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Can we eliminate image-level pricing?
Baldy
Registered Users, Super Moderators Posts: 2,853 moderator
Based on feedback from many working pros, we're re-vamping the way prices are set, built around a price list model. It will make it much easier to set up prices for your sites because of the improved UI and the concept that prices revolve around lists, not galleries.
Here's the issue: it vastly complicates the UI to support image-level pricing and we're having trouble understanding the use cases for it.
One is cards. When a card is created now, we place it in my SmugMug creations with an image-level price assigned based on the gallery price that it came from.
We can handle that by leaving the card in the gallery it originated but making it hidden.
What other use cases are there for image-level pricing? Do you have galleries where you price images differently?
Reason I ask is supporting image-level pricing in the new model will slow down its release, make the UI more complicated, and increase the chances of bugs slipping through. If it's worth it, it's worth it, so we want to make sure we're not missing use cases we haven't heard about.
Here's the issue: it vastly complicates the UI to support image-level pricing and we're having trouble understanding the use cases for it.
One is cards. When a card is created now, we place it in my SmugMug creations with an image-level price assigned based on the gallery price that it came from.
We can handle that by leaving the card in the gallery it originated but making it hidden.
What other use cases are there for image-level pricing? Do you have galleries where you price images differently?
Reason I ask is supporting image-level pricing in the new model will slow down its release, make the UI more complicated, and increase the chances of bugs slipping through. If it's worth it, it's worth it, so we want to make sure we're not missing use cases we haven't heard about.
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Would pricing only be set at the gallery level or could we apply a different price list to some images in a gallery? It wouldn't be the end of the world (for me anyway) if all images in a gallery had to have the same pricing, but there have been times where I chose different pricing for some images in a gallery. I'd have no problem if I just needed a different price list already set up for those images.
I'm picturing a single screen where I'd be able to arrange images, view them in larger sizes, set captions and keywords, and choose a named price list to be associated with each image. That would make life simpler.
Dave
http://ssklar.smugmug.com
--- Denise
Musings & ramblings at https://denisegoldberg.blogspot.com
I set the price of all standard 2x3 prints for that image to 0 so they're not available, and priced the square format prints for just that one. The other images aren't available as square prints, just the 2x3 sizes.
Not having the ability to set the price for that one image means I have to move it to anoother gallery which at the moment (and for the forseeable future) would only feature that single image. It's not "wrong" to have a gallery with only 1 image, but it's a look I've tried hard to avoid.
Similarly, in my Lake Hodges gallery, I've got a number of panos but I've only come away with 1 standard 2x3 sized image I like enough to put up. Not being able to price that one seperatly means I have to reorganize all my galleries to avoid a situation where there's only one image in a gallery. Again, it's not wrong, but even having just 4 (as are in the Lake Hodges gallery) doesn't look great to me. If some of the morning colors weren't so striking I would have likely hidden the gallery until more are available.
Having the ability to price images seperately allows me to keep images together based on location (the way I want) not by image size.
SmugMug QA
My Photos
Simplifying the pricing screen would be even more fine.
The Railroad Photographer
www.railroadphotographer.com
-Danny
dannyberryphotography.com
Facebook
I take a bunch of pictures every weekend. Most are pictures of friends and I keep prices low. But occasionally I'll have pictures for a paying client mixed in, with higher prices.
Again, not too big a deal for me because I don't think I've ever sold a print to one of these people I set higher prices for and it's not something I've tried doing in a long time. I've considered setting different prices based on the quality of pictures, but that's FAR too time consuming with the current system. If I could set up price lists and had a very easy way of associating a price list with each photo (such as in something like the bulk caption tool), it could be done.
As for the UI, I have no idea what you guys are thinking of, but I think a spruced up pricing tool would be great. Instead of assigning pricing to a photo, gallery, or portfolio, we'd just give a name to the price list and be able to create as many price lists as we want. We'd then have a gallery setting that allows us to assign a price list to the gallery. And my preference would be that individual images, preferably in bulk, could be assigned other price lists that override the gallery price list.
And with a system like that, the other benefit would be the ability to create price lists based on aspect ratio of the picture. This would make it incredibly easy to turn off prints that would require cropping, for people that want to do that.
I think the concept of price lists is a great idea. I just hope you don't make it too limiting when it gets implemented.
Dave
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
www.richknechtphotography.com
Also, doesn't SmugMug have a way of determining how many pros are currently using image-level pricing? i can see this being a complicated query - so just curious on what insight you all might have already.
GreyLeaf PhotoGraphy
In my case I have 5 to 10 "signature series" prints offered in limited sizes and excellerated pricing. This allows me to increase sales on the back end. I even do this with cd prices. One cd does not include sig series prints and one does.
If this is removed I will be forced to go elsewhere AND take all my referrals with me.
I have a weekly podcast dedicated to the beginner photographer called PhotoTips. I have 80,000 downloads of the podcast each week. In that podcast we also talk about sound business strategy. Many of them follow my advice and choose smugmug as their website solution. I even had Chris mcaskill on the show last year to put a friendly face to smugmug. In fact I am signed up as an affiliate with you guys And make $1000 a month on my referrals. So I know they listen. Without the ability to have image level pricing we will be forced to go elsewhere.
Please please keep this.
Sorry I mistyped that. 80 thousand downloads a month and I can verify my downloads and referals. Again Chris was on my show. He may remember me from last year.
I agree and can attest to the fact that if it wasn't for his podcast, I would not be on SmugMug. I didn't even look for another solution, I took his word that this was the best place and when I looked into it and it did everything I needed it to do I immediately signed up.
If you have the ability to keep this feature in some way (even if it is implemented differently than now) please do keep it.
However, thank you for trying to improve the UI for pricing. One thing I have seen is how hard you guys work to try to keep everyone happy here. I know this is a case where you'll do the right thing for everyone!
http://www.MilestoneMomentsPhoto.com
I have "standard" and "panorama" sized prints that I only show the pricing for those formats on, so people don't crop on checkout. I either have to gallery price the standards, then image price the panos or the other way around.
I need that option.
http://www.takeflightphoto.com
http://www.usdgcphotos.com
We can't email all our pros because we wouldn't be able to go through all the responses, so we're just collecting as representative a sample as possible.
We are hearing some legit cases, like in this thread and pondering how best to handle. Supporting image level pricing is a massive undertaking, partly because of the non-optimal DB queries it requires which make performance and reliability at scale so difficult.
One workaround would be to put the images you want special pricing for into an Unlisted gallery, price that gallery with its own pricelist, then Collect them or use a smartrule to put them in the gallery alongside the rest of your photos from the shoot.
In general, I'm not a huge fan of having to use a work around on a new system when a viable option is already available on the old system, but in my case this idea might actually work. And would probably work better than I currently have it. Right now, I've got a number of panos in different galleries and I'm sure one or two are probably not priced right.
If I put them all in one gallery with a gallery price and then collected them into Location based galleries, I could at least be assured that they would all be priced correctly.
The issue I see with this workaround is that I then lose the ability to manually arrange those images. I just tried it with the square photo from my California Coastline gallery and you'll notice that "Under the Pier" has dropped to the second to last image. (Auto arrange is set to "none" as the auto arranging options move the photos out of the order I would like them to be in)
If it's possible to implement the ability to arrange these collected photos, then this workaround works for me and I remove my objection to dropping image-level pricing. However, if that just can't be done, then even the workaround creates problems in how I would like my images to be displayed.
SmugMug QA
My Photos
Problem with smartrules is that if I want to park a Signature Series Print into a customer gallery, it would park all of them there. Including images from other customer galleries. It also requires you to place keywords on all of those photos. Very time consuming.
http://www.fkphotography.ca
I agree whole heartedly. There are many of us in the Phototips community that followed the advice, recommendations and teachings of Jimmy Beltz.
The fact that I signed up purely because he recommended you guys in a business class I purchased from him shows that he has a loyal and dedicated following.
Not only would changing this destroy all the good work he has put into creating a following for your services aswell as his own, but you would be making the lives of our own customers much more complicated to understand what they want to buy and how much it is.
Im a firm believer in both "Keep It Simple Stupid" and also "If it aint Broke, Dont fix it" with this proposal you seem to be making it both less simple and taking a good idea that works and breaking it.
If this idea goes ahead I will be looking for a new host that doesnt let me make my site, my way and get it the way i like it for them to just say "ok all is well, lets move the goalposts for a laugh"
That is not looking after your customers, and frankly I think along with Jimmy beltz and a large majority if not all of his referrals may jump ship and seek a new hosting site.
For the last year the phototips community has been told how great you guys are, yet now it seems you may turn your backs on us all should this change happen.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont change this. It may seem like something insignificant but as I mentioned in my email exchange recently, This will affect my business model, confuse my customers and potential cost me business also.
Im sure I wont be alone in this view and as Jimmy Says above :"If this is removed I will be forced to go elsewhere AND take all my referrals with me. " I Am one of those referrals and am also a moderator on his phototips forum with a very loyal and active member base.
This is a mistake, please recognise that and halt this change now
Thanks
Andy Comber
Don, Andy, Chris...SOMBODY!!!!
Whoa guys, first we can't remove the footer and now you are removing how
I can make money.
clientele base? Go ahead .. then you'll have to raises prices to make up
for the loss after more people exodus then you create a nasty spiral. I
am Pro pilot in aviation and that's what we call a spin -> one wing is flying
while the other is stalled. A good idea and a bad idea at the same time.
Listen, seriously, this is how Smugmug makes it money and its own
business practice (plan) is by offering something then offer more for
more $$$. You said "here you can use SmugMug for free-- but if you want
this then we'll call it a Pro account...multi-tier pricing. This is
exactly how my business plan is set-up...
(added)
Tier 1~ I sell individual prints to a client at a set price.
Tier 2~ I offer prints with a signature on them at a higher price.
Tier 3~ I sell a group of prints in packages at a higher price.
Tier 3b~ these special photos are order and mixed within the gallery the way I want to present them to the client.
Tier 4~ Prices come down with referral (which is something I don't know that Smugmug does)
Tier 5~ even IF there is a problem with an order~ I am immediately notified and I WILL take care of the problem its >>>>about building a relationship with your customer.<<< Not passing the responsibility off to someone else~ no matter how good they are.
I really don't know what they are teaching at Business Schools these days but somehow we've moved into its about the sale and NOT about the relationship with your customer. Photography is personal. You can't expect to grow your business charging $200 in sitting fees then $100 for an 8x10. You may be an Ansel Adams and it will be the first and last print sale you do because they are "**wow'd**" by it but what about in 5 years and they need
Senior Portraits(graduation) , 5 more and then need engagement then the wedding comes along...?????
Look this is really how it is from my point of view:
1) I just "got over" the "sorry it's NEARLY..site wide customization" so
you can't get rid of OUR footer. (I'd really like to know who "brained" :smack
this one up?) I mean my clientele are paying customers NOT photographers
or they wouldn't come to me - - they are NOT your hopeful new "Pro" :bash
signers AND if something is wrong with their order I wanna know about
it... not go behind my back to you wonderful people. As well; site-wide
customization was a part of that multi-tier pricing that Smugmug got me
hooked on and I went Pro. You are making me think too hard for an
alternative to Smugmug.
2) You mess with my money making opportunities too :pissed....I WILL pack my bags~~
er' photos. As a consumer I just don't have time or the money to sit
while Smugmug tries "new" business opportunities. First rule in
Business 101 is take care of your current customers....growth AND referrals
will follow.
Most & VERY Sincerely,
:s85
Don
--
Don Copley
Idaho Falls, ID
Grand Reflection Photography
http://www.grand-r-photography.com
"Producing the highest quality of photography, with the an emphasis on the you, the customer, reflecting the beauty within."
As Jimmy and Andy says, dont destroy a good thing, just leave it as is.
Anders Hareskov
That was the workaround that I was thinking of, but I don't like having to use a workaround for a desired feature. I understand that this may create a lot of work but if 95,000 images will be affected negatively, it will create a lot more work for the customers!
Now, with that said, if you add the ability to quickly (and easily) collect an image from another hidden gallery at a special price AND allow me to organize the public gallery so that those images show up WHERE I want them to and they act just like they were originals in that gallery... well then I'll probably be ok with that. BUT that has to come before the removal of individual pricing and it has to be easy.
Of course, if you could be so nice and not make us do all that extra work... I bet the owners of those 95,000 photos would give you a big hug!
http://www.MilestoneMomentsPhoto.com
Don (and all) - thanks for the passionate posts! Please know that we don't take this lightly at all, and it's not being considered on a whim. There are performance reasons why we need to look at this - please re-read Baldy's post here: http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1453436&postcount=20 and my post just below, as we feel like we can all have our cake and eat it too - it would just be done a bit differently, that's all. Thanks!
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This is awesome feedback - and we really appreciate it. Image Level pricing is still obtainable, even if we make this change. It would work like this:
All of your special prints (that require image level pricing) go into an unlisted gallery (Call it "Signature Gallery" maybe
This feedback from you and everyone here is really valuable, thanks!
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