Leopard/Tiger Shoot

shutterbug616

This was a blast. Comments plz how to do better.

shutterbug616

And the tiger

Ric Grupe

Wow! I should have had my coffee first this morning...now I don't need it!

Both shots are good...I prefer the second one showing the animal in his environment. It's the first one that woke me up, though.

shutterbug616

Thanks. Workign with both of these great cats was amazing.. The tiger actually charged me once.. Seems she didn't like me batting at a pescy fly around my head.. good thing there was a small body of water between us that was deeper than she anticipated and a trainer who chained her up and took her around the pond again.

Icebear

These "captive animals" (sadly) represent the only real hope for the perpetuaton of the species' gene pools. That is what's sad.

By the way, this is not a photojournalism exercise. There is no need to put caveats about shots. Just don't misrepresent. I don't think the OP misrepresented these wonderful shots at all. "Leopard/Tiger Shoot" certainly does not imply these animals were tracked down in the wild and photographed.

The leopard shot is stunning

shutterbug616

racer wrote: »

Great shots, the first is a amazing closeup, but I think you should state on your website that they are photos of captive animals. It might be obvious to photographers, but not so obvious to everyone else, and takes away from the wildlife photographers


thats just sad, and worse yet that you put a smilly face at the end of that sentence :nah

These animals are by far the best kept and well treated animals you'll find. They are given at a minimum 18lbs of food a day to every two days. They are heavily vaccinated and pampered. Yes it is sad that they are in a captive state, however, if it wasn't for this captivity, You'd never see them again in about thirty years.. thats how small the population is.

Don't let the captivity fool you either.. They would just as soon eat me as they would anyone else not associated with them on a daily basis.

I appologize for turning this into a issue for the rest of you visiting, But dont' take up words with me on animal captivity when its this captivity that will allow the species to contiue on as long as they are cared for. They get treated better than the homeless.

Icebear

racer wrote: »

I dont think I understand what your saying?

Photojournalism is a subset of journalism, where TRUTH is the paramount value. That's why newspapers have so many rules about postprocessing and cropping for their photographers. I'd put these shots more into the ART category. Artists are free to create.

Anyway, I am new to posting on a photography message board, so I have yet to learn all the unwritten rules, and exactly how to act, and what all is acceptable.
I am not sure if that type of shot and treatment is accepted by wildlife photographers, or is accepted by the members here. I purely posted on something I feel strongly about, so sorry if it is totally unacceptable

I will shut my big mouth up now, because it probably looks like I am only here to cause trouble, ugh, thats not my intention

No worries, Racer! Keep posting your opinions. There ain't no "exactly how to act" on this board, except respectfully. You weren't disrespectful. You expressed a clearly passionately held opinion, which I saw some nuance that was not important to you. I hope you did not feel I was disrespectful toward you.

I'll give you a for instance. One definition of "Macro Photography" is that the image on the sensor is at minimum 1:1. Most of the posts on our Holy Macro board don't meet that standard, but nobody brings it up as an ethical issue. If there's a "National Association of Macro Photographers" they probably have a rule about that, but not here.

There will always be differences of opinion on this board but, contrary to my experience on too many other boards, we generally manage to keep things civil, and avoid ad hominim remarks. In the Shots section we try to focus our comments on the photographs themselves.

I'm blathering. Keep posting.

Stash

These are excellent shots, but I have to agree with Racer in that it is not the kind of place or environment that I would be comfortable in.

shutterbug616

Ok... here let me make this as simple as possible..


#1. The cats were transported OUT OF THE PARK to a river area.
#2. They have to use chains on the tiger.. why... IT WEIGHTS 400LBS and stands eight feet tall on its hind legs. WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU USE that it can't bite through. Saying here kitty kitty to move it over land via foot isn't exactly going to work.. a 400lb tiger goes where it wants to unless you use some kind of tethering..
#3. This cat is part of a huge park that is not in the class of a zoo. These animals are often taken to schools for education. The park gives free tours at times to outreach programs. These animals have been and will be taken care of better than our own homeless people here in the U.S.

4. Once the animals was in position the chain was removed and only reapplied when they needed to regain control of the animal. Hell the leopard was placed on a dog tether..to the area the photogs were at and worked off of voice commands..then walked back to the trailer on his own behind the owner... So before ye judge me, my work, or this wonderful park.. investigate ask questions.. don't assume.

Last.. Here's a link to the park.. If your so worried about the care.. Stop by for a vist... NOW CAN WE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND WHICH WAS PHOTOGRAPHY?????

http://greatcatsworldpark.com/cmsj/

and a Youtube video of the owner working with Makai the leopard I posted a pic of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz_5DVgn06E&feature=related

my appologies to everyone here, this was not my intention behind this post. Animals are shot by photogrephers all the time and trainers are used to assist them getting those shots. What we went through was nothing compared to what the animals go through for movies.

John

dlplumer

:lurk

Ric Grupe

dlplumer wrote: »

:lurk

Blackwood

shutterbug616 wrote: »

This was a blast. Comments plz how to do better.

Stunning, though what they did to its teeth makes me squirm.

Thanks for sharing.

Icebear

Blackwood wrote: »

Stunning, though what they did to its teeth makes me squirm.

Thanks for sharing.

Jeebus! I hadn't even noticed that. Do you think that's something the keepers did?? Terrible if so.

Harryb

The first shot is outstanding

On the second capture I would attempt to tame the highlights and do some selective NR on the BG.

I would prefer if one would indicate if they are posting an image captured at a zoo or some other human controlled facility.

I also prefer if folks would do some quick research before saying stuff like a place doesn't care about its charges and is only trying to make some bucks. Great Cats World Park has a fairly good reputation. They like most other animal rehab centers, animal research centers, zoos etc will exhibit their charges to raise $ so that they can continue their work.

That said these discussions are useful because most of us who post here are concerned about environmental issues and the treatment of wildlife. Also how a subject is captured is also a pertinent subject for discussion. All I ask is that we keep it civil.

Harryb

That is subjective, what some might see as fair, others might see as mistreatment. What the majority might consider okay now, might be considered inhuman 20 years from now.

We will meet back here in 20 years and see what the majority thinks then

Also, there is a big difference between zoos, wildlife centers, rehab centers, and places like "cats world park".
Zoos dont chain there animals up for photo sessions
Rehab centers rehabilitate wildlife, then release it back into the wild, again, no pay for photo sessions

Sorry but that's wrong. I have set up paid photo sessions at local wildlife rehab centers for visiting photographers. The San Diego Wild Animal Park offers a paid photographer's "safari".

Rehab centers like the Audubon Center for Birds of Prey will use their charges that can't be released for display and fund raising. The raptors including eagles and hawks are "subdued" and restrained and taken to different venues for display to raise funds so that the center can continue its marvelous work.

Accordingy to Wikipedia the Great Cats World Park's " breeding projects involve the Amur Leopard, a highly endangered cat that will most likely be extinct from the wild by 2012, and the White Tiger, a cat whose genetic diversity is highly threatened by only a captive gene pool. The breeding projects at the park ensure higher genetic diversity for these beautiful and endangered animals. Craig and Emily, the park's owner/managers, live with the cats and have a strong relationship with these predators, despite being attacked by their charges over the years. The guided tours at the park ensure an up front and personal visit with over 16 species of wild cats, including a Clouded Leopard, Ocelot, Jaguars, and Snow Leopard, to name a few. The cats are highly bonded with these trainers and amicable towards the other staff members, relationships not seen at any zoo."

Ric Grupe

Harryb wrote: »

We will meet back here in 20 years and see what the majority thinks then

Sounds like something I'd like to do!:D

Icebear

Harryb wrote: »

We will meet back here in 20 years and see what the majority thinks then

Will there be a wheelchair ramp and Depends disposal facility? I'll try to make it.:rutt

Harryb

Icebear wrote: »

Will there be a wheelchair ramp and Depends disposal facility? I'll try to make it.:rutt

There will be a prize awarded to the best pimped out Rascal.

shutterbug616

Blackwood wrote: »

Stunning, though what they did to its teeth makes me squirm.

Thanks for sharing.

There was nothing wrong with the leopards teeth.. When I saw the print in 20x30 form, I too thought the lower right tooth was chipped, but it wasn't. I brought it to the attention of the park owner who had the leopard examined and found the tooth to be fine. I can only think that the saliva gives it an optical illusion.

shutterbug616

racer wrote: »

Thats totally what I believe, and I didnt need to do any quick research, because it was the whole idea of chaining up a wild animal and forcing it to submit to a photo shoot, that I didnt/dont agree with.



That is subjective, what some might see as fair, others might see as mistreatment. What the majority might consider okay now, might be considered inhuman 20 years from now.

Also, there is a big difference between zoos, wildlife centers, rehab centers, and places like "cats world park".
Zoos dont chain there animals up for photo sessions
Rehab centers rehabilitate wildlife, then release it back into the wild, again, no pay for photo sessions

regardless, I am against any place that mistreats there animals like that. If it was only as simple as paying to have a photo shoot with the animal, then I wouldnt feel so strongly about it, but there is way more to the story then that, way, way more... taming the animal so it submits to a person and sees the person as dominant (very creul process), grinding its teeth down, declawing it, tranqulizing them, chaining them down, chained daily for said photo shoots, etc, and what do you think happens to them when they become old or out of control, they are then usually euthanized, simply because they then cant go to a zoo or any place like that, and those are only a few things I believe are mistreatments, and I can be 100% sure that happens at "great cats world park", because those are a few requirements to be able to lead a tiger around on a leash
That dosent happen at a zoo, rehab center, conservation center, etc, and because of that, those animals cant be walked around on a leash, or thrown into a circus

Racer... #1. Those cats have their claws..on all four paws. #2. Those cats teeth are not filed down. #3. These animals have been around photographers all their lives so they are tamed from constant exposure to them. #4. If you've never been to the Great Cats World Park, then you sir/ma'am are talking through the wrong end. #5. The owner does not need to meet any specified requirements to have one of "HIS" animals photoraphed off the premis. #6. To prove that the tiger has all its teeth I'll post another photo just for you.

shutterbug616

Posting two shots of the tiger.. showing its claws and teeth are not filed down. Keep in mind also that in one of the pics you will see the owner and a handler both have chains wrapped around themselves to secure the cat should it charge one of its photographers.. Remember this is a 400lb female tiger that at any moment it gets pissed off, could end some one's day in a real mean ugly way. A risk ever photographer was willing to take.

shutterbug616

2nd photo

shutterbug616

I'm also happy to report that the tiger in these shots was raised from a cub. The mother abandoned the tiger from the litter.. Soooo racer if they hadn't stepped in.. this world would be one tiger less!!!

shutterbug616

Leopard from the same shoot and orginally posted in this thread

shutterbug616

shutterbug616 wrote: »

Leopard from the same shoot and orginally posted in this thread

Same leopard

shutterbug616

Racer, and yet you have no reply to the proof I've offered that these animals are not declawed, teeth are not filed down, and you can see that in this shoot chains aren't on the animals.. hmmmm you've just had to eat your words sir. Those chains are used only to move them from one place to another.. I'd be happy to show you a pic of the leopard sitting next to the owner off leash afterwich when we walked back to the vehicles, the photographers were ahead of the owner and cat.. the cat followed him until they got close to the vehicles then he reapplied the tether to put the cat back into the transport trailer. So your clearly not speaking of any education when it comes to the photo shoots I've been on or any experience from visiting the Great Cats Park.

shutterbug616

racer wrote: »

regardless, I am against any place that mistreats there animals like that. If it was only as simple as paying to have a photo shoot with the animal, then I wouldnt feel so strongly about it, but there is way more to the story then that, way, way more... taming the animal so it submits to a person and sees the person as dominant

(very creul process),

I suppose your an expert at animal training too.. that you've seen this first hand from attending THIS PARK?

(grinding its teeth down, declawing it,)

Yet my photos prove these animals aren't declawed,or have had their teeth filed down. A fact you say is a requirement...You know not what you speak of at this point.

tranqulizing them, chaining them down, chained daily for said photo shoots, etc, and what do you think happens to them when they become old or out of control, they are then usually euthanized,

Again WRONG!!! but then you haven't been to the park so you can't be speaking from any great experience.

simply because they then cant go to a zoo or any place like that, and those are only a few things I believe are mistreatments, and (I can be 100% sure that happens at "great cats world park", because those are a few requirements to be able to lead a tiger around on a leash)

Huh I guess you've been to the park then and seen this for yourself in order to pass such a judgement against this organization??

Guess my photos also prove that these animals aren't on chains 100% of the time as you claim they are.. Looks like they are well taken care of.. and BTW.. These cats are not euthinized at all when they can no longer be viewed by the public, they die of natural causes when their time comes. They are only put down when their quality of life which usually incorperates a disease such as cancer, or what have you, is not treatable and would prolong suffering.

That dosent happen at a zoo, rehab center, conservation center, etc, and because of that, those animals cant be walked around on a leash, or thrown into a circus

I am attempting to keep this as respectful as possible, but I find myself in an argument with a person who thinks they know what their talking about but has been repeatedly disprooven by their own comments and photographic eveidence I've provided. You have no first hand experience either from interaction with the owner of this park nor have you had experience of learning about THESE animals from this park so your overall objection to my photos, my comments are infact sir/ma'am with out merritt.

Harryb

racer wrote: »

Harryb wrote: »

Lets see,

so do they tame the animals, declay them, grind there teeth, etc, then lead them around on a leash?
Since you said "safari" I am guessing they are actually wild animals, treated much better, and the way they are photographed is much different?


You know why that is total BS, for the simple fact that non of those animals can be released into the wild. Breading animals that are tamed, only gives them buisness security. Non of those animals can be released and survive in the wild. Even animals that are slightly tamed, cant raise the type of offspring that can be released, and ensure the survival of the species. Even zoos, that give there animals tons of space, with the animals remaining very wild, the sucess rate of mating and raising capable offspring that can be released into the wild, that is very, very low.

The wikipedia article, and the idea that they are saving the species, is TOTAL bs, probably so they can try to convince people that what they are doing with there animals is okay


yes, and there is a good reason why that is not seen at a zoo, because the animals at a zoo are usually wild, and not tamed/mistreated.
We could argue about this forever, but it still does not change the fact that there is a minimum set of modifying of the animal that needs to be done inorder to be able to lead it around on a leash, and all of that is what I am against. Adult tigers just dont follow people around on leashes, and sit for photo shoots when the person tells them to sit.

Racer,

I have been careful to provide examples that I have had actual contact with. Your whole argument is based solely on your assumptions and is merely your supposition.

The sad fact is that many species of wildlife will become extinct in the wild and will only survive in captivity. Many zoos and wildlife parks like the Great World of Cats, the St Augustine Alligator Farm, te San Diego Zoo etc are doing what they can to keep many species going in captivity at the very least.

If you are going to call something BS then I hope you have something to support that position besides your assumptions. Otherwise your statement will have to fall into the category of

:bigbs

Ric Grupe

Intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.

What is fair?...nothing...it's all subjective.

I like these debates...beats petting the dog any day.:D

shutterbug616

Ric Grupe wrote: »

Intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.

What is fair?...nothing...it's all subjective.

I like these debates...beats petting the dog any day.:D

Grrrr grrrrr grrrrrr.. :beatwax

dlplumer

Interesting discussion. One thing you all have in common, for sure, is the love of animals. D