Big Racing Show Pricing Question

JBHotShots · October 6, 2010

Looking for a little of advice on pricing. So a couple years ago I went to a very, very, big race; 3 days $10,000 to win. I got some great shots, as seen here. The problem I had was there was an on site printer there. His shots were descent but not as good as what me and my friend were offering.

This year I am lucky and get the chance to go back. I've already started marketing by adding pictures to my FB page and adding the racers that I can find pictures that I took and tagging them in them. I have got a good response so far and no objections to what I feel is a little forward for me. In order for me to compete with the on site printer I feel I have to offer something that he isn't, so what I am leaning towards is CDs.

The images would be 800px on the longest side but I've never wanted to sell them before. This is the quetion: What should I put on there? This is a three day show, where some cars won't get to race, or need to race, more than twice and there are 4 different classes racing.

Should I do by class for one day or all three or all classes for one day or all three? I don't think I could get enough action shots of every car to offer just a CD of one driver so that is pretty much out of the quetion. Also, depending on what I put on there, I have no clue what to charge for this. I'm looking at a starting point of 1 class, one day for $50. Sorry for the long post but I was trying to be clear about what I am asking; I know it's as clear as mud but I've tried...LOL

Thanks

mercphoto · October 6, 2010

First, not sure why you'd sell pictures on CD that are only 800px on the longest side. As an ex-racer myself I'd want the high res JPG, nothing less. Second, not sure I'd want pictures of other people's cars either.

JBHotShots · October 6, 2010

mercphoto wrote: »

First, not sure why you'd sell pictures on CD that are only 800px on the longest side. As an ex-racer myself I'd want the high res JPG, nothing less. Second, not sure I'd want pictures of other people's cars either.

Hi-res and driver's car; noted. So this will obviously change my pricing plan. Any more suggestions?

mercphoto · October 6, 2010

If they're racing only twice that does present a challenge on getting a variety of track shots. And I'm going to guess there are races happening each day? I'm just curious if there is a day where you could spend the entire time in the paddocks.

Competing against on-site printing is going to be tough, period. I'm wondering if you have any ability to contact racers BEFORE the event and pre-sell photo packages to include on-track but also paddocks and other type shots.

JBHotShots · October 6, 2010

I should have ample amount of time each day to spend pre race in the pits. Pre selling isn't really a viable option but adding previous drivers on Facebook and tagging them seems to be a good start. I'm just loking for something the other guy isn't doing.

johng · October 6, 2010

Here's some other advice - contact the promoter and let them know what you're doing. You'll want to find out if the on-site outfit has a contract of exclusivity. If you want to be in business you don't want to make business mistakes of stepping on a contract. If there is no contract guaranteeing exclusivity then you're good to go. If there is - then respect it. Take your photos and use them in your bid to win the contract. That's the business side of sports photography. You don't want a bad reputation or your business will be short lived.

JBHotShots · October 6, 2010

johng wrote: »

Here's some other advice - contact the promoter and let them know what you're doing. You'll want to find out if the on-site outfit has a contract of exclusivity. If you want to be in business you don't want to make business mistakes of stepping on a contract. If there is no contract guaranteeing exclusivity then you're good to go. If there is - then respect it. Take your photos and use them in your bid to win the contract. That's the business side of sports photography. You don't want a bad reputation or your business will be short lived.

There is no contract in place. The other guy has just gone for a few years and he is welcome back. The track is where I started taking pictures and the owners/promoters have already given me a green light with a warm welcome. I like the fact that they let other photogs there because I like competion hence why I feel a need to offer something he doesn't. His work is strictly at the track and when he packs up to go to next race whever that may be, he gets rid of the pictures; he doesn't even have a website.

JBHotShots · October 6, 2010

On a side note, this is also a case of a photographer that does this for a living, the on site printer, and one that does this for extra income. It shouldn't make a if difference because I want to make some money too.

RacinRandy · October 7, 2010

Try something like this?
Why not try doing a single "Event Photo"? Make up a Back Ground or Frame with the event name with a replaceable photo in it. something like this

Pre-make a few for samples in 8x 10 and 11x14 and wander around getting orders. You can get them printed at the local Wal-mart and have them for them Next day. I do this Here in my area for all of the season ending Races that I am attending and it works quite well. 8x10's for $10 11x14 for $15. I give them a deal on 3 11x14's for $35 also, I still make money without seeming greedy. Racers aren't as Rich as people think and a lot of the time photos are an after thought.

The Car Pictured here is the same Darrell Nelson you have in your Gallery from the 9th annual race. Strong Runner, Heck of a nice guy and just recently added a new son to the Family!

A side note, I think I have met you before even though I am from Northern Minnesota. I was at the USMTS Race at Houston in Dec of 2008 with Ryan Aho. We were Pitted right next to Nelson there. Ryan was running the 33Money modified that winter. It was Dang cold for Southern Texas that weekend too!!

JBHotShots · October 7, 2010

RacinRandy wrote: »

Why not try doing a single "Event Photo"? Make up a Back Ground or Frame with the event name with a replaceable photo in it. something like this

Pre-make a few for samples in 8x 10 and 11x14 and wander around getting orders. You can get them printed at the local Wal-mart and have them for them Next day. I do this Here in my area for all of the season ending Races that I am attending and it works quite well. 8x10's for $10 11x14 for $15. I give them a deal on 3 11x14's for $35 also, I still make money without seeming greedy. Racers aren't as Rich as people think and a lot of the time photos are an after thought.

The Car Pictured here is the same Darrell Nelson you have in your Gallery from the 9th annual race. Strong Runner, Heck of a nice guy and just recently added a new son to the Family!

A side note, I think I have met you before even though I am from Northern Minnesota. I was at the USMTS Race at Houston in Dec of 2008 with Ryan Aho. We were Pitted right next to Nelson there. Ryan was running the 33Money modified that winter. It was Dang cold for Southern Texas that weekend too!!

Yeah, I had thought of that. The ONLY problem with that is the on-site guys does a lot of those. Apparently it seems as if I am in the wrong trying to sell pictures at this race and taking business from the other guy. I don't see it that way, but I want to offer something that he isn't.

I was at the '08 HRP race in December and it was cold as all get out; you are right about that. Forgive me if I don't remember you as I met a lot of people in a very short amount of time that year. If you remember me, hopefully that is a good thing and I left a positive about me with you...

Is Darrell going to be at either race this year? They have moved the HRP race to late November this year.

beetle8 · October 7, 2010

LouDoggsRuca wrote: »

On a side note, this is also a case of a photographer that does this for a living, the on site printer, and one that does this for extra income. It shouldn't make a if difference because I want to make some money too.

Is this whole thread a joke?

This is a case of a photographer who does this for a living, that doesn't matter because I want to make some money too.

This whole thread is like some kind of bad GWC story but from the other side.

johng · October 7, 2010

Keith,

I'm not sure what your point is per se. The full time photographer does not have a contract. Arguably said photographer isn't producing great work. I've seen a lot of that - just because a person owns a studio doesn't mean they can shoot sports. So, if the OP isn't doing anything unethical and isn't undercutting the industry by providing goods/services "on the cheap" then I fail to see the issue. Nobody owes the full time photog a living. If he/she isn't producing a quality product, and doesn't have a contract there's no reason in the world why another shooter shouldn't try to capture that business. The only time there's a problem is when the 'new guy' is giving away photos or slashing prices to a level real professionals can't compete with because the new guy is doing it just for fun or for a couple extra bucks. But if the new guy can produce a product/service of a quality the 'pro' doesn't match at a price that isn't cut-rate, then I have no problem with it.

JBHotShots · October 7, 2010

beetle8 wrote: »

Is this whole thread a joke?

This is a case of a photographer who does this for a living, that doesn't matter because I want to make some money too.

This whole thread is like some kind of bad GWC story but from the other side.

Maybe it's the way I'm wording this, but it's anything but a joke. I apologize to all that have taken it as such.

mercphoto · October 7, 2010

johng wrote: »

But if the new guy can produce a product/service of a quality the 'pro' doesn't match at a price that isn't cut-rate, then I have no problem with it.

Agreed, and I don't think the OP is trying to be a cut-rate guy. But back to the original question of how to compete with on-site printing I have never figured that out and I've made a decision to not even attempt it anymore. I can afford to do this because I also don't make a living from this, so refusing to do some events is not a biggie to me.

beetle8 · October 7, 2010

sorry,

carry on,

RacinRandy · October 7, 2010

LouDoggsRuca wrote: »

Is Darrell going to be at either race this year? They have moved the HRP race to late November this year.

I don't think Darrell is going to be doing to much traveling this winter. It will depend a lot on his Sponsors and what his wife has to say. He has a new two month old son at home now and is currently healing from some unfortunate non-racing injuries.

At my local tracks there are usually two or more photogs at every race. All have a product to sell and most of us are doing it for "Extra Money". Most everyone of us know each other as is inevitable in working with and around each other often. We all have varying styles of shooting and concepts on format for event photos. Everyone has a place, sometimes you just gotta work a bit harder to get it.

I went to one event this summer that Had 9 Photographers there!! Everyone had something to offer and some drivers would have as many as 5 photogs at once talking to them. So I took a different approach that worked fairly well. A friend had a "Shirt Shack" and was selling event shirts and different team shirts and "Gotta Race" apparel out of his vending Trailer. I made up a few prints with different cars in them and he hung them for sale with order forms and contact info. The "Samples" sold and I took away 59 orders and got many email and snail mail orders as well. It has also created an increase in traffic on my smugmug. just something that worked for me..

Good Luck, If i get back down that way again I'll make sure to Shake your hand and make myself more memorable!!

JBHotShots · October 8, 2010

RacinRandy wrote: »

I don't think Darrell is going to be doing to much traveling this winter. It will depend a lot on his Sponsors and what his wife has to say. He has a new two month old son at home now and is currently healing from some unfortunate non-racing injuries.

At my local tracks there are usually two or more photogs at every race. All have a product to sell and most of us are doing it for "Extra Money". Most everyone of us know each other as is inevitable in working with and around each other often. We all have varying styles of shooting and concepts on format for event photos. Everyone has a place, sometimes you just gotta work a bit harder to get it.

I went to one event this summer that Had 9 Photographers there!! Everyone had something to offer and some drivers would have as many as 5 photogs at once talking to them. So I took a different approach that worked fairly well. A friend had a "Shirt Shack" and was selling event shirts and different team shirts and "Gotta Race" apparel out of his vending Trailer. I made up a few prints with different cars in them and he hung them for sale with order forms and contact info. The "Samples" sold and I took away 59 orders and got many email and snail mail orders as well. It has also created an increase in traffic on my smugmug. just something that worked for me..

Good Luck, If i get back down that way again I'll make sure to Shake your hand and make myself more memorable!!

That's an awesome idea!! Thanks!! If you make it back down here, I'll take a picture for the memory...

RacinRandy · October 22, 2010

LouDoggsRuca wrote: »

That's an awesome idea!! Thanks!! If you make it back down here, I'll take a picture for the memory...

I'm assuming your going to be in Las Crusas for the November race again???
Sounds like I may be there as well, Doing some Photography work and Video...

I'll look for you if I Come down

digger2 · October 25, 2010

This harks back to the days of proofing my wedding shots at the reception. When we stopped doing that, I was worried that if they did not buy on the night then they would not buy at all! Wrong!
What does the onsite printer have to offer apart from the obvious? Quality? Pricing being competitive?
Sell it from another aspect, you do not have to stop preping your car to run over and find your picture, you do not have to care for the picture at the track, make sure it keeps clean etc. Much nicer to view the offerings on line from the comfort of your own home where you can select a variety of shots or sizes. Maybe even a framed shot and all delivered sfely to your home. How about a price leader for the cars sponsors? 5x4 sent directly to them?

JBHotShots · October 26, 2010

digger2 wrote: »

This harks back to the days of proofing my wedding shots at the reception. When we stopped doing that, I was worried that if they did not buy on the night then they would not buy at all! Wrong!
What does the onsite printer have to offer apart from the obvious? Quality? Pricing being competitive?
Sell it from another aspect, you do not have to stop preping your car to run over and find your picture, you do not have to care for the picture at the track, make sure it keeps clean etc. Much nicer to view the offerings on line from the comfort of your own home where you can select a variety of shots or sizes. Maybe even a framed shot and all delivered sfely to your home. How about a price leader for the cars sponsors? 5x4 sent directly to them?

After some time to think about this, you've pretty much nailed it. All I'm going to do is stick to the Facebook marketing and handing out my cards to all of the drivers at the track. History has proved there that the convience of him printing on site has served him well. Who knows, maybe this time it will be a little different.

mercphoto · October 27, 2010

LouDoggsRuca wrote: »

After some time to think about this, you've pretty much nailed it. All I'm going to do is stick to the Facebook marketing and handing out my cards to all of the drivers at the track. History has proved there that the convience of him printing on site has served him well. Who knows, maybe this time it will be a little different.

Wedding photography purchase and racing photography purchases are two very different animals. On site sales of impulse-buying not-really-necessary photos like racing does make a difference. So much so that I won't waste my time trying to compete against on-site sales myself.

Glort · October 28, 2010

It sounds to me you are trying a little too hard to be different to the other guy.

Just because he does something dosen't mean you can't do it and do it better. You said his work wasn't great, if you can do better then your already different. I recently did an event where there was another shooter doing on site as well and his van and tent had a somewhat better presence than mine. I thought we would have a lot of trouble selling anything but as it was, people tended to go look at his stuff first then come to us and made comment they liked our shots much better and they bought.

We did have a wider choice of products but also many similar.
I think we both learnt a bit off each other . I have had a heap of signs printed so as to give myself a better presence and i think he took a few ideas from what we offered to incorporate into his offerings.

Is there a reason why you can't do onsite printing? If there is someone you can get to help you, that's what I would be doing for sure. Onsite is a very powerful motivator and just because the other guy does it is no reason you shouldn't. People can buy online or onsite. If you offer both then you are catering to the whole market not just half. It's likley that one may feed the other anyway.

I think the poster idea was great as well. You shouldn't avoid that just because the other guy does it. make up your own posterS and offer the drivers a choice of layouts and designs.

I do onsite and offer different Borders and mag covers and they all go well. We offer a couple of each and sales overall went up when we offered a choice rather than one of each. It's a bit like you can pitch it as "Which one do you want?" rather than "Do you want one?"

I'm very much in 2 minds about online sales but I would suggest that you go hard ( if possible) on both. Although I'm usually in front of more or less the same crowd, I'm now really trying to drive and market the pics with offers and packages.

As we always get slammed at the end of any event and have a trickle of people through the day ( even if they have finished their competition early) I have introduced " Early bird Specials" which give the people a Premium Print ( bordered) for the price of a straight print BEFORE 2PM and if they order a medium or large CD ( image QTY) they also get a print or bordered print with it.

As well as that I have also introduced some packages designed to up the average order value. As material costs are basically nothing, the higher average Sale value I can get out of the limited audience, the better off I am.

I would push something like this on flyers and make sure everyone got them and let them know they are available next day at very least for the Saturday if you can't/ won't do on site and also push the online.

Don't undercut the other guy, just offer better value.
If he is charging $30 for a print and you are charging the same, Offer 2 prints and a CD worth $50 for $100 all up or something to that effect.

On CD's, that is a tough one.
When i have done racing we offered images on an individual car basis and we had no problem getting enough images or selling them.
I start my CDs at $50 For UP TO 5 images and they always go OK.
As horrified as some will no doubt be, they are pretty much files straight from the camera.

Putting images from an entire class on one disk sounds like a way tto cut your own throat on sales to me. Once people discover they got their pics and their buddies, they won't be as inclined to buy a disk each.

And get some big signs done.
I just had the office supply place print out some AO size prints and had them laminated than bought an eyelet kit at the camping place and put then in so i can suspend the signs off the side of my trailer, tent a building or a tree.
If you make it look like you are the more serious shooter and present yourself better, that's how you will be perceived.

JBHotShots · October 28, 2010

Glort wrote: »

It sounds to me you are trying a little too hard to be different to the other guy.

Just because he does something dosen't mean you can't do it and do it better. You said his work wasn't great, if you can do better then your already different. I recently did an event where there was another shooter doing on site as well and his van and tent had a somewhat better presence than mine. I thought we would have a lot of trouble selling anything but as it was, people tended to go look at his stuff first then come to us and made comment they liked our shots much better and they bought.

We did have a wider choice of products but also many similar.
I think we both learnt a bit off each other . I have had a heap of signs printed so as to give myself a better presence and i think he took a few ideas from what we offered to incorporate into his offerings.

Is there a reason why you can't do onsite printing? If there is someone you can get to help you, that's what I would be doing for sure. Onsite is a very powerful motivator and just because the other guy does it is no reason you shouldn't. People can buy online or onsite. If you offer both then you are catering to the whole market not just half. It's likley that one may feed the other anyway.

I think the poster idea was great as well. You shouldn't avoid that just because the other guy does it. make up your own posterS and offer the drivers a choice of layouts and designs.

I do onsite and offer different Borders and mag covers and they all go well. We offer a couple of each and sales overall went up when we offered a choice rather than one of each. It's a bit like you can pitch it as "Which one do you want?" rather than "Do you want one?"

I'm very much in 2 minds about online sales but I would suggest that you go hard ( if possible) on both. Although I'm usually in front of more or less the same crowd, I'm now really trying to drive and market the pics with offers and packages.

As we always get slammed at the end of any event and have a trickle of people through the day ( even if they have finished their competition early) I have introduced " Early bird Specials" which give the people a Premium Print ( bordered) for the price of a straight print BEFORE 2PM and if they order a medium or large CD ( image QTY) they also get a print or bordered print with it.

As well as that I have also introduced some packages designed to up the average order value. As material costs are basically nothing, the higher average Sale value I can get out of the limited audience, the better off I am.

I would push something like this on flyers and make sure everyone got them and let them know they are available next day at very least for the Saturday if you can't/ won't do on site and also push the online.

Don't undercut the other guy, just offer better value.
If he is charging $30 for a print and you are charging the same, Offer 2 prints and a CD worth $50 for $100 all up or something to that effect.

On CD's, that is a tough one.
When i have done racing we offered images on an individual car basis and we had no problem getting enough images or selling them.
I start my CDs at $50 For UP TO 5 images and they always go OK.
As horrified as some will no doubt be, they are pretty much files straight from the camera.

Putting images from an entire class on one disk sounds like a way tto cut your own throat on sales to me. Once people discover they got their pics and their buddies, they won't be as inclined to buy a disk each.

And get some big signs done.
I just had the office supply place print out some AO size prints and had them laminated than bought an eyelet kit at the camping place and put then in so i can suspend the signs off the side of my trailer, tent a building or a tree.
If you make it look like you are the more serious shooter and present yourself better, that's how you will be perceived.

Printing on site is pretty much out of the question. I'm going about 11hrs away and staying with a friend. He is doing the video taping of the race so he is of no help there. You mentioned a lot of fine ideas that I may be able to incorporate during my regular season shooting at my home track; thank you for the insite.

The event starts next week and runs all weekend. I call it a vacation because it gets me from the reality of the world and for three solid days it is nothing but photography and racing, which both run a close second and third of my most favortie things in life behind my family.

No matter what happens, I will be sure to post pictures here looking for C/C.

Glort · October 28, 2010

I just looked at your pics and see you do an amount of night shots.

This suggestion may help you be REAL different to the other guy.....
Some years ago i was doing drag racing. I never really liked the flat, boring lighting on camera flash gives.
I got an old metz hammer head and a Quantum radio slave and set them up on a tripod down the track from me. This gave a nice side or backlighting depending how I set it up and where I was shooting from.

It really made a big difference to the shots and made them far more interesting than the on camera flash shots. Later I adapted the idea a bit more and put in a second flash with a bit of colored cellophane on it to throw a colored back light. That really looked dramatic and the mag I was shooting for at the time loved them.
I see there is some guy recently doing the same thing and blowing his own trumpet big time about how clever he is for coming up with the idea,... about 7 years too late!

Anyway, all you need is a cheap old flash ( I like the metz units) a radio trigger ( don't use a slave, that will be set off by everything else.... Unless you can position it so it fires into the other shooters lens... just kidding...maybe...) and a stand or a grip if you can/ want to mount the thing on a fence or something.

For cheap long lasting battery power, for the last 20 years I have used those 7.2V racing car packs and Modified some old battery holders with the wire coming out the bottom. If you use old Nicad packs, connect to the terminals they use. If its a regular replaceable alkaline holder, use the OTHER terminals. One is for 7.2V input and the other is for 9V. You can't damage the unit if you use the wrong ones, the thing will just recycle a bit slower.

I just tape the packs to the back of the flash handle and leave them there but If you wanted to be able to remove them, just use some large elastics or Velcro tabs.

I would definitely try to get some of these pics out to the racers to show them the difference in what you are offering and encourage them to look at your work.
Myself, I'd be printing up business cards or flyers on an inkjet printer showing some of the pics ( do a variation for effect) to take back the 2nd day as well as some prints to put up wherever you can.

If you can use this sort of lighting setup to get some shots that really pop and look different to the other guy, you'll be well on your way to good sales right there.

I have also used this sort of lighting for doing Go karts. You can set one light up on a corner you can zoom onto for a dramatic shot but your flash, if on the camera, doesn't have the power to reach. Off camera is always better than on camera lighting anyway.

JBHotShots · October 29, 2010

Unfortunately in the pictures I take night/flash photography is going to be about 90% of what I do; as you saw from my site. I also have the problem of not being able to invest in such a set up as most of what I take pictures are, are TRUE amature racers. I duck and dodge a lot of cars, none too close yet, but not good enough to have a set up like what you are talking about. Again, I appreciate you throughing ideas out there for me. One thing I am definitely taking from this is BE DIFFERENT. I do have a mind to get some printed for the second day and try that but it might of some of the "support classes" as I don't think he takes pictures of them as much as the main class.

Glort · October 30, 2010

Perhaps you have a different idea to what I was trying to explain. I like to do things on the cheap as well where I can and you could do the set up I described for around $100.

This would be what you need:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Metz-45-CT-1-Flash-Blitz-/260681095733?pt=Digital_Camera_Flashes&hash=item3cb1cdda35

http://cgi.ebay.com/PT-04-CN-Wireless-Remote-Radio-Flash-Trigger-3-Receiver-/260618142769?pt=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item3cae0d4431

http://cgi.ebay.com/Venom-Racing-7-2V-2400mAh-Ni-MH-Battery-Pack-VNR1531-/360312792579?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e450e603

You don't need a TTL auto backside wiping whizzbang techno miracle flash, you just need something that punches out some light. I usually set mine manually to half or 1/4 power depending on how much ambiant light there is at the track i want to pick up and what the resulting ISO speed from that is. If you need to set an in between level, use a bit of writing paper over the head held on with a rubber band. I'm sure you can buy neater bits of plastic fantastic that do exactly the same job but like I said, I like cheap , especially when it works as well as exy!

If your doing so much night photography, being able to set your pictures apart from the other guys with different and better lighting would have the dual effect on getting you a fast return on your investment in the flash gear and also getting recognition and maybe as the sole shooter to the next event.

If you can stretch the budget to get something like I outlined, I'm sure you would recoup your outlay quite quickly. Start with one head then get another if you think it will help.
You could also just use your 480 with a radio trigger and mount that off camera for a much better look to the lighting which would only be the cost of a radio slave.

JBHotShots · October 30, 2010

Glort wrote: »

Perhaps you have a different idea to what I was trying to explain. I like to do things on the cheap as well where I can and you could do the set up I described for around $100.

This would be what you need:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Metz-45-CT-1-Flash-Blitz-/260681095733?pt=Digital_Camera_Flashes&hash=item3cb1cdda35

http://cgi.ebay.com/PT-04-CN-Wireless-Remote-Radio-Flash-Trigger-3-Receiver-/260618142769?pt=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item3cae0d4431

http://cgi.ebay.com/Venom-Racing-7-2V-2400mAh-Ni-MH-Battery-Pack-VNR1531-/360312792579?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e450e603

You don't need a TTL auto backside wiping whizzbang techno miracle flash, you just need something that punches out some light. I usually set mine manually to half or 1/4 power depending on how much ambiant light there is at the track i want to pick up and what the resulting ISO speed from that is. If you need to set an in between level, use a bit of writing paper over the head held on with a rubber band. I'm sure you can buy neater bits of plastic fantastic that do exactly the same job but like I said, I like cheap , especially when it works as well as exy! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >

If your doing so much night photography, being able to set your pictures apart from the other guys with different and better lighting would have the dual effect on getting you a fast return on your investment in the flash gear and also getting recognition and maybe as the sole shooter to the next event.

If you can stretch the budget to get something like I outlined, I'm sure you would recoup your outlay quite quickly. Start with one head then get another if you think it will help.
You could also just use your 480 with a radio trigger and mount that off camera for a much better look to the lighting which would only be the cost of a radio slave.

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/1drink.gif" border="0" alt="" ><---A couple of those may have inhibited what I was reading last night. What I'm reading now is actually pretty sweet. The only problem I have is where would I set them up at? I shoot from the infield and usually there is nothing but air and opportunity between me and the drivers. I'd hate to invest any amount of money into something just to have it run over.

Glort · October 30, 2010

LouDoggsRuca wrote: »

The only problem I have is where would I set them up at? I shoot from the infield and usually there is nothing but air and opportunity between me and the drivers. I'd hate to invest any amount of money into something just to have it run over.

I guess that's the risk you take... even with yourself!

I obviously don't know the tracks you shoot at or what is there. At the kart track I shoot at, there are a couple of light towers surrounded by tyres and barriers. I place the light stand just behind and to the side of one of those and I stand within a stride of the other one. A few times I have had errant karts come hurtling off towards me and all i have to do is take one step behind the light pole and i know I'm pretty safe. I have got some great, too close up shots of them coming off knowing there is something rals soling between them and me.
A few drivers have commented that I am very cool and calm when it looks like I'm about to be run over but it's more about thinking ahead, being very aware and knowing exactly where your escape route is.

I normally try and put the flashes where they will be behind or besides the drivers so as to minimize the flash hitting them in the face. I turn the flash on the stand up maybe one stop to get some separation light happening and then just use the camera on the flash as a fill light or put the other light further up where they won't be looking.

I guess you could see if there was anything on the infield you could put a light stand behind, even a medical vehicle or something so you do get some protection. I don't do oval racing but there must be something on the infield and you probably have an idea of where the most likley place for them to come unstuck is and can avoid that.

If you can access it, you may also be able to set the flash up on the outfield near a marshals position or in front of the spectator fence. Just check the range of the radio triggers but you should be ok.

ThatCanonGuy · October 30, 2010

If you decided to do CDs, I would never sell full res files. Ever. First of all, they can print as much as they want, without having to buy prints from you. And when they see them from their uncalibrated monitor/printer, the colors will all be wrong. They've never heard of calibration, so guess who gets blamed? Guess who won't be getting any more orders or recommendations from these clients? Yes, the photographer. I'm fine with selling little photos for FaceBook, but make it very clear that they are intended for the web and are not for printing. Otherwise, they'll try to print the tiny ones... hmm, they don't look very good... guess who gets blamed? Deja vu all over again.

Pre-make a few for samples in 8x 10 and 11x14 and wander around getting orders. You can get them printed at the local Wal-mart and have them for them Next day. I do this Here in my area for all of the season ending Races that I am attending and it works quite well. 8x10's for $10 11x14 for $15. I give them a deal on 3 11x14's for $35 also, I still make money without seeming greedy. Racers aren't as Rich as people think and a lot of the time photos are an after thought.

Umm... dude, it looks like you're charging too little. Yes, they may not be rich, but $10 for an 8x10? I've never sold my photos, but I'm thinking a minimum of $30 per 8x10. I know, you're fine with $10 and they're fine, but you may be hurting the industry. Like I said, I've never sold my photos, so forgive me if I'm wrong...

JBHotShots · October 31, 2010

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

Umm... dude, it looks like you're charging too little. Yes, they may not be rich, but $10 for an 8x10? I've never sold my photos, but I'm thinking a minimum of $30 per 8x10. I know, you're fine with $10 and they're fine, but you may be hurting the industry. Like I said, I've never sold my photos, so forgive me if I'm wrong...

You are right, I probably could sell A picture for those prices, but rest assured that I wouldn't make another sale to that customer again. I've thought about it over and over again and I would rather make 50 sales to one customer at $10 for an 8x10 than one sale of $30. I get more repeat customers that spend more multiple times than I get single purchasers. I believe demigraphics and location dictate prices, not the photographer. I've found "the sweet spot" with my prices that keeps them coming back. Will it work in NY or CA, no probably not.

Glort · November 1, 2010

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

If you decided to do CDs, I would never sell full res files. Ever. First of all, they can print as much as they want, without having to buy prints from you. And when they see them from their uncalibrated monitor/printer, the colors will all be wrong. They've never heard of calibration, so guess who gets blamed? Guess who won't be getting any more orders or recommendations from these clients? Yes, the photographer. I'm fine with selling little photos for FaceBook, but make it very clear that they are intended for the web and are not for printing. Otherwise, they'll try to print the tiny ones... hmm, they don't look very good... guess who gets blamed? Deja vu all over again.

I Completely Disagree and put this down to another of the misguided Photo Folk Lore's that sound good on forums but don't bear out in practice.

I think you have an infinitely higher chance of burning a customer by giving them a web size image, no matter what you tell them it is or isn't suitable for, and them trying to print it and it looks like crap than giving them a full size image they can do what they like with.

Full res, straight out of the camera image CD's account for over 50% of my sales and I make damn good money from them. I sell them to the same people over and over and these people tend to be a bit more savvy than the average bear with photos that's why they buy image files and not prints.

I don't give a damn if they print them over and over, I can remember twice in the last 18 months I have sold more than one copy of the same print. Any reprint sales I am therefore loosing, no where near compares to the amount of money i would loose by selling web size images nor the resulting dis satisfaction that would cause no matter what I told the clients.

One of my best clients always buys a CD and at least one print there from and has a bigger bag of camera gear than I do! My wife looked up our books a couple of months ago and worked out back then this guy had spent just over $1000 with us this season alone. I don't care if he prints enough images from the disks to wall paper his house inside and out!

I try to promote the fact they can print from the CD's, email them to granny and put them on slide shows in 15 years time for their 21st birthday and generally add as much value to the sale as I can.
You don't get your cake and eat it too so I do the best i can with the slice I'm given and am plenty content.

I have heard of a couple of competitors over the last few months that I'm sure must read forums and take these sorts of suggestions on board. They charge ridiculous prices for useless images and they have become quite infamous in the market I am in for charging too much for too little. I was contacted a couple of weeks ago to do an event on a weekend i was booked up for and mentioned another shooter because I knew he was in the area of the gig. The organizer straight away told me, he wants too much and gives too little, you can't do anything with the images he puts on his disks.

People WANT to be able to print the pics out and when they get some web size image for $50 that looks like crap, they get upset at that but I have never had a problem with my full res files that actually look brilliant.Perhaps other people's experience is different but all the time I read the theory but never any practical accounts of shooters getting these complaints. My experience going back 10 years in a variety of markets in no way bears this out and I have yet to read of people saying clients come back and complain.

The trouble with a lot of this advise is that photographers look at it from a Photographers POV but we are not the clients or have the same perception of things. However " Out" my unedited shots are, they are probably 10 times better than what the client produces themselves. I do custom white balances several times a day to get the colors as close as I can for MY benefit but obviously this benefits the clients buying Cd's as well. In any case, even if I shoot auto white balance, the colour correction on a modern digicam is so good these days it's going to be more than acceptable to a non critical eye, IE, the paying client.
Aside from that, I shoot .jpgs which are automatically corrected in the camera to make a presentable image so the whole basis of images straight out of the camera looking crap is just plain unfounded.

I have yet to have a SINGLE complaint about any images I have sold on disk save for a couple when our burner went kaput and people got a disk with nothing at all. No one has ever told me they werent happy with the images on their CD. They can see heaps of our display prints in our trailer, there are plenty of people running round with them at the events and if their monitors are uncalibrated or whatever, my clients who thankfully seem to have half a brain can work out for themselves where the problem lies. If someone ever does complain, i'll simply print them a pic and educate them. The thing is though this hasn't been a problem so far so I'm not going to make it an issue where one doesn't exist.

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