I'm a terrorist and a crook!
misterb
Banned Posts: 601 Major grins
That's what I heard today for a dog-leash store owner that was mad because I took a picture in his store.
Here's how it went:
Store owner jumps "into my grill" and loudly demands:
"Give me that camera.. I want that camera!"
My answer: "F&%K You.. your not touching my camera!"
"You're a terrorist.. give me that camera! You're probably setting me up!"
My answer: Terrorist!?!? Are you f*%king kidding me?!?!
"You're gonna give me that camera now!" [following me]
My answer: You need to get away from me, douchebag!
Storeowner then follows me around demanding mall security stops me and takes my camera. Even $8.00 an hour Security knows better than that.
I speak with head of Mall Security.. who states that you can't take pictures in the Mall. I said I just saw a lady shooting pictures of her kid on the Merry-Go-Round, and nobody said jack to her. "That's different.."
Ohhh.. ok.. *some people* can take pictures- but I can't! :dunno
Then come the Police..
The second cop wants to see my camera.. and I say he can't have it unless I can play with his Tazer.. so him and I didn't hit it off too well!
The first cop goes back and forth.. I explain that the storeowner will only get my camera when he gives me $500 (Body was $160, lens was $75, film was $5.99.. plus my $260 mark-up!) and under no other circumstances will he nor anyone else will get to touch my camera.
Cops realize I (as a former officer) know that I also have rights.. and my property is MINE.
Long story short- the shots I posted today were in the camera.. and are MINE.
Type-A storeowner looks like he's gonna cry.. and I walk away- with my Nikon *and* the film still inside. He's used to bullying his workers around so he felt he can treat me that way.
BTW- there was a sign *way up on the wall* saying no photography in it's "Code of Conduct" which was NOT prominant at all.
Here's how it went:
Store owner jumps "into my grill" and loudly demands:
"Give me that camera.. I want that camera!"
My answer: "F&%K You.. your not touching my camera!"
"You're a terrorist.. give me that camera! You're probably setting me up!"
My answer: Terrorist!?!? Are you f*%king kidding me?!?!
"You're gonna give me that camera now!" [following me]
My answer: You need to get away from me, douchebag!
Storeowner then follows me around demanding mall security stops me and takes my camera. Even $8.00 an hour Security knows better than that.
I speak with head of Mall Security.. who states that you can't take pictures in the Mall. I said I just saw a lady shooting pictures of her kid on the Merry-Go-Round, and nobody said jack to her. "That's different.."
Ohhh.. ok.. *some people* can take pictures- but I can't! :dunno
Then come the Police..
The second cop wants to see my camera.. and I say he can't have it unless I can play with his Tazer.. so him and I didn't hit it off too well!
The first cop goes back and forth.. I explain that the storeowner will only get my camera when he gives me $500 (Body was $160, lens was $75, film was $5.99.. plus my $260 mark-up!) and under no other circumstances will he nor anyone else will get to touch my camera.
Cops realize I (as a former officer) know that I also have rights.. and my property is MINE.
Long story short- the shots I posted today were in the camera.. and are MINE.
Type-A storeowner looks like he's gonna cry.. and I walk away- with my Nikon *and* the film still inside. He's used to bullying his workers around so he felt he can treat me that way.
BTW- there was a sign *way up on the wall* saying no photography in it's "Code of Conduct" which was NOT prominant at all.
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Comments
The store owner surely overreacted but your confrontational responses did not help the situation. You were right not to surrender your camera but you were still wrong to be taking pictures in a location that did not allow it. Its the guy's store and he gets to make the rules.
Your example to the mall security officer that a mother had been taking pictures of her daughter is akin to me telling a cop I shouldn't get a speeding ticket because another car was speeding too.
If is irritating to run into these prohibitions against our hobby/passion and many of these rules don't make any sense. However there are times and situations where we have to abide by these rules and this situation was one of them.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
+1
Well.. I never noticed the sign that was 15' up on the wall, and I also have never taken photo's anywhere that was a restricted or sensitive area. This store owner was way out of line.. and I don't have to tolerate that from anyone- especially when I left his establishment. He escalated the situation by actively following me- yelling and demanding things which was outside his realm.
I also abided by the rules *once I knew them* and have a policy where I won't photograph anyone/anything who doesn't want to be photographed, but I also have rights.. constitutional rights against "unreasonable search and SEIZURE" as spelled out in the 4th amendment.
Just because you have an issue with the way that I handled it, that doesn't change the fact that I will not allow my constitutional right be trampled on by anyone- ever.
I would also point out that I spent a large part of my adult life in uniform both as a soldier and a civil servant.. wearing a flag as part of my uniform.. and I believe what the flag stands for. Freedom.. the quiet enjoyment of what I want to do as long as it's not illegal and immoral.
Some Mall who feels that thier imposition of a "Code-of-Conduct" which supercedes my rights as an American won't be getting my business any longer, my decision.
You mean with *regular* people or just MORONS.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
If it were me, I would have had you cited for trespassing. I'm guessing your mouth would be most helpful in the store owner's case.
And as a former police officer, you should know about reading signs. Regardless of where they are.
I'm sorry, but your story wins no points except for making people with cameras look like complete douches. And that does nothing for the hobby or toward ensuring photographers continue to have the rights we struggle to keep.
Maybe. But then look at what you posted.
Link to my Smugmug site
You know I told that officer that I never noticed that sign saying 30 MPH.
I still got the ticket.
Sure the store owner overreacted. When that happens it usually works better not to equally overreact.
I too was a soldier and a civil servant. I also value freedom but freedom was not the issue here. The mall's rules are not an attack on your freedom just their assertion of their rights as a property owner. They get to make the rules on their property just as I get to make the rules in my home.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
However- you are wrong.. I was not trespassing by any stretch of the imagination, and I committed no crimes or offenses whatsoever. You would not have lasted long as a cop by cuffing and stuffing a law-abiding citizen. If you don't like my mouth- tough. I can express myself however I want to as long as I don't yell "FIRE" without an actual fire present.
As for the storeowner- he learned a valuable lesson.. one that may save his life one day. Never overstep your boundaries or authority.
Again- there is NO LAW codified that restricts or curtails photography in NY. Look all you want- you won't find it. And I'm not talking about a nuclear powerplant or sensitive area.. just a normal, everyday place.
Ohhh.. and a self-serving Mall "Code-of-Conduct" is NOT law.
Well, if the store owner leases that space in the mall, then I believe that is technically his property, even though he is "renting" it, so to speak, he is still the property owner. Any property owner has the right to tell you not to photograph on his property. Once that has been said, it is a legal obligation of yours to leave. Now, to accost you on the way out is another story, but I myself wouldn't have added any fuel to the fire by being disrespectful. I would not have handed over my camera either though.
Lastly, I think it's a bit odd that you point out your prior service in both military and civil capacities as some sort of justification. The shop owner is also probably an American citizen, and he has a right to ask you to get the heck off of his property. Maybe you should keep this in mind when you're talking about "Freedom" as you said.
Exactly.
Now that I'm aware of thier "rules" (not law) I will no longer bring a camera to the Mall. In addition- my beef was not with the Mall, the woman who ran security and I agreed and I told her I was not aware of the sign that was posted 15' up in the corner of the Mall entrance.
My beef was with the storeowner who felt he can overstep his authority AFTER I left his establishment. He demanded my property, actively restricted my free movement in the Mall by following me and making a stink, and then was DEMANDING of both the Security and Police.
Like I said- he learned a valuable lesson about overstepping his boundaries.
His action were proof enough that he didn't want me there- so I left.
His pig-headed persistance fueled what happened thereafter.
At the end of the day- I kept my camera and film- he was schooled in boundaries.
I speak from experience. The experience of having someone, like yourself, cited for trespass under similar circumstance.
Your knowledge of the law is weak.
Two wrongs never make a right. Had you just kept walking, none of this would have happened.
Did you actually read what I wrote?
I DID keep on walking and was actively followed.. which annoyed me greatly.
If you look over this thread you will find yourself not getting a whole lot of support from fellow photographers. This is a tad unusual as almost all of us have been hassled at various times about our taking pictures.
The store owner was wrong about demanding your property but the following responses did not help in defusing the situation
"F&%K You.. your not touching my camera!"
"Terrorist!?!? Are you f*%king kidding me?!?!"
"You need to get away from me, douchebag!"
IMHO those responses were immature, discourteous, and beligerant.
We all will ,sooner or later, have these types of situations occur. Your responses are an outstanding example of how not to handle those situations.
Now what you do in the future is up to you. However if you persist in this type of behavior you just may not be happy with the results you get.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
pp
Flickr
You mean the part where you actively engaged him in a potty mouthed "conversation"? Yes. I read that part. That's not walking away.
I became nasty ONLY when a complete stranger starts shouting and demanding my property while following me after I leave his establishment like I'm some kind of criminal or terrorist.
I suspect that I'm not getting "public" support here because most camera owners here are of the hand-wringing, milquetoasty, non-assertive, meek and liberal persuasion who would have wet themselves in a similar situation. They would have obediently handed over thier Leica's to have thier film stripped out of thier camera to satisfy a man who sells dog leashes. Of course- the proceeding is my humble opinion.. and maybe it would be a Canon and not a Leica- but you get my drift.
Actually.. it wasn't anything spectacular- just testing the camera/lens I recently acquired and using up the film before I took it to Target for processing.
BTW-Targets scan's weren't that bad..
hahhahaa. Here I am, an active duty Marine for over 4 1/2 years and even I know that trying to use cursing as coercion is a bad move, and the word f*** is literally an acceptable word in everyday conversation in my vernacular. This shows nothing other than the fact that you're a hothead. There are approximately 650,000 better ways that you could've reacted to that, but here you are, generalizing and stereotyping an entire group of people in order to justify yourself. On top of that, you demean the businessman in your story by calling him a "simple dog leash salesman", who probably supports his family well enough to get by on that simplicity.
Humble opinion my ass, I'm 22 years old and I'm telling you to grow up. Maybe that should turn on a bulb or two.
I have had this happen to me when I was told to "get away don't take my picture" and I moved on. I got kicked out Dylan's candy store because they thought I was taking photos of their displays (possibly to steal ideas), so many other people were taking photos, so I pointed this out and was told , yes but they are taking photos of their families infront of the displays not just the displays. The sales lady was rude, so rude, and I really did want to go off on her but I sucked it up and walked out and worked on my ulcer.
Had she tried to confiscate my camera though, I'm not sure how nice I would have stayed.
Also, and this isn't an excuse, but it is what it is, this is New York, conversations tend to quickly get heated and ugly, and interchanges such as the ones described are not unusual. From bumping into someone on the train, to this, live here long enough, and it's bound to happen to you too.
I'm very nice and pretty even tempered, but getting yelled at unexpectantly tends to put me on the defensive and someone trying to take my property, well then maybe I wouldn't be so nice anymore.
People can just be really rude here and sometimes you have to be rude right back. I think that's what happened here, it was a reaction.
_________
You don't get much support because what you did was wrong. Period. As a former "officer" you should know that.
Seriously. You should stop puffing yourself up over this. It's nothing to be proud of. And what do you mean by "satisfy a man who sells dog leashes"? Show a little respect and maybe you'll get a little in return.
You are not getting support because you were wrong. Insulting everyone who has responded to your thread is also a bit of an over reaction.
I have found that when everyone says what I've done was wrong its usually a good sign that I should reconsider what I've been doing. Of course I'm just a meek ole liberal despite those two years in Vietnam so feel free to discount what I'm saying.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"