I did thanks thats where my passion began to grow, i think a mixture of self taught and being taught is a good combo, i just signed myself up for a course in portraiture photography- so as to teach me the technical side.
You just posted some work from a trip round India right? I think I remember seeing it, it was great, if thats where you are starting from you'll go far!
Different people learn different ways, no shame in it. I'm self taught, like you learn from mistakes, accidental successes but also just lots of doing. Lots and lots of doing!
seriously people pay you to have fun? How freakin awesome is that?
Anyways, enough rambling! get out and take some pictures, you might even have snow or is that just the grim north?
yes. that is freakin awesome! i wanted to deviate from my siblings/family line of work (banking :l) and they encouraged me to do so! we had flurry of snow actually, but i really love the snow so hopefully it will settle for me!
"the art that comes from love of the and the joy of the process"
There is NO higher compliment than this for me - thank you! Without joy in the process there is NOTHING. This is something even more evident in singing (where you can neither see, nor accurately hear for yourself the end product you are creating), but the concept is the same, and essentially the guiding principle of all my artistic endeavours.
One other maxim which I apply to my singing and, now, my photographic endeavours: perfection is the enemy of excellence.
By which I mean that if we only seek for "perfection" we will ALWAYS be frustrated and disappointed, because it simply doesn't exist and will just as likely stifle our efforts as inspire us to pursue them. If we constantly strive for EXCELLENCE, however - and to continually push ourselves to exceed our own past efforts - we will continue to grow as artists (and people, for that matter) rather than be paralyzed by unattainable goals (however lofty those may be).
Oh, and BBstringer and/or any baffled Americans - do you know what "cream crackered" means and why? (If so, apologies. If not, then Richy, will you do the honours or shall I? :giggle)
For me it's a never-ending process... but here are some thoughts about what's helped me: presonal
- Looking at lots of photos
- Years of self-taught experience with a manual 35mm and a darkroom in the garage.
- Hanging out with friends who share the interest
- Looking at lots of photos
- Attempting to copy good technique
- Balancing a lust for more and better stuff with discipline to make what I have work better
- Reading about technique
- Looking at lots of photos
- Experimenting with the same shot over and over (on location and in post-processing)
- Recently taking on some forum challenges and contests.
- Taking critique with a balance of thick skin and a grain of salt.
- Trying to develop a sense of personal style
- Looking at lots of photos
- Taking lots of photos
- Trying to take fewer, but better, more purposeful photos
- Photographing without a camera (visualizing everywhere)
- Paying attention to light in every situation every day (especially when not shooting)
... and avoiding animated emoticons (sometimes more successfully that others).
"the art that comes from love of the and the joy of the process"
There is NO higher compliment than this for me - thank you! Without joy in the process there is NOTHING. This is something even more evident in singing (where you can neither see, nor accurately hear for yourself the end product you are creating), but the concept is the same, and essentially the guiding principle of all my artistic endeavours.
One other maxim which I apply to my singing and, now, my photographic endeavours: perfection is the enemy of excellence.
By which I mean that if we only seek for "perfection" we will ALWAYS be frustrated and disappointed, because it simply doesn't exist and will just as likely stifle our efforts as inspire us to pursue them. If we constantly strive for EXCELLENCE, however - and to continually push ourselves to exceed our own past efforts - we will continue to grow as artists (and people, for that matter) rather than be paralyzed by unattainable goals (however lofty those may be).
Oh, and BBstringer and/or any baffled Americans - do you know what "cream crackered" means and why? (If so, apologies. If not, then Richy, will you do the honours or shall I? :giggle)
Yes, quite, Divamum:D I spent my senior year studying at RADA in London and working at the National (Old Vic).
After late rehearsals I invariably got Pete, my favorite taxi driver. He was a lovely Cockney and tutored me on "The Knowledge" (the incredible ability the cabbies have to have of the london streets in order to get a license) as well as such terms as "my plates are knackered". He was referring to "the plates of meat which are my feet" .
Well "cream crackered" certainly came up and while the meaning of knackered came forth as the usual understanding he also let me know with a sly grin it had a less savory meaning as well but was a bit too conservative to actually part with that bit of information. I asked a fellow student who was a Brit just what that might be. After he and a few others had a good laugh at my expense he took me aside and explained exactly what that might be. Let us be happy to leave it with the understanding that it "takes two" and we'll be gentlemanly and leave it at that:D. Richy's cockney "fink" for think took me right back to Pete and a wonderful experience in my life. Thanks again Richy, lovely memories.
HA! Well, we certainly are a theatrical and British bunch of expats round here, aren't we? (In case you didn't know, my handle is actually quite literal - I'm an opera singer, and I've got a daughter, thus "divamum" ) Too funny.
I wasn't actually even thinking about the more salacious meaning of knackers (although counter-tenors in the UK are always known as "knacker-crackers" ), but thinking that most Americans would wonder what on earth "cream crackered" meant at all!! :lol
That said, there is a serious point in all this rambling - I suspect the British part is just coincidental (although there are a few more expats lurking around Dgrin, including Emily, former moderator of the Challenges), but I wonder what the connection is between theatricals/musicians and photography? It seems a lot of people cross between them. Food for thought.....
HA! Well, we certainly are a theatrical and British bunch of expats round here, aren't we? (In case you didn't know, my handle is actually quite literal - I'm an opera singer, and I've got a daughter, thus "divamum" ) Too funny.
I wasn't actually even thinking about the more salacious meaning of knackers (although counter-tenors in the UK are always known as "knacker-crackers" ), but thinking that most Americans would wonder what on earth "cream crackered" meant at all!! :lol
That said, there is a serious point in all this rambling - I suspect the British part is just coincidental (although there are a few more expats lurking around Dgrin, including Emily, former moderator of the Challenges), but I wonder what the connection is between theatricals/musicians and photography? It seems a lot of people cross between them. Food for thought.....
/tangent
Yes Divamum, I suspect that lots of photographers may well have other artistic traits. The crossovers are there for many I'm sure. Back to the original part of this thread..technique, learning, the point at which it becomes art (on whatever level). I suspect training in another art form may give an insight to the progression one travels on the way to a "moment" as most actors would label it. This becomes more fascinating as the answers evolve. I have used the same language with friends who are performing artists to help get my photography ideas across. They instantly understand the concept even if they haven't got the slightest idea what an F-stop is and really don't care. They understand the concept of reaching the "moment" as the pinnacle of success . You know, as I think of it now....there were, it seems, quite a few serious photographers at my school...just didn't think about it until now. Hmmmm:D All were performing artists in several disciplines.
I know that you understand being in the moment on stage. Not ahead, not behind...right on top of it. That comes with lots of training, rehearsal and hard work so the final product can at least appear to be effortless.
Is that the parallel here?
This is fantastic...thanks again for a perspective that reframes ideas and provokes thought towards, at the very least, a new avenue for growth.
By the way....some of those friends work at the Met...wonder about the six degrees of separation?
Very interesting! I came from a scientific / engineering / computing / business background (yup i got about ) so I guess I was coming from the other end of the spectrum so maybe we had different struggles / hurdles. Photography has been a great outlet for creativity which otherwise would have been directed at practical jokes.
Plates of meat is a great one, apples and pears is another (i'm trying to keep it clean) , 'the trouble and strife' is another. London is a fun place!
It took me a long time to even believe I might have a shot at an artistic side, let alone get confidence in trying to build it. Developing catalysts uses the other lobe (or maybe not?) and you really have to let go of inhibitions and self doubt.
I used to be fine in meetings, delivering presentations, taking investor calls etc but you theatrical types have an advantage in weddings I think, you have a confidence in performance that I had to grow. From evoking emotions in the couple to dealing with uncle bobs, it takes a lot of performing!
Once again this thread goes well beyond the boundaries I had imagined. While I had considered the question down to the arena of technique and art I really hadn't considered a personal sensibility that might have an effect on our approach, both to learning and how we conceptualize this thing we do and love. As a craft, a natural talent or an acquired skill...it seems that we do have a much broader range in our very idea of what constitutes good work and the ability to learn how to accomplish it.
Once again Richy, your insight is much appreciated.
For me online forums like DRIN, Photocame, POTN, Flickr help especially while answering questions pertaining to technique and also help with providing creative ideas. however the rewarding experience of getting 5 good shots form say a 100 attempts pushes me to try and get better at this hobby.
The online forums, books help with what is otherwise a very steep learning curve but it is the real world practice that ultimately leaves a lasting impression.
I have a long line of colleagues that would testify to the difficulties of keeping me on track
Very nicely put! the 5 in 100 doesn't change much, as soon as your skills improve your standards go up as well lol. Just take the time to look back at your earlier shots every so often to see how far you have come, and keep having fun.
Richy, that's half the fun! If we kept on track all the time I'm afraid we'd be a pretty boring lot, wouldn't you say?
Couldn't agree more with the "5". I look back at my work sometimes and just cringe (or worse...:puke1)
This is indeed a cool thread. And its a shocker that I am not alone in coming into photography from a "scientific / engineering / computing / business background"! thumb
As for what made the single biggest difference to my photography...? I could go into the usual DGrin, continuous education, experimentation and review, a holiday, camera or lens.
But really the key point was losing my eyesight for the last 3 years. Now its coming back I don't take it for granted and everything is a wonder.
Art, music and math/logic are all right brain functions - not sure you're quite so much a "switch-hitter" as you think, Richy! Tangential aside: singing is one of the few activities which demands both right AND left brain activity - music is right, and speech is left. This is one of the reasons singing is used a lot in speech pathology (eg stammers) and rehabilitation (eg post-stroke etc). Fascinating stuff.
Deadlock, glad your sight is returning - I'm sure it's a tremendous relief as well as inspiration, and something to give the rest of us pause to think.
I always laugh at the idea that math and music are in the same part of the brain - I am SO non-numerate it's not even funny.... (well, it's funny to lots of other people, like my husband, but not to me )
Hmmm, I have my degrees in Electrical Engineering as well as Philosophy. I guess at some level that all still the same side.... which explains why 'creative' post-processing usually goes horribly, horribly wrong.....
Thanks richy & divamum.
Perhaps I should point out (for those that don't use either lobe much) that I am not suggesting anyone should blind themselves for a few years to see what happens!
The book I've got is with you Richy, right brained = creative and artistic, whereas left brained = logical and analytical.
However, one of the things that always appealed to myself about programming was the purity, elegance and creativity with which you could write the code to perform a task.
I was thoroughly looking forward to rejoining the whipping post but it looks like in the intervening years its changed it name to 'The Refinery' and subsequently been closed down. This place had the best feedback I'd found on the net - honest, logical, informative and not nasty.
Here's an idea for the logical thinkers amongst us...
If you cant innovate, imitate.
- Conduct sufficient research to be able to perform a statistical analysis on a viable sample size.
- Assess the rules of photography and when they have been broken.
- Weigh individual factors against their psychological response from the community.
- Further subdivide the community into your target markets to identify the expectations of each group.
Once you have mastered the camera, lighting and interpersonal skills for getting the best from your subject and rooting out your clients desires, then your research and analysis can be put to use to combine all the elements in a statistically viable amalgamation.
Deadlock, that wonderful feedback is still there -just make sure you put "Please critique" or "C&C" in your subject line. The mods are sometimes even sticky-ing posts for extra C&C, so if you want it, you can still get it
I've been shooting for almost thirty years, but I've drastically improved my photography in the last six months by the following:
1. Learning what makes "art", "art". Most people think this is subjective and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is true to a point. However, there are certain elements of an art piece that actually effects changes in the brain when viewing it. Some basic things are lines, color, and contrast. All those things are touched on all the time as topics for learning photography. But once you realize that is FIRST about light, texture, contrast, color and the subject is NOT important (just icing on the cake) that you begin to SEE differently when you go to shoot. How this applies to your style is up to you.
2. I work in a beautiful location, but this applies to anyone, anywhere! Find a place where you can do a daily photowalk. Walk the same route every time and find the best shots. After a week of this it gets harder and harder but it makes you have to really look and follow the light and you end up honing your skills quite a bit over time!
3. Post processing to further emphasize the "art" in mentioned above. Yes, that's right Photoshop (or lightroom, etc.) You have to make people see what you saw originally, and that means people who do not have the "vision" of an artist, so you have to help them. It's as Mommy Fortuna said in "The Last Unicorn" "Do you think those fools knew you without any help from me? (laughs) No! I had to give you a horn they could see! These days it takes a cheap carnival trick to make folks recognize a real unicorn." You have to use a 'cheap trick' (post-processing) to bring your vision to your audience.
Going to the largest photography school in the states did it for me. I go every year here in Texas. I attended back in 2007 and since that time, I have learned things I didn't even know I could learn.
The school is open to everyone. Last year people from 39 states & 3 countries attended. The school offers 36 classes, but you are only allowed to take one. The class is 5 days long and you work with some master photographers.
Let me know and I'll send you some information on it.
That's a good recommendation for Texas school!
I've heard about it, but then the next thing the guy said was about the evening events, and I sort of wondered if the classes were really top-notch or not.
How big are the classes? Do you get good feedback shoot-time in the course of the class?
Comments
yes. that is freakin awesome! i wanted to deviate from my siblings/family line of work (banking :l) and they encouraged me to do so! we had flurry of snow actually, but i really love the snow so hopefully it will settle for me!
There is NO higher compliment than this for me - thank you!
One other maxim which I apply to my singing and, now, my photographic endeavours:
perfection is the enemy of excellence.
By which I mean that if we only seek for "perfection" we will ALWAYS be frustrated and disappointed, because it simply doesn't exist and will just as likely stifle our efforts as inspire us to pursue them. If we constantly strive for EXCELLENCE, however - and to continually push ourselves to exceed our own past efforts - we will continue to grow as artists (and people, for that matter) rather than be paralyzed by unattainable goals (however lofty those may be).
Oh, and BBstringer and/or any baffled Americans - do you know what "cream crackered" means and why? (If so, apologies. If not, then Richy, will you do the honours or shall I? :giggle)
- Looking at lots of photos
- Years of self-taught experience with a manual 35mm and a darkroom in the garage.
- Hanging out with friends who share the interest
- Looking at lots of photos
- Attempting to copy good technique
- Balancing a lust for more and better stuff with discipline to make what I have work better
- Reading about technique
- Looking at lots of photos
- Experimenting with the same shot over and over (on location and in post-processing)
- Recently taking on some forum challenges and contests.
- Taking critique with a balance of thick skin and a grain of salt.
- Trying to develop a sense of personal style
- Looking at lots of photos
- Taking lots of photos
- Trying to take fewer, but better, more purposeful photos
- Photographing without a camera (visualizing everywhere)
- Paying attention to light in every situation every day (especially when not shooting)
... and avoiding animated emoticons (sometimes more successfully that others).
Check out billseye photos on SmugMug
Yes, quite, Divamum:D I spent my senior year studying at RADA in London and working at the National (Old Vic).
After late rehearsals I invariably got Pete, my favorite taxi driver. He was a lovely Cockney and tutored me on "The Knowledge" (the incredible ability the cabbies have to have of the london streets in order to get a license) as well as such terms as "my plates are knackered". He was referring to "the plates of meat which are my feet"
Well "cream crackered" certainly came up and while the meaning of knackered came forth as the usual understanding he also let me know with a sly grin it had a less savory meaning as well but was a bit too conservative to actually part with that bit of information. I asked a fellow student who was a Brit just what that might be. After he and a few others had a good laugh at my expense he took me aside and explained exactly what that might be
Hear, hear....
I wasn't actually even thinking about the more salacious meaning of knackers (although counter-tenors in the UK are always known as "knacker-crackers"
That said, there is a serious point in all this rambling - I suspect the British part is just coincidental (although there are a few more expats lurking around Dgrin, including Emily, former moderator of the Challenges), but I wonder what the connection is between theatricals/musicians and photography? It seems a lot of people cross between them. Food for thought.....
/tangent
Yes Divamum, I suspect that lots of photographers may well have other artistic traits. The crossovers are there for many I'm sure. Back to the original part of this thread..technique, learning, the point at which it becomes art (on whatever level). I suspect training in another art form may give an insight to the progression one travels on the way to a "moment" as most actors would label it. This becomes more fascinating as the answers evolve. I have used the same language with friends who are performing artists to help get my photography ideas across. They instantly understand the concept even if they haven't got the slightest idea what an F-stop is and really don't care. They understand the concept of reaching the "moment" as the pinnacle of success
I know that you understand being in the moment on stage. Not ahead, not behind...right on top of it. That comes with lots of training, rehearsal and hard work so the final product can at least appear to be effortless.
Is that the parallel here?
This is fantastic...thanks again for a perspective that reframes ideas and provokes thought towards, at the very least, a new avenue for growth.
By the way....some of those friends work at the Met...wonder about the six degrees of separation?
Once again this thread goes well beyond the boundaries I had imagined. While I had considered the question down to the arena of technique and art I really hadn't considered a personal sensibility that might have an effect on our approach, both to learning and how we conceptualize this thing we do and love. As a craft, a natural talent or an acquired skill...it seems that we do have a much broader range in our very idea of what constitutes good work and the ability to learn how to accomplish it.
Once again Richy, your insight is much appreciated.
The online forums, books help with what is otherwise a very steep learning curve but it is the real world practice that ultimately leaves a lasting impression.
My Flickr
EOS 700D, 100 mm f/2.8 Macro USM,
EF-S 55-250 F/4-5.6 IS, EF-50 f/1.8,
EF-S 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II, EF-S 10-18 mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM
Richy, that's half the fun!
Couldn't agree more with the "5". I look back at my work sometimes and just cringe (or worse...:puke1)
Onward and upward eh?
As for what made the single biggest difference to my photography...? I could go into the usual DGrin, continuous education, experimentation and review, a holiday, camera or lens.
But really the key point was losing my eyesight for the last 3 years. Now its coming back I don't take it for granted and everything is a wonder.
Art, music and math/logic are all right brain functions - not sure you're quite so much a "switch-hitter" as you think, Richy! Tangential aside: singing is one of the few activities which demands both right AND left brain activity - music is right, and speech is left. This is one of the reasons singing is used a lot in speech pathology (eg stammers) and rehabilitation (eg post-stroke etc). Fascinating stuff.
Deadlock, glad your sight is returning - I'm sure it's a tremendous relief as well as inspiration, and something to give the rest of us pause to think.
Thinking out of both sides of their brain? Hmmmph, indeed!!!!
:lol4
Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
My SmugMug Site
Perhaps I should point out (for those that don't use either lobe much) that I am not suggesting anyone should blind themselves for a few years to see what happens!
The book I've got is with you Richy, right brained = creative and artistic, whereas left brained = logical and analytical.
However, one of the things that always appealed to myself about programming was the purity, elegance and creativity with which you could write the code to perform a task.
I was thoroughly looking forward to rejoining the whipping post but it looks like in the intervening years its changed it name to 'The Refinery' and subsequently been closed down. This place had the best feedback I'd found on the net - honest, logical, informative and not nasty.
If you cant innovate, imitate.
- Conduct sufficient research to be able to perform a statistical analysis on a viable sample size.
- Assess the rules of photography and when they have been broken.
- Weigh individual factors against their psychological response from the community.
- Further subdivide the community into your target markets to identify the expectations of each group.
Once you have mastered the camera, lighting and interpersonal skills for getting the best from your subject and rooting out your clients desires, then your research and analysis can be put to use to combine all the elements in a statistically viable amalgamation.
OT
@Richy - My favourite was actually Delphi. Object oriented, layers of inheritance and combined with UML analysis it was a lot of fun.
1. Learning what makes "art", "art". Most people think this is subjective and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is true to a point. However, there are certain elements of an art piece that actually effects changes in the brain when viewing it. Some basic things are lines, color, and contrast. All those things are touched on all the time as topics for learning photography. But once you realize that is FIRST about light, texture, contrast, color and the subject is NOT important (just icing on the cake) that you begin to SEE differently when you go to shoot. How this applies to your style is up to you.
2. I work in a beautiful location, but this applies to anyone, anywhere! Find a place where you can do a daily photowalk. Walk the same route every time and find the best shots. After a week of this it gets harder and harder but it makes you have to really look and follow the light and you end up honing your skills quite a bit over time!
3. Post processing to further emphasize the "art" in mentioned above. Yes, that's right Photoshop (or lightroom, etc.) You have to make people see what you saw originally, and that means people who do not have the "vision" of an artist, so you have to help them. It's as Mommy Fortuna said in "The Last Unicorn" "Do you think those fools knew you without any help from me? (laughs) No! I had to give you a horn they could see! These days it takes a cheap carnival trick to make folks recognize a real unicorn." You have to use a 'cheap trick' (post-processing) to bring your vision to your audience.
Well, that's my opinion.
The school is open to everyone. Last year people from 39 states & 3 countries attended. The school offers 36 classes, but you are only allowed to take one. The class is 5 days long and you work with some master photographers.
Let me know and I'll send you some information on it.
I've heard about it, but then the next thing the guy said was about the evening events, and I sort of wondered if the classes were really top-notch or not.
How big are the classes? Do you get good feedback shoot-time in the course of the class?
Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
My SmugMug Site