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Couple want CD of their Wedding for Free!
About a year and a half ago, a friend asked me if I would meet her at her friends wedding to take shots of her and her husband. I did not know the bride and groom. It was at a public park and I continued to shoot the wedding and even directed family photos as they did not have an "official" photographer. I got some nice shots, put them in my smugmug site and forgot about it. I made no sales except for the gal I went photograph.This morning the groom called and said he wants a CD of all the images. I told him he could purchase them off the website and he said "You are going to charge me for them?" Don't you have to have a release from us? I want them for free. I told him I would just pull them from the site but he insisted he gets all the pictures for nothing. I was still pretty much asleep and when I fully woke up, I was a little upset. I put in a lot of time editing etc. for the experience and even had a photo printed after the ceremony so I could give them one at the reception. Now it feels like he is blackmailing me for my images. ( I obviously don't have a contract or photo release) What should I do? What can I do?
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Dear (Groom),
On (date), you phoned me and demanded digital files of your wedding images at no cost. I have researched the legalities of your demands, and find that you are misinformed regarding your perceived rights.
In the United States, unless a local ordinates states otherwise, photos may be taken of any person in a public setting where there is no expectation of privacy. Public parks fall under this category. A photographer does not need a release to show work taken in these circumstances. She only needs a release if she is going to resell those images to a stock photo company such as Getty Images, or allow another business to use it for their promotional purposes, such as a reception venue.
Therefore, the answer to your request is No, you cannot have the images for free. I did not appreciate your tone nor your demands, and do not wish to discuss this issue with you further. If you wish to accept my offer to purchase the images at $xxx amount, send me a check for that amount, and I will send you the files after it has cleared. Please do not phone me again about this matter, as I will not accept your calls.
Sincerely,
Your name.
Oh, and I'd pull them off the web site right away, before responding. They've probably been looking at them frequently since you posted them; no need to let them continue doing so.
IMHO you aren't obligated to give him anything. If he wants to buy from you, great.
If he wants you to remove the photos from your site, you should do that - if only because it is the polite thing to do. You could make the argument that the wedding took place in a public setting so you are entitled to photograph (true), but he could argue that you are using his image in a marketing effort (showing your skill to get more photo gigs). Best to try to cut the arguments short.
The fact that you took photos at his wedding does not entitle him to copies.
Chooka chooka hoo la ley
Looka looka koo la ley
Thanks you guys, I feel better already. If he wants them, he can buy them period. I will regretfully take off his photos. It was kind of unique, a motorcycle wedding.
My Weddings Website • Blog •
Oh sure. 'Cause prior to digital, no one wanted anything for free.
So you took the pictures and used them on your website for your own marketing purposes.
Did the couple know you had all these pictures of their wedding and there had been no discussion of it for 1.5 years?
Was he demanding or belligerent in any way when he called you up asking if he could have a disc of the photos.
My opinion:
If he was being a jerk and demanding the photos...ask him pay a small amount for the disc. (even though I don't feel you have any basis to charge him for them, since you were a guest at the wedding and were not hired to take photos)
If he was being a nice guy and just hoping he could get a disc of the photos, give them to him and thank him for letting you photograph his wedding and for using the photos on your site for marketing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
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by the way, this was a wedding where the entire bridal party took shots at the alter. lol so you kind of know what I am dealing with.
If I showed up at an acquaintance's wedding and just started taking pictures and then did portraits for them, I would give them a disc of the photos. YOU decided to take photos of them, they did not hire you or discuss contracting or any of that, you just showed up with camera, and in their eyes, was a guest like everyone else. You think any of the other guests would say "No! You can't have any of the photos I took unless you pay me!"? Of course they wouldn't, regardless of skill level. You were a guest at the wedding, not The Photographer. There is a big difference. I think he has every right to want the images and the right to discuss how the images are used.
I say give them a disc of the photos with a couple business cards and chalk it up to advertising expense. If they like the photos, they'll probably be happy to recommend you. If you tell them that they can't have them without paying you, you are unlikely to get positive words tossed in your direction.
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
I think she has some great points there. Upon further examination of the story, and a re-reading of things, I think you really were more of a guest than anything.
What if the great Jerry Ghionis showed up at one of your friend's wedding and started shooting, then edited the photos, then wanted to be paid for it. Sounds totally wrong, doesn't it?
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No, it doesn't sound wrong. Just because Jerry Ghionis showed up at my wedding and took pictures of it, doesn't mean I have a right to those pictures.
I could argue that, since it was a private event, he doesn't have the right to use my image for his marketing purposes. I can understand the groom asking for the pictures to be taken off the web.
But that doesn't mean the groom has some intrinsic right to the pictures. If Jerry Ghionis did that all on spec, as it were, he might get paid, and he might not -- that's my choice. He has the right to ask to be paid, and I have the right to choose to pay him or not.
Look at it this way. Suppose I'm out on the street, and B.D. Colen takes my picture. In that case, I can't even ask him to take it off the web, much less demand he give me the pictures for free. By the same token, people you took pictures of at a wedding you were invited to have no right to demand copies of your pictures.
Kat -- you don't owe that guy squat, except to take his pictures of the web if he asks.
www.photographyjones.com
I personally would call up your mutual friend that you were there to originally photograph and just feel her out and find out what's up. Maybe she can provide a little bit of friendly mediation to see where he is coming from as well.
It sounds like she is more upset about his approach then his actual request. And she didn't ask to be paid for her services. He didn't hire her and she didn't do a job and then request money afterward. He's demanding she give him a physical product for free and she's declining. I think there is a big difference there.
It also sounds like from his approach that it's unlikely she will get positive feedback no matter what she does. She's now in a lose-lose situation.
The only thing I do agree with is that he has a right to want to discuss how the images are used. Not necessarily a legal one since they were in a public park with no expectation of privacy (which is why the paparazzi can do what they do), but at least a right as a courtesy from one person to another.
Am I the ONLY other person who heard the door to "win-win" as it SLAMMED shut?
If you're just a hobbyist, don't have much free time, and couldn't care less about shooting for money, then yep I totally understand if you just say "nope, not worth my time, sorry."
However, in any other situation this just screams "lose-lose" to me. Someone actually appreciated your work enough to call you up a year and a half after their wedding, and you turned them into a spiteful enemy.
Sure, it took guts to stand up to them, you didn't let them walk all over you, so you probably feel like you did the right thing... You protected your copyright, you "taught a lesson" to someone with an overgrown sense of entitlement. Except, like I said, ...they hate you now. They're NOT going to go around to all their friends and say "hey, I learned a very valuable lesson about copyright today, listen to this..." Indeed, they're going to be saying something like "ugh, a friend of a friend took some pics at our wedding, and now they're trying to charge us for a disc! What a jerk."
However, and maybe I'm just being completely un-realistic but hear me out, ...what if:
"Hi, yes I remember your wedding, it was beautiful! Sure, I have the archive somewhere around here, let me dig it up and I'll burn you a disc... I usually charge $X-hundred for a disc of course, but I was just shooting casually that day and some of the photos might not be up to my usual standard of excellence. I did get a few great ones though, I hope you like them!
I didn't have time to edit any of them since it wasn't a "job", but if you take them to a professional lab I'm sure they'll look great.
You could also order a fully retouched enlargement through my website if you want, that way I can guarantee the quality of any prints that I take the extra time to work on myself. I charge more than at the local labs, but that's because I put a lot of time into it, and guarantee your satisfaction. :-)
Thanks again for thinking of me! Oh BTW, what's your address? And hey, if you really do like the photos, if people see them on your wall and ask, I'd be so grateful if you'd mention my name of course. And say thanks to so-and-so for inviting me to your wedding, I had a great time."
WIN.
WIN.
You might think you're being taken advantage of now, but it could have paid off in the long run with thousands of dollars worth of referral business. You never know who knows who, who has money to spend, etc. Some of the biggest sales come from the most un-likely places, some of the highest dollar referrals come from past clients without two pennies...
This is what two local professionals, who have both been highly successful for 15-20 years, have taught me... ALWAYS think win-win first and foremost. True, sometimes you gotta stick to your guns when push comes to shove, but that's a LAST resorts when all diplomacy (and generosity) has failed. Both of these photographers I know have told countless stories of how bending over backwards for the sake of customer satisfaction ended up generating new business worth thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.
So, honestly I mean no offense and I hope this will only lead to POSITIVE things in your and others' future, ...but essentially what you did was draw the generosity line at zero. Push didn't come to shove at all; they asked an innocent naive question, and you rang your cash register.
Also, instead of "learning a lesson", this person is now going to simply despise professional photographers, period. Not getting the disc did NOT teach them to respect photographer's copyrights, it just taught them that professionals are jerks. So they're even more likely to just have a friend photograph their next event / portrait session. Oops! Backfire on not just you, but the entire industry that you were trying to protect! Yes, maybe some day their BFF who is a photographer will explain to them that copyright is indeed very important, and this person will once again spend money on professional photography. But by then the money will be going to OTHER professionals, the FRIENDS and referrals from which you have already permanently excluded yourself.
Okay, I'll (try to) lay off now, I really do apologize even though I'm sure quite a few people hate me right now. I wish I could have painted the picture more gently, but I honestly believe that this probably did MORE damage to "the industry" than it would have done if you'd politely explained copyright to them WHILE burning the disc and dropping it in the mail for free.
To those here who are being all legal about it, and talking about "respecting professionals and the industry", I have to say, ...really? This is gonna sound cold, but quite honestly I bet over half of you will be out of business in 5-10 years with that kind of "don't owe them anything" attitude. If it's business that you're here for, of course. Seriously, I DO SEE YOUR POINT. Hands-down, the client was asking for a freebie and they should know better, photographers gotta stand up for themselves. But still, thinking in such a strictly legal manner will cost you the big picture. Like I said earlier- put yourself in the client's shoes, and think about how a happy, satisfied person will react to polite words about copyright, compared to how a pissed-off person will react to cold, blunt words about copyright. Think about the potential asset to your business that a happy customer can be. Think about the referrals that could be generated if that client puts a big print on their wall, or a book on their coffee table.
And really, who are we to think of ourselves as such veterans worthy of respect and fair payment? How long have you / we been in business? A few months? A few years? Unless we're pulling in a quarter-million or something, I don't think we should be shouting "Hey I'm a PRO, respect me and my industry!" every time someone asks for a freebie. We were hobbyists and amateurs just recently; I think that by default a little generosity is in order. Especially when nobody signed a contract in the first place, and especially when you don't even know the "client" personally. I dunno about you but I'd be really uncomfortable with a semi-stranger snapping pics at my own wedding. In fact MOST people who show up as *guests* at a wedding, bring a present for the couple. The industry will NOT collapse because a friend gives a friend a disc of casually snapped photos. If anything, the industry is really hurting because "friends with cameras" (and uncle bob) are NICER PEOPLE than the massive wave of prosumers who are obsessed with "going pro" and making a buck.
Okay, to be honest? I'm not THAT great at business or marketing, or at least I'm not filthy rich....that's for sure! So I don't claim to be absolutely right on this one, I'm ONLY speaking my emotional, subjective opinion and you're absolutely welcome to think I'm not only wrong, but completely un-qualified to be saying all this. (As someone who barely scratches out a living as a photographer...) Either way, all I know is that EVERY successful pro around me focus on the same thing- Thinking win-win, swallowing their pride every now and then to make someone happy, and THEN asking for generosity in return.
Take care,
=Matt=
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Just saying, giving a disk of photos as marketing could backfire. It could very well turn into, 'she takes horrible photos', simply because they got them printed at walmart. There is a risk to giving away the original files. I gave away a photo the other week, only to see it posted online poorly cropped and extremely mangled, with my name attached to it as the photographer
People have made valid points on both sides, but personally I would have gave them the disk, just to be nice, and nothing more. This is a tough decision to make, there is no right or wrong answer, so contrary to what some want you to believe, giving or not giving are both respectable decisions.
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I wasn't saying Jerry Ghionis has to give them away free, just that demanding payment sounds wrong. Especially if he had used them for marketing. There's always the option of Jerry not giving them to anyone, and deleting them all. Afterall, he wasn't hired to shoot them anyway. I think Matthew used the right term, saying "on spec".
OK, no more hypotheticals from me on this. That's opens way too many doors.
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- You no longer are using these photos on your site to draw in similar business
- You didn't make any money off the groom by selling him the disc
- You have an angry guy out there that has the potential to sabotage future sales from people that happen to know him
Hope the pride you feel from not giving in to him is worth all this.Moderator of the People and Go Figure forums
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I think the bigger question is why would you go to a wedding like this when there is no pay and then get offended when the couple asks for a copy of their images soooo much later after the date has passed. With no contract there was never a clear understanding worked out between you and them, so it's kind of silly to get mad at them for making such a request.
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That would have been my first thought! Not "buy them off my website good by!"
The bottom line is, you had a potential client who wanted what you had. I believe there were many options open to you. You are the business person, you have the product, you are in charge of how the conversation will at lest begin.
It's all about attitude. Begin with an adversarial attitude and what do you expect the out come to be?
While you blew this one, if you don't figure out how to deal with future clients in a more positive way your not going to fare very well.
Sam
Well, I haven't blown anything yet...but I do appreciate the different opinions, that is why I posted this with the thought I would get different points of views before I acted. I would think that if someone wants what I have, they might have taken a different approach also. As it stands, he thinks he is getting the disc and I am to call him next week. I knew I could count on the Smuggers to have a good discussion as harsh as some of you are
But I also think that sometimes the best business move is to turn down a potential client that is likely to be more trouble than return.
It's pretty clear to me that this client intends to try everything he can to get something for nothing, rather than engage in good faith in a win-win proposition. I think it's very unlikely that he would promote Kat's business by word of mouth -- sounds like he's more likely to brag that he conned free wedding pictures out of her.
Life is too short for needless drama. A proper sense of discernment is needed to separate the business opportunities from the business traps. This one sounds like a trap to me. IMHO, walking away from this is not blowing anything -- it's saving yourself from a net loss.
www.photographyjones.com
My reply isn't meant to be personally harsh, but to honestly comment on what I am reading.
What the heck does: "As it stands, he thinks he is getting the disc and I am to call him next week" mean!!!!
Sorry to be harsh, but.....................If you discussed this and knowingly left him with the impression you are going to give him the images, I think that's what you need to do.
Good Grief!!
Sam