. You wanna buy one? Maybe your child does but he only has $3 from his allowance. That's ok.... I have something for him as well since he can't afford my Hi Res images. Pretty cool how that works, huh? THAT is good business. Everyone goes home with something.... except the people who price themselves out of a sale that is!
Sorry, but I had to make one last post.
Thanks for the post, Glort. I agree with your business model and you and I will do well because of it. Others, who do not operate like this will not make much money. Not in this day and age where anyone can get a DSLR and learn how to use it much easier than the days of old. It is a different market and some people just do NOT want to face it. They don't want to fight fair. Maybe it's because they really aren't even that good anymore? If they are selling images at whatever price they set.... more power to them. I just know what my customers will pay and won't pay. I choose to sell images. Thanks again, Glort. Very well written post... unlike mine above.
PS I also sell most of my images on CD's and give volume discounts. It's the right thing to do! Smug pricing got brought into this simply because of my original question about downloads. The majority of my sales are in person or snail mail from my home.
No, it's an effort to get my work out there. You are just assuming it's to drive out people with predatory pricing... aren't you????? Yes... of course you are! Too bad my prices are fair and not predatory. My goal WILL be to raise prices. Ever heard of inflation? It's quite normal in business. I will raise slowly but keep them fair. If people stop buying... I'll know I have gone too far. Thanks for playing and being just another ASSumer. I'm not concerned about ANYONE but myself unlike you and some others. :bwg I could care less!! My prices and work will keep my customers and I'm not worried like.........
Why did I bother answering the question in the first place? To be honest, to try to help someone from making some of the same mistakes I did in regards to the business aspects. Most photographers suck at being business people; most of what I know about running a business, I learned from talking and listening to business owners in other professions.
www.fastcatstudio.com
www.fastcatstudio.net - blog
Couldn't agree more!
I would say that the numerous times I have raised the topic in various discussions there is a virtual reluctance and resistance to learning about business with many photographers and they will come up with all manner of excuse to justify continuing their ignorance.
The bottom line is, the real successful people in any industry are not the ones that are focused on the industry or their product or service itself, they are focused on making money from it.
The general consensus seems to be that you need to have the right gear ( IE, things to make other shooters jealous or use as a crutch to establish status on forums) and take pretty pictures to be successful.
If that's what people want to believe, I have come to realise that it's not in my best interests to change their minds so I'm happy for them to keep thinking the way they do.
If they think they are worth more than the clients do and think studying business is not important to them, they may or may not eventually learn the hard way.
I'm sure a lot of business related problems shooters have are blamed on onther things completely unrelated by their lack of business education and would be easily overcome if they had the business knowledge they should.
Understanding business is fundamental to any industry or profession and gives you good insight to know how to set, measure and monitor your pricing.
The fact is, sometimes you can't get what you need to cover all your extended costs. The market simply won't bear that.
You can then either decide to stick to your guns and refuse to get less than you calculate your worth or you can think that making $xx a day is better than sitting on my backside and still having to cover the fixed costs that will be there anyway. Myself, I'm not in a position to be proud or arrogant so I go out and work hard and may only make $300 for a days work sometimes but to me that's money I can spend to spoil my kids or wife or one less bill to worry about.
If I stuck to my high horse and went along with forum mentality of making sure everything down to the depreciation of my shoe leather was covered, then in many markets I would come home with nothing at all.
I may not make the $XX I calculate I need to give me $X profit per year or whatever hourly rate but sometimes just covering the fixed costs is as much as you can ask for and allows you to take off more cream later on.
I am always interested in how other business do things and ready to take on or use different ideas to set myself apart in my industry. Business is business and there are many professions that are tougher than ours and have to up the ante with their strategies.
Years ago when I wanted to build a website, I looked on the net and found that all the cutting edge stuff was done by the industry that was far and away the biggest earner on the web.... the Porn industry.
I looked at lots of porn masters sites and what they were doing to get traffic and business in their ultra competitive market and just adapted the ideas and strategies that would work in my market.
For more than 10 years my site listing has always been in the top 3-5 of any search engine and never off the first page even when I have had my host crash and stuff things up. I have had lots of people scoff at me studying porn site marketing but at the end of the day, my site is where I want it to be and ahead of the people that think the way I got it there and whom I learned from is amusing.
It's easy to overprice yourself out of work just the same as under price yourself and the more you know about business, the less likley that is to happen and the more profitable opportunities you will find open up to you.
There isn't much new under the sun these days and the wheel has long been invented. These days I don't go round trying to re-invent it, when my bike needs to go faster or overcome an obstacle, I just go find a wheel that someone else has made that will fit my bike and use that design to get things rolling again.
There are plenty of famous examples of bad business decisions and I don't believe the answer is as simple as getting someone to advise you on the "best way" to run your business. Even if you're not good at the business side, at some level you need to understand enough to know the difference between good and bad advice...
That's why I mentioned things such as insurance; the fixed costs of running a business do need to be covered by what revenue is coming in. This is the non-glamorous, non-cool stuff that most people on photography forums ignore but if you are going to collect money from someone for your photography work, you are a business and should be thinking of these things. How many are thinking of what are they going to do if the couple who's wedding they photographed decide that they hate the pictures and/or certain things weren't photographed and now have decided to sue the photographer over this?
BTW, photographers aren't the only people bitching about about newcomers who come in and undercut the established people; just ask any established landscaper or carpenter about the guys who come in with a truck and a mower or saw/hammer.
www.fastcatstudio.com
www.fastcatstudio.net - blog
Try to calm down, that goes for everyone. Have respect for each other - OP and responders alike. When you post on the internet, you're going to get lots of differing opinions. It's up to you to filter them all and decide what you want. Blustering (by OP and responders) is is just "noise" and we don't like it or want it.
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