Background and hair lights
Hair lights and background lights. Discuss. All comments, suggestions, ideas, musings, and links to articles actively sought and welcomed.
These days, I'm pretty confident shooting a 1-light+fill-reflector setup - this is a look I really like (especially with the addition of a Photek softliter, which really does offer softbox quality in a smaller, cheaper form) and I've done enough of it now that I'm fairly confident I can get predictable results with it.
BUT... sometimes this isn't enough, particularly when shooting dark-haired people against a black background. I've experimented with using my second flash behind the subject, but have seldom been satisfied with the results:
1. No matter how much I try to reduce the light on the bg either with modifiers or power reduction, it always seems to be too much. In a bigger space, I guess I could just pull everything forward, but I don't have the space to do that.
2. I'm never happy with bg light placement, either - hiding it behind the subject is tricky at best, and when I've tried for rim lighting of some kind, I've usually wound up with bad flare instead. Adding some hairlight from above has been a bit better, but it generally tends towards a harsher, more old-fashioned studio look that I don't care for.
FWIW, I shoot using 2x Canon flashes on ettl - while my 430 will run manual, I've usually been happier with ETTL since I don't have a lightmeter, I can control flash exp comp from the camera and 99% of the time it's given me excellent, predictable and reproduceable results. Modifiers include a 45" Softliter (almost always my first choice these days), 36" convertible umbrella, 42" shoothru umbrella and small (homemade - about 12") softbox, and homemade grid attachment.
SOOOO.... all that said: Discuss
Thanks in advance!
These days, I'm pretty confident shooting a 1-light+fill-reflector setup - this is a look I really like (especially with the addition of a Photek softliter, which really does offer softbox quality in a smaller, cheaper form) and I've done enough of it now that I'm fairly confident I can get predictable results with it.
BUT... sometimes this isn't enough, particularly when shooting dark-haired people against a black background. I've experimented with using my second flash behind the subject, but have seldom been satisfied with the results:
1. No matter how much I try to reduce the light on the bg either with modifiers or power reduction, it always seems to be too much. In a bigger space, I guess I could just pull everything forward, but I don't have the space to do that.
2. I'm never happy with bg light placement, either - hiding it behind the subject is tricky at best, and when I've tried for rim lighting of some kind, I've usually wound up with bad flare instead. Adding some hairlight from above has been a bit better, but it generally tends towards a harsher, more old-fashioned studio look that I don't care for.
FWIW, I shoot using 2x Canon flashes on ettl - while my 430 will run manual, I've usually been happier with ETTL since I don't have a lightmeter, I can control flash exp comp from the camera and 99% of the time it's given me excellent, predictable and reproduceable results. Modifiers include a 45" Softliter (almost always my first choice these days), 36" convertible umbrella, 42" shoothru umbrella and small (homemade - about 12") softbox, and homemade grid attachment.
SOOOO.... all that said: Discuss
Thanks in advance!
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Ya know Divamum, considering all that you've mentioned here, why not go ahead and post some results you saved that show exactly what you do not like? Nothing at all wrong with discourse and all, and you'll probably get some of that. I think visuals work best for me. So did ya save any to Show?
I wonder if I should post a link to this in People to see if more people there have any thoughts? ~muses~
yeah, good idea, even if it belongs here, but do post them with the photos. Otherwise I feel all you will get is conjecture and really, it is about the photos result. Personally, I've had good luck with dark BG's. So a photo of what you don't like would help me.
It is all about lighting YOUR space and getting it to deliver. Which is why I worry over conjecture or generic answers. You know all the rules of lighting. And you, like many of us, would also like a Much larger space to play/light within.
Get well soon~:cry
And certainly no worries on the late replies, I figured you'd have a dozen replies by now.
What's the size of your space?
For modifiers, I might look at a snoot or a grid to provide direction for your hair light. I would also set this flash to manual to better control it. If, at the lowest power setting, it still produces too much light, you will need to move it. I'd suggest kleenex or something over the head but I'm not sure what that will do to the color temp (I'd try it).
control as I use them to color my bg's so I did not have to own dozens of bg's.......
As to hair lighting - snoot are almost a must and if your lowest setting is too much then add neutral density gels over the flash unit, before adding the snoot or some spun
diffusion material.....the spun diffusion samples are in the Rosco Sampler Cine Gels.
+1
I still think part of my problem is one of positioning, which is partly why I started the thread, to see how other people set up their bg, hair and kicker lights (note to headcold-full self: remember to post link in People). Should a hair light come from above and to the side, behind and below, or... ? I think I'm confused. Also, if trying for a rim light where is that best placed?
You asked about my space: I usually shoot in my living room, which is about 10x14, but some of the space is lost to furniture, of course. I can pull my subject about 4-5ft in front of the bg, but that's pushing it about as far as I can go (and means I sometimes wind up backing out the front door to get the distance I need!!
Okay. I'll stop balking and give it a go.
Rim light. you know that comes from behind and typically gives a subtle outline of your subject. It is placed behind and tends toward the upper third of the subject. and it does not have to be set up so it is symmetric, asymmetry gives it some style.
Hair light. If I had the space, i'd tend to set mine up about twelve feet or so above and from the rear (bout 8 feet back), right/left no matter. Prob is, in a typical living room of modern construction you rarely have that kind of ceiling height. It is for that reason I tend to sit my folks down when using a dark/medium key. When I sit them down, I can do pretty much all I need with one light for them and add effects for the ambiance or BG if desired. but for the subject I find one light works for my purposes. For high key, I have things so well lit, I tend to not need a specific hair light.
I'm really surprised you're having this difficulty. I thought I had seen plenty of nicely done portraits over in people that you did of your co-performers??
I have done some portrats this year that I've been very happy with, but generally 1-light+reflector, or nat-light+reflector. It's when I move to a multi-light setup - particularly with lights from behind - that it starts to get funky. Obviously, when I'm shooting dark on dark this is something I need to address - it's really been bugging me, so I decided to do me some learnin'!
Finally, some (bad) examples. Not only do I find the results unpleasant, I find it superhard to predict what I'm going to get as soon as I move to more lights ... which tells me I don't really know what I'm doing
#1 1/80; 5.6; iso 200
Dark-on-dark. To get my own hair even visible, I had to do a lot of PS processing with brightness/contrast layers and dodging/burning which, for a simple shot like this, seems really excessive. And, frankly, the result is just nasty (makes my hair look dirty, which it wasn't). Some kind of hair light from c.l. or behind to give it some separation would, I hope, have helped. But I'm still not sure quite how I would have done that while still keeping both nicely dark and avoiding the "80's soap star" look
#2 1/100; 2.8; 250
This one's not a bad shot overall, but the shadows are definitely plugged up in the hair on the off-light side. I think with the crop it still wors, but it would have been nice to have a little fill behind and cr....
#3 1/80; 2.8; 280
An attempt to separate dark suit and bg. EPIC FAIL! I suspect I put the flash on the floor cr because I ran out of room to get it far enough behind the subject. Regardless, it's a hot mess of a result.
#4 1/100; 2.2; 280
Another FAIL - attempt at rim lighting. obviously, I have it pointed too low, but how to I manage to get it higher and still 1. hide it directly behind the subject (only 3.5' or so between her and bg) and 2. not wind up shooting directly into it and getting bad flare?
Hope that helps identifying the kinds of things I'm fighting to fix - thanks in advance to anybody who chimes in!
The site is run by Syl Arena who is pretty darn good with Canon Speedlights
#1 1/80; 5.6; iso 200
#2 1/100; 2.8; 250
#3 1/80; 2.8; 280
#4 1/100; 2.2; 280
And yup, I really do shoot that open by choice - sure, with that shallow DOF it means I get some with missed focus, but not only do I like the "meltaway" effect it gives the shots, but it also helps keep bg wrinkles and imperfections minimized when I can't move the bg further away ...
All were ETTL with 430ex (420ex for 2nd flash) fired using the ste2 off a 7d (I've been continuing to use my ste2 simply because I know it better, and the external settins are quicker to adjust - at some point I'll have a chance to get to grips with the 7d's onboard controller and 3-group ratios, but one thing at a time!)
Thanks for the link! I"ll have a dig through that.
http://www.danalphotos.com
http://www.pluralsight.com
http://twitter.com/d114
One thing that comes to mind when I see these shots is the size of the space you've complained about. The prob with small spaces is of course that light wants to bounce all around them. Of course, that's uncontrolled. Controlled light bouncing can help.
1. I think this photo is the perfect place to use a snoot for the BG. I use those 3.5 inch round mailers that SM/EZ prints have sent in the past for photos. Cut to desired length ( 4"?), it can allow you to set the BG light right along side of the folks your shooting while the light goes directly towards the BG.
For Hair light in this shot, with that nice broad light high and to the right, a simple reflector placed above the pair reflecting downward might have done the trick. (For reflectors in the studio, I tend to like those 3/4" sheets with reflective aluminum on one side that are r-12 rated for insulation at LOWES or some other home warehouse. The reason I like these is they come 8 ft. tall and 4 foot wide and at $11 a piece I can then take a razor knife and cut to suit. Or take one and slice it length-wise and have it fold in the middle and stand as a bi-fold door might, but with reflective material.)
How do you mount this type reflector? You can push-pin it right into the ceiling, or use strings to bring it down some and allow it to hang above.
But I use a boom-stand to hold things above. I think if you had room, perhaps as little as three feet, you could have ND-Gelled a FG (Flash-Gun) and boomed it over the subjects.
2. Even though it is a close crop, the reflector for hair and a snooted FG for BG.
3. Perfect place for a Snooted FG on that BG! and reflector above or FG on boom above. Also that BG is lovely and seems to be begging for a cookie! I actually kinda like the light coming from behind him and think it could work even stronger if you had other things in place.
4. Perfect example of why rim lights need to be towards the upper third of the subject: It looks as though you forgot to light the hair!
Thanks for posting these shots! That helps tremendously!
BOOM STAND
Talk about missing the blindingly obvious!!! That is seriously going to have to be one of my next purchases. I can't believe I didn't think about that before... My challenge isn't so much knowing where to put the light (I think I have at least a basic grasp of that) but GETTING it there in ways that it doesn't show in shot.
Ok, now that I've recovered from my own stupidity (or at least ability to miss the forest for the trees!), some specific replies:
#1 Yes, there was a reflector to camera left, but probably not placed high enough. I sometimes use my big windows on that side as fill, too (they have blinds on them so I can adjust the amount of light), but on this occasion was trying with the blinds closed just to see what happened (this was a practice shoot for me and Mini-Deev, so I had the luxury of playin' around). The main problem with the windows is that I then get mixed light temps, and even if I do a custom WB it can be funky when processing because the light temps vary on either side of the shot.
So: get reflector higher.
#2 Control 2nd flash. Snoot, snoot, snoot.
#3 "Cookie"? 'Splain please
#4 Yeah, this was a pain - I couldn't GET the light any higher!! I still haven't figured out how to both hide the flash successfully and situate it (or flag it) so it doesn't cause flare. It was on a small stand on the floor pointed back at her. I couldn't move it any further away and if I pointed it up any more, I wound up shooting straight into it.
There must be an obvious solution I'm missing here, too.
ETA: And if I'm not using my reflector, I can even use my reflector stand (with its boom arm) as a temporary lighting boom. Yippee! Maybe I can try this today!!
No stupidity noted! It is indeed forest and tree land, and nice to have some company too!
[/QUOTE] Mos def!
#2 Control 2nd flash. Snoot, snoot, snoot. A Cookie is what folks call those thingies that you put in front of your light to cause a shadow effect on a wall. For instance, setting a plant in front of the light so the plant's shadow reflects upon the wall, kinda like giving it a bit of texture, but with shadow.
Thinking once again of a smallish space, I wonder if you couldn't take a strip, say 2' long and 1' wide and hang it over and a bit behind your subj. and use a flash with a snoot right above the camera point toward the reflector? Like that insulation board I was talking about...that stuff is super easy to work with!
I so look forward to your results! Forgive me for being somewhat stuck on reflectors. Working in a tight space makes direct flash really difficult to control, yet for me reflectors take some of the pain out of it.
Cheers,
I did some more this afternoon, having persuaded Mini-Deev to donate some more time to the cause (however reluctantly
I'll either come back and edit today's efforts in or post later. Still fighting this da** cold and very sub-par so everything that requires concentration is taking a bit longer than usual!
Oh, another question: I always thought hair light went opposite key, but I'm now reading a bunch of "classic" light patterns that suggest it goes on the same side. Given that I'm trying to counter fall-off on the non-key side, surely bringing it in from off-key makes more sense, or am I missing something obvious there, too? Golly there is SO much more to think about once you "graduate" to more than one light................
And Exhibit B, the hair light is probably a bit too high, too central, and too much:
These were with the rh side flash on a boom arm (I need to get a real one so I can attach the flash properly, but this was an ok make-do to play around with it this afternoon) - it was the 420ex as my B group flash, with a home made toilet-roll snoot on it. Definitely controlled the light better.
Key light was the 32" bounce umbrella - it was just quicker and easier to set up the smaller rig. I suspect with the wraparound that the 45" softliter gives, the key side would have had a little more detail against the black.
I'm still struggling with rim lighting - once again, I just can't seem to position it right. I'll keep trying.
You do need to go ahead and set up the BG light, I think these would benefit greatly from it. Overall they appear kinda flat, and I think thats due to non-ambiance: no BG light, or spacial lighting.
Seems like I need to acquire a 3rd light sooner rather than later (or figure out how to use one of my Home Depot clip lights as an addendum until such time as I get a 3rd flash!)
Now, this begs the next question: how do you bg light black without it becoming.... NOT black? Super low power? Does one gel it so that you just get a hint of "glow" rather than "light" per se?
Sorry to keep throwing these questions out there, but I really want to figure this out... or at least figure it out better.
Thanks in advance to anybody (Bueller? You all out there?) who wants to chime in!
If you decide to mix the light, you might want to take a look at this.
I think this is a good question! You're right, if you want true black, then no light is needed. If you'd like Low or medium key on your subj. there is no reason not to have a bit of ambient light within the space, just for a spacial effect, if that's an effect you'd like.
I do know once you get into these kind of situations, a third light makes things a bit easier. If you don't have a third, then getting creative with reflecting light is a choice that could produce results.
1. KISS! Seriously. I make things so hard for myself sometimes
2. Tom, it took a day or two but the penny suddenly dropped about overhead reflectors - I suddenly imagined a movie shoot with a big ole tilted panel overhead and (duh) realised that's easily done with my reflector stand and a piece of foamboard.
3. I need a boom stand with multiple arms and/or some magic clamps so I can attach things at different heights.
A bit pathetic, but I ran out of models so resorted to using a dark-haired doll (hey, the price is right, and at least she doesn't have any needs or demands and sits still all the time!!!
K.i.s.s. ....SO very, very true!
I kept hoping I'd get around to being able to shoot-n-show you the uses for the board, but it didn't happen. Glad that image finally planted itself....and BONUS, with the 7D Video on your horizon, you now can get light into and around spaces with that same material. The cost of some of these video lights/lighting is...pricey! I've used that material time after time working with video.
I say use your doll until you get a set working, then sprint the Mini-D out to cinch the take.
Cheers,
a lot of the "old masters" had hotspots in their shots...now bg companies are putting hotspot in the bg's for the bg light to be aimed at.....
as to hiding the bg light...that was neigh impossible with my WL5000's and is hard with any MONO LIGHT, but a speedlight can be hidden easily,
by using its foot (my nikons came with a foot)......or a small 18-24" light stand (bg stand, which is a lot smaller all around than a regular light stand).
Or make one out of a small coffee can with a metal rod to attach an umbrella light holder to and attach your speed light to this...the commercial bg
stand is at least adjustable.
Also with the bg stand almost directly against the bg and pointed at the subject with speedlight head adjust to wide angle you could get a glow
of light on the edges of subject as long as main and fill do not totally over power it. This glow (rim light) can be enhanced by using an amber gel or other color
depending on the mood to be set....it is easier to do rim lighting for me from behind and lower or subject centered light placement....especially in small studio areas.
EDIT:...my mind has not been working quite right lately with my Lab, Sadie, Getting worse (liver cancer and enlarged spleen) and then my back window getting broke out betwwen 9pm
friday and 7:45 am sat..........so I hope I am still correct with this.................
Aperture actully controls most of you lighting on your subject....the background is controlled by shutterspeed...
so if you shoot at or close to your top sync speed that should help alleviate a lot of the bg concern............
I'll start by joining in here as I have much interest in this thread.
First I must say I am surprised at your apertures bit I can see how the light is manageable using the speedlights.
I don't think I could shoot at this close a distance with anything wider than f/5.6 with the strobes even at minimum power without blowing out faces.
The results you've posted are much appreciated to show the progression of your work.
Off to read more...and thanks for starting this thread...
Thanks for continued input, guys - keep it coming!
Art, ss does indeed control ambient, but if I'm shining light directly ON the bg... it will light up. Like this (gridded speedlight on a mini-tripod slight to CR and behind subject - suddenly remembered I had one and roped it into use as a bg stand for the time being)
I use a Botero double-sided popout bg which I LOVE but, unlike seamless, it tends to wrinkle a bit. Because I can't pull the subjects further away from it, I use aperture and light falloff to make it "disappear". When I'm using the white side, I can blast it out for a high key look, use gels to change colour, or leave it entirely unlit so with falloff it turns a pleasing light grey. I may invest in an 18% grey bg or a brown spatter at some point for greater variation, but for now I'm trying to create my different looks through lighting
Here's what I did yesterday:
Here's the setup at this point
And the effect of that lighting state:
But I think my favorite results of the day came from abandoning the idea of bg/hair light at all, and setting up the other flash with a small softbox @90* camera right (it's a little high, but that support won't go any lower - it would be fine for a person!
Setup (I also reversed the brolly for this setup, since I figured I was using "real" fill and it would be a bit softer)
Fill only (ratio strongly favouring the key, and also some kleenex over the flash head to reduce output further):
Both:
It's still a bit flat for my taste - and I can see where a 3rd flash would make quite a difference - but the 45+90 degree placement certainly does improve the dark-on-dark-bg shadows that 1+reflector gives.
FWIW, this is the kind of black-on-black look I like - and if you go to her blog and scroll down... she talks about how she created it!
Another interesting link: there's no way I'm buying it, but [URL="[url]http://www.evanscreativetraining.com/fashion.html[/url]"]this trailer[/URL] has some really interesting info in it too, including showing somebody ELSE'S lighting setups.... and the results. Good stuff!!
1. It's all about space.
No matter how dark your BG is, if your subject is too close to it *will* be lit. 5-6 feet or more should do the trick, less than 3 - you're asking for trouble.
2. It's all about control.
The reason I rarely use umbrellas/(white) reflectors is that they're splilling the light all over the place and are impossible to control. And while it can be OK if you shoot in Yuri's style (wall/ceiling reflection) for a uniformly lit daylight effect, for a low/medium key scenario they spill too much light in all directions.
3. Grids and gobos are your friends.
Especiall for the rim/hair lights, since they are looking towards the camera and, if given a chance, will create that nasty "light fog" effect that eats up your dinamic range, and, if reaching the subject, is next to impossible to PS off. Lens hoods, distance (lights-to-subject and camera-to-subject), grids (on the lights) and gobos (between camera and lights) can eliminate it.
HTH
Nikolai