Dance Studio pictures
fredjclaus
Registered Users Posts: 759 Major grins
My daughter, son, and baby (well 3 now) started dance lessons. This is my daughters 2nd year, but my baby and Son's first year. I walked into the studio to sign them all up and the studio owner and I got to talking about her class pictures. When I told her I was a photographer she asked "What percentage do you give?" I'm assuming that was referring to the kickback the photographer gives the studio.
Do any of you give a kickback to your dance studios for the pictures that are ordered? If so how much do you give?
Do any of you give a kickback to your dance studios for the pictures that are ordered? If so how much do you give?
Fred J Claus
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Commercial Photographer
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Lakewood, Colorado, USA
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I cant imagine doing 1000 dancers, just trying to keep the pictures sorted sounds like a nightmare.
Preprinted envelopes with packages prepaid, same as youth sports. That's the only way I would handle that many people at once.
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
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Sorry............I am a little confused about what transpired, and or if you were hired.
First when presented with a photography opportunity consider asking questions and discussing needs, expectations, quality, quantity, etc.
Ask about past photographers. Find out what they liked and what they disliked about them.
Money is the last thing to discuss.
If when speaking with a potential client: Example (The look I got from her when I said 15% was a bit confusing. I wasn't sure if it was that my percent was too low, or if I gave her more than the other photographers.)
While I think discussing money, royalties up front without the context of services / products / price schedule is meaningless, if your client looks at you like you have two heads after you make a statement............don't walk away confused!!! Ask the client............!!!
Sam
I found a thread in the past *no idea what photography forum* that had a great idea, just sell cd's of each set to the parents. But I cant remember how much they charged for each set. And since the kids are usually in more than one set/performance you can get more money out of the parents.
At the time I only offered prints, and I think it was to much for the parents. But they might be more likely to spend the same amount if they get more.
Now I just have to figure out how much to sell each set for. Each set will probably have 8 sets of kids, and maybe 50 pictures. Im thinking $20 to $40 for the set. I realize some may gasp at the low price, but if im able to sell $30 sets to 1/3 of the parents, I could estimate I could make $500 for the days efforts and my cost of doing business is minimal. Plus the digital file would be low/med resolution, to encourage them to get their 8x10's through me if they decide to get some. Just gotta figure out how to prevent the parents from sharing cd's with each other.
the only thing I'm planning on giving them is some free pics for the studio and the owner/ instructors kids.
For that sort of thing, kickbacks are not the norm here.
I Picked my Daughter up from dance class a week ago and was admiting the new, middle range Merc parked outside. My daughter came out and said that was the studio owners car.
If she can afford a $150,000+ car, shes doing a damn sight better than I am and there is no need for me to pay her anymore.
That said, I understand in some places that kickbacks are a requirement and I do get asked about them on some of the events I do. I tell them very excitedly about the free prints I give them and how all the other clubs love that and while I can see they are expecting a lot more, I keep on talking details etc so as soon as they answer me, the deal is done.
Very few will be quick or brazen enough to ask for more if you pitch yourself right.
One thing i have repeatedly found with doing this type of work and T&I etc is that the organisers will always talk lowest $$ for the product and max $ for their kickback.
As shooters we always thing " Wouldn't it be great to have some big sales or make a fortune from this" yet they don't provide a way for that to happen.
I always start off with the lowball figure that gets your foot in the door " Our prints/ cd's start from only xxx ( lowball figure for plain product).
Then what I do is offer 3 other bundles at very good returns from me and the last one is very high priced and includes everything but the kitchen sink.
I also then have 3 additional options that can be added to any package, mag cover, CD... whatever.
You sell a few of those $100 packages or plenty of add ons to the basic packages and they make a real big difference to the bottom line.
It takes a lot of $10 and 15 purchases to add up to anything substantial but a heck of a lot less $30-75 purchases to make your day a damn good one and i can always get PLENTY of those. It just makes things so much more satisfying when someone then tells you " People have no money and they won't spend it anymore if they do" Ya, right!
They won't if you don't give them anything to spend it on.
The point is, the people that won't spend always talk money and they always talk low end money. The people with money never mention it and it's easy to think that everyone is poor and won't spend.
If you don't give the people with money something to spend it on and you limit them to spending just a little, that's what they will exactly do.
Buy offering a range and including upmarket packages, I am allowing the people with money to spend it and spend it they will given the opportunity.
I have several friends that are just in average jobs and watch their budgets but when it comes to the kids, the question is literally " what's the best you have?" and thats what they buy. I have other friends that have very high disposeable incomes and they too will basically buy everything on offer if they like it and they always like pics of their kids.
Now I'm not saying everyone is like that but if you treat everyone like they are broke, you'll get disappointing orders that reflect YOUR mindset.
For the sets of CD's I think your idea is good but your costing is crazy!
It costs a shipload for the kids to do this dancing crap so don't offer a cheap-ass product to an upmarket crowd.
Yeah, someone will always bitch about prices even if you gave them the pics for free they would whinge you didn't courier to them and they had to wait till next weeks class to get them.
Meanwhile, the person standing next to them is Ticking all the boxes for all the options and doesn't even know or care what they have spent.
I love it when I hear people whine the pics are a bit expensive as they hand over their cash, I know I'm at the right price point then. I never hear people say they are not buying anything, because there is something for everyone to buy at any level so all the bases are covered.
Offer a range of products, CD"s and prints or if you just want to go Cd's, same thing, offer different levels of packages on them.
1 image = $15
2-5 pics = $30
6-20 pics = $50
All pics taken = $100
And put it in comparison, What is $15? One lesson's fees? A lipstick and eyeshadow?
What is $50? Less than what they paid for that leotard or pair of dance shoes that lasted a few months?
Whats a $100? Half a terms fees? What Mum will spend on the kids hairdo at the concert?
Give them options as to what they want to spend and let them spend as much as they can afford.
It's always the focus to not make things too expensive so people don't miss out, i say don't make people miss out by not allowing them to spend enough!
Prints, Cd's, whatever. Doesn't matter, it's merely a commodity you are selling and you market and package it the way that will bring you the best returns. The more offerings you have ( without confusing the guts out of people) the better chance they will spend more through buying multiple or higher value products.
I like to tailor my offerings to the people who have a few bux they will spend, not the tightarses that everything in the world, even freebies, are too expensive for.
I would say what the woman drives has NOTHING to do with this.
I own a 3000 Sq. Ft. Studio and we shoot no less than 6 Dance Studios and mutiple schools each year (and have for many years ... this is my 26th. year of doing this for a living.) If the Dance Studio owner does not become active in the process of the photo session, then I would argue that a Commission (not kick back) is not a good idea. In fact, we dropped a dance studio due to this very reason. The owner, main instructor most always attends all sessions, posing and correcting, perfecting dance poses for the photos. Unless you are a very accomplished dancer and know these poses, what makes them correct, and makes the dancer (and the Dance Studio) look good, you will NEED the dance instructor.
However, if the instructor owner doesn't take part and help with this facet of the session, I refuse to pay her a Commission. They choose my studio for a reason, because I do great work and am consistent at it and the poses make the dancer look great and accomplished as well as the Dance Studio. (BUT...I couldn't do it without the Dance Instructor.)
To judge the Dance Instructor because she drives an expensive car is silly and maybe a little jealous?
I don't know the 'norm' where you are, but I do know Business (many year of running a sucessful studio) and Commissions are a very vital and important part of making it in this industry. My Commissions paid are based on the involvement or the organization and profitability to my business. Not the car they might drive...thou I would be a little jealous if they drove a Ferrari!:D
For my business, the biggest draw is the quality of work and the service. More than once, a studio owner has tried someone else and in the end, returned to my studio. However, I do pay a percentage Commission to my Dance Studio Owners, for mutlipe reasons: 1) They don't have to use me; 2) they are integral and involved in the process and no one works for free; and 3) it helps make my work look the best it possibly can be.
I have no idea as to why you took such exception to what I said and read so much into what i didn't say.
I made a comment on the car, I made no judgment on the owner.
I'm afraid the point of your post is entirely lost on me.
My hope was that perhaps I could give someone some motivation or ideas with their marketing but apparently I failed.
I like your pricing scheme for the digital files, I'll have to try that.
I got a gymnastics event coming up next month. This gym has 3 seperate days of classes, each one with a different instructor. Each day has 3 classes, each an hour long.
Im going for 3 weeks, the first week to take pictures of the kids doing their things, beam, uneven bars, horse, floor routine, etc. 2nd week im going back to get the kids I didnt get before and to get better/more pictures of the ones that was there. I may even try some 3d pictures, dont know how well that would work with this since I have to prefocus 2 lenses manually before each shot, and push 2 shutter release remotes at the same time, fast moving objects may show how uncoordinated my two hands are, hehe.
Because of the sheer number of pictures Ill probably do the ballet performance cd pricing that you gave before.
I do like the idea of magazine covers, I was just wondering if you designed it yourself or if there are templates online for that. It would be great to go with a real magazine name, but im guessing that wouldnt be cheap.
How do you handle the picture viewing/ordering process? If they get a bunch of digital files, do you show them the pictures on the spot and write down the numbers they want, or do you just put them online and tell them to email you later, but pay you at the time of the ordering?
The last ballet posed session I did, the picture viewing went longer than the photo sessions, the parents were very indecisive.
Also what sort of options do you offer besides the magazine cover?
Oh no, I didn't have a problem with what you said, it just sounded a little callous to bring up the car she drove and paying her Commissions in the same conversation. Wasn't trying to offend. I would love to NOT pay a Commission to any Dance Studio, however most all of them are aware that it is common place and what the going percentage is.
The point I wanted to make, is I make my Dance Studio Owners work for their money. (And they don't realize that in the end they are making me shine by posing, correcting and making the dancers look their best,) and to not look at it as a problem. I have a meeting with my Dance Studio owners and I make it very clear that it can be a huge benefit to them to help me shine and sell more, or they can be happy with very little Commission if the photos aren't perfect. After receiving their Commission check the first time, I usually have no problems getting the Dance Studio Owner/Staff working for me.
As far as sales go, (we do not sell digital images,) our average sale is easily over 100.00 in prints and several speciality items (10x20" multi image collages, 3 image prints, etc.) are 129.00 for that single print/artwork. We do include Facebook/Social Media Site web ready images for an additional 10.00 on any order of 200.00 or more or purchase by the image for 5.00 each below that level. You would be amazed at the people that buy over 200.00 just to get the Web Resolution images for 10.00. (That is 10.00 for all of the images they purchased print for.) My goal is to average more than 200.00 per dancer order when doing these studios. I have managed to do that excluding the year following Hurricane Ike...but our studio was closed for two months to do repairs and most everyone in the area was doing the same...and NOT buy photos!
Last week I agreed to pay a guy commission to find me new clients. His price seemed a bit steep but he promises to find clients paying 30% more than I would normally charge - we will see. When he brings me work we should both end up winners.
I have dealt with customers, friends and family members from both ends of the earnings spectrum and this is sooooo true! I make sure I have something for everyone. One of my highest paying customers is one of the parents that has no limit when it comes to his kids....
I too offer onsite viewing of the photos at the time of the shoot and sometimes the station can get backed up. Part of this was because my wife (taking the order forms, etc..) was way too nice, gave into the parents wanting to mix and match things. This allowed the parents to "need to see more". This will not be happening this next season! As far as digital files, I have thought about offering digital files if a person spends over $xxx but this would only be low resolution, web sized files. I have also thought about using the same setup I use for my event viewing stations when doing T&I so multiple parents can view the shots and choose without clogging up the line..... I have a couple weeks to think about that one.
Oh, and unless he had a change of heart, Glort doesn't do the online thing... I posted all of my shots online after the T&I sessions, AFTER the packages had been ordered, because most of the people said that their families wanted to see them, well, I think what they wanted was for me to post them so they could grab screen shots. Thats why I put alot of watermarking on them... another topic covered in plenty of threads, so I will stop there.
Im thinking of making a new stamp, thats a circle, with my website on a circular path and my logo in the center. with proof and copyright somewhere. : )
In honesty, it's been quite a while since i did a dance school. In recent times it has mainly been sporting teams but the marketing logic is exactly the same.
I have a dance school booked in next month and the idea is to use View stations for the ordering.
The pics will be done at the concert rehearsal so my intention is to shoot the pics and have them ready for viewing and ordering on the day. If that doesn't work out for time constraints ( they have allowed 5 hours!) then I'll just take the Vstations back to the school on a select night and / or go the old fashioned way of printing proofsheets.
I'm still unconvinced of online ordering. With proofsheets they can't copy anything to put on the web and if they are that tight and take a pic with their mobile phone or something, then I'm not going to be worried about people with that little regard for quality.
The way I see it, no matter which way I present the pics, someone isn't going to be satisfied and I'll miss out on some orders. My position at this time is that NOT putting pics on the web Minimises those lost orders. For my event work I make it clear to people the pics are here today and today only. They have to make a decision and hand over the folding.
If I put them on the web, then that is an excuse not to buy and the impulse buy is lost as well as a myriad of other things creeping in that will cause them to forget, not get around to it or whatever.
I do realise people do well from net sales and no doubt they have the mentality and know the tricks to making it work for them. My experience is more in direct sales and I believe that works best for me.
In the absence of being able to see onsite, I'm doing proof sheets. I thing these have certain drawbacks like anything else but i also believe at the end of the day a lot of people like to hold something in their hand be able to feel it as well as see it even if it is a small low quality image.
People doing online are having to do low quality pics with watermarks all over them to reduce the theft of their images so my low res little (20 to an A4 page) proofs aren't that much different and there is no perfect solution anyway.
I do my proofs on my inkjet printer that has a bulk ink system so printing is not at all expensive. I put the sheets in plastic sleeves that cost about 2c ea and a plastic binder that is .69C ea.
As well as mag covers that we design ourselves, I do what I call inserts which are a vertical and horizontal pic inserted into a background as well as " commemorative" prints which have a border we make and put the name and date of the event on the print ( 1st Place, Hiip Hop, marys school of prancing, 2011) and a plain graphic border. These are sold as Extras that can be added to any package.
I like the idea of the Face Space and MyBook web images as well although i'd have to look at the process of doing it.
Right now I try to set up all my offerings for ease of production. My packages are set up in PS actions so I get the kids pic on the screen, hit a button and it spits out of the printer. I don't like doing editing, I don't like producing the product and i have a short attention/ interest sapn. I like to get the orders filled and out the way so i can get to my next hair brained scheme or sit on my butt. That's why although I admire the multi image collages, I don't offer them. The inserts and borders are enough.
For me, colleges are too much time and effort BUT, I'm happy with what I get from my other offerings and believe I'm getting basically the max spend out of people now. Colleges i believe would just be ordered in place of an easier to produce product rather than additionally to it.
They -may- sell Ok and I may test them in the future but they would definitely be a priced to kill product. If people want them, I better be making enough from them to justify sitting at the computer for hours playing with PS to produce them.
All that said, I suggest people do not follow my lazy example and do offer whatever their customer will pay them for. That's what business is about.
As far as indecisive parents, that's universal.
Give them 2 options and they will procrastinate. That's one of the reasons I do Disks, when you can't decide, here is a low cost way to have them all because whatever you decide today you wish you would have picked the other one tomorrow. Spare yourself the agony, get them all! :0)
Those that haven't spun that one might be surprised how well it works and gets the procrastinators out of the way so you can sell to the next person.
This is why I also work to very set numbers of products and options. 1 low cost base to get you in the door with your low starting price then 3 " real" packages plus 3, maybe 4 options.
I do fudge by making CDS different to prints but they are for the most part different markets.
What software do you use?
What do you do to prevent them from sticking in a SD or usb stick and copying the pictures when you are not looking?
Ok, not sure who this was directed at, but I will toss something out there as my answer. A laptop can be used as a viewing station, but I HIGHLY suggest that they NOT be used. Multiple reasons... I use a server, networked with multiple other PCs, ( # depending on the use/location ) and from those PCs I run Virtual stations where all the customer has in front of them is a monitor and a mouse. No keyboard, no PC to stick a USB drive in, etc. They can not get back to the desktop or any other screen without a password which they will NEVER figure out. I achieve this with event software ( Photo Parata, hope I spelled that correctly ). That is for my larger events.
At the last few T&I picture days, I simply set up a PC which my wife sat at with dual monitors (one for her and one for the customer ). I shot tethered to my MBP and had it networked to the PC. I had the images go right to a folder which my wife was able to open the pics and show the parent/athlete while I shot the next athlete.
Might be a bit overkill, especially just to answer your question, but thats one way to keep them from using a USB or SD card when you are not looking.
I have to say that the only reason I go thru the trouble of setting up a station for parents to view the photos is because TYPICALLY I will tell the kids to pick 3 poses and they can choose from those for their photo package. If I do my job as a photographer, then they will have no choice but to order one or both of the other poses as add ons to the package because " I just can't decide.... I love them all!" Music to my ears. If I am doing a very large group, like say a baseball league, then they don't have that option as I wouldn't have the time to let parents sit and choose. (Still working on that one...) And yes, the majority of the orders where a mom was there to order, did add the other poses as add ons.... many made multiple package orders.
Enough babbling from me...
with the gymnastics thing coming up, Ill be taking lots of pictures for 6 days, I guess Ill have to do my best and sort them before the 3rd week of classes when I do the posed shots so the viewing will go faster, less searching.
First: I never paid commissions. If asked, I showed a pre-printed envelope to the studio owner and told her/him that those were my prices and they could add whatever percentage they wished. However, if they added a flat amount or a percentage, a disclaimer was to be added to the envelope stating that 'x' amount of the price went to the studio. I lost a few studios over the years because of this policy, but never paid commissions and made more while working less. I also specialized in the smaller daycare or dance studios that the big guys (Olan Mills, Lifetouch only want 40 or more subjects) didn't want. I could go in setup, shoot 10-30 kids and be out in a couple of hours, and have the images to the lab by mid afternoon. Do that 3-5 days a week and make a decent living.
Secondly, as a previous poster noted, teacher (dance or school) had to be involved. I know photography, I do not know dance. The instructor/assistant had to pose the students, no exceptions.
Pricing: I shot one or two posed shots of each student and a couple of group shots on a pre-paid basis. (the reason for multiple shots was not to offer options but to cull out blinks, etc.) I then offered packages of prints with or without the group shot. I won't go into exact pricing since this is something each photographer must figure for themselves. I will say though, that my average was around $25-$40 per child shot.
Finished packages were delivered to the studio/day care for distribution.
www.Jerrywhitephotography.com
Say a gym has 8 classes over 3 days, one group seems to meet over 2 days, so really 7 different sets of classes. Would you do a group shot of each separate class, or get everyone to come in on a Saturday and do a huge group shot?
would you use the gym as a background or would you attempt to setup a background?
I would always use muslin(2) or canvas for background. A 6x7 canvas for preschool individuals , Vertical 10x30 muslin for dance/karate individuals shots and horizontal 10x30 muslin for all group/class shots.
www.Jerrywhitephotography.com
the last week im going to be doing posed shots, with a solid background with my portable background stand. But for the group class shots, I dont know if it would be easy to fit everyone infront of that, mine does go 12 feet wide, but it'll depend on the gym if there is space. One thought was to use the gym as a background, and use a narrow depth of field so itll be blury.
Have you been to this gym before? I don't really know your background, but typically gyms have terrible lighting. If you are planning action shots of them on the equipment, be ready with some fast glass/high iso.
Also with using the flashes there... I hate to take this thread in a different direction, but I only have one word for this one in a gym.... INSURANCE!
Im going there next Monday to do some practice pictures.
Got the insurance, both liability and equipment. : ) Got the fast glass, 50mm F1.8, 85mm F1.8 and 24-70 F2.8L, and my Canon T2i does up to 12800 but id rather not go that high, 1600 is as high as I like to go. And got my XT and 20D for backups. If I get enough pictures the first week, I may use part of the 2nd week to try 3d pictures with the xt and 20D.
I got five vivitar 285's that I can use, but hopefully one will suffice on camera with a bounce on the top, giving the light source a good 10 to 12 inches above the lens. It did great at the recent wedding I just did, the height would put the shadow behind them and down a bit so alot of the time you coudlnt see it, and the bounce I created diffused the light nicely.
I got many tripods I can put the flashes on, and a bunch of wireless triggers and optical slaves, but id rather not use them if I can avoid it, dont wnat someone to run jump and land on one.