I'd say Matt is right as well Kat. As annoying as it is to do things for free, it's always best to make people gushingly happy. Since the work is long done and over with, and you never even expected to make a cent, you should use this situation not as an opportunity to make a couple measly bucks, but as a marketing opportunity to make somebody love you and talk about you so you can potentially get a lot more than a couple bucks in the future. That, in my experience, is the biggest key to doing business as a photographer. It's not taking good photos, it's being somebody who is just plain awesome to work with.
I'd say Matt is right as well Kat. As annoying as it is to do things for free, it's always best to make people gushingly happy. Since the work is long done and over with, and you never even expected to make a cent, you should use this situation not as an opportunity to make a couple measly bucks, but as a marketing opportunity to make somebody love you and talk about you so you can potentially get a lot more than a couple bucks in the future. That, in my experience, is the biggest key to doing business as a photographer. It's not taking good photos, it's being somebody who is just plain awesome to work with.
Matt is often harsh, but he's often right too.
Agreed! Really guys, thanks for taking the time out to reply to this thread. After the initial emotion has passed and reading all the great posts, I will do the right thing!
My reply isn't meant to be personally harsh, but to honestly comment on what I am reading.
What the heck does: "As it stands, he thinks he is getting the disc and I am to call him next week" mean!!!!
Sorry to be harsh, but.....................If you discussed this and knowingly left him with the impression you are going to give him the images, I think that's what you need to do.
Good Grief!!
Sam
What that means is I didn't say or do anything that would make him perceive anything other than he is getting the pictures and I am awesome, so I didn't burn any bridges if you get my drift.
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Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited March 5, 2011
1.) The misconception that pics printed at Walmart / CVS will crash your business is definitely, well, a misconception. Again I'm going to have to sound harsh, but it is the classic "newbie" worry. I say this because ALL of the highly successful photographers I know don't worry about this at all. Becker, for example, delivers a disc of SOOC JPG files, completely un-edited. Yup. Of course admittedly, maybe they've got a stronger brand to fall back on if one client out there prints a terrible photo, but I honestly believe it goes deeper than that. In my experience, A.) People DO listen to you and take your disc to a high-end lab, if you ask them nicely and suggest one, and B.) even if they do get mediocre prints made at a drugstore, few people will notice the difference unless they're a discerning photographer, and then the discerning photographer KNOWS to blame the lab, NOT you...
Bottom line for me- creating an "enemy" is FAR worse for your business than risking a funky print on someone's wall. Again, I say this as someone who has seen it discussed countless times, among newbies and veterans, and it's just not really that big of a risk in reality. The far greater risk is if you create a "hater" who happens to have a connection, or even just a vengeful attitude, that can REALLY harm your business.
2.) "Turning down the wrong type of clients" is, in my opinion, another misconception that beginners often make. (anybody in business less than 5 years including myself, ) Again, going back to the many successful pros that I've learned from, compared to the beginners and new pros: You never know who knows who. You might think that a certain client is just a un-appreciative party animal who doesn't care about photography and won't refer you anything but more headache customers, but I personally would NOT feel comfortable making that judgment call, not unless I'd been in business for a decade or so. Again, this is something that I see new pros blowing way out of proportion. It's almost like putting a feather in their cap, a sense of accomplishment, when they turn down a client because things "didn't feel right." Yes, there are plenty of times when you SHOULD walk away from a ticking time bomb, indeed. My point is that I think many people are just being petty, and it ends up really insulting the client. Again, you've created a hater instead of a loving fan.
That particular subject is personal to me, because I was turned down by a photographer with the excuse of being busy / booked when they were in fact NOT. Trust me, it hurts. Maybe I just need tougher skin, but either way the photographer lost a fan / client. And I had the pleasant experience of wondering if my wife wasn't hot enough for that photographer's portfolio, or if I wasn't enough of an up-sale, etc. etc. It really did take our self-esteem down a notch.
Like I said, put yourself in the client's shoes... Myself, as a groom who also got married ~2 years ago, ...I feel like it would be downright rude of a semi-stranger to come to MY wedding, snap pictures of MY friends and family, and then try and charge me for the disc. It's just such a personal event, and to have a "stranger" there, even if they're close with another person, well it's really important to the B&G that they know everyone very closely. Kat, I'm not sure if you've been married yet, but that's just how I feel as a married man. It took a lot of stress and hurt feelings to pick who to invite to our wedding, and it was in a semi-public area for part of the day.
If you read my true story that I posted in another topic here, you'll also see that I've had an experience where a TOTAL stranger came in off the street and started snapping pics at one of my client's weddings. That's quite different because it was in fact a complete stranger and that is just CREEPY, but my point is that a bride and groom are very sensitive on their wedding day. It may not feel that way 1.5 years later, I know. But it still would have been in your best interest, or at least it would have made another human being really happy, if you had just burned the disc on their 1-year anniversary and dropped that in the mail with a quick thank-you note, for their letting you, a stranger, into their wedding day.
(Sorry for continuing to pile on after we've sorta concluded this GREAT discussion. I know it's un-necessary, but I guess I just kept typing...)
It really doesn't matter that he doesn't bring you one red cent later. As the old marketing adage goes: Make one person happy, she tells two. Make one person mad, and she tells 18...that is the bottom line! You only stand your ground if: it is in writing and they are throwing salt. I don't see this as win win, even if you went ahead and gave him the disc. I do see lose -lose if you do not. Sometimes it's better not to win!
tom wise
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Darren Troy CRegistered UsersPosts: 1,927Major grins
It really doesn't matter that he doesn't bring you one red cent later. As the old marketing adage goes: Make one person happy, she tells two. Make one person mad, and she tells 18...that is the bottom line! You only stand your ground if: it is in writing and they are throwing salt. I don't see this as win win, even if you went ahead and gave him the disc. I do see lose -lose if you do not. Sometimes it's better not to win!
And right there is the reason to never make people angry! Bad press hurts you in way more ways than imaginable.
That's true, but sometimes you can't please someone no matter what you do. That's when you have to discern when to just cut your losses - which is obviously difficult to figure out.
But, Kat, I hope you can come to a peaceful and successful resolution.
That's true, but sometimes you can't please someone no matter what you do. That's when you have to discern when to just cut your losses - which is obviously difficult to figure out.
But, Kat, I hope you can come to a peaceful and successful resolution.
Awww thanks. It has been on my mind since "the phone call". But the saga continues....tonight was the 50th birthday party of the gal I originally went to photograph at the wedding. It was held at the bar where she works. The place was packed like I have never seen it. I spot a guy I know who is a taxi driver/photographer. Wait...he was photographing that wedding, sort of. Hey XXXX, can I talk to you about what's going on? I tell him about the call and he goes "oh your that photographer". YYYY is a poodle dick that wants something for nothing and thought playing the "copyright" card would get him the pictures for free.I photographed their wedding as a wedding present because they don't have any money.They are making a wedding video, saw my pics and wanted them included in it"
Oh, ok so my first instinct was correct, it usually is, but seeing everyones opinion on the subject was interesting.
The party was a great networking opportunity. A guy paid me 20 bucks to photograph him singing with the band. I declined the cash, he insisted and it bought my drinks, very cool. I met a couple with 4 kids that wants family portraits. Win-win. The photographer I spoke with is emailing me copyright, photographer legal stuff etc. that he got from his college class. Win... He just got a gig photographing our new arena football team/games and said they may need another shooter. Win Win.
Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited March 6, 2011
Well said, Angevin! Simply for that reason alone, I would think generously first and foremost. I'd rather have two people interested in me, than eighteen people avoiding me. :-P
Although, Kat, it is interesting to hear that the couple (groom?) was INDEED trying to take advantage of you, intentionally, even when apparently they KNEW you were shooting professionally for the bridesmaid, and they KNEW that they had no pro of their own on-site.
So yeah, they were trying to take advantage of you; it was not the innocent question it originally sounded like.
But I still say, next time nip this whole situation in the bud, and give "friends" a disc even before they ask. If you're a GUEST at a wedding, that makes the couple your HOST, not your CLIENT. Even if they're a greedy host. :-P
I am sure that some will see this area as just a "back room chat" among pro's and all, but it does strike me as a bit unprofessional to be trashing past clients such as you are doing with attacks on their character. Drug users so drunk they can't remember anything. . . Poodle dicks. . . I'm just an amatuer here, but if I was in the market for serious coverage of an event, I might consider hiring a member of this forum (provided that one was in my area.) Of all the people who posted in this topic, who do you think I would be most likely to contact?
So not disclosing extra facts is better than not knowing? Not everything is cut and dried as we saw from all the fantastic posts made on this thread. I thought that was the purpose of discussing things on the forum, and yes, I felt this was a "Backroom chat room" where I could honestly say what was on my mind without sugar coating anything. In real life, not everything is politically correct. It's just that...real life. Some of the comments I posted had quotation marks that indicate someone else said these things in regards to the situation. Should I censor that to be politically correct?
So not disclosing extra facts is better than not knowing? Not everything is cut and dried as we saw from all the fantastic posts made on this thread. I thought that was the purpose of discussing things on the forum, and yes, I felt this was a "Backroom chat room" where I could honestly say what was on my mind without sugar coating anything. In real life, not everything is politically correct. It's just that...real life. Some of the comments I posted had quotation marks that indicate someone else said these things in regards to the situation. Should I censor that to be politically correct?
Please don't censor. I agree with you that this should be a place to freely exchange thoughts, and ideas.
Please note, I never commented on charging or not charging. My initial concern was the attitude I sensed for the original post. It seemed to me to be somewhat persnickety. More recent posts leads me to believe this was not accurate.
When dealing with clients I really do believe on seeking a win win solution to any issues. I think it's incumbent on us to take a step back and calmly evaluate the situation. Refrain from saying the first thing that pops into your mind. Look for a positive outcome. Instead of allowing the situation to digress into a contest of wills make it a personal challenge to turn it around. Sometimes what you initially perceive to be the issue, isn't the issue at all.
Salvaging what seems to be a lost cause, is so much sweeter than any quick confrontational comments.
If in this situation you have allowed the conversation to go to where the groom believes he is getting the images for free, then I think it might well be best to go ahead and bit the bullet.
NOTE: I recently had a somewhat similar but more contentious situation. In fact it's not quite over, but the client is scheduled to pick up the images tomorrow. And yes they are paying for them.
I cant type fast enough to tell you the whole story, but I was told there was no way in Beelzebub's home town I or any mortal would be able to turn this bridzilla around.
So not disclosing extra facts is better than not knowing? Not everything is cut and dried as we saw from all the fantastic posts made on this thread. I thought that was the purpose of discussing things on the forum, and yes, I felt this was a "Backroom chat room" where I could honestly say what was on my mind without sugar coating anything. In real life, not everything is politically correct. It's just that...real life. Some of the comments I posted had quotation marks that indicate someone else said these things in regards to the situation. Should I censor that to be politically correct?
Actually I read right thru the thick of it from the very first post, and though you've since said you have found more than one: win-win. I still don't see much in the win dept. about the original issue. However letting 'him' win is as close to winning as you can get.
I am sure that some will see this area as just a "back room chat" among pro's and all, but it does strike me as a bit unprofessional to be trashing past clients such as you are doing with attacks on their character. Drug users so drunk they can't remember anything. . . Poodle dicks. . . I'm just an amatuer
Unless I missed it, She was quoting what the other photog told her~
But I still say, next time nip this whole situation in the bud, and give "friends" a disc even before they ask. If you're a GUEST at a wedding, that makes the couple your HOST, not your CLIENT. Even if they're a greedy host. :-P
=Matt=
Make that two!
tom wise
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Darren Troy CRegistered UsersPosts: 1,927Major grins
Darren, and get in more trouble for copyright/photography release violation?
lol
You had mentioned having a smugmug site that isn't linked or in your profile. I was just wanting to see some work. And you took the pictures, why would you risk copyright violations? Anyway, just wanted to look at the work in question. But at this point and after reading the multitude of reactions and suggestions, I can understand your concerns. Carry on.
You must have a release to use any images on your site and just because the digital image has a lower value now does mean you cannot charge the right price for your art. People hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
You must have a release to use any images on your site and just because the digital image has a lower value now does mean you cannot charge the right price for your art. People hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this.<o:p></o:p>
Without going into all the various scenarios, you statement about needing a release to use ANY images on a website is patently wrong.
As for giving the images away or not, that's up to the photographer, and the circumstances.
You must have a release to use any images on your site and just because the digital image has a lower value now does mean you cannot charge the right price for your art. People hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this.<o:p></o:p>
This is completely wrong. This is not a stock photography site.... i.e. we are not selling RF images here that are getting used for advertising, etc. (or at least, if someone does use them for ads, their heads would roll, not ours). Therefore, no, we do not need to have any kind of model releases for photos we ourselves have taken, just to simply display and sell prints for people's personal use. You really need to be careful before mis-informing people this way-- there's way too much of that going around anyway. Look at stock & microstock sites & read some of their licenses, then look at Rights Managed images & see those licenses. Then look at editorial licenses. Then look back here at photo sharing sites, which this is. Yeah, we can sell stuff. Yeah, some people here are pros (and there are a few different definitions of pro), but the first priority when you're talking about needing releases is to find out what purpose the image is being sold for.
Well said, Angevin! Simply for that reason alone, I would think generously first and foremost. I'd rather have two people interested in me, than eighteen people avoiding me. :-P
Although, Kat, it is interesting to hear that the couple (groom?) was INDEED trying to take advantage of you, intentionally, even when apparently they KNEW you were shooting professionally for the bridesmaid, and they KNEW that they had no pro of their own on-site.
So yeah, they were trying to take advantage of you; it was not the innocent question it originally sounded like.
But I still say, next time nip this whole situation in the bud, and give "friends" a disc even before they ask. If you're a GUEST at a wedding, that makes the couple your HOST, not your CLIENT. Even if they're a greedy host. :-P
=Matt=
Several people keep saying the OP was a guest at the wedding. She said she didn't even know the bride & groom and wasn't one of the invited guests. She was only there to photograph her friend. There wasn't even a mention of "professionally" originally, either. By many definitions, and my own def would agree w/ this-- the pro. in any area is one who is making the bulk of their income with that type of work. Yes, I sell photos. I also play lots of music & get paid for that. But I don't call myself a pro at either one. I earn the bulk of my income doing massage therapy, and in that field, yes, I call myself a pro. The other thing is, for heaven's sakes, she even gave a free print to the bride & groom?? Well, that groom's attitude told me from the very beginning that all he wanted was to get something good for nothing, and she wasn't going to be getting a bunch of biz (or any at all), or even any biz points by giving more stuff away to him. She took the trouble of taking the shots in a public place and there was no reason he couldn't simply buy some prints if he really wanted them rather than ask her to go to even more trouble & hand over more freebies. I mean, he didn't even want to do his share; he just wanted stuff handed to him on a silver platter imho. He could've just waited til he had some $. If he has a motorcycle & is drinking his head off, he's not exactly penniless!
I personally think you have no right to be upset. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but here's my take on it:
If I showed up at an acquaintance's wedding and just started taking pictures and then did portraits for them, I would give them a disc of the photos. YOU decided to take photos of them, they did not hire you or discuss contracting or any of that, you just showed up with camera, and in their eyes, was a guest like everyone else. You think any of the other guests would say "No! You can't have any of the photos I took unless you pay me!"? Of course they wouldn't, regardless of skill level. You were a guest at the wedding, not The Photographer. There is a big difference. I think he has every right to want the images and the right to discuss how the images are used.
I say give them a disc of the photos with a couple business cards and chalk it up to advertising expense. If they like the photos, they'll probably be happy to recommend you. If you tell them that they can't have them without paying you, you are unlikely to get positive words tossed in your direction.
She was only asking for him to take on the responsibility himself for buying some prints if he wanted them. She said she didn't know them, & it was in a public setting. So she didn't owe anything to this guy, who's already starting to act like a jerk. Clearly he wasn't going to be bothered to recommend her if he didn't even contact her until a yr. & a half after the wedding!!! All he wanted was something for nothing. And this groom had no right to go begging the OP to go to even more trouble and crank out a CD & get more stuff for free if he couldn't even bother to cover the cost of some prints. Yeah, maybe you wouldn't say, "you can't have photos unless you pay me". BUT there is no reason you should not say, "sorry, I don't give away my original files for people to print up in any way they see fit." I'll be glad to allow you to pay the cost of printing whatever photos you like from my site. People like that guy are the worst type of characters to be going around handing original files to-- because what they then go off & tell the rest of the world is, "original photos are free for the taking-- just go get 'em & print 'em up yourself." No way is that a good thing... unless maybe it's your friend & you're doing this for their wedding gift, or for whatever other reason you deem meaningful. But that was not the case here. That guy could have even gone & printed up Kat's photos & sold them to others at a profit if he'd wanted to, and the way the story has turned out, I imagine he might have done just that.
You must have a release to use any images on your site and just because the digital image has a lower value now does mean you cannot charge the right price for your art. People hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this.
John, I firmly believe it is a huge blanket generalization to say that "...people hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this."
...People can also HELP themselves and the business by being generous, understanding, or at least flexible. Just because it's "art" and you're a "pro", doesn't mean that money has to be transacted every single time you give someone a disc of your "work"... (I'm sure you'd agree with that, I'm just pointing it out.)
In fact, I think you HURT your business (and the industry) much more by getting people on your bad side... Yes, you gotta stand up for yourself every now and then when push comes to shove, but IMO that is only a last resort for clients who truly ARE being unreasonable and rude. Sure, the couple might have been trying to get something for nothing. Maybe it was the right thing to play hardball this particular time, maybe not. My point is simply about how to make the judgment call- looking for "win-win" options FIRST.
John, (and Kat) I don't know if you've been in business decades or months, so I am NOT implying that the scenario I am about to present is related to YOU. It may not be. It is directed at younger photographers who may lack the wisdom and experience to know what is truly best for their business.
Anyways, here goes: I think one of the bigger problems in the industry is the horde of beginner pros who just took a bunch of workshops and are all pumped up about making their business work no matter what, and not letting clients (or friends, or strangers) "walk all over them" anymore. (And rightfully so! Pros do need to stand up for themselves, charge what they're worth, etc.)
HOWEVER, part of the reason that consumers turn to "friends with cameras" these days, instead of pros, is BECAUSE of this hard-ass mentality that can be a huge turn-off. If you want to earn / recover respect in the industry, if you want to educate people about copyright, what goes into a wedding and why discs shouldn't be handed out like fortune cookies, ...we as an industry MUST be tactful about it otherwise it will be ill-received. Being inflexible, strictly legal, even if it is FAIR for you, will make it much harder to grow your business.
I can understand how anyone who has been in business for over 5-10 years doesn't need to worry about winning every customer, and doesn't need to focus on growth every single day. I understand how veterans will be super annoyed any time a beginner gives away a disc. An established pro can probably afford to "play hardball" with every single client that comes through their doors, and they'll probably make a lot of money doing it.
Do the math: Giving out a disc now could lead to thousands of dollars in referrals down the road, but holding the disc ransom will most likely create an enemy. Also, being generous is a lot better way to get people to listen to you when you wanna teach them about copyright, compared to adding insult to injury. That client doesn't really "learn a lesson; and will probably turn to their "friend with a camera" the next time they need family portraits or wedding photos etc. etc.
Just some opinionated food for thought, of course.
John, I firmly believe it is a huge blanket generalization to say that "...people hurt themselves and the business when they give away a CD like this."
As I like to tell people, "all generalizations are false". And I agree with Matthew -- there definitely are times when giving something away is the right thing to do. Ask any very successful salesman (of which I am not) about this...
About a year and a half ago, a friend asked me if I would meet her at her friends wedding to take shots of her and her husband. I did not know the bride and groom. It was at a public park and I continued to shoot the wedding and even directed family photos as they did not have an "official" photographer. I got some nice shots, put them in my smugmug site and forgot about it. I made no sales except for the gal I went photograph.This morning the groom called and said he wants a CD of all the images. I told him he could purchase them off the website and he said "You are going to charge me for them?" Don't you have to have a release from us? I want them for free. I told him I would just pull them from the site but he insisted he gets all the pictures for nothing. I was still pretty much asleep and when I fully woke up, I was a little upset. I put in a lot of time editing etc. for the experience and even had a photo printed after the ceremony so I could give them one at the reception. Now it feels like he is blackmailing me for my images. ( I obviously don't have a contract or photo release) What should I do? What can I do?
there is a time and place to give up a few...not all but a few...pics for free....I still do.....but with this person....there is no way I would give him or his bride one more single image for free........or I would resize the images to a mere 4x6 at 72 or 90 dpi and put a watermark right through the middle of the image and I would also put a copyright statement on the outside of the CD and a text file on the inside with a copyright statement....one thing going for you is Walmart will no longer print images if they look pro,unless you can prove it is yours to print, I do not know about CVS as I do not know of any in my area.... ...in my area there are 6 walmarts and I am on file at each store with my signature and also with my photo signature..so if a file shows up and has my name across the bottom of the image, it does not get printed with out a phone call to me making sure it is alright to print.......I have started going one step further and I have a jpg image of my copyright statement as the 1st photo on the disk.....that way if they take it to some other processor who tosses it onto his computer that is the first image they see...its title is copyright statement, in large bold letters........and I no longer put burn the images to the disk, it goes into a folder like this: main folder" so and so wedding" (or name of even or whatever is on the disk.....2nd folder (inside 1st) titled copyright statement and images.....open this and now you see 2 more folders one named copyright and the other titled either just images or so and so's wedding....having a folder hierarchy makes the processor aware that the images are copyrighted.....
This type of client would never recommend you to any one even if you gave him several 30x40's for free, He is the type that will bash you no matter what....he will say that he had to threaten a lawsuit to get what he wanted...yadda...yadda ..yadda
So you did not hurt yourself by not giving in to him ...........
I know that I personally have been the guest of a guest at some weddings, and have also been more than happy to give them a copy of the images afterwards. Why? Well, so far it's resulted in 4 subsequent wedding bookings. I know it hurts to give things away for free, but when people see the quality of images that you gave to someone out of the kindness of your heart, then they know without a shadow of a doubt that they will be very well taken care of when they are actually paying for your services. I'm not exactly rolling in money at the moment, but I get most of my business from referrals, so there's got to be something right going on. Do you have rights? Absolutely. Did they know better than to ask for a freebie? Probably. But in the long run will it be worth it to you to make a quick buck off of something you finished a year and a half ago at the expense of good word of mouth, or would it be much better to give something to someone now and give them the warm fuzzies?
Case in point: I recently had a return customer for whom I did some real estate photography back when I was first starting my business. He had a wife that was looking to get into modeling way back then, and he said that when she was ready he would give me a call. I thanked him and thought nothing more of it. But now, three years later, he called me once again to set up those photos because of the high level of customer service that I gave him way back then. You never know where work will come from, but nothing is going to cross a burnt bridge.
If it's possible, try to make a peace offering, and try to potentially see if they would be interested in some additional services once the disk was delivered. If you aren't interested in going through the hassles of burning the disk, would you perhaps consider opening up the gallery so that they could at least download the images?
I know that I personally have been the guest of a guest at some weddings, and have also been more than happy to give them a copy of the images afterwards. Why? Well, so far it's resulted in 4 subsequent wedding bookings. I know it hurts to give things away for free, but when people see the quality of images that you gave to someone out of the kindness of your heart, then they know without a shadow of a doubt that they will be very well taken care of when they are actually paying for your services. I'm not exactly rolling in money at the moment, but I get most of my business from referrals, so there's got to be something right going on. Do you have rights? Absolutely. Did they know better than to ask for a freebie? Probably. But in the long run will it be worth it to you to make a quick buck off of something you finished a year and a half ago at the expense of good word of mouth, or would it be much better to give something to someone now and give them the warm fuzzies?
Case in point: I recently had a return customer for whom I did some real estate photography back when I was first starting my business. He had a wife that was looking to get into modeling way back then, and he said that when she was ready he would give me a call. I thanked him and thought nothing more of it. But now, three years later, he called me once again to set up those photos because of the high level of customer service that I gave him way back then. You never know where work will come from, but nothing is going to cross a burnt bridge.
If it's possible, try to make a peace offering, and try to potentially see if they would be interested in some additional services once the disk was delivered. If you aren't interested in going through the hassles of burning the disk, would you perhaps consider opening up the gallery so that they could at least download the images?
You must not have read all the OP's posts in the thread. This was definitely that kind of case at all. The pics the OP took originally were not even for the bride & groom, who she didn't even know. She clearly was not going to be getting any kind of good work or even good vibes out of this creep, and I have to say, I could sniff that out from the beginning. I agree with many of your points & have done some similar things, but this was just not remotely related to the experiences you're describing.
Ok, this is a bit off topic, but I've really enjoyed reading all the various takes on the OP. So if I may, a question to the more experienced wedding pros here: How would you deal with a "wedding planner" that takes the bride's 'personal use' disc and posts photos on her commercial wedding planning site, without any credit whatsoever?
The quotes around "wedding planner" are because it was one of the most disorganized weddings ever. I provided a veil from my camera bag, since they lost the real one, and the reception started three hours late! The bridal party was stuck in traffic, when not a single guest , nor the photographers took more than ten minutes to get to the reception location. No one would take the route they did to the reception unless they were crazy, or from out of town. The planner was apparently neither. (This was a New York City wedding.) Oh, by the way, the planner was also, at the same time, the maid of honor.
She did not know until the week of the wedding that the couple had hired me, (!) and it seemed that she went out of her way to ignore every request I had. The pictures turned out good anyways, and she e-mailed me a complimentary note after the blog post, telling me she wanted XYZ files for her site. She didn't ask, she just demanded. I tried to be nice and had to say no to those that involved any faces, since there was no model release. The contract was signed only two weeks before the wedding, and I opted to leave out a model release because the bride's English was not fluent, so I was not sure that she would have understood it's meaning. I gave the MOH/planner a few low res, watermarked detail shots of the rings, cake, place settings, etc. But she kept e-mailing, more and more insistently demanding the processional, recessional, first dance, etc...I told her no about five times, and finally explained model releases, copyright laws (federal), and right to publicity laws (New York), letting her know she could not take the brides disc and use images from it, but could only use the images I'd given permission for, prepared, and watermarked.
A few days ago, I counted at least 16 of my pictures on her site. Haven't contacted her as of yet.
By the way, I don't want referrals from her, since she is the world's worst wedding planner. But I was truly trying to keep the peace. Thoughts?
Ask her hosting company to remove the images that are used without your permission, but leave the ones that she does have your permission......or get an attorney to write her a letter asking for the removal of said images......way to many people think they are entitled to FREE images......that we are not supposed to charge for our work, then they turn around and want our work to promote their business........
Comments
Matt is often harsh, but he's often right too.
www.morffed.com
Bottom line for me- creating an "enemy" is FAR worse for your business than risking a funky print on someone's wall. Again, I say this as someone who has seen it discussed countless times, among newbies and veterans, and it's just not really that big of a risk in reality. The far greater risk is if you create a "hater" who happens to have a connection, or even just a vengeful attitude, that can REALLY harm your business.
2.) "Turning down the wrong type of clients" is, in my opinion, another misconception that beginners often make. (anybody in business less than 5 years including myself,
That particular subject is personal to me, because I was turned down by a photographer with the excuse of being busy / booked when they were in fact NOT. Trust me, it hurts. Maybe I just need tougher skin, but either way the photographer lost a fan / client. And I had the pleasant experience of wondering if my wife wasn't hot enough for that photographer's portfolio, or if I wasn't enough of an up-sale, etc. etc. It really did take our self-esteem down a notch.
Like I said, put yourself in the client's shoes... Myself, as a groom who also got married ~2 years ago, ...I feel like it would be downright rude of a semi-stranger to come to MY wedding, snap pictures of MY friends and family, and then try and charge me for the disc. It's just such a personal event, and to have a "stranger" there, even if they're close with another person, well it's really important to the B&G that they know everyone very closely. Kat, I'm not sure if you've been married yet, but that's just how I feel as a married man. It took a lot of stress and hurt feelings to pick who to invite to our wedding, and it was in a semi-public area for part of the day.
If you read my true story that I posted in another topic here, you'll also see that I've had an experience where a TOTAL stranger came in off the street and started snapping pics at one of my client's weddings. That's quite different because it was in fact a complete stranger and that is just CREEPY, but my point is that a bride and groom are very sensitive on their wedding day. It may not feel that way 1.5 years later, I know. But it still would have been in your best interest, or at least it would have made another human being really happy, if you had just burned the disc on their 1-year anniversary and dropped that in the mail with a quick thank-you note, for their letting you, a stranger, into their wedding day.
(Sorry for continuing to pile on after we've sorta concluded this GREAT discussion. I know it's un-necessary, but I guess I just kept typing...)
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
It really doesn't matter that he doesn't bring you one red cent later. As the old marketing adage goes: Make one person happy, she tells two. Make one person mad, and she tells 18...that is the bottom line! You only stand your ground if: it is in writing and they are throwing salt. I don't see this as win win, even if you went ahead and gave him the disc. I do see lose -lose if you do not. Sometimes it's better not to win!
And right there is the reason to never make people angry! Bad press hurts you in way more ways than imaginable.
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But, Kat, I hope you can come to a peaceful and successful resolution.
Oh, ok so my first instinct was correct, it usually is, but seeing everyones opinion on the subject was interesting.
The party was a great networking opportunity. A guy paid me 20 bucks to photograph him singing with the band. I declined the cash, he insisted and it bought my drinks, very cool. I met a couple with 4 kids that wants family portraits. Win-win. The photographer I spoke with is emailing me copyright, photographer legal stuff etc. that he got from his college class. Win... He just got a gig photographing our new arena football team/games and said they may need another shooter. Win Win.
Darren, and get in more trouble for copyright/photography release violation?
lol
Thanks, guys
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
Although, Kat, it is interesting to hear that the couple (groom?) was INDEED trying to take advantage of you, intentionally, even when apparently they KNEW you were shooting professionally for the bridesmaid, and they KNEW that they had no pro of their own on-site.
So yeah, they were trying to take advantage of you; it was not the innocent question it originally sounded like.
But I still say, next time nip this whole situation in the bud, and give "friends" a disc even before they ask. If you're a GUEST at a wedding, that makes the couple your HOST, not your CLIENT. Even if they're a greedy host. :-P
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Please don't censor. I agree with you that this should be a place to freely exchange thoughts, and ideas.
It would be different if names were used.
sam
Please note, I never commented on charging or not charging. My initial concern was the attitude I sensed for the original post. It seemed to me to be somewhat persnickety. More recent posts leads me to believe this was not accurate.
When dealing with clients I really do believe on seeking a win win solution to any issues. I think it's incumbent on us to take a step back and calmly evaluate the situation. Refrain from saying the first thing that pops into your mind. Look for a positive outcome. Instead of allowing the situation to digress into a contest of wills make it a personal challenge to turn it around. Sometimes what you initially perceive to be the issue, isn't the issue at all.
Salvaging what seems to be a lost cause, is so much sweeter than any quick confrontational comments.
If in this situation you have allowed the conversation to go to where the groom believes he is getting the images for free, then I think it might well be best to go ahead and bit the bullet.
NOTE: I recently had a somewhat similar but more contentious situation. In fact it's not quite over, but the client is scheduled to pick up the images tomorrow. And yes they are paying for them.
I cant type fast enough to tell you the whole story, but I was told there was no way in Beelzebub's home town I or any mortal would be able to turn this bridzilla around.
Success is soo sweeeeeet.
Sam
Actually I read right thru the thick of it from the very first post, and though you've since said you have found more than one: win-win. I still don't see much in the win dept. about the original issue. However letting 'him' win is as close to winning as you can get.
Unless I missed it, She was quoting what the other photog told her~
Make that two!
You had mentioned having a smugmug site that isn't linked or in your profile. I was just wanting to see some work. And you took the pictures, why would you risk copyright violations? Anyway, just wanted to look at the work in question. But at this point and after reading the multitude of reactions and suggestions, I can understand your concerns. Carry on.
Without going into all the various scenarios, you statement about needing a release to use ANY images on a website is patently wrong.
As for giving the images away or not, that's up to the photographer, and the circumstances.
Sam
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DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
DayBreak, my Folk Music Group (some free mp3s!) http://daybreakfolk.com
...People can also HELP themselves and the business by being generous, understanding, or at least flexible. Just because it's "art" and you're a "pro", doesn't mean that money has to be transacted every single time you give someone a disc of your "work"... (I'm sure you'd agree with that, I'm just pointing it out.)
In fact, I think you HURT your business (and the industry) much more by getting people on your bad side... Yes, you gotta stand up for yourself every now and then when push comes to shove, but IMO that is only a last resort for clients who truly ARE being unreasonable and rude. Sure, the couple might have been trying to get something for nothing. Maybe it was the right thing to play hardball this particular time, maybe not. My point is simply about how to make the judgment call- looking for "win-win" options FIRST.
John, (and Kat) I don't know if you've been in business decades or months, so I am NOT implying that the scenario I am about to present is related to YOU. It may not be. It is directed at younger photographers who may lack the wisdom and experience to know what is truly best for their business.
Anyways, here goes: I think one of the bigger problems in the industry is the horde of beginner pros who just took a bunch of workshops and are all pumped up about making their business work no matter what, and not letting clients (or friends, or strangers) "walk all over them" anymore. (And rightfully so! Pros do need to stand up for themselves, charge what they're worth, etc.)
HOWEVER, part of the reason that consumers turn to "friends with cameras" these days, instead of pros, is BECAUSE of this hard-ass mentality that can be a huge turn-off. If you want to earn / recover respect in the industry, if you want to educate people about copyright, what goes into a wedding and why discs shouldn't be handed out like fortune cookies, ...we as an industry MUST be tactful about it otherwise it will be ill-received. Being inflexible, strictly legal, even if it is FAIR for you, will make it much harder to grow your business.
I can understand how anyone who has been in business for over 5-10 years doesn't need to worry about winning every customer, and doesn't need to focus on growth every single day. I understand how veterans will be super annoyed any time a beginner gives away a disc. An established pro can probably afford to "play hardball" with every single client that comes through their doors, and they'll probably make a lot of money doing it.
Do the math: Giving out a disc now could lead to thousands of dollars in referrals down the road, but holding the disc ransom will most likely create an enemy. Also, being generous is a lot better way to get people to listen to you when you wanna teach them about copyright, compared to adding insult to injury. That client doesn't really "learn a lesson; and will probably turn to their "friend with a camera" the next time they need family portraits or wedding photos etc. etc.
Just some opinionated food for thought, of course.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
As I like to tell people, "all generalizations are false". And I agree with Matthew -- there definitely are times when giving something away is the right thing to do. Ask any very successful salesman (of which I am not) about this...
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there is a time and place to give up a few...not all but a few...pics for free....I still do.....but with this person....there is no way I would give him or his bride one more single image for free........or I would resize the images to a mere 4x6 at 72 or 90 dpi and put a watermark right through the middle of the image and I would also put a copyright statement on the outside of the CD and a text file on the inside with a copyright statement....one thing going for you is Walmart will no longer print images if they look pro,unless you can prove it is yours to print, I do not know about CVS as I do not know of any in my area.... ...in my area there are 6 walmarts and I am on file at each store with my signature and also with my photo signature..so if a file shows up and has my name across the bottom of the image, it does not get printed with out a phone call to me making sure it is alright to print.......I have started going one step further and I have a jpg image of my copyright statement as the 1st photo on the disk.....that way if they take it to some other processor who tosses it onto his computer that is the first image they see...its title is copyright statement, in large bold letters........and I no longer put burn the images to the disk, it goes into a folder like this: main folder" so and so wedding" (or name of even or whatever is on the disk.....2nd folder (inside 1st) titled copyright statement and images.....open this and now you see 2 more folders one named copyright and the other titled either just images or so and so's wedding....having a folder hierarchy makes the processor aware that the images are copyrighted.....
This type of client would never recommend you to any one even if you gave him several 30x40's for free, He is the type that will bash you no matter what....he will say that he had to threaten a lawsuit to get what he wanted...yadda...yadda ..yadda
So you did not hurt yourself by not giving in to him ...........
Case in point: I recently had a return customer for whom I did some real estate photography back when I was first starting my business. He had a wife that was looking to get into modeling way back then, and he said that when she was ready he would give me a call. I thanked him and thought nothing more of it. But now, three years later, he called me once again to set up those photos because of the high level of customer service that I gave him way back then. You never know where work will come from, but nothing is going to cross a burnt bridge.
If it's possible, try to make a peace offering, and try to potentially see if they would be interested in some additional services once the disk was delivered. If you aren't interested in going through the hassles of burning the disk, would you perhaps consider opening up the gallery so that they could at least download the images?
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Photography makes life worth living, or at least makes it more attractive.
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The quotes around "wedding planner" are because it was one of the most disorganized weddings ever. I provided a veil from my camera bag, since they lost the real one, and the reception started three hours late! The bridal party was stuck in traffic, when not a single guest , nor the photographers took more than ten minutes to get to the reception location. No one would take the route they did to the reception unless they were crazy, or from out of town. The planner was apparently neither. (This was a New York City wedding.) Oh, by the way, the planner was also, at the same time, the maid of honor.
She did not know until the week of the wedding that the couple had hired me, (!) and it seemed that she went out of her way to ignore every request I had. The pictures turned out good anyways, and she e-mailed me a complimentary note after the blog post, telling me she wanted XYZ files for her site. She didn't ask, she just demanded. I tried to be nice and had to say no to those that involved any faces, since there was no model release. The contract was signed only two weeks before the wedding, and I opted to leave out a model release because the bride's English was not fluent, so I was not sure that she would have understood it's meaning. I gave the MOH/planner a few low res, watermarked detail shots of the rings, cake, place settings, etc. But she kept e-mailing, more and more insistently demanding the processional, recessional, first dance, etc...I told her no about five times, and finally explained model releases, copyright laws (federal), and right to publicity laws (New York), letting her know she could not take the brides disc and use images from it, but could only use the images I'd given permission for, prepared, and watermarked.
A few days ago, I counted at least 16 of my pictures on her site. Haven't contacted her as of yet.
By the way, I don't want referrals from her, since she is the world's worst wedding planner. But I was truly trying to keep the peace. Thoughts?