Parent taking photos to share vs. sports photos to sell?

northcoast

Please let me know if this is the wrong forum to post these questions in...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I have gotten more serious this year about taking photos at the team sporting events my kids are involved in this year. The two activities are hockey and cheerleading. I invested in some good glass and with some continual practice feel that my images are much better than attempts from previous years. At the beginning of the season I felt that sharing with other parents was the "nice and polite" thing to do. I can say that the majority of images DO NOT have my child in them - at least for hockey. The parents do appreciate the time and effort, and, I feel they get enjoyment from the images.<o:p></o:p>
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The question is should I charge for my services and/or images that I produce? I don't for a single moment consider myself a professional (semi, part-time, wann-a-be, or otherwise). I read more than I post, and, I have seen in forums here and elsewhere about giving photos/services away. I understand that it may dilute your personal brand. When does one's branding start?<o:p></o:p>
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I had a conversation this past weekend with some parents about my images. They indicated that there are other parents they know -past and present - that do charge a nominal cost for images from their kid's sporting events. They also indicated that they were as good if not better than stuff they had purchased. (I asked for links so I could compare first hand.) I know that anything is only worth as much as what others are willing to pay. I also know that my personal enjoyment is different - both in personal preference and value. In other words, I could think something is a great shot and others may not; or, I could think something is not worth anything that someone else would gladly spend money to own.<o:p></o:p>
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How does one know if they should charge for the service or images? <o:p></o:p>
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Spring sports are going to start and I plan to do the same thing. I'll be shooting soccer and lacrosse...<o:p></o:p>
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Thanks in advance,<o:p></o:p>
-Mark

MDalby

There are times to charge and times to not charge. I did my first wedding for free because I didn't have experience at it and it was a friend and I wanted the experience. In sports, I do some pro bono work. I will do the photography portion of the 6'x8' banners for the HS boys/girls basketball squads this year for free but it will have my web site address and it will be good publicity. I have given some work for the schools trophy cases etc.

But, if your work starts to progress to the point that you are putting out a good product, that is when you should be charging. When it comes to the parents I charge. If you have a product that they cannot do for themselves, then they should be willing to pay for that service. Sometimes I do deals for parents that are strapped. I sold 12 posters on Saturday night. I had one parent that I knew was very tight financially and I could tell it was a stretch. I normally charge $45. She asked if I would take $40 and I told her $20 would do just fine.

zoomer

The best way to ruin a fun hobby is to start charging money for it.
My advice is to keep doing what you are doing, share with the other parents if you feel like it.

schlpic

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+1 to what Zoomer said.
There are start up costs, even if you'll jut be charging a few parents. Business license (if your state requires one--check your Dept of Rev), application for assumed name (dba) and publication in local newspaper of assumed name for the required length, etc. "Details" of business can begin to suck the fun out of your photography =(

JSPhotography

Checked out your site and you have some nice stuff. Looks like you have a pro account but you are listing at cost, at least your rink of dreams gallery. You are allready doing all the work. Print up some cards, adjust your pricing and start paying for that glass!!

Mitchell

I've been in the same boat for the past 5 years. I primarily shoot soccer and I've gotten pretty good at it after all this time.

I do not charge any of my children's teammates for photos. I take lots of photos of these games, and the players and parents all enjoy the pics. This gives me pleasure and is great team-building fun. My older daughter is on a traveling club team. The girls often look at Saturday photos during breakfast on Sunday to get pumped up before the games.

I do sell photos to the opposing teams. I have cards that I hand out if anyone is interested. I will usually speak to the other team Mom before the game and gauge if they have any interest. I also shoot action photos of the youngest soccer teams in our league. These kids are cute, and the parents are eager to buy these photos. Fortunately the season for these young kids is only 6 weeks.

Hope this helps. I don't feel right charging teammates. I've gotten some great gifts from other team parents along the way as "payment" for my services (old scotch, wine, dinner gift certificates, etc...) so I know I'm appreciated. The money I get from opposing teams does help me justify the expense of a $5000 lens, etc...

Toshido

You guys are lucky.


I take pictures of my kid at school plays and such. I provide the pictures for free to the other parents in a password protected gallery.
As a thank you I get them telling me that taking pictures of kids is illegal and threats to sue me

Personally I would do as Mitchell does. Free to teammates, charge everyone else.

mercphoto

Toshido wrote: »

You guys are lucky.


I take pictures of my kid at school plays and such. I provide the pictures for free to the other parents in a password protected gallery.
As a thank you I get them telling me that taking pictures of kids is illegal and threats to sue me

No good deed goes unpunished.

northcoast

JSPhotography wrote: »

Checked out your site and you have some nice stuff. Looks like you have a pro account but you are listing at cost, at least your rink of dreams gallery. You are allready doing all the work. Print up some cards, adjust your pricing and start paying for that glass!!

Actually, all the original jpegs can be downloaded without a fee. I still own the RAW files. If they choose to use a "buy" feature I don't expect anything in return. I had one parent make Christmas cards... That was cool.

They main reason I would consider making money would be to offset the cost of new glass or that new body. I would love to get the E-5 (yes, I am using Olympus). I think it will have better ISO, DR, faster focus and faster frames/second than my E-620. Just not sure if the camera alone would produce better images. $2K for a new body (including the grip and extra batteries) for a professional is considered cost of just doing business. Sorry - off topic!

The thought to charge didn't cross my mind until just recently. I appreciate all the responses. It does help me to keep some perspective. I don't want it to ever be a job where I feel that I have to do it. I'd like to continue to just sit and watch a game without being asked if I got that shot/save that "junior" made. As it stands right now, I have close to 900 images to process for hockey games. It does take some time to do a good job.

I do know that my wife and other Cheer Moms have purchased packages for Cheer events that my shots are almost as good. I don't have all those galleries uploaded.

I guess I never thought my stuff was good enough to sell...

Glort

[QUOTE=northcoast;1561996 I don't for a single moment consider myself a professional (semi, part-time, wann-a-be, or otherwise). <o:p></o:p>
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How does one know if they should charge for the service or images? <o:p></o:p>
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The minute you take money for your work you are considered professional and that brings a lot of expectations and beliefs with it.

I 110% agree, you want to ruin the fun of a hobby, make it your work.
I used to shoot the otehr kids on my sons baseball team years ago and it became a PITA. You were too busy " working" to sit and enjoy the game and any relaxation time and then you would come home and have to sort the pics and muck around.

The problem with giving the shots away is it's difficult to start charging for them as you have set up an expectation.
OTOH, if you don't want the pressures of having to deliver a certain standard of product and dealing with customers ( which is entirely what you will do when you take money) then don't do it.

The 3rd option to the yes or no is just take pics of your own kid and be done with it.

What I'm doing this year is just shooting some pics here and there when I feel like it of the other kids and I'll drop them all on a disk and give them to the kids at the end of the season at presentation day.

MileHighAko

I started photography last fall just to get good shots of my kids. Other parents love my shots, and I sold over 500 prints. Not one complaint, but lots of thanks and gratitude came my way. My prices are set to offset the cost of lens rentals for the gymnastics meets. I bought my own lens this holiday so I'll be upping my prices a bit to compensate. Trust me, if parents want their on photos they'll bring their own camera. If they want my pictures, they're happy to pay the small price for prints, and I've sold a handful of digital copies for $12 (my base price). I can't complain.

My advice: take as many good shots as you can, put them online, and if people want to buy them they will, otherwise, enjoy the game.

northcoast

JSPhotography wrote: »

Checked out your site and you have some nice stuff.

Thank you!

northcoast

Toshido wrote: »

I take pictures of my kid at school plays and such. I provide the pictures for free to the other parents in a password protected gallery.
As a thank you I get them telling me that taking pictures of kids is illegal and threats to sue me

That's my concern with the Cheerleading, Dance and Figure Skating! There always seems to be one that doesn't want the pics out there. My duaghter is a center flyer and it's hard not to get the rest of the team in the shot.

tjl1388

northcoast wrote: »

That's my concern with the Cheerleading, Dance and Figure Skating! There always seems to be one that doesn't want the pics out there. My duaghter is a center flyer and it's hard not to get the rest of the team in the shot.

You folks must have some "unique" parents. I've been shooting competive cheerleading for going on 4yrs now and not once have I had a parent ask me to so much as lock my galleries.

In regards to the original post, I'll say this.

EVERYTHING gets more complicated when you sell your stuff. Parents will ask for shots...some will pay, some won't. The fiscal dynamic changes completely how you shoot things. I find my lens will tend to gravitate towards girls with parents that traditionally pay....and I have no problem admitting that's the way I work. No matter how good the picture is, if the parent won't pay for it, it's a waste of time.

I do it a little different than most since I still really enjoy what I do and live for the challenge of getting "the shot". I pride myself on being able to getting any shot a parent pays me to get. I keep my prices low so that every monetary dynamic can afford my services.

No matter what, enjoy it.

mercphoto

Glort wrote: »

The minute you take money for your work you are considered professional and that brings a lot of expectations and beliefs with it.

I 110% agree, you want to ruin the fun of a hobby, make it your work.

Ditto. Whether you want to charge or not is going to depend on just how much do you really want to do this? If you start charging parents will expect more. YOU will expect more. You will need to really concentrate on making sure you get pictures of everyone, not accidentally skipping over someone. On making sure your quality gets higher and higher. Etc. And depending on how often you are able to do this you may find that you don't bring in enough profit to pay for gear like you think you can.

4-5 years ago I was able to shoot two to three races per month. When I had that type of volume I brought in enough profit to pay for toys like a 300/2.8 lens and a 1-series body. These days I'm lucky to cover one per month, and only about 7-8 total through the year, and I'm only doing relatively small events. At volumes like this I'm lucky to profit enough to cover a pro-sumer body. Days of 2.8 super-tele lenses are behind me. My own expectations of my photography business have had to change as a result. And if I did not realize this I would have been frustrated due to not meeting unrealistic expectations.

And that might be the big hurdle to climb if you decide to start charging. What can you expect to get in sales and profits? How much work is this going to turn into for you? How much time and effort can you realistically budget for this endeavor?

torags

northcoast wrote: »

Actually, all the original jpegs can be downloaded without a fee. I still own the RAW files. If they choose to use a "buy" feature I don't expect anything in return. I had one parent make Christmas cards... That was cool.

They main reason I would consider making money would be to offset the cost of new glass or that new body. I would love to get the E-5 (yes, I am using Olympus). I think it will have better ISO, DR, faster focus and faster frames/second than my E-620. Just not sure if the camera alone would produce better images. $2K for a new body (including the grip and extra batteries) for a professional is considered cost of just doing business. Sorry - off topic!

The thought to charge didn't cross my mind until just recently. I appreciate all the responses. It does help me to keep some perspective. I don't want it to ever be a job where I feel that I have to do it. I'd like to continue to just sit and watch a game without being asked if I got that shot/save that "junior" made. As it stands right now, I have close to 900 images to process for hockey games. It does take some time to do a good job.

I do know that my wife and other Cheer Moms have purchased packages for Cheer events that my shots are almost as good. I don't have all those galleries uploaded.

I guess I never thought my stuff was good enough to sell...

I think most acquaintances expect to get the goods free.

From a marketing perspective, I would engage the coach. Make a deal to contribute a portion of the sales to the school equipment fund.

A few things happen:
1. The coach is your fan & salesman
2. The school benefits
3. You create a third party (the fund) that can psychologically "prevent" you from giving away & make free loaders guilty about asking
4. You will get more sales because of the "good" cause
5. If sales are slow, joke with the coach about talking the pix up
6. Make sure you do contribute or you're toast.

just my .02

MileHighAko

tjl1388 wrote: »

I find my lens will tend to gravitate towards girls with parents that traditionally pay....and I have no problem admitting that's the way I work. No matter how good the picture is, if the parent won't pay for it, it's a waste of time.

+1. I know which parents are going to buy from me, and I make sure to get a few really good shots of their kids. I'll post process and crop knowing that they're going to be buying, and I have been thanked before, "thanks Adam for the special crop you made of our son". Once I see someone making orders, the next game I'm well aware to focus on their kid.

torags wrote: »

I think most acquaintances expect to get the goods free.

Not in my world. My friends value my skills and are more than happy to pay for the goods. I had one parent ask me what more she could do to repay me for the great photos, saying that she felt that the price I charged wasn't enough. We're really good friends with this couple, and of anyone I'd be willing to give her everything for free, but she respects what I'm doing enough to not only not expect it, but to want to support it.

The first poster I made I did for free for one of the parents. I gave it to him at practice and he was amazed. He immediately pulled out his wallet and asked what he could pay me, and I declined. I told him it was my first one and I wanted to learn how to do it. From that moment I had other parents ask what it would cost to get one, and I sold several. Nobody was unhappy or felt like I was ripping them off or what not.

I think every social group might approach these situations differently. I'm lucky because in my area people are very respectful and simply happy for the opportunity to purchase high quality prints of their young athletes.

aj986s

I participate and shoot at a fair number of car events (autox's, DE's, races, shows, etc). I make stuff available to friends & participants. What I've started doing is to upload a reasonably sized JPEG to my SmugMug site. But then limit the available view sizes to Small, Medium & Large. I allow folks to "Save Pic As" from these views, including a watermark, for free. However, if they want a better quality pic, they can purchase a "personal use download copy" for a nominal amount, which provides them more resolution and no watermark. I haven't agressively marketed (yet....) but get occasional downloads, in addtion to occasional prints.

johng

Some good food for thought here. Now, here's another thing you need to be aware of: If you're selling images off smugmug then tax form are automatically filed. So, Uncle Sam will want his 28% (on top of the % smugmug takes of your profits). Then if you look at the time you invest shooting and editing it becomes tough to justify just charging a couple bucks for a shot. If you're going to start charging a decent rate so you can actually make money for gear, you have to be prepared for something else new:
Lots of people love your shots when they get them for free. Paying for them on the other hand - suddenly they're less interested. So, prepare your ego for that. IMO, I would suggest offering DVD sales to parents on your team. Just shoot what you're going to shoot anyway and offer up a DVD at the end (get 1/2 up front). That way you don't have the printing & shipping costs and smugmug eating your profits.

northcoast

I appreciate all the responses. A friend at work gave me another point of view: He asked if I would rather be thought of as a starting professional or a better than average parent photographer? I'm back to enjoying the hobby, capture the memories, even getting some nice shots and I'll earn my money at my day job. Now, if I can learn and improve along the way then all the better.

I think it was the taxes that put it into reality. Then considering the P/L, insurance, contracts, angry parents, small profit margins, etc... it makes it a business. That all sounds like work to me. I think I started this all for fun?



Thanks again for sharing your perspectives.

I have two games to shoot this weekend and a cheer competition next weekend.:D

Glort

northcoast wrote: »

That all sounds like work to me. I think I started this all for fun?

That always makes me laugh.
People enjoy something as a hobby/ passtime/relaxation so they want to make it their work.
Work is work and one business requires the same basic input and has the same basic difficulties and problems as any other.

I think getting into a businees because you like doing something is the worst reason in the world of all to do it.

jonh68

Glort wrote: »

That always makes me laugh.
People enjoy something as a hobby/ passtime/relaxation so they want to make it their work.
Work is work and one business requires the same basic input and has the same basic difficulties and problems as any other.

I think getting into a businees because you like doing something is the worst reason in the world of all to do it.

I enjoy photography and it is what I do for a living. If I am going to have the same basic difficulties, might as well be with something I love to do.

ic4u

A friend of mine shoots both of her boys team sports and keeps them in a protected gallery for the parents only to purchase, and she has it set up so that any profit goes directly back to the team, I thought that was a pretty good idea

mercphoto

Glort wrote: »

I think getting into a businees because you like doing something is the worst reason in the world of all to do it.

Well, I guess I should have never got into programming computers as a career then.

kdog

mercphoto wrote: »

Well, I guess I should have never got into programming computers as a career then.

Sorry, no enjoying your work! That's not allowed! :whip

northcoast

kdog wrote: »

Sorry, no enjoying your work! That's not allowed! :whip

I do enjoy my work and I have a passion for it. I get a different kind of enjoyment from photography. I'm sure that I'm not the first person in this situation. The dialogue and discussion has been great. It's made me think...

austinado16

Excellent thread topic.

Like many here, I started with the intent of shooting my daughter and getting some great gymnastics sports shots of her. I didn't like the work of the local sports photog, and wasn't super amazed at the examples I saw posted in the kiosks by the photos at other meets. Not saying they weren't good shots, or that their collage posters weren't good. I just didn't see how they were worth what was being asked. No offense intended to those of you who do this for a living; I'm a big DIYer, so when I look at a collage poster for $300, I can't help but think to myself, "I'm pretty sure I could do that if I spent $80 on PSE-8 and played around with it for a few hours. Plus, when done, I'll have a cool skill, and I can make more." Needless to say, I felt the same way about taking sports shots. Sure, there was going to be some money spent up front, but vs. $20 for one 5x7 from a pro, I figured I'd more than break even, just in the first year.

I originally didn't have the intent to shoot other team members. It just sort of developed out of a want to be nice to the other team families who couldn't afford a camera, and/or lacked the skill to take the photos. I was shooting all 9 girls on the team, at every meet, coming home with 700-1,000 photos, processing them all and burning everyone a CD containing 30-50 full resolution images. I even gave all 9 girls 20x30 collages, plus 2 more girls from another level that weren't part of our team. These were big custom posters that were all artistally designed to suit the specific girl and her style. I also made huge team photos and other "atta girl" posters that were hung up all over the gym.

The fall out? I had a lot of "new best friends" who were more than happy to accept my free CD's and my posters, but at any other time, didn't have 2 words to say to me, let alone a simple "hello." One family called the gym and complained that the gym should enact and enforce a policy of "No taking pictures of other people's kids." and tell me to stop doing it. One family specifically requested that I stay for a different session, shoot their daughter, and they'd trade me a custom made leotard (the wife made our team leos, and sold her custom made leos in our gym's store).......3yrs later, I've still not seen that leo, but I did get shown the 1/2" thick full glossy photo hard cover "book" that the mom made for the daughter using all of my shots. When the parents of the ACRO team asked me to shoot their one "in-house" meet, I handed each of them a business card stating that a CD full of photos would be $100 and a collage would be $200, I got acused, after the meet, of trying to run a business out of the gym (like I was stabbing the gym owner in the back or something) and not one of the 13 families ordered a CD, even after I stayed and shot all 13 team (29 girls).

That all happened in just the first 8mos of owning my gear! Did I learn my lesson for season #2? Sort of. I only shot our daughter, but I did take a team photo, on the podium, after each meet. I had these printed out 8x10 and gave them to each girl. For the home meet, I shot the entire team (only 5 girls this year) and gave the girls a CD with about 40-50 photos. Only 2 team photos were blown up to 20x30 and put on the gym walls.

Fortunately, at the end of this past season we moved to a much better gym. Regardless, I won't be shooting the other girls unless I'm specifically asked by a parent. If I am asked, I'll hand them my card......and if they want me to proceed after seeing my prices, I will.

zoomer

My short history. PHotography was a hobby, my nieces convinced me to shoot their weddings. My niece convinced me to start a wedding photography business with her.
I worked my @$$ off for 3 years, made a bunch of money of which I gave half of it to the government in taxes. Photography became drudgery, unrewarding because I did not have time for my creative projects.
Now I am in the process of going back to the hobby and getting pretty much out of the business.
Photography is fun again.

aktse

Excellent thread.

I think most people in the gray area find themselves with this exact dilemma and in the end, you have to determine what you're comfortable with.

I just hope in the process, you don't forget why you started shooting in the first place...

mercphoto

My take after 5 years of this, if you turn this into a small, tiny business it can become a self-supporting hobby. Its where I'm at now, doing 6-8 events a year and turning a small profit after taxes and expenses. And its all my current expectation is. Its working out well for me and my current life, farmily and social committments. Its a lot of fun, but I'm still selling, making a small profit, and not giving anything away. And it interferes little with the rest of my life.

If you turn this into a medium sized business, doing at least one big event per month, if not 2 or 3, then it becomes a lot of work and you start expected a reasonably high profit in order to justify the new gear, let alone all the time you pour into it. Then you try to balance this with the day job and your family/social obligations. This is where I was in 2005-2007. I would have a hard time with that today unless the profit levels were much higher than I had back then.

Then things change again if it becomes a serious business that starts generating enough volume and revenue that it becomes a big percentage of your total income and you start considering it as a primary source of income rather than a suppliment. I never got to this point nor wanted to.

jonh68

Something to consider is when you get to a level skill wise, you cross over into competing with pros who do this for a living, even if you give your stuff away. When you start to give out stuff, it becomes expected. You may have to work just as hard doing it for free because you will need to keep up with emails, and you will have extra pictures to process etc. If you think it would be hard doing this for money, the resentment you start to feel may be worse once you become the unofficial photographer of the team. Every photo op that comes along you will be expected to do. If you enjoy it that's fine, but you will be known as the camera guy and you will be asked at every event to take special pictures.