Is proof replacement uploading supposed to be this complicated?

jcdill

I'm baffled at the lack of feedback when trying to use the proof delay.

1) There's no indication what size the current image is. I don't have any way to tell if it will produce an "ok" print or a "great" print e.g. if they ordered an 8x10 and the image is 1600x2000 but I would prefer to have it printed from an image file that is 2400x3000. You KNOW what size image I uploaded, why aren't you showing this info to me so I can decide if it should be replaced?

2) There is no progress bar or "please wait" message when uploading a replacement image. Is it still uploading? Has it hung?

3) After uploading, there is no indication that the image has been replaced. If there are 10 items in the order and I've replaced 5, there's no way to tell WHICH 5 have been replaced. If I have to stop mid-way, I have to figure out some way to "remember" where I am because you don't provide me with information YOU have about what has and has not been done.

4) There is no indication what will happen if I replace an image twice with 2 different images - e.g. they ordered a mug and a print and I want to provide a specific file to be used on the mug. If I replace the image for the print, then replace the image for the mug, does this "replace" the image I just uploaded for the print, or is it specific for only the mug?

5) There is no way to bulk upload replacement images. One by one, waiting each time, is VERY time consuming.

6) The thumbnail shown in the order shows images with a watermark. I don't know if this is a watermark I applied to the proofs before I uploaded them (which I do sometimes, for certain uses), or if it's a watermark Smugmug applied to the images that are being displayed only. I *think* it's the Smugmug watermark, but since it's showing up on my proof thumbnails it leaves me with a very unsettled feeling that the products would be printed with the watermark on them! (Note, this gallery is not set to use a "printmark".)

The whole thing has a feeling of not really being designed with the event photographer's needs in mind, like something was just cobbled together and there was no testing or user feedback regarding the UI and workflow.

Previously I used a different hosting service that has a MUCH easier workflow for proofs and fulfillment for event photography. To start, I can upload proof size images, for a MUCH faster upload, but customers can still order large products (e.g. 16x20 on canvas) because the order will NOT be fulfilled until I upload the print-ready images. Then there's a bulk upload system where I can upload a batch of images in one step and it matches the uploaded filenames with images waiting for print-ready files. If there's a conflict (multiple items ordered from one image) I can assign the right file to the right item with just a few clicks.

To be fair, that other site had some problems with their proof/order workflow too. Then the owner helped a friend with uploading 50+ images to fulfill an order and discovered how clumsy the workflow was, and he immediately set out to streamline the workflow. My request to Smugmug - have one of your key people go out and WORK with an event photographer who needs a proof workflow, and help with the uploading and with fulfillment, and see where the system fails to run smoothly. When you have to eat your own dog food you will discover just how much it is lacking and how much it can be improved.

Allen

I'm not sure if this is correct but I thought when replacing a photo it replaces
the one in the gallery not just in the cart. So two different sizes, cup and
print, the last replace would apply for both.

jasonscottphoto

jcdill wrote: »

Previously I used a different hosting service that has a MUCH easier workflow for proofs and fulfillment for event photography. To start, I can upload proof size images, for a MUCH faster upload, but customers can still order large products (e.g. 16x20 on canvas) because the order will NOT be fulfilled until I upload the print-ready images.

Isn't that just like what you are talking about here at SM? Proof Delay?

jcdill wrote: »

Then there's a bulk upload system where I can upload a batch of images in one step and it matches the uploaded filenames with images waiting for print-ready files. If there's a conflict (multiple items ordered from one image) I can assign the right file to the right item with just a few clicks.

You can do all of that with SmugMug. Choose "Replace Multiple" in the order screen and it will be smart enough to replace images with the same file name.

http://www.smugmug.com/help/proof-retouch-replace

Andy

Allen wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is correct but I thought when replacing a photo it replaces
the one in the gallery not just in the cart. So two different sizes, cup and
print, the last replace would apply for both.

You are correct. I'm wondering if we need to be more clear about this.

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

5) There is no way to bulk upload replacement images. One by one, waiting each time, is VERY time consuming.

You can do this now - click the "replace multiples" link in your proof delay screen.
http://www.smugmug.com/help/proof-retouch-replace

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

I'm baffled at the lack of feedback when trying to use the proof delay.

1) There's no indication what size the current image is. I don't have any way to tell if it will produce an "ok" print or a "great" print e.g. if they ordered an 8x10 and the image is 1600x2000 but I would prefer to have it printed from an image file that is 2400x3000. You KNOW what size image I uploaded, why aren't you showing this info to me so I can decide if it should be replaced?

2) There is no progress bar or "please wait" message when uploading a replacement image. Is it still uploading? Has it hung?

3) After uploading, there is no indication that the image has been replaced. If there are 10 items in the order and I've replaced 5, there's no way to tell WHICH 5 have been replaced. If I have to stop mid-way, I have to figure out some way to "remember" where I am because you don't provide me with information YOU have about what has and has not been done.

4) There is no indication what will happen if I replace an image twice with 2 different images - e.g. they ordered a mug and a print and I want to provide a specific file to be used on the mug. If I replace the image for the print, then replace the image for the mug, does this "replace" the image I just uploaded for the print, or is it specific for only the mug?

5) There is no way to bulk upload replacement images. One by one, waiting each time, is VERY time consuming.

6) The thumbnail shown in the order shows images with a watermark. I don't know if this is a watermark I applied to the proofs before I uploaded them (which I do sometimes, for certain uses), or if it's a watermark Smugmug applied to the images that are being displayed only. I *think* it's the Smugmug watermark, but since it's showing up on my proof thumbnails it leaves me with a very unsettled feeling that the products would be printed with the watermark on them! (Note, this gallery is not set to use a "printmark".)

The whole thing has a feeling of not really being designed with the event photographer's needs in mind, like something was just cobbled together and there was no testing or user feedback regarding the UI and workflow.

Previously I used a different hosting service that has a MUCH easier workflow for proofs and fulfillment for event photography. To start, I can upload proof size images, for a MUCH faster upload, but customers can still order large products (e.g. 16x20 on canvas) because the order will NOT be fulfilled until I upload the print-ready images. Then there's a bulk upload system where I can upload a batch of images in one step and it matches the uploaded filenames with images waiting for print-ready files. If there's a conflict (multiple items ordered from one image) I can assign the right file to the right item with just a few clicks.

To be fair, that other site had some problems with their proof/order workflow too. Then the owner helped a friend with uploading 50+ images to fulfill an order and discovered how clumsy the workflow was, and he immediately set out to streamline the workflow. My request to Smugmug - have one of your key people go out and WORK with an event photographer who needs a proof workflow, and help with the uploading and with fulfillment, and see where the system fails to run smoothly. When you have to eat your own dog food you will discover just how much it is lacking and how much it can be improved.

JC, this is great feedback and I'm going to make sure our Product Manager and Sorcerers see this. You should know, that on our team in our company are working pros like you - we do eat our own dog food - and I have a feeling that we can help you with a few things in your workflow right now.

Like Allen said, if you have one image in an order that is for both a 4x6 and an 8x10 say, you replace that image ONCE and it's replaced for all items - you replace, and then use the crop tool for both items in the order.

If you are seeing a watermark on the thumbnails, it's because the gallery is set to apply them on upload to photos. Go to gallery settings and turn watermarking OFF if you do not want this. Of course, shoot me a link here and we'll be happy to validate the gallery settings for you.

mercphoto

affdigphotos wrote: »

Isn't that just like what you are talking about here at SM? Proof Delay?

No, its not, because proof delay for an event photographer is fundmentally broken and here's why.

At SM suppse I upload 600x900 images because its fast and I put them up for sale. Someone tries to buy an 8x10, a 16x20, or a 20x30. They get a warning about the file being too small. If they order a digital file they get it immediately, which m,aeans they get the small one.

I do the same where I am at and there is no customer warning about ordering a large print because my service correctly assumes if mproof delay is turned on that I purposefully uploaded a small, unfinished image. Ditto for digital file purchases, the customer won;'t get it until I uploadmthe bigger file.

jcdill

Andy wrote: »

JC, this is great feedback and I'm going to make sure our Product Manager and Sorcerers see this. You should know, that on our team in our company are working pros like you - we do eat our own dog food - and I have a feeling that we can help you with a few things in your workflow right now.

Can you point me to a gallery of one of your photographers who is an event photographer, so I can see how many photos they upload per event? I have a feeling that they aren't actually doing the type of event photography I'm talking about...

Like Allen said, if you have one image in an order that is for both a 4x6 and an 8x10 say, you replace that image ONCE and it's replaced for all items - you replace, and then use the crop tool for both items in the order.

This is insane. I have an order right now for a 16x24 canvas. I need to extend the image to cover the sides of the canvas without cutting off important parts of the image that need to be on the face of the canvas. If this client had also ordered a mug, then the resulting image on the mug would be too small. Plus, I don't WANT to replace the gallery image with the file I'm preparing for the canvas order. Again, it seems like you don't actually USE this feature or else you would have run up against it and realized how it doesn't really serve the right purpose.

If you are seeing a watermark on the thumbnails, it's because the gallery is set to apply them on upload to photos. Go to gallery settings and turn watermarking OFF if you do not want this. Of course, shoot me a link here and we'll be happy to validate the gallery settings for you.

What I WANT is for the image to be watermarked for display online, not for printing. For printing I would set a printmark (if I wanted one). Why would ANYONE want the print watermarked? Can you explain the workflow logic behind this?

jcdill

mercphoto wrote: »

no, its not, because proof delay for an event photographer is fundmentally broken and here's why.

At sm suppse i upload 600x900 images because its fast and i put them up for sale. Someone tries to buy an 8x10, a 16x20, or a 20x30. They get a warning about the file being too small. If they order a digital file they get it immediately, which m,aeans they get the small one.

I do the same where i am at and there is no customer warning about ordering a large print because my service correctly assumes if mproof delay is turned on that i purposefully uploaded a small, unfinished image. Ditto for digital file purchases, the customer won;'t get it until i uploadmthe bigger file.

exactly.

Allen

jcdill wrote: »

...
4) There is no indication what will happen if I replace an image twice with 2 different images - e.g. they ordered a mug and a print and I want to provide a specific file to be used on the mug. If I replace the image for the print, then replace the image for the mug, does this "replace" the image I just uploaded for the print, or is it specific for only the mug?
...

Allen wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is correct but I thought when replacing a photo it replaces the one in the gallery not just in the cart. So two different sizes, cup and print, the last replace would apply for both.

Andy wrote: »

...
Like Allen said, if you have one image in an order that is for both a 4x6 and an 8x10 say, you replace that image ONCE and it's replaced for all items - you replace, and then use the crop tool for both items in the order.
.

JC, you might have to look into the replace for cup and print. You end up using the same original for both, not what you wanted. The only way I can see to do this is create a enormous original with both images and crop each part for the different products. Then after order replace the original back to it's normal state.

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

What I WANT is for the image to be watermarked for display online, not for printing. For printing I would set a printmark (if I wanted one). Why would ANYONE want the print watermarked? Can you explain the workflow logic behind this?

JC, we never have and don't still, print watermarks on your print. SmugMug-created watermarks are for display only.

pilotdave

jcdill wrote: »

Plus, I don't WANT to replace the gallery image with the file I'm preparing for the canvas order. Again, it seems like you don't actually USE this feature or else you would have run up against it and realized how it doesn't really serve the right purpose.

I agree with you on this. The proof delay feature should allow us to choose a different image to fulfill the order instead of replacing the image. It should be an option. When you choose replace, you should be asked if you want to permanently replace the image on smugmug, or do you want to upload a different image to fulfill that particular product in that order. If someone orders a mug and a canvas print with the same image, we should be able to upload two different versions (if we want to). And the one in our gallery that the customer ordered shouldn't be touched, if we don't want it to be.

Dave

Allen

pilotdave wrote: »

... It should be an option. When you choose replace, you should be asked if you want to permanently replace the image on smugmug, or do you want to upload a different image to fulfill that particular product in that order....
Dave

clap

SteveM

jcdill wrote: »

Can you point me to a gallery of one of your photographers who is an event photographer, so I can see how many photos they upload per event? I have a feeling that they aren't actually doing the type of event photography I'm talking about...

Hi JC,

I'm Steve, one of SmugMug's working pros. I typically shoot events with images from 50 to 2000. Graduations, sporting events, anniversaries, etc. As an example, this gallery has 764 photos.

jcdill wrote: »

This is insane. I have an order right now for a 16x24 canvas. I need to extend the image to cover the sides of the canvas without cutting off important parts of the image that need to be on the face of the canvas. If this client had also ordered a mug, then the resulting image on the mug would be too small. Plus, I don't WANT to replace the gallery image with the file I'm preparing for the canvas order. Again, it seems like you don't actually USE this feature or else you would have run up against it and realized how it doesn't really serve the right purpose.

We do use the system, every day the same as you. Why? Because we do the same as you. We have been refining the system as we're able, and will continue to. Is it perfect right now? No, but we hope it will be and will continue to make improvements. In most cases, uploading a replacement image that's high resolution, with plenty of room to crop works great, and cropping can be done within the cart.

mercphoto

SteveM wrote: »

In most cases, uploading a replacement image that's high resolution, with plenty of room to crop works great, and cropping can be done within the cart.

And this is a good solution for the OP how exactly? Letting the customer crop in the shopping cart?

SteveM

mercphoto wrote: »

And this is a good solution for the OP how exactly? Letting the customer crop in the shopping cart?

During Proof Delay, you can adjust, or readjust the crop how you like.

jcdill

Andy wrote: »

JC, we never have and don't still, print watermarks on your print. SmugMug-created watermarks are for display only.

Then why do you SHOW the watermark on the thumbnail in the order review? This makes NO SENSE. The order review should show the image AS IT WILL BE PRINTED.

This is part of what makes the proof system maddening to use. The UI is completely unintuitive.

jcdill

SteveM wrote: »

As an example, this gallery has 764 photos.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the link.

I'm quite surprised you put 764 images in a SINGLE gallery with no keywords. That's really impossible for people to view. If they run a slideshow that shows each image for 5 seconds, it takes over an hour to view the entire gallery, and most of the photos will be of no interest to any single viewer. I find that most people lose interest within 5 minutes and never get to the back half of the gallery. Even if they just view the pages of thumbnails, you have 39 pages with 20 thumbnails each (at my particular monitor resolution). If it takes 10 seconds to load and view each page (assuming all the images download blazingly fast), that's 6.5 minutes JUST to scan all the thumbnails to try to find the images one wants to see.

I'd be very interested to see your sales statistics and see how many of the images you sell are from the first 50% of the photos in a gallery, versus the last 50%.

What type of network do you use that lets you upload 764 full-resolution photos in a timely fashion? I'm guessing you aren't uploading over the typical home ISP connection (slower upload, faster download), but instead utilizing the blazing fast speed of a network at work. (Or you have a blazing fast home connection as part of your employment at Smugmug.) How long does it take to upload that many images?

What happens if you are at an event and want to upload right away (e.g. each night) *from the event* so that people can view their photos the next day, when they would be most eager to see and purchase? Most events have pathetic bandwidth, most event hotels have pathetic bandwidth, etc. I've been asked to work at an event in Death Valley, and I estimate I'll shoot several thousand photos in one day. I don't think I'm going to find blazing fast upload speeds at the hotel in Death Valley.

Finally, what percent of those 764 images will be purchased? Why upload FULL RESOLUTION files for all 764 images when most of them will never be purchased? To me, this makes no sense.

I really want to love Smugmug, but I still think the tools for event photographers are not ready for prime time. :-( They don't take into consideration the actual working conditions for many event photographers. They don't take into consideration the time it takes to upload hundreds or thousands of full-size photos when most of them will never be used for anything other than viewing thumbnails or ~800 pixel images (with watermark) online.

jcdill

Andy wrote: »

If you are seeing a watermark on the thumbnails,

I'm talking about the thumbnails shown on the REVIEW ORDER PAGE. You should NOT DISPLAY watermarks on these images if the watermarks aren't going to be printed on the final product. That's the whole point of REVIEWING THE ORDER - to see the image AS IT WILL BE PROCESSED and sent to the lab. Duh?

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

What type of network do you use that lets you upload 764 full-resolution photos in a timely fashion? I'm guessing you aren't uploading over the typical home ISP connection (slower upload, faster download), but instead utilizing the blazing fast speed of a network at work. (Or you have a blazing fast home connection as part of your employment at Smugmug.)

Steve is not at SmugMug HQ. He's in Michigan, and uses a home connection.

JC, I'm in NY, and I use Cablevision's Ultra Service - 100Mbps down and 15Mbps up. FiOS from Verizon is fast, too. I couldn't imagine uploading hundreds/thousands of images a day (like I do) and not having the fastest possible internet connection available. What do you have?

mercphoto

Andy wrote: »

Steve is not at SmugMug HQ. He's in Michigan, and uses a home connection.

JC, I'm in NY, and I use Cablevision's Ultra Service - 100Mbps down and 15Mbps up. FiOS from Verizon is fast, too. I couldn't imagine uploading hundreds/thousands of images a day (like I do) and not having the fastest possible internet connection available. What do you have?

Did you read all of post #18, where your questions are answered?

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

I don't think I'm going to find blazing fast upload speeds at the hotel in Death Valley.

I can tell you from experience that you won't. It's passable but not great.

pilotdave

jcdill wrote: »

Then why do you SHOW the watermark on the thumbnail in the order review? This makes NO SENSE. The order review should show the image AS IT WILL BE PRINTED.

This is part of what makes the proof system maddening to use. The UI is completely unintuitive.

I couldn't find the thread quickly, but I remember that this was a specific feature request a few years ago. Originally there were no watermarks in the shopping cart. The problem someone discovered was that a non-watermarked version of the image could easily be stolen.

So smugmug added the watermark.

Dave

WinsomeWorks

jcdill wrote: »

Then why do you SHOW the watermark on the thumbnail in the order review? This makes NO SENSE. The order review should show the image AS IT WILL BE PRINTED.

This is part of what makes the proof system maddening to use. The UI is completely unintuitive.

I find this maddening too. Almost every person who's ordered prints from me has had to ask me about the watermarks, because they think what they see is what they get. SmugMug assumes it is not a problem because they aren't the ones getting the questions.... the questions come to the photog. They claim it's not a problem to people. Well, it is. Period. At the very least, we should have a choice about this. People worried about having tiny thumbs stolen are being ridiculous, imho. Who really cares about a thumb? I don't. It's also bad form that your very valid questions here are simply not getting answered fully.

Andy

jcdill wrote: »

I'm talking about the thumbnails shown on the REVIEW ORDER PAGE. You should NOT DISPLAY watermarks on these images if the watermarks aren't going to be printed on the final product. That's the whole point of REVIEWING THE ORDER - to see the image AS IT WILL BE PROCESSED and sent to the lab. Duh?

We won't show them if you don't set the preference of your watemarks to watermark thumbnails, JC.



You can also edit your watermarks in CP, Pros Tab:

Andy

WinsomeWorks wrote: »

I find this maddening too. Almost every person who's ordered prints from me has had to ask me about the watermarks, because they think what they see is what they get. SmugMug assumes it is not a problem because they aren't the ones getting the questions.... the questions come to the photog. They claim it's not a problem to people. Well, it is. Period. At the very least, we should have a choice about this. People worried about having tiny thumbs stolen are being ridiculous, imho. Who really cares about a thumb? I don't. It's also bad form that your very valid questions here are simply not getting answered fully.

You do have a choice. Thumbs can be watermarked or not, Anna Lisa. It's in the pro watermarking tool.

Andy

WinsomeWorks wrote: »

It's also bad form that your very valid questions here are simply not getting answered fully.

We never shy from any questions. This thread is getting attention from the company. And it will continue to do so. Thank you.

Andy

pilotdave wrote: »

I couldn't find the thread quickly, but I remember that this was a specific feature request a few years ago. Originally there were no watermarks in the shopping cart. The problem someone discovered was that a non-watermarked version of the image could easily be stolen.

So smugmug added the watermark.

Dave

There are no watermarks on the thumbs if you've set it that way.

Andy

To JC, the original poster - this is awesome feedback, and I've shared it a few times with the team. Are there unanswered questions that remain? I want to help with what's in place now, if you need it.

WinsomeWorks

Andy wrote: »

You do have a choice. Thumbs can be watermarked or not, Anna Lisa. It's in the pro watermarking tool.

I see the watermarks on your screen shot, Andy. And they're on mine as well, at every stage of my "buy" cart. I don't know where this tool is that you're talking about. I thought the only option for thumbnail watermarking (or not) was in gallery displays themselves, not in the "buy" cart. Right now, I can't even find that gallery tool. Could you tell me where to find both of these tools (the "buy" cart watermarking, as well as the gallery thumbs watermarking)? Thanks. [ETA: Sorry-- I did not see your earliest screenshots of the 'Make into watermark" page. But I'm quite sure I would have set those to "Thumbs: 'NO' ", and I do not show watermarks on my normal gallery display thumbs such as in SmugMug View. I don't think that pertains to the "Buy" cart, as I recall going through all this before. I'm terrified to edit my watermarks, as I've been through way too much re-watermarking. It seems very bizarre to me, no matter what this setting is really for, to set any thumbnail watermarking by the watermark itself, rather than by the gallery! ]

Allen

Those are not thumbnails in the cart but downsized display copies and they
DO show the watermark. This could be confusing to anyone buying a photo
not knowing if it will appear on the print. There needs to be an obvious notice
in the cart that they do not print. Just my thoughts.