Since the introduction of the 20D, I've been shooting my children and kids at the local high school pro bono. I am a former news photog and I am confident that not only are the images of professional quality, but people would pay for the images. The pro bono for images of my children's teammates, is because we are all on the same team ... there should be a spirit of comradeship on and off the field. If a teammate picks up your child and takes them to practice or a game, would you expect them to charge you a "taxi" fee ... if you forgot water and your child is dying of thirst ... et cetera. I also shot for the local high school, again pro bono because I feel it is the right thing to do. I make a lot of families happy ... and my images instantly appear all over the kids facebook ... no copyright covering their faces ... no waiting for the check to clear ... everybody gets the photos based upon participation not disposable income.
You posted here seeking validation for an action, while legally not wrong ... certainly would not be used as an example of Mark's generosity or of you taking the high road. You have an opportunity of being viewed as money hungry or being magnanimous. Your call.
A picture may be worth a thousand words ... but they may also be worth a thousand smiles.
Gary
PS- If you take the high road, remember that 99% of the recipients of your generosity will not have a clue to the time and effort required to shoot and process all the images ... again the word magnanimous comes to mind.
G
PPS- Not that it makes a difference in this thread or your choice, but last week alone I shot a soccer match, basketball game and the Whitney High School Talent Show.
G
DO NOT GET CAUGHT WITH YOUR PANTS DOWN... Check the Camera forum about a guy that had images on his website for sale, but found out after his equipment was stolen that it was NOT covered by his home owners insurance because he "SOLD IMAGES" on his website making him a "professional" in the eyes of the insurance company. If you do this, MAKE SURE you talk to your insurance agent. If they don't have a clue, MAKE them contact the Underwriter at the Ins. Headquarters to get EXPLICIT verification of what is and is not covered.
Well... You guys have more disposable income than I have. In order to provide a decent product, it takes quite an investment in gear, monopods, flashes, umbrellas, light stands, clamps, glass, software on and on as all of you know.
If I can break even and have the few dollars I charge help cover the cost of improved gear to upgrade the quality of the product that we are putting out for the families that they could never get without someone making the investment, I don't think there is anything wrong that approach.
Sure, the best approach is that someone has all this gear and time and is independently wealthy and retired and can do all that. But, I am doing this to learn, improve my skill sets, try to be better at this hobby and while doing it. also help the high schools and paper have proper exposure to the kids events and memories etc.
I think we can charge and still be a good person and help the community by doing pro bono work and help the teams with free individual shots for the web sites, trophy case banquets etc
Nikon D4, 400 2.8 AF-I, 70-200mm 2.8 VR II, 24-70 2.8
CBS Sports MaxPreps Shooter http://DalbyPhoto.com
For the equipment insurance deal about selling pictures, I pay 20 bucks a month with 100 dollar deductible for 9000 dollars insurance on all my gear and laptop at replacement price. I am listed on my rider to my homeowners as a hobbyist, this is a legal description which says that I derive less than 30% of my annual income from it. That is the standard test that most companies use, my rider includes damages and theft. If you are going to a bunch of different things it is the cheapest insurance to replace your equipment, I added card readers CF cards, power supplies batteries you name it. Anything in my bag that is of value.
I started out about 5 or 6 years ago taking pictures of my own kids dancing and moved up to shoot local HS sports and dance and have been selling them for the past 3 years or so. I have gotten to know a bunch of great photographers in my area that have helped me out learning and vice versa. That is one of the cool things about taking pictures, getting to know your local shooters and helping out and even getting some more work. I have been able to help shooting College FB, track and Basketball.
Selling pictures to the school for banquets and such is a great help to the High Schools. If they need me to show up they email me in advance to see if I am available for them, I shoot for 2 or 3 High schools in my area and 1 predominately. My kids don't go there but the parents know me and by pictures from time to time. I also give pictures to Yearbook staffs at those schools for the yearbook to help them out as needed. One HS I shoot for went to States in Girls VB and I was able to shoot the games for them, the kids on the Yearbook and Newspaper staffs didn't want to shoot but cheer on their classmates so all the pictures in the Yearbook for their adventure are mine. The AD at the HS provides me with a pass so I don't pay for home or away games and playoff passes if needed.
I have days where I don't want to go because I really don't like the sport, I shoot a few games of each sport each year some more than others and post them on my site. I have never had any parent say they didn't want me taking pictures of their kids, quite the contrary they usually tell me they leave their camera at home or in the bag when they see me at the event. They get to watch the game and know I will get way better shots than theirs (their wording) and they can enjoy kids playing their game/sports.
The funniest part of all of this, the parents that want me to take a picture of this or that and get a picture of this for them usually buy nothing, you learn to nod your head a go on. That is life photography is what you make of it and enjoy. Selling pictures is not a one size fits all just like anything else, find your place and what you like and go with it.. Then in the back of your head think about how many pictures you took digitally and how much those rolls of 36 35mm film would weigh if you had to carry them around and pay for developing..
You posted here seeking validation for an action, while legally not wrong ... certainly would not be used as an example of Mark's generosity or of you taking the high road. You have an opportunity of being viewed as money hungry or being magnanimous. Your call.
A picture may be worth a thousand words ... but they may also be worth a thousand smiles.
Gary
Point taken. I have posted just over 1000 images this season. I have another 800-900 to edit that may yield 400-500 more. I figure that I'll have over 2000 edited images at the end of the hockey season. I hope I'd get a smile or two or a thousand!
I do hope that it doesn't become an expectation from parents. I have only been asked once thus far "Did you get Junior's top shelf wrist shot?" I politely replied no and that I was watching the game and saw it.
I made my personal validation that I should keep it a fun hobby based on a lot of insight this thread has generated.
I do want to thank everyone for keeping this post out of the weeds. I wasn't sure what to expect or even "if" I should be posting it.
Point taken. I have posted just over 1000 images this season. I have another 800-900 to edit that may yield 400-500 more. I figure that I'll have over 2000 edited images at the end of the hockey season. I hope I'd get a smile or two or a thousand!
I do hope that it doesn't become an expectation from parents. I have only been asked once thus far "Did you get Junior's top shelf wrist shot?" I politely replied no and that I was watching the game and saw it.
I made my personal validation that I should keep it a fun hobby based on a lot of insight this thread has generated.
I do want to thank everyone for keeping this post out of the weeds. I wasn't sure what to expect or even "if" I should be posting it.
Thanks again!
The only way it doesn't is if you do not hand them out or give links to your gallery. It's going to happen if you are good, and expect someone to ask about shooting other stuff too.
If there are 50 other parents there snapping off photos, then sharing them among each other, why would anyone want to buy photos, unless your offering something extra unique that they would want to buy, or your locally famous photographer.
You also have other options though, you could contact local newspapers about contributing to there sports section, you could also try contributing photojournalist articles. You could also offer to take sports portraits at a low cost. You could continue giving away the game shots for free, and advertise for sports portraits on the same page. I am sure there are many ways to get your photos out there and make some money, you just have to think outside the box. I am sure that all the other parents taking photos would not be doing those things with there photos, so your only competition would be with the other local photographers. You could also try finding another local sports photographer to try to team up with. If they already got something established, you could offer to help or be a second photographer for them. Two photographers working together are almost always going to get better shots then one photographer trying to run around doing it all themself.
There are many different ways to keep it a hobby will still making some money. You can also sell some prints or whatever to make money, without making it a business. Its considered a hobby if your not making a profit. If you already have a job that you used to pay for your equipment, using the money you make from photography to pay for your equipment, means your not making a profit, and if your sales per print are low, you can also consider yourself a artist.
another way you could make some money, you could offer to give basic photography lessons to all the other parents taking photos, who are usually using there dSLR in full auto mode
There probably isnt to many people locally offering this sort of service, so you might have a monopoly in potentially teaching the other parents. Maybe offer lessons before the game, when the parents are child free
Ive been at this for awhile and I dont give anything away. I shoot my kids teams as well as the entire soccer club and tournaments as a private photograher. The parents on my kids teams have to pay like everyone else. They can look all they want but if they want prints.....I do give 20% of the net for the club shots to the club because they have my site embedded and do most of the marketing for me. The private sessions is a cash business.
As stated your product does have to be better than that of the average parent and it takes a significant investment in gear to pull it off. Yes the photographer makes a difference in the images but a great photograher produces far better images with superlative gear like a MKIV and 400 2.8 than those with a T2i with a 70-300.
I like to shoot sports. I'll choose events that I want/able to shoot. I'm still at a point where I shoot what I want and enjoy doing it. If I can make a feel sales on the side, all the better.
I'm probably a bit different; I bought my equipment as an investment rather than as a hobbiest, all the way back when I bought my first DSLR- an XTi. Shooting on spec is as close to shooting for a hobby as I got since there was no guarantee of pay, but I no longer shoot on spec. I find that I really enjoy shooting when money is on the line- the added pressure of needing to perform is just what I need to get the best work out of me.
Great thread. Just my opinion (of which I will give freely and not charge)
I would just keep doing what you are doing. Enjoy it as a hobby, but at the end of the season (if there is some type of banquet). Print about $100, or whatever your comfortable with, worth of prints and place them on a table for parents to view. If they want those prints ask for a donation. The donation helps pay a little for something you enjoy and it is fun for the kids/parents to look at all the pictures. You can even give a percentage back to the school/organization. You still get the enjoyment of photography and may be able to make a little cash for your efforts. Even if you only get a few donations it should be enough to cover the print costs. You can also let everyone know there are digital downloads available on your site. Charge a nominal fee so parents still think they are getting a great deal and you still make a little $$$.
Is your work worthless?
I guess you need to consider several things. First do you want to get more lenses and better cameras as time goes on. If you do not need the money to pay for equipment you can give your work away. I would suggest you see what Pros charge for the work you are giving away and tell parents that is what you are going to charge and have them make out a check to the charity of your choice. Or maybe a college fund for your children?
Many parents put no value on photos because of parents giving away their work. Pro Photographers spend their life trying to earn a living. If your pictures are good, parents should understand that you have invested time and money to produce them. So I guess the question you need to ask yourself is, do your pictures have any value or is your work worthless?
If you like giving away money please meet me at the gas station.
Please let me know if this is the wrong forum to post these questions in...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I have gotten more serious this year about taking photos at the team sporting events my kids are involved in this year. The two activities are hockey and cheerleading. I invested in some good glass and with some continual practice feel that my images are much better than attempts from previous years. At the beginning of the season I felt that sharing with other parents was the "nice and polite" thing to do. I can say that the majority of images DO NOT have my child in them - at least for hockey. The parents do appreciate the time and effort, and, I feel they get enjoyment from the images.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The question is should I charge for my services and/or images that I produce? I don't for a single moment consider myself a professional (semi, part-time, wann-a-be, or otherwise). I read more than I post, and, I have seen in forums here and elsewhere about giving photos/services away. I understand that it may dilute your personal brand. When does one's branding start?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I had a conversation this past weekend with some parents about my images. They indicated that there are other parents they know -past and present - that do charge a nominal cost for images from their kid's sporting events. They also indicated that they were as good if not better than stuff they had purchased. (I asked for links so I could compare first hand.) I know that anything is only worth as much as what others are willing to pay. I also know that my personal enjoyment is different - both in personal preference and value. In other words, I could think something is a great shot and others may not; or, I could think something is not worth anything that someone else would gladly spend money to own.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How does one know if they should charge for the service or images? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Spring sports are going to start and I plan to do the same thing. I'll be shooting soccer and lacrosse...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Thanks in advance,<o:p></o:p> -Mark
Short answer: I am going to offer a consolidated disk with the edited jpegs and printing rights for this past hockey season. I will charge a small fee per disk. They can download singles of this season for free.
My reasoning: I didn't level-set any expectaions for fees at the start of the season. In fact, one could argue that the expectation of "free" was set from the beginning.
Therefore, I will use this season as a learning experience. I feel my photography did better, my post processing got better, and I have a portfolio to pick from to make a good representitive sample gallery. Next season I can put together a package - i.e. pics on disk, individual poster and year book. I'll work on pre-season sale to the team and level-set up front. For the three teams I am shooting this year it comes out to 45 skaters. At even $40 to $100 each for a nice package at the end of next season - that would make a nice gift back to me for time taking the images and countless hours in PP. Next thing I need to do is put together a nice poster and year book (e.g. of my son). Then I can show my work to others. I get positive comments all the time on the simple calendar that I have up at work...
I do want to keep it a hobby. I do struggle with knowing if my work is good enough... It's the best I can do today and I'm proud to share. Sure, it's good enough for me. But to accept money for my work makes me a bit more critical.
I plan to shoot soccer and lacrosse in the spring. I don't have any experience with either. So another opportunity to learn and grow...
I think you are doing the smartest thing in regard to not charging this season for the reasons you specify. It may also be to your long term advantage to get your work out there so people can see what you do and build desire to purchase it next season.
Think of it as a loss leader promotion. Your in business Now!
For the next season, I'd consider doing an all up offer. tell the team/ parents you will do them a deal where you provide everyone a disk for say $25 on an entire team basis OR you will provide X disks ( one for every player) for say $400 and let them decide who wants in. Obviously the more that want one the less they each pay. That way if someone opts out you don't have to worry about someone else copying and giving it to them but I would just state it's on an all in, x number basis anyway or the proce goes up.
6 of 1 , half a dozen of the other, use whichever you feel will work best.
I would be going one of these routes because in my experience, you will be Very lucky to get 100% buy rate otherwise and I'd expect a fair bit lower take up myself. Also suggest that the players can pay say $5 a week extra on their game fees till the per player cost is paid off.
I find with shooting sports, after you have done a couple the rest become a lot easier as you get your eye in for the timing. It also helps to watch some games even on TV to know what they are going to do and and be able to have an objective look at where the best shots are going to be.
Don't worry if your work is good enough. It will be because you are trying to do well and that's enough. Your shooting for parents not SI.
Do your best and be happy. It will be way above what the parents expect or can do themselves. You very well may at some time get parents saying something to the effect of they think a shot ( probably out of 500) could be better but if you showed them a bunch of the best sports shots through history you'd still get people having a whinge.
That will happen, don't sweat it when it does.
I was going through my events computer last night and found a folder where we copied the shots off a good clients card and put them on disk to free it up for her after she had forgotten to transfer the pics and had no space on to shoot anything at a weekend event. Looking at her pics she takes with a decent SLR and a reasonable long lens, Suffice to say I understand why she is still a good client of ours!
Many parents put no value on photos because of parents giving away their work. Pro Photographers spend their life trying to earn a living. If your pictures are good, parents should understand that you have invested time and money to produce them. So I guess the question you need to ask yourself is, do your pictures have any value or is your work worthless?
Maybe I run in different circles, but I respectfully challenge the conventional wisdom of value having anything to do with price. I mainly shoot High School dance and theatre and for various reasons, I have so far chosen to provide my photos free of charge. My experience is that most parents put tremendous value in my photos of their kids. The sincere thanks from parents, teachers, and administrators; the prints hanging in prominent areas of their homes; and especially, the repeated and heartfelt thanks (and occasional tears of joy) from students suggests that my photos are far from worthless.
It is a personal decision on whether to charge and how much to charge. I respectfully disagree that the price reflects value in any way.
Maybe I run in different circles, but I respectfully challenge the conventional wisdom of value having anything to do with price.
...
It is a personal decision on whether to charge and how much to charge. I respectfully disagree that the price reflects value in any way.
Rick - "value" has more to do with what they are WILLING to pay. Not what you charge. While I'm sure your photography is excellent, you may be surprised how many of those parents who offer heartfelt thanks suddenly stop using your photos when it's $10 instead of free. There are always some parents who do value photographs enough to pay for them.
Think of it this way - lots of people at the market or food court gladly accept a free sample and offer thanks and they are greatful for that free hand-out. But that doesn't mean they're going to buy the product.
Now, of course, for sake of discussion, we remove people who cannot afford luxury items like photo purchases.
Now - if your "customers" are giving you free tax services or free automobile repairs or free dentist or legal work in exchange for the photos then it's easy to judge the fact they value the product as much as their own products/services which are deemed to have monetary value. So, since you brought it up - how many of your clients that have professional products/services give you those products/services at no charge in exchange for the free product you give them? Or is the value they place on their professional product/service higher than the value they place on yours?
Rick - "value" has more to do with what they are WILLING to pay. Not what you charge. While I'm sure your photography is excellent, you may be surprised how many of those parents who offer heartfelt thanks suddenly stop using your photos when it's $10 instead of free. There are always some parents who do value photographs enough to pay for them.
Think of it this way - lots of people at the market or food court gladly accept a free sample and offer thanks and they are greatful for that free hand-out. But that doesn't mean they're going to buy the product.
Now, of course, for sake of discussion, we remove people who cannot afford luxury items like photo purchases.
Now - if your "customers" are giving you free tax services or free automobile repairs or free dentist or legal work in exchange for the photos then it's easy to judge the fact they value the product as much as their own products/services which are deemed to have monetary value. So, since you brought it up - how many of your clients that have professional products/services give you those products/services at no charge in exchange for the free product you give them? Or is the value they place on their professional product/service higher than the value they place on yours?
This doesn't really apply because Mark is not a professional photographer under the same definition you are using for the other professions. On my teams the parents were happy to provided free professional advice.
Not everything should or needs to be valued by money. The less emphasis we place on money and the more we place on other considerations and values ... the better our community would be.
When there was a pot luck or get together the parents always let me know that it wasn't necessary to contribute as I was doing the pictures.
Gary - let me restate - IMO, it's a matter of "relative value". While in many cases, parents don't place zero value on a photo and throw it in the trash can on the way out, the question becomes: in terms of how that individual quantifies value, where does the photo another parent gives them rank. For example - is the value the same as the value they place on the photo texted to them by the parent next to them who took a picture with their cell phone?
Remember too - we're talking about the customer's value on the product. The giver gets the reward of sharing their hobby and the boost to the ego of someone telling them what nice photos they take.
The point someone made was that parents who receive photos from others don't place as much value on those photos as perhaps parents did 10 years ago. If you measure the customer's 'value' at a simple thank-you and once a customer says "thank you" there is no higher degree of measurable value that's a fairly low bar.
I'm simply trying to suggest that we might frame how a customer values a product/service as - what would they be willing to give in terms of money/product/service in exchnge for that photo? And, my opinion is that the vast majority of people now are willing to give far less (in terms of money, product, services) in exchange for a photo. So a photo's value to them relative to the value of every other product/service/money has gone down. At least with regards to sports photos. So yes, they still say thank-you. Just like if I say "have a nice day" they might say thank you. But 10 years ago, an action photo of their child playing sports had a lot more value to them because it was a much rarer commodity. There weren't 5 parents with SLRs taking action photos and shring the pictures. It wasn't a face-book cell-phone age where 'recent' trumps 'quality'. There are exceptions. But if the bar for determining whether a person places value on a photo is "thank you" I doubt you could say a person values the photo the same today as they would have 10 years ago.
I agree with John, the schools that I shoot at/for values what I do for them and pays me for my pictures. I am a photographer my work has value, just as I charge to do IT work for people in the evening. Everything in life is about expectations, the parents and schools know I will show up and produce high quality work for them to purchase. I also will answer their Photography questions with a smile and they will quickly realize that there is a time,money and knowledge investment in taking pictures, creating more value.
Your pictures have value please don't let that be lost in the process.
Most everyone will tell you the pictures look great, you are a great photographer, etc. I value actions over words. When a parent actually buys a print, or the paper I work for tells me they get requests from parents who want to buy my pictures, then I know my stuff has value, especially when there are many who give their stuff away for free.
It would be nice to not be concerned about money, but when you spend money on gear, and time learning and processing pics, money does matter.
. . . If they want those prints ask for a donation. You don't have to claim donations, it helps pay a little for something you enjoy and it is fun for the kids/parents to look at all the pictures. You can even give a percentage back to the school/organization. . . .
This is an interesting thread.
When you say "you don't have to claim donations", are you saying that you don't have to report it on your income tax return? I'm pretty sure that is not true.
I'm a CPA. Can't think of a place in the tax code that makes donations a non-tax event (except to a recipient that is a registered charitable organization).
Now, whether your donations would amount to enough for anyone to be concerned about is another matter. A few hundred dollars here or there . . . probably not going to attract any attention. Also, if you were audited by the IRS and told you needed to report that income you would also be able to take some deductions (depreciation of your equipment, materials cost, etc.) that would likely show your "business" as a money loser (so would not increase, and would likely decrease your taxes). A money losing hobby isn't all bad from a tax perspective, but the IRS will take an interest if you have "hobby losses" for more than a few years.
Give all of the donations to the team/organization and you could probably take a tax deduction for the value of the prints you gave away (though setting value might be tricky). But if you keep some of the cash, that part you kept will be labelled a "Sale" by the IRS (assuming it gets scrutinized).
Not suggesting that the typical small back-and-forth of neighborhood activities needs to be carefully record-kept for tax reporting - just that everyone should be careful with the notion of "donations". If it becomes a large enough $ amount to matter - it matters. (Even flat-out gifts are limited, believe it or not - though the giver is taxed when that happens).
When you say "you don't have to claim donations", are you saying that you don't have to report it on your income tax return? I'm pretty sure that is not true.
I'm a CPA. Can't think of a place in the tax code that makes donations a non-tax event (except to a recipient that is a registered charitable organization).
Now, whether your donations would amount to enough for anyone to be concerned about is another matter. A few hundred dollars here or there . . . probably not going to attract any attention. Also, if you were audited by the IRS and told you needed to report that income you would also be able to take some deductions (depreciation of your equipment, materials cost, etc.) that would likely show your "business" as a money loser (so would not increase, and would likely decrease your taxes). A money losing hobby isn't all bad from a tax perspective, but the IRS will take an interest if you have "hobby losses" for more than a few years.
Give all of the donations to the team/organization and you could probably take a tax deduction for the value of the prints you gave away (though setting value might be tricky). But if you keep some of the cash, that part you kept will be labelled a "Sale" by the IRS (assuming it gets scrutinized).
Not suggesting that the typical small back-and-forth of neighborhood activities needs to be carefully record-kept for tax reporting - just that everyone should be careful with the notion of "donations". If it becomes a large enough $ amount to matter - it matters. (Even flat-out gifts are limited, believe it or not - though the giver is taxed when that happens).
I'm glad you pointed that out. Like the law, getting tax advice on message boards is a bad idea unless the poster happens to be a CPA.
But that information hasn't any value since Bruce didn't charge.
Again, value is determine not by what is paid but by what a person is WILLING to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. It's quite possible no one is willing to give the CPA in question anything in terms of goods/services/monies (or future goods/services/monies) in which case your assessment the 'customer' didn't value the product/service would be correct. But the fact he didn't charge isn't what strips the value.
You're confusing two distinct arguments being made by people:
1) quality photography has value and thus should not be given away for free.
2) sports photography has much diminished value to the majority of potential customers. The sub-argument here by some posters is the value has gone down because so many people give the product away for free.
People trying to make money are arguing point 1 in the hopes they can stop the tide of eroding value in the product/service they're trying to sell.
People arguing point 2 are basically saying - if you're planning on charging money based solely on the feedback from people patting you on the back - be prepared. Those same people don't value the product enough to pay money for something they gladly took for free.
This doesn't really apply because Mark is not a professional photographer under the same definition you are using for the other professions. On my teams the parents were happy to provided free professional advice.
Not everything should or needs to be valued by money. The less emphasis we place on money and the more we place on other considerations and values ... the better our community would be.
When there was a pot luck or get together the parents always let me know that it wasn't necessary to contribute as I was doing the pictures.
Gary
If you didn't place value on your pictures, you should have contributed to the pot luck.
Even in this there is money value. Your time to cook or get the meal from the store, and the amount of work it took to afford to get the food to begin with.
You can deny all you want, but there is a monetary cost and value to everyday living. How we spend our time and money shows what we value.
Comments
You posted here seeking validation for an action, while legally not wrong ... certainly would not be used as an example of Mark's generosity or of you taking the high road. You have an opportunity of being viewed as money hungry or being magnanimous. Your call.
A picture may be worth a thousand words ... but they may also be worth a thousand smiles.
Gary
PS- If you take the high road, remember that 99% of the recipients of your generosity will not have a clue to the time and effort required to shoot and process all the images ... again the word magnanimous comes to mind.
G
PPS- Not that it makes a difference in this thread or your choice, but last week alone I shot a soccer match, basketball game and the Whitney High School Talent Show.
G
Unsharp at any Speed
DO NOT GET CAUGHT WITH YOUR PANTS DOWN... Check the Camera forum about a guy that had images on his website for sale, but found out after his equipment was stolen that it was NOT covered by his home owners insurance because he "SOLD IMAGES" on his website making him a "professional" in the eyes of the insurance company. If you do this, MAKE SURE you talk to your insurance agent. If they don't have a clue, MAKE them contact the Underwriter at the Ins. Headquarters to get EXPLICIT verification of what is and is not covered.
If I can break even and have the few dollars I charge help cover the cost of improved gear to upgrade the quality of the product that we are putting out for the families that they could never get without someone making the investment, I don't think there is anything wrong that approach.
Sure, the best approach is that someone has all this gear and time and is independently wealthy and retired and can do all that. But, I am doing this to learn, improve my skill sets, try to be better at this hobby and while doing it. also help the high schools and paper have proper exposure to the kids events and memories etc.
I think we can charge and still be a good person and help the community by doing pro bono work and help the teams with free individual shots for the web sites, trophy case banquets etc
CBS Sports MaxPreps Shooter
http://DalbyPhoto.com
I started out about 5 or 6 years ago taking pictures of my own kids dancing and moved up to shoot local HS sports and dance and have been selling them for the past 3 years or so. I have gotten to know a bunch of great photographers in my area that have helped me out learning and vice versa. That is one of the cool things about taking pictures, getting to know your local shooters and helping out and even getting some more work. I have been able to help shooting College FB, track and Basketball.
Selling pictures to the school for banquets and such is a great help to the High Schools. If they need me to show up they email me in advance to see if I am available for them, I shoot for 2 or 3 High schools in my area and 1 predominately. My kids don't go there but the parents know me and by pictures from time to time. I also give pictures to Yearbook staffs at those schools for the yearbook to help them out as needed. One HS I shoot for went to States in Girls VB and I was able to shoot the games for them, the kids on the Yearbook and Newspaper staffs didn't want to shoot but cheer on their classmates so all the pictures in the Yearbook for their adventure are mine. The AD at the HS provides me with a pass so I don't pay for home or away games and playoff passes if needed.
I have days where I don't want to go because I really don't like the sport, I shoot a few games of each sport each year some more than others and post them on my site. I have never had any parent say they didn't want me taking pictures of their kids, quite the contrary they usually tell me they leave their camera at home or in the bag when they see me at the event. They get to watch the game and know I will get way better shots than theirs (their wording) and they can enjoy kids playing their game/sports.
The funniest part of all of this, the parents that want me to take a picture of this or that and get a picture of this for them usually buy nothing, you learn to nod your head a go on. That is life photography is what you make of it and enjoy. Selling pictures is not a one size fits all just like anything else, find your place and what you like and go with it.. Then in the back of your head think about how many pictures you took digitally and how much those rolls of 36 35mm film would weigh if you had to carry them around and pay for developing..
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
Point taken. I have posted just over 1000 images this season. I have another 800-900 to edit that may yield 400-500 more. I figure that I'll have over 2000 edited images at the end of the hockey season. I hope I'd get a smile or two or a thousand!
I do hope that it doesn't become an expectation from parents. I have only been asked once thus far "Did you get Junior's top shelf wrist shot?" I politely replied no and that I was watching the game and saw it.
I made my personal validation that I should keep it a fun hobby based on a lot of insight this thread has generated.
I do want to thank everyone for keeping this post out of the weeds. I wasn't sure what to expect or even "if" I should be posting it.
Thanks again!
PS-
Unsharp at any Speed
The only way it doesn't is if you do not hand them out or give links to your gallery. It's going to happen if you are good, and expect someone to ask about shooting other stuff too.
You also have other options though, you could contact local newspapers about contributing to there sports section, you could also try contributing photojournalist articles. You could also offer to take sports portraits at a low cost. You could continue giving away the game shots for free, and advertise for sports portraits on the same page. I am sure there are many ways to get your photos out there and make some money, you just have to think outside the box. I am sure that all the other parents taking photos would not be doing those things with there photos, so your only competition would be with the other local photographers. You could also try finding another local sports photographer to try to team up with. If they already got something established, you could offer to help or be a second photographer for them. Two photographers working together are almost always going to get better shots then one photographer trying to run around doing it all themself.
There are many different ways to keep it a hobby will still making some money. You can also sell some prints or whatever to make money, without making it a business. Its considered a hobby if your not making a profit. If you already have a job that you used to pay for your equipment, using the money you make from photography to pay for your equipment, means your not making a profit, and if your sales per print are low, you can also consider yourself a artist.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/985110
There probably isnt to many people locally offering this sort of service, so you might have a monopoly in potentially teaching the other parents. Maybe offer lessons before the game, when the parents are child free
As stated your product does have to be better than that of the average parent and it takes a significant investment in gear to pull it off. Yes the photographer makes a difference in the images but a great photograher produces far better images with superlative gear like a MKIV and 400 2.8 than those with a T2i with a 70-300.
I would just keep doing what you are doing. Enjoy it as a hobby, but at the end of the season (if there is some type of banquet). Print about $100, or whatever your comfortable with, worth of prints and place them on a table for parents to view. If they want those prints ask for a donation. The donation helps pay a little for something you enjoy and it is fun for the kids/parents to look at all the pictures. You can even give a percentage back to the school/organization. You still get the enjoyment of photography and may be able to make a little cash for your efforts. Even if you only get a few donations it should be enough to cover the print costs. You can also let everyone know there are digital downloads available on your site. Charge a nominal fee so parents still think they are getting a great deal and you still make a little $$$.
Doug and Cathy
www.goldenstarphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/artist.goldenstarphoto?ref=hl
I guess you need to consider several things. First do you want to get more lenses and better cameras as time goes on. If you do not need the money to pay for equipment you can give your work away. I would suggest you see what Pros charge for the work you are giving away and tell parents that is what you are going to charge and have them make out a check to the charity of your choice. Or maybe a college fund for your children?
Many parents put no value on photos because of parents giving away their work. Pro Photographers spend their life trying to earn a living. If your pictures are good, parents should understand that you have invested time and money to produce them. So I guess the question you need to ask yourself is, do your pictures have any value or is your work worthless?
If you like giving away money please meet me at the gas station.
So, Northcoast, what did you decide?
Short answer: I am going to offer a consolidated disk with the edited jpegs and printing rights for this past hockey season. I will charge a small fee per disk. They can download singles of this season for free.
My reasoning: I didn't level-set any expectaions for fees at the start of the season. In fact, one could argue that the expectation of "free" was set from the beginning.
Therefore, I will use this season as a learning experience. I feel my photography did better, my post processing got better, and I have a portfolio to pick from to make a good representitive sample gallery. Next season I can put together a package - i.e. pics on disk, individual poster and year book. I'll work on pre-season sale to the team and level-set up front. For the three teams I am shooting this year it comes out to 45 skaters. At even $40 to $100 each for a nice package at the end of next season - that would make a nice gift back to me for time taking the images and countless hours in PP. Next thing I need to do is put together a nice poster and year book (e.g. of my son). Then I can show my work to others. I get positive comments all the time on the simple calendar that I have up at work...
I do want to keep it a hobby. I do struggle with knowing if my work is good enough... It's the best I can do today and I'm proud to share. Sure, it's good enough for me. But to accept money for my work makes me a bit more critical.
I plan to shoot soccer and lacrosse in the spring. I don't have any experience with either. So another opportunity to learn and grow...
Think of it as a loss leader promotion. Your in business Now!
For the next season, I'd consider doing an all up offer. tell the team/ parents you will do them a deal where you provide everyone a disk for say $25 on an entire team basis OR you will provide X disks ( one for every player) for say $400 and let them decide who wants in. Obviously the more that want one the less they each pay. That way if someone opts out you don't have to worry about someone else copying and giving it to them but I would just state it's on an all in, x number basis anyway or the proce goes up.
6 of 1 , half a dozen of the other, use whichever you feel will work best.
I would be going one of these routes because in my experience, you will be Very lucky to get 100% buy rate otherwise and I'd expect a fair bit lower take up myself. Also suggest that the players can pay say $5 a week extra on their game fees till the per player cost is paid off.
I find with shooting sports, after you have done a couple the rest become a lot easier as you get your eye in for the timing. It also helps to watch some games even on TV to know what they are going to do and and be able to have an objective look at where the best shots are going to be.
Don't worry if your work is good enough. It will be because you are trying to do well and that's enough. Your shooting for parents not SI.
Do your best and be happy. It will be way above what the parents expect or can do themselves. You very well may at some time get parents saying something to the effect of they think a shot ( probably out of 500) could be better but if you showed them a bunch of the best sports shots through history you'd still get people having a whinge.
That will happen, don't sweat it when it does.
I was going through my events computer last night and found a folder where we copied the shots off a good clients card and put them on disk to free it up for her after she had forgotten to transfer the pics and had no space on to shoot anything at a weekend event. Looking at her pics she takes with a decent SLR and a reasonable long lens, Suffice to say I understand why she is still a good client of ours!
Good luck with it.
Maybe I run in different circles, but I respectfully challenge the conventional wisdom of value having anything to do with price. I mainly shoot High School dance and theatre and for various reasons, I have so far chosen to provide my photos free of charge. My experience is that most parents put tremendous value in my photos of their kids. The sincere thanks from parents, teachers, and administrators; the prints hanging in prominent areas of their homes; and especially, the repeated and heartfelt thanks (and occasional tears of joy) from students suggests that my photos are far from worthless.
It is a personal decision on whether to charge and how much to charge. I respectfully disagree that the price reflects value in any way.
Rick - "value" has more to do with what they are WILLING to pay. Not what you charge. While I'm sure your photography is excellent, you may be surprised how many of those parents who offer heartfelt thanks suddenly stop using your photos when it's $10 instead of free. There are always some parents who do value photographs enough to pay for them.
Think of it this way - lots of people at the market or food court gladly accept a free sample and offer thanks and they are greatful for that free hand-out. But that doesn't mean they're going to buy the product.
Now, of course, for sake of discussion, we remove people who cannot afford luxury items like photo purchases.
Now - if your "customers" are giving you free tax services or free automobile repairs or free dentist or legal work in exchange for the photos then it's easy to judge the fact they value the product as much as their own products/services which are deemed to have monetary value. So, since you brought it up - how many of your clients that have professional products/services give you those products/services at no charge in exchange for the free product you give them? Or is the value they place on their professional product/service higher than the value they place on yours?
This doesn't really apply because Mark is not a professional photographer under the same definition you are using for the other professions. On my teams the parents were happy to provided free professional advice.
Not everything should or needs to be valued by money. The less emphasis we place on money and the more we place on other considerations and values ... the better our community would be.
When there was a pot luck or get together the parents always let me know that it wasn't necessary to contribute as I was doing the pictures.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
Remember too - we're talking about the customer's value on the product. The giver gets the reward of sharing their hobby and the boost to the ego of someone telling them what nice photos they take.
The point someone made was that parents who receive photos from others don't place as much value on those photos as perhaps parents did 10 years ago. If you measure the customer's 'value' at a simple thank-you and once a customer says "thank you" there is no higher degree of measurable value that's a fairly low bar.
I'm simply trying to suggest that we might frame how a customer values a product/service as - what would they be willing to give in terms of money/product/service in exchnge for that photo? And, my opinion is that the vast majority of people now are willing to give far less (in terms of money, product, services) in exchange for a photo. So a photo's value to them relative to the value of every other product/service/money has gone down. At least with regards to sports photos. So yes, they still say thank-you. Just like if I say "have a nice day" they might say thank you. But 10 years ago, an action photo of their child playing sports had a lot more value to them because it was a much rarer commodity. There weren't 5 parents with SLRs taking action photos and shring the pictures. It wasn't a face-book cell-phone age where 'recent' trumps 'quality'. There are exceptions. But if the bar for determining whether a person places value on a photo is "thank you" I doubt you could say a person values the photo the same today as they would have 10 years ago.
Your pictures have value please don't let that be lost in the process.
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
It would be nice to not be concerned about money, but when you spend money on gear, and time learning and processing pics, money does matter.
This is an interesting thread.
When you say "you don't have to claim donations", are you saying that you don't have to report it on your income tax return? I'm pretty sure that is not true.
I'm a CPA. Can't think of a place in the tax code that makes donations a non-tax event (except to a recipient that is a registered charitable organization).
Now, whether your donations would amount to enough for anyone to be concerned about is another matter. A few hundred dollars here or there . . . probably not going to attract any attention. Also, if you were audited by the IRS and told you needed to report that income you would also be able to take some deductions (depreciation of your equipment, materials cost, etc.) that would likely show your "business" as a money loser (so would not increase, and would likely decrease your taxes). A money losing hobby isn't all bad from a tax perspective, but the IRS will take an interest if you have "hobby losses" for more than a few years.
Give all of the donations to the team/organization and you could probably take a tax deduction for the value of the prints you gave away (though setting value might be tricky). But if you keep some of the cash, that part you kept will be labelled a "Sale" by the IRS (assuming it gets scrutinized).
Not suggesting that the typical small back-and-forth of neighborhood activities needs to be carefully record-kept for tax reporting - just that everyone should be careful with the notion of "donations". If it becomes a large enough $ amount to matter - it matters. (Even flat-out gifts are limited, believe it or not - though the giver is taxed when that happens).
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
I'm glad you pointed that out. Like the law, getting tax advice on message boards is a bad idea unless the poster happens to be a CPA.
But that information hasn't any value since Bruce didn't charge.
Unsharp at any Speed
I'll send an e-bill to everyone who has read this thread.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
Again, value is determine not by what is paid but by what a person is WILLING to pay in terms of goods/services/monies. It's quite possible no one is willing to give the CPA in question anything in terms of goods/services/monies (or future goods/services/monies) in which case your assessment the 'customer' didn't value the product/service would be correct. But the fact he didn't charge isn't what strips the value.
You're confusing two distinct arguments being made by people:
1) quality photography has value and thus should not be given away for free.
2) sports photography has much diminished value to the majority of potential customers. The sub-argument here by some posters is the value has gone down because so many people give the product away for free.
People trying to make money are arguing point 1 in the hopes they can stop the tide of eroding value in the product/service they're trying to sell.
People arguing point 2 are basically saying - if you're planning on charging money based solely on the feedback from people patting you on the back - be prepared. Those same people don't value the product enough to pay money for something they gladly took for free.
If you didn't place value on your pictures, you should have contributed to the pot luck.
Even in this there is money value. Your time to cook or get the meal from the store, and the amount of work it took to afford to get the food to begin with.
You can deny all you want, but there is a monetary cost and value to everyday living. How we spend our time and money shows what we value.