Umm... dude, it looks like you're charging too little. Yes, they may not be rich, but $10 for an 8x10? I've never sold my photos, but I'm thinking a minimum of $30 per 8x10. I know, you're fine with $10 and they're fine, but you may be hurting the industry. Like I said, I've never sold my photos, so forgive me if I'm wrong...
I also believe you are charging way too little if this is your price structure as well.
Your saying you don't have money to invest in something that would benefit your pics and then demonstrating exactly why!
Sorry, but $10 for an 8x10 would be a joke if as already said, it wasn't hurting the industry.
You are right, I probably could sell A picture for those prices, but rest assured that I wouldn't make another sale to that customer again.
I don't believe this for a minute.
The rule of thumb with this sort of work is the higher the cost of entry, the less price conscious they are.
These people have tens of thousands tied up in this and your saying they won't pay the price of a lunch from the the burger stand for them and a mate on a photo or maybe a filter or a race entry fee?
Many would probably spend hundreds in fuel alone to get there and what they burn on the track let alone the over all cost of playing the game.
-If- cost is an issue, the problem is not your pricing, it's your marketing.
On the pricing score, you have already undermined the price assertion.
Your looking to price your CD, which despite the opinion of photographers, seem to hold a lesser value to the public than prints, at $50... 5 times the cost of your 8x10. If you say yeah, they are getting more though, then the question is not of price but of product.
You have already shown that in your belief that it's not the $ they can't afford, it's what they will pay those $ for.
You also said that your pics are better than the guy doing onsite printing so why wouldn't people pay for better pics at a higher price? Photographers seem to be great at asserting consumer behaviour without actually testing it one bit. put the shoe on your own foot. Why did you buy that L lens instead of paying 1/3 of the price for a cheaper one?
Because you wanted the best/ what it could do for you/ the satisfaction of owning it....
I'll bet the racers buy the best the best parts they can afford because they are better and not the least consideration is bragging rights.
Give them the right pics and $20 is not going to be a make or break.
What ever you do though, don't assume you know what people are going to do till you test it and test if fairly and repeatedly.
You need to build the value into your product and if your competitor is cutting his own throat as well with undervalued pricing, then it comes back to offering something different they can't get from him and building the value into it.
Be prepared for the argument, find out what costs $30 that the racers go though as an incidental and feed that back.
" For the price of the tear offs you throw away on the track, you can have a print to show your grand kids and relive your experience of the event for ever."
" For 1/10th of the price of a single tyre that lasts 3 races, you can have a memory that lasts forever."
Yeah, you can do a lot better than that but you get the point.
I've thought about it over and over again and I would rather make 50 sales to one customer at $10 for an 8x10 than one sale of $30.
Why?
That makes little if any financial sense.
It will probably take you 5-6 sales @ $10 to make the same amount of profit from 1 $30 sale when you cost it out properly.
There are a limited amount drivers and fans at any event so your marketing should be directed to getting the most from each sale, not volume sales.
The notion of 50 or 10 repeat sales to each client in my experience is also flawed. Unless you get some really one off pics, they don't tend to buy heaps of shots of their cars that basically look the same unless the car changes. If they do and your prices are higher, they will somply cut the amount of pics they buy to the same budget as what they would have spent on multiple prints.
There is no benefit to you in higher numbers of print sales, it's more work and effort. What you are chasing is getting the maximum of $ from every event you do and chasing volume is not the right tact to take in this instance.
Compounding this, they will probably travel and get to see pics from a whole load of different shooters so the amount of prints they buy from any one is not going to be high at all.
I get more repeat customers that spend more multiple times than I get single purchasers.
You are getting repeat customers that have a very low individual value that could easily be exchanged for clients that buy repeatedly but at higher individual values.
Have you actually qualified your pricing in REAL terms by charging a Higher price than what you are now and offered similar levels of quality in your photographs? It's no use saying "I tried charging $20 a print when I first started out 12 months ago and didn't know what I do now or have the recognition with the drivers or take the same type of pics" you have to keep things on an even keel and TEST your market.
You need to put YOUR fears and beliefs on the line and try something new and see how it goes. I know it's hard, I also know it works but sometimes I get into my comfort zone as well and don't want to move. I just remind myself the risk i'm taking ( might lose a few sales on one event
This is different to my experience and I'd be interested to qualify that in real terms to understand things fully.
To put this in numbers, what sort of time frame are we talking about in how long you have been doing this, how many sales would you average per meeting and how many of those sales would be to the repeat clients?
Are your competitors charging the same or similar to you or are they at a different level?
Maybe things where you are vary to what I have seen here and if that is the case it would be helpful for me to understand. If you could put some real numbers on that i'd be happy to stand corrected for the benefit of learning.
I believe demigraphics and location dictate prices, not the photographer. I've found "the sweet spot" with my prices that keeps them coming back. Will it work in NY or CA, no probably not.
I don't think the main demographic is the sport itself.
Parts, fuel, tyres and expenses generally I believe will be the same all over.
What variance there is probably is only going to be a small percentage of the cost of playing the game over all and where they are higher the field has probably leveled itself out to those that can afford to play at that level and weeded out the ones that can't.
I found motor sports a very tough game to make a quid from and didn't do it long. My encounter was the base demographic was not an ideal target market , ( middle age men) there was too much competition from people giving their pictures away as a means to access parts of the track they wouldn't be able to get to normally and avoid entrance fees and that the drivers didn't have a lot of reason to regularly buy pictures.
As I was dragging my sorry butt out to the tracks because I wanted to make a profit, not because I wanted to be there, I went and found a better more profitable sand pit to play in and established myself in that. Competition is less ( but admittedly growing) the market demographic is far better, (kids and girls from above average income families) the price of admission is right up there and there is reason for the people to buy at every event.
If your in it for the $$, I would suggest you need to look at what your doing very carefully and if $10 an 8x10 really is all you can get after you have tested the market properly, then look at something that has better base potential.
If your in it primarily because you like being around the sport, thats cool, but realize your always going to be struggling with the issues you have now and never going to make enough out of it to afford the gear you want or the satisfaction out of it you seem to be really craving which is the same as most of us i think.
If you decided to do CDs, I would never sell full res files. Ever. First of all, they can print as much as they want, without having to buy prints from you... Like I said, I've never sold my photos, so forgive me if I'm wrong...
Using a portrait and wedding pricing strategy for racing..... Not. Gonna. Work.
I also believe you are charging way too little if this is your price structure as well.
Point taken. Pricing seems to be a touchy subject.
Your saying you don't have money to invest in something that would benefit your pics and then demonstrating exactly why!
I never said I didn't have the money. I said I'd find it hard pressed to invest in even a simple setup such as what you mention just to keep having to replace over and over again. That to me doesn't make any sense.
Sorry, but $10 for an 8x10 would be a joke if as already said, it wasn't hurting the industry.
Point taken again, see above.
I don't believe this for a minute.
The rule of thumb with this sort of work is the higher the cost of entry, the less price conscious they are.
These people have tens of thousands tied up in this and your saying they won't pay the price of a lunch from the the burger stand for them and a mate on a photo or maybe a filter or a race entry fee?
From what I have seen and through experience is that usually my target audience spends what little money they have leftover into getting the quality parts they need to compete. Most of, not all, but most of them work a lot of extra hours just to make sure they can flip the bill for the hobby they love. Very rarely are they backed by big $$$ sponsors that help cover they costs. As a matter of fact, most racers go in the red every year doing what they do.
Many would probably spend hundreds in fuel alone to get there and what they burn on the track let alone the over all cost of playing the game.
-If- cost is an issue, the problem is not your pricing, it's your marketing.
I don't believe there is any problem. I do this for the love of racing and photography. To each his own.
On the pricing score, you have already undermined the price assertion.
Your looking to price your CD, which despite the opinion of photographers, seem to hold a lesser value to the public than prints, at $50... 5 times the cost of your 8x10. If you say yeah, they are getting more though, then the question is not of price but of product.
You have already shown that in your belief that it's not the $ they can't afford, it's what they will pay those $ for.
Give the hand that I am delt with bad, worse than bad, lighting, dust and beat up cars, just to name a few; I believe my work would stand up to most of the photographers that are in the same genre. Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, I just believe that my work is pretty solid but I am always trying to find ways to improve.
You also said that your pics are better than the guy doing onsite printing so why wouldn't people pay for better pics at a higher price? Photographers seem to be great at asserting consumer behaviour without actually testing it one bit. put the shoe on your own foot. Why did you buy that L lens instead of paying 1/3 of the price for a cheaper one?
Because you wanted the best/ what it could do for you/ the satisfaction of owning it....
Again, racers have money tied up elsewhere. I would rather sell at my price and them spend money on parts just so they can show up every race they can. What good is it if they spend whatever little extra money on pictures if they can be on the track for me to take them? I got the L lenses out of necessity. I spent the money on the 1/3 less lens and didn't sell one picture. Once I was able to get better quality, people started looking, buying and talking.
I'll bet the racers buy the best the best parts they can afford because they are better and not the least consideration is bragging rights.
Give them the right pics and $20 is not going to be a make or break.
What ever you do though, don't assume you know what people are going to do till you test it and test if fairly and repeatedly.
Which they should buy the best for their cars. They are competitive by nature and sometimes that's what it takes, even though it may not be the right answer. Again, I stand behind my work now and trying to make it even better.
You need to build the value into your product and if your competitor is cutting his own throat as well with undervalued pricing, then it comes back to offering something different they can't get from him and building the value into it.
The quality is there, the impulse purchasing is what I can't compete with.
Be prepared for the argument, find out what costs $30 that the racers go though as an incidental and feed that back.
" For the price of the tear offs you throw away on the track, you can have a print to show your grand kids and relive your experience of the event for ever."
I'm already on that. Fortunately for me, my best friend is a race car driver and I'm always asking him; "What makes you buy pictures?" He lives nowhere near me so being blount is the only way I get it. FWIW-having the pictures right there for him to hold and see is what gets him to buy.
" For 1/10th of the price of a single tyre that lasts 3 races, you can have a memory that lasts forever."
Yeah, you can do a lot better than that but you get the point.
Why?
That makes little if any financial sense.
It will probably take you 5-6 sales @ $10 to make the same amount of profit from 1 $30 sale when you cost it out properly.
There are a limited amount drivers and fans at any event so your marketing should be directed to getting the most from each sale, not volume sales.
The notion of 50 or 10 repeat sales to each client in my experience is also flawed. Unless you get some really one off pics, they don't tend to buy heaps of shots of their cars that basically look the same unless the car changes. If they do and your prices are higher, they will somply cut the amount of pics they buy to the same budget as what they would have spent on multiple prints.
There is no benefit to you in higher numbers of print sales, it's more work and effort. What you are chasing is getting the maximum of $ from every event you do and chasing volume is not the right tact to take in this instance.
Racers and fans are there from 6-8 months out of the year. I'll agree with one thing, I'll sell more when they get a new wrap/paint job/car or when they win. My loyal customers that are "die hard" collectors will buy no matter what. I had one customer purchase every week from me except one. If my prices were higher would that have happened, probably not.
Compounding this, they will probably travel and get to see pics from a whole load of different shooters so the amount of prints they buy from any one is not going to be high at all.
Rarely, and I mean rarely, is there more than just me taking pictures on any given night. Even when there were multiple, four to be exact, I still had sales; from out of state even. It's not like Indy or Daytona, this is just "some good ol boy" racing.
You are getting repeat customers that have a very low individual value that could easily be exchanged for clients that buy repeatedly but at higher individual values.
Clients that would spend say $30 on an 8x10 are very far and few between where I am at.
Have you actually qualified your pricing in REAL terms by charging a Higher price than what you are now and offered similar levels of quality in your photographs? It's no use saying "I tried charging $20 a print when I first started out 12 months ago and didn't know what I do now or have the recognition with the drivers or take the same type of pics" you have to keep things on an even keel and TEST your market.
I can honestly say no. When I first started where I am now, I caught HELL for my pricing and they way I sell. They couldn't believe that I was selling for "that high". Now with that said, I have done a lot of reading and whatnot to introduce a different price list. It still won't be $30 for an 8x10 but it's going to be more. I am expecting there will be less sales at first, if not for longer, but I do see where I need to start thinking about things I didn't have to, or just didn't, think about before.
You need to put YOUR fears and beliefs on the line and try something new and see how it goes. I know it's hard, I also know it works but sometimes I get into my comfort zone as well and don't want to move. I just remind myself the risk i'm taking ( might lose a few sales on one event
See above.
This is different to my experience and I'd be interested to qualify that in real terms to understand things fully.
To put this in numbers, what sort of time frame are we talking about in how long you have been doing this, how many sales would you average per meeting and how many of those sales would be to the repeat clients?
Are your competitors charging the same or similar to you or are they at a different level?
My prices are not any less than any other track photographers in the state from what I have been able to find.
Maybe things where you are vary to what I have seen here and if that is the case it would be helpful for me to understand. If you could put some real numbers on that i'd be happy to stand corrected for the benefit of learning.
I'm not exactly sure of what you are asking here?
I don't think the main demographic is the sport itself.
Parts, fuel, tyres and expenses generally I believe will be the same all over.
What variance there is probably is only going to be a small percentage of the cost of playing the game over all and where they are higher the field has probably leveled itself out to those that can afford to play at that level and weeded out the ones that can't.
You are just going to have to trust me on this one; it's apples to oranges.
I found motor sports a very tough game to make a quid from and didn't do it long. My encounter was the base demographic was not an ideal target market , ( middle age men) there was too much competition from people giving their pictures away as a means to access parts of the track they wouldn't be able to get to normally and avoid entrance fees and that the drivers didn't have a lot of reason to regularly buy pictures.
Did you ever consider the wives, girlfriends, mother and fathers? Again, where I'm located they make up a large percentage of my sales but with the same rules as the drivers; hard working, under paid people that love their sport.
As I was dragging my sorry butt out to the tracks because I wanted to make a profit, not because I wanted to be there,
I LOVE it there, makes a huge difference.
I went and found a better more profitable sand pit to play in and established myself in that. Competition is less ( but admittedly growing) the market demographic is far better, (kids and girls from above average income families) the price of admission is right up there and there is reason for the people to buy at every event.
To me you adapted and overcame, kudos to you. You saw your numbers and figured out a way to make them better.
If your in it for the $$, I would suggest you need to look at what your doing very carefully and if $10 an 8x10 really is all you can get after you have tested the market properly, then look at something that has better base potential.
Unfortunately, I have no desire to photograph much else. That said, see above and then I'll probably go by the wayside just as others have.
If your in it primarily because you like being around the sport, thats cool, but realize your always going to be struggling with the issues you have now and never going to make enough out of it to afford the gear you want or the satisfaction out of it you seem to be really craving which is the same as most of us i think.
I do love being around the sport. I get plenty of satisfaction out of what I do. When a customer comes to me and says; "Jamie, I got my pictures last week and they are BADA$$!" What more could I ask for. BTW, this seems to happen quite frequently. I've narrowed it down to this, either I'm doing something right or the previous photogs were just that bad...
I really don't want this to sound brash or anything like that; so please don't take any of my answers that way.
This is what I do; I go to work in the AM, any chance I get I read and try to learn as much as possible about photography and cameras ect without pissing my coworkers off. I come home, tend to my duties as a husband, father and homeowner and then I sit in front of the computer reading and learning as much as I can before raceday. When I get to the track, I try to execute to the best of my ability and then I critique my self. Customers will usually say nice things regardless so I have to be really hard on myself. Honestly I believe, as stated before, that I've done well with tons of room for improvement.
Sounds like you're working this thorugh Jamie. Good luck with it. And I agree with one major point of yours. Racing might be an expensive hobby, but that doesn't mean these people have tons of disposable income for photos. Price it too high and they simply won't buy.
Sounds like you're working this thorugh Jamie. Good luck with it. And I agree with one major point of yours. Racing might be an expensive hobby, but that doesn't mean these people have tons of disposable income for photos. Price it too high and they simply won't buy.
Bill, You are experienced in this sport in a closer area than I am, what do you think is a reasonable price to sell an 8x10 print for example at?
Clearly I am looking at things from a different perspective to you.
I would do it purely to make money, you'd pay to do it.
That changes pretty much everything.
I'm not for a second saying I think the racers have wads of cash falling out of their pockets, I do understand the demographic of all non top level motor sports that don't have sponsorship backing. Overall I'd say it's a pretty poor mans game.
That said, I don't believe these people are also walking around with their last $20 or $30 in their pocket.
It is all proportional. $30 won't buy a set of spark plugs so it is an amount of money that is more of an incidental purchase rather than the decider of whether they get a part or not.
As I said, this would represent lunch for them and a mate at the track. I doubt any of them will go hungry so they can buy a part. You have to put things into perspective be it $10, 20 or 30. 10 is definitely too low if you are going to charge at all but clearly your in it for the enjoyment not the money which makes a lot of what I have said irrelevant. :lol
In any event, increasing your prices any amount will be a good thing for you. It will be interesting to hear what sort of price levels Bill suggests based on his experience.
Bill, You are experienced in this sport in a closer area than I am, what do you think is a reasonable price to sell an 8x10 print for example at?
That's hard for me to say because 90% of my sales have been digital files or CD's. The few paper prints have been 12x18 or higher and have been collages, not photos. I have not sold a single 8x12 or smaller paper print this year.
Clearly I am looking at things from a different perspective to you.
I would do it purely to make money, you'd pay to do it.
That changes pretty much everything.
I'm not for a second saying I think the racers have wads of cash falling out of their pockets, I do understand the demographic of all non top level motor sports that don't have sponsorship backing. Overall I'd say it's a pretty poor mans game.
That said, I don't believe these people are also walking around with their last $20 or $30 in their pocket.
It is all proportional. $30 won't buy a set of spark plugs so it is an amount of money that is more of an incidental purchase rather than the decider of whether they get a part or not.
As I said, this would represent lunch for them and a mate at the track. I doubt any of them will go hungry so they can buy a part. You have to put things into perspective be it $10, 20 or 30. 10 is definitely too low if you are going to charge at all but clearly your in it for the enjoyment not the money which makes a lot of what I have said irrelevant. :lol
In any event, increasing your prices any amount will be a good thing for you. It will be interesting to hear what sort of price levels Bill suggests based on his experience.
Good luck with it all!
The best part about all of this to me is, I love doing it and I haven't paid in YEARS to go photograph a race.
As I said before, I am looking into increasing my prices and I have justification after the last race I shot. All things said, you brought up a lot of good points from which I hope to make myself a better photographer and a business man. Nothing said fell on def ears.
Here are some of the photographers in my area and their sites.
Ron Skinner Photos out of the Houston area. It's about 3 hrs from me but we have covered the same race a few times. Manvel Motorsports from the Houston area as well. Dancer Motorsports from East Texas as well. We also have photographed at the same place as well. She has even bought pictures of her car from the a few of the nights we were together. Jeff Garvin is out of the Austin area. Photography and Video by Debbie is out of the Waco/Killeen area. Rudy Garcia Photography is from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.
These are all of the photographers that I know of that have done some sort of stock car racing photography in my area. If you look and see, all of our prices are pretty close in prices and even a couple are cheaper than mine. I look at their pictures and that's how I try to improve on mine. Yes some are better and some aren't as good, but I compare to try to provide a better quality picture every time I go out and take pictures.
By no means am I saying that I am the best, be it pictures or pricing, nor or am I saying any of us are right. I just wanted to show that my prices are pretty standard for my area.
These are all of the photographers that I know of that have done some sort of stock car racing photography in my area. If you look and see, all of our prices are pretty close in prices and even a couple are cheaper than mine.
Holy smokes, some of your competition have really, really low prices.
You are basically doing this for the love of it but trying to make it a business.
The other people are most likley doing the same.
Because the business part is a secondary concern, your all making it an undervalued market that no one can really make any money from.
It's very similar to what I found here.
Given that running a business is my priority, that's exactly why I gave it away. I'm not interested in beating dead horse's so I went and found a live one to beat.
While ever people will put fun before profit, it will always be a struggle to make it worth while financially because no one is really interested in the business side, they just want to be around and shoot cars.
Part of the problem is bound to be what appears to be a large number of suppliers of photographs where this guy is shooting. Its a market that is probably over-supplied, and any over supplied market will bring down prices. Just ask the airline industry. The other problem is this type of racer is very likely quite budget constrained. You might have better luck approaching the sponsors of the cars, selling marketing prints and files directly to them.
The only question I have is, how much does local stock car racing affect say wedding photography? Like Merc said, it's two totally different things.
As I said before, this thread alone has taught me a lot. "I'm like a sponge and I absorbed it." I'm always wanting to learn more and as long as people, like the ones that have contributed to this thread, keep sharing; I see myself becoming more of a professional and I hope to be able to share my knowledge learned with others.
I leave tomorrow for the weekend and hope to have pictures worthy of sharing for critique and just for viewing pleasure.
The only question I have is, how much does local stock car racing affect say wedding photography?
It doesn't. Not one bit. And those who try to apply portrait/wedding pricing and business models to local racing would find they wouldn't sell anything.
It doesn't. Not one bit. And those who try to apply portrait/wedding pricing and business models to local racing would find they wouldn't sell anything.
After looking at Bills great colleges, A thought occurs about an idea I had a while back for doing shots at the city ( state) drag Strip.
Last time the idea fleetingly passed through the breezy space in my head, i saw there was another guy there and looking on the track website, I see there are now 2.
As one does, I found their sites and checked them out and got one of the shocks of my life.
Their shots are good, Real good in fact but their whole business setup goes beyond what I would think was creditable as an example of how to show people what NOT to do!
First of all, you log onto their sites and you are immediately hit with a dogs breakfast of all the things not to do on a website rolled into one. You sort through the really offensive visual nightmare to get to the pics ... eventually.
One site has all the links in text on one page that is about 4 screens down which opens to a basic thumb page. you click an image but there is no forward or back button on the page so it's do it manually in the web browser. Real easy to close the whole site down which I imagine many people would do and wouldn't be bothered going back.
The other site has better spaced out directories with thumbnails and it looks quite presentable. Clicking on a pic opens another page with lots of instructions in oversized text of varying size and a rainbow of garish colours. You scroll down to see the pic and find a nice sharp clear image 700 pix wide with a small, neat watermark that looks like it should/ would be there on the final print rather than as any sort of copyright notice or deterrent. Why buy an image when i can save that and probably print it out to a paltry, but these days, apparently acceptable standard.
I bet people have whole collections of images from this guy they never paid a cent for!
But I'm keen to have a real pic, how do I get one?
This guy has no navigation on the pic page either so it's to the back button on the browser.
You look for a bit then realise, there aren't many pics on this index. You look and see a note, there were lots more taken, email the guy to get a link to the hidden page.
Errrr,,, what??? I have to email to see the pics? Why can't he just put them there so i can make an order now while I'm feeling happy after a beer or 27?
Ok forget about sending an email for a sec, how much is the guy charging before I go any further. ummm, errr, where the heck is the pricelist???
Oh, You have to email him for that too!
OK, well I like that pic that he does have up up, what number is that and I'll jot it down now.
Click on image, there is that nice big one i'll just save to my hdd now.... but what number is it?? Where do i find the number?
Go back to index page, orders and inquiries.... umm,, more multicolored text with links to magazines and the like I'm not interested in right now, Ah!, there it is.....
OK, so basically I look at the URL in the browser, take no notice of the domain name, or the folder with the date, the description of the event, oh, not the first text but the one behind the next slash.... and it's those 12 or 15 characters I have to write down... minus the HTM.
IS THIS GUY SERIOUS????
Could he make it any more difficult, time wasting or confusing for someone to give them their money????
I know my way around a web site, I know what i'm looking for but so far i have spent 15 minutes and the only advance i have made is in my confusion and annoyance!
Lord help the people he's trying to sell pics to!
Not to worry, lets go back to the first guy, see what he got.
Yes, there is a nice sharp, clear image with a feint watermark going across diagonally ( good, that won't look too bad on my screen saver or when i print it out) and there is the image number at the bottom. That's convinent... for once!
Right oh. now to order. no shopping cart, I'll try clicking on the image, back to index... There we go, text link in that lovely shade of purple.
Click there and ... Whoa!! WTF is that mess?
8 dropdown menus... one for each image size... I think.
The first one I can't work out though.... oh, you select the postage fees first before you order.... for the largest size pic. But I don't know what size I want yet, owmucharthey?
Price list, pricelist price l..... download PDF file.....
OK there we go.
They seem reasonable prices..... For 1982!!huh
6x4 $2.50
Yes, that's two bux fifty! :wow
But wait!!!
If you take your time before enduring this sales nightmare and there are 20 images you want, order them together and get the "Bulk Discount" and they will only set you back $2 !!!!
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OK, sorry, just climbing on the chair again and going to wash my face in cold water to make sure I'm not having a nightmare and I'm really awake and seeing this.
If you want a pic you can actually see of car in without the aid of a magnifying glass, you can have a 6x8 for $5 or 4.50 if you order 20 and for the lottery winners who money is no object for, an 8x12 will set you back the princely sum of.... wait for it..... $12.50!
But who would buy 1 when you can get them in lots of 20 for only $10!!!
Doesn't have to be the same car so I'll find out what the boys want and we'll order them all together and save 25% !!!
OK, got this far, how do i pay?
Hmm, pay pal only.
The other guy takes cash though!
You can buy the 6x4's he has pre printed at the track! Just look for the little white hatchback, rego number...... and he'll have them in the back of the car or sitting on a crate on a card table behind it.
Look, there is a pic to show you.
Wow! Wal Mart, move over!
This guy is coming through!
Does anyone know a word that means gobsmacked only with 50 times the emphasis?
I Don't but i need a word like that to describe what I'm seeing right now!
Now If I turned up with my trailer and tent and Vstations and offered instant printing, i could make..... Nothing remotely worth my time at these prices! How in gods name can you do anything worth while when you have dilettantes like this stuffing it up for everyone. And these guys aren't Johny come lately s, they appear to have been doing it for years at track all around the country!
All I can say is they must have good day jobs to be able to do this and love it as much as life itself 'cause they sure aren't making any money from it.
BUT, I think I figured out a way to make more out of the drag meets than they are!....
What I'm going to do is go there with a big hessian sack and collect all the Aluminum Coke cans and then take them to the recycle centre and cash them in!
I should make about $30 bux a night doing that which will be a hell of a lot more than these guys make at the end of the day, AND, i won't have the overheads of thousands of Dollars worth of camera gear or other things they have invested in.... Like plastic crates and card tables ....
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I also believe you are charging way too little if this is your price structure as well.
Your saying you don't have money to invest in something that would benefit your pics and then demonstrating exactly why!
Sorry, but $10 for an 8x10 would be a joke if as already said, it wasn't hurting the industry.
I don't believe this for a minute.
The rule of thumb with this sort of work is the higher the cost of entry, the less price conscious they are.
These people have tens of thousands tied up in this and your saying they won't pay the price of a lunch from the the burger stand for them and a mate on a photo or maybe a filter or a race entry fee?
Many would probably spend hundreds in fuel alone to get there and what they burn on the track let alone the over all cost of playing the game.
-If- cost is an issue, the problem is not your pricing, it's your marketing.
On the pricing score, you have already undermined the price assertion.
Your looking to price your CD, which despite the opinion of photographers, seem to hold a lesser value to the public than prints, at $50... 5 times the cost of your 8x10. If you say yeah, they are getting more though, then the question is not of price but of product.
You have already shown that in your belief that it's not the $ they can't afford, it's what they will pay those $ for.
You also said that your pics are better than the guy doing onsite printing so why wouldn't people pay for better pics at a higher price? Photographers seem to be great at asserting consumer behaviour without actually testing it one bit. put the shoe on your own foot. Why did you buy that L lens instead of paying 1/3 of the price for a cheaper one?
Because you wanted the best/ what it could do for you/ the satisfaction of owning it....
I'll bet the racers buy the best the best parts they can afford because they are better and not the least consideration is bragging rights.
Give them the right pics and $20 is not going to be a make or break.
What ever you do though, don't assume you know what people are going to do till you test it and test if fairly and repeatedly.
You need to build the value into your product and if your competitor is cutting his own throat as well with undervalued pricing, then it comes back to offering something different they can't get from him and building the value into it.
Be prepared for the argument, find out what costs $30 that the racers go though as an incidental and feed that back.
" For the price of the tear offs you throw away on the track, you can have a print to show your grand kids and relive your experience of the event for ever."
" For 1/10th of the price of a single tyre that lasts 3 races, you can have a memory that lasts forever."
Yeah, you can do a lot better than that but you get the point.
Why?
That makes little if any financial sense.
It will probably take you 5-6 sales @ $10 to make the same amount of profit from 1 $30 sale when you cost it out properly.
There are a limited amount drivers and fans at any event so your marketing should be directed to getting the most from each sale, not volume sales.
The notion of 50 or 10 repeat sales to each client in my experience is also flawed. Unless you get some really one off pics, they don't tend to buy heaps of shots of their cars that basically look the same unless the car changes. If they do and your prices are higher, they will somply cut the amount of pics they buy to the same budget as what they would have spent on multiple prints.
There is no benefit to you in higher numbers of print sales, it's more work and effort. What you are chasing is getting the maximum of $ from every event you do and chasing volume is not the right tact to take in this instance.
Compounding this, they will probably travel and get to see pics from a whole load of different shooters so the amount of prints they buy from any one is not going to be high at all.
You are getting repeat customers that have a very low individual value that could easily be exchanged for clients that buy repeatedly but at higher individual values.
Have you actually qualified your pricing in REAL terms by charging a Higher price than what you are now and offered similar levels of quality in your photographs? It's no use saying "I tried charging $20 a print when I first started out 12 months ago and didn't know what I do now or have the recognition with the drivers or take the same type of pics" you have to keep things on an even keel and TEST your market.
You need to put YOUR fears and beliefs on the line and try something new and see how it goes. I know it's hard, I also know it works but sometimes I get into my comfort zone as well and don't want to move. I just remind myself the risk i'm taking ( might lose a few sales on one event
This is different to my experience and I'd be interested to qualify that in real terms to understand things fully.
To put this in numbers, what sort of time frame are we talking about in how long you have been doing this, how many sales would you average per meeting and how many of those sales would be to the repeat clients?
Are your competitors charging the same or similar to you or are they at a different level?
Maybe things where you are vary to what I have seen here and if that is the case it would be helpful for me to understand. If you could put some real numbers on that i'd be happy to stand corrected for the benefit of learning.
I don't think the main demographic is the sport itself.
Parts, fuel, tyres and expenses generally I believe will be the same all over.
What variance there is probably is only going to be a small percentage of the cost of playing the game over all and where they are higher the field has probably leveled itself out to those that can afford to play at that level and weeded out the ones that can't.
I found motor sports a very tough game to make a quid from and didn't do it long. My encounter was the base demographic was not an ideal target market , ( middle age men) there was too much competition from people giving their pictures away as a means to access parts of the track they wouldn't be able to get to normally and avoid entrance fees and that the drivers didn't have a lot of reason to regularly buy pictures.
As I was dragging my sorry butt out to the tracks because I wanted to make a profit, not because I wanted to be there, I went and found a better more profitable sand pit to play in and established myself in that. Competition is less ( but admittedly growing) the market demographic is far better, (kids and girls from above average income families) the price of admission is right up there and there is reason for the people to buy at every event.
If your in it for the $$, I would suggest you need to look at what your doing very carefully and if $10 an 8x10 really is all you can get after you have tested the market properly, then look at something that has better base potential.
If your in it primarily because you like being around the sport, thats cool, but realize your always going to be struggling with the issues you have now and never going to make enough out of it to afford the gear you want or the satisfaction out of it you seem to be really craving which is the same as most of us i think.
Using a portrait and wedding pricing strategy for racing..... Not. Gonna. Work.
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I never said I didn't have the money. I said I'd find it hard pressed to invest in even a simple setup such as what you mention just to keep having to replace over and over again. That to me doesn't make any sense.
Point taken again, see above.
From what I have seen and through experience is that usually my target audience spends what little money they have leftover into getting the quality parts they need to compete. Most of, not all, but most of them work a lot of extra hours just to make sure they can flip the bill for the hobby they love. Very rarely are they backed by big $$$ sponsors that help cover they costs. As a matter of fact, most racers go in the red every year doing what they do.
I don't believe there is any problem. I do this for the love of racing and photography. To each his own.
Give the hand that I am delt with bad, worse than bad, lighting, dust and beat up cars, just to name a few; I believe my work would stand up to most of the photographers that are in the same genre. Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, I just believe that my work is pretty solid but I am always trying to find ways to improve.
Again, racers have money tied up elsewhere. I would rather sell at my price and them spend money on parts just so they can show up every race they can. What good is it if they spend whatever little extra money on pictures if they can be on the track for me to take them? I got the L lenses out of necessity. I spent the money on the 1/3 less lens and didn't sell one picture. Once I was able to get better quality, people started looking, buying and talking.
Which they should buy the best for their cars. They are competitive by nature and sometimes that's what it takes, even though it may not be the right answer. Again, I stand behind my work now and trying to make it even better.
The quality is there, the impulse purchasing is what I can't compete with.
I'm already on that. Fortunately for me, my best friend is a race car driver and I'm always asking him; "What makes you buy pictures?" He lives nowhere near me so being blount is the only way I get it. FWIW-having the pictures right there for him to hold and see is what gets him to buy.
" For 1/10th of the price of a single tyre that lasts 3 races, you can have a memory that lasts forever."
Yeah, you can do a lot better than that but you get the point.
Racers and fans are there from 6-8 months out of the year. I'll agree with one thing, I'll sell more when they get a new wrap/paint job/car or when they win. My loyal customers that are "die hard" collectors will buy no matter what. I had one customer purchase every week from me except one. If my prices were higher would that have happened, probably not.
Rarely, and I mean rarely, is there more than just me taking pictures on any given night. Even when there were multiple, four to be exact, I still had sales; from out of state even. It's not like Indy or Daytona, this is just "some good ol boy" racing.
Clients that would spend say $30 on an 8x10 are very far and few between where I am at.
I can honestly say no. When I first started where I am now, I caught HELL for my pricing and they way I sell. They couldn't believe that I was selling for "that high". Now with that said, I have done a lot of reading and whatnot to introduce a different price list. It still won't be $30 for an 8x10 but it's going to be more. I am expecting there will be less sales at first, if not for longer, but I do see where I need to start thinking about things I didn't have to, or just didn't, think about before.
See above.
My prices are not any less than any other track photographers in the state from what I have been able to find.
I'm not exactly sure of what you are asking here?
You are just going to have to trust me on this one; it's apples to oranges.
Did you ever consider the wives, girlfriends, mother and fathers? Again, where I'm located they make up a large percentage of my sales but with the same rules as the drivers; hard working, under paid people that love their sport.
I LOVE it there, makes a huge difference.
To me you adapted and overcame, kudos to you. You saw your numbers and figured out a way to make them better.
Unfortunately, I have no desire to photograph much else. That said, see above and then I'll probably go by the wayside just as others have.
I do love being around the sport. I get plenty of satisfaction out of what I do. When a customer comes to me and says; "Jamie, I got my pictures last week and they are BADA$$!" What more could I ask for. BTW, this seems to happen quite frequently. I've narrowed it down to this, either I'm doing something right or the previous photogs were just that bad...
I really don't want this to sound brash or anything like that; so please don't take any of my answers that way.
This is what I do; I go to work in the AM, any chance I get I read and try to learn as much as possible about photography and cameras ect without pissing my coworkers off. I come home, tend to my duties as a husband, father and homeowner and then I sit in front of the computer reading and learning as much as I can before raceday. When I get to the track, I try to execute to the best of my ability and then I critique my self. Customers will usually say nice things regardless so I have to be really hard on myself. Honestly I believe, as stated before, that I've done well with tons of room for improvement.
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A former sports shooter
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Bill, You are experienced in this sport in a closer area than I am, what do you think is a reasonable price to sell an 8x10 print for example at?
Yep, sure does! Makes all the difference I'd say.
Clearly I am looking at things from a different perspective to you.
I would do it purely to make money, you'd pay to do it.
That changes pretty much everything.
I'm not for a second saying I think the racers have wads of cash falling out of their pockets, I do understand the demographic of all non top level motor sports that don't have sponsorship backing. Overall I'd say it's a pretty poor mans game.
That said, I don't believe these people are also walking around with their last $20 or $30 in their pocket.
It is all proportional. $30 won't buy a set of spark plugs so it is an amount of money that is more of an incidental purchase rather than the decider of whether they get a part or not.
As I said, this would represent lunch for them and a mate at the track. I doubt any of them will go hungry so they can buy a part. You have to put things into perspective be it $10, 20 or 30. 10 is definitely too low if you are going to charge at all but clearly your in it for the enjoyment not the money which makes a lot of what I have said irrelevant. :lol
In any event, increasing your prices any amount will be a good thing for you. It will be interesting to hear what sort of price levels Bill suggests based on his experience.
Good luck with it all!
That's hard for me to say because 90% of my sales have been digital files or CD's. The few paper prints have been 12x18 or higher and have been collages, not photos. I have not sold a single 8x12 or smaller paper print this year.
A former sports shooter
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As I said before, I am looking into increasing my prices and I have justification after the last race I shot. All things said, you brought up a lot of good points from which I hope to make myself a better photographer and a business man. Nothing said fell on def ears.
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Ron Skinner Photos out of the Houston area. It's about 3 hrs from me but we have covered the same race a few times.
Manvel Motorsports from the Houston area as well.
Dancer Motorsports from East Texas as well. We also have photographed at the same place as well. She has even bought pictures of her car from the a few of the nights we were together.
Jeff Garvin is out of the Austin area.
Photography and Video by Debbie is out of the Waco/Killeen area.
Rudy Garcia Photography is from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.
These are all of the photographers that I know of that have done some sort of stock car racing photography in my area. If you look and see, all of our prices are pretty close in prices and even a couple are cheaper than mine. I look at their pictures and that's how I try to improve on mine. Yes some are better and some aren't as good, but I compare to try to provide a better quality picture every time I go out and take pictures.
By no means am I saying that I am the best, be it pictures or pricing, nor or am I saying any of us are right. I just wanted to show that my prices are pretty standard for my area.
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Holy smokes, some of your competition have really, really low prices.
A former sports shooter
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You are basically doing this for the love of it but trying to make it a business.
The other people are most likley doing the same.
Because the business part is a secondary concern, your all making it an undervalued market that no one can really make any money from.
It's very similar to what I found here.
Given that running a business is my priority, that's exactly why I gave it away. I'm not interested in beating dead horse's so I went and found a live one to beat.
While ever people will put fun before profit, it will always be a struggle to make it worth while financially because no one is really interested in the business side, they just want to be around and shoot cars.
Part of the problem is bound to be what appears to be a large number of suppliers of photographs where this guy is shooting. Its a market that is probably over-supplied, and any over supplied market will bring down prices. Just ask the airline industry. The other problem is this type of racer is very likely quite budget constrained. You might have better luck approaching the sponsors of the cars, selling marketing prints and files directly to them.
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As I said before, this thread alone has taught me a lot. "I'm like a sponge and I absorbed it." I'm always wanting to learn more and as long as people, like the ones that have contributed to this thread, keep sharing; I see myself becoming more of a professional and I hope to be able to share my knowledge learned with others.
I leave tomorrow for the weekend and hope to have pictures worthy of sharing for critique and just for viewing pleasure.
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Let us know what you changed from last time, how you marketed yourself and what the result and feedback was.
Good luck with it.
It doesn't. Not one bit. And those who try to apply portrait/wedding pricing and business models to local racing would find they wouldn't sell anything.
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Last time the idea fleetingly passed through the breezy space in my head, i saw there was another guy there and looking on the track website, I see there are now 2.
As one does, I found their sites and checked them out and got one of the shocks of my life.
Their shots are good, Real good in fact but their whole business setup goes beyond what I would think was creditable as an example of how to show people what NOT to do!
First of all, you log onto their sites and you are immediately hit with a dogs breakfast of all the things not to do on a website rolled into one. You sort through the really offensive visual nightmare to get to the pics ... eventually.
One site has all the links in text on one page that is about 4 screens down which opens to a basic thumb page. you click an image but there is no forward or back button on the page so it's do it manually in the web browser. Real easy to close the whole site down which I imagine many people would do and wouldn't be bothered going back.
The other site has better spaced out directories with thumbnails and it looks quite presentable. Clicking on a pic opens another page with lots of instructions in oversized text of varying size and a rainbow of garish colours. You scroll down to see the pic and find a nice sharp clear image 700 pix wide with a small, neat watermark that looks like it should/ would be there on the final print rather than as any sort of copyright notice or deterrent. Why buy an image when i can save that and probably print it out to a paltry, but these days, apparently acceptable standard.
I bet people have whole collections of images from this guy they never paid a cent for!
But I'm keen to have a real pic, how do I get one?
This guy has no navigation on the pic page either so it's to the back button on the browser.
You look for a bit then realise, there aren't many pics on this index. You look and see a note, there were lots more taken, email the guy to get a link to the hidden page.
Errrr,,, what??? I have to email to see the pics? Why can't he just put them there so i can make an order now while I'm feeling happy after a beer or 27?
Ok forget about sending an email for a sec, how much is the guy charging before I go any further. ummm, errr, where the heck is the pricelist???
Oh, You have to email him for that too!
OK, well I like that pic that he does have up up, what number is that and I'll jot it down now.
Click on image, there is that nice big one i'll just save to my hdd now.... but what number is it?? Where do i find the number?
Go back to index page, orders and inquiries.... umm,, more multicolored text with links to magazines and the like I'm not interested in right now, Ah!, there it is.....
OK, so basically I look at the URL in the browser, take no notice of the domain name, or the folder with the date, the description of the event, oh, not the first text but the one behind the next slash.... and it's those 12 or 15 characters I have to write down... minus the HTM.
IS THIS GUY SERIOUS????
Could he make it any more difficult, time wasting or confusing for someone to give them their money????
I know my way around a web site, I know what i'm looking for but so far i have spent 15 minutes and the only advance i have made is in my confusion and annoyance!
Lord help the people he's trying to sell pics to!
Not to worry, lets go back to the first guy, see what he got.
Yes, there is a nice sharp, clear image with a feint watermark going across diagonally ( good, that won't look too bad on my screen saver or when i print it out) and there is the image number at the bottom. That's convinent... for once!
Right oh. now to order. no shopping cart, I'll try clicking on the image, back to index... There we go, text link in that lovely shade of purple.
Click there and ... Whoa!! WTF is that mess?
8 dropdown menus... one for each image size... I think.
The first one I can't work out though.... oh, you select the postage fees first before you order.... for the largest size pic. But I don't know what size I want yet, owmucharthey?
Price list, pricelist price l..... download PDF file.....
OK there we go.
They seem reasonable prices.....
For 1982!!
6x4 $2.50
Yes, that's two bux fifty! :wow
But wait!!!
If you take your time before enduring this sales nightmare and there are 20 images you want, order them together and get the "Bulk Discount" and they will only set you back $2 !!!!
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OK, sorry, just climbing on the chair again and going to wash my face in cold water to make sure I'm not having a nightmare and I'm really awake and seeing this.
If you want a pic you can actually see of car in without the aid of a magnifying glass, you can have a 6x8 for $5 or 4.50 if you order 20 and for the lottery winners who money is no object for, an 8x12 will set you back the princely sum of.... wait for it..... $12.50!
But who would buy 1 when you can get them in lots of 20 for only $10!!!
Doesn't have to be the same car so I'll find out what the boys want and we'll order them all together and save 25% !!!
OK, got this far, how do i pay?
Hmm, pay pal only.
The other guy takes cash though!
You can buy the 6x4's he has pre printed at the track! Just look for the little white hatchback, rego number...... and he'll have them in the back of the car or sitting on a crate on a card table behind it.
Look, there is a pic to show you.
Wow! Wal Mart, move over!
This guy is coming through!
Does anyone know a word that means gobsmacked only with 50 times the emphasis?
I Don't but i need a word like that to describe what I'm seeing right now!
Now If I turned up with my trailer and tent and Vstations and offered instant printing, i could make..... Nothing remotely worth my time at these prices! How in gods name can you do anything worth while when you have dilettantes like this stuffing it up for everyone. And these guys aren't Johny come lately s, they appear to have been doing it for years at track all around the country!
All I can say is they must have good day jobs to be able to do this and love it as much as life itself 'cause they sure aren't making any money from it.
BUT, I think I figured out a way to make more out of the drag meets than they are!....
What I'm going to do is go there with a big hessian sack and collect all the Aluminum Coke cans and then take them to the recycle centre and cash them in!
I should make about $30 bux a night doing that which will be a hell of a lot more than these guys make at the end of the day, AND, i won't have the overheads of thousands of Dollars worth of camera gear or other things they have invested in.... Like plastic crates and card tables ....
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So I see you posted up some pics from the " Big money" event where the winner got $10K, How did you go with your pics sales?