The voting system?

SnapHappy · October 5, 2005

I just thought I would raise this point to gauge everyone's reaction/views on the subject.
No disregard to the current challenge/finalist's, but I think there are possibly too many finalists to choose from.

It seems to be a well documented fact that when anyone has to choose a best item/winner that the choices shouldn't really excess 3 to 5. As this is what the human mind naturally handles. This is taught in many sales/psychology training.
Now I'm not complaining here so please don't all jump on me at once, it is just a mere suggestion and a Question I wanted to check with other members.

How about the guest judge picking their top 10 and then Andy selecting the top 5 from them? Would this improve the competition any?
Another Question I wanted to ask is how does everyone feel about being able to view the results, I have seen on another forum (bad of me I know!!) that they keep the results blind until the finish, then they announce the winner. This seems to be a fairer way to run a vote system.

Your views??

If it 'aint broke don't fix it?

Or would some subtle changes improve the experience?

I would just like to add that this thread is in no way against the current competition, it is just based on my observations of the overall competition. And please don't burn me for raising such a topic.

:tiptoe

:uhoh

gus · October 5, 2005

If i had my way then everyone whom puts a shot up should be in the comp. Its unpracticle but i hate to see any cull...its all the members that make the site & not the few that make the finals.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

DoctorIt · October 5, 2005

Snap, I agree with you on the validity/psych of picking from 3-5 being optimal. But then again, this isn't science, its a forum with lots of contributing members, so I have to side with Gus - leave more in the finals. It's not about the competition or the win necessarily as the motivation. For many, just making the finals is a nice boost, right?

As for the open voting, what's wrong with seeing the results after you vote? As long as noone votes and then posts on how its going, someone who is going to cast their vote has no bias. So I don't see what you mean?

Mitchell · October 5, 2005

I have to agree with Erik. To many of us, these challenges are the only way our photos get judged. I have to say that it has been a personal thrill for me just to have my pics selected for voting. I'll probably never win a challenge, but the occasional selection into the final 10 goes a long way for me (and I suspect many others).

This is just a friendly challenge with a group of nice people. Let's not try to be too scientific here about the psychology of voting.

SnapHappy · October 5, 2005

I may be wrong but I thought that if you logged out before voting then you can see the results so far.

I agree with you both on the fact that the members make the site and I didn't mean to imply any different.

I'm not trying to upset the apple cart here people, I'm just asking for your views on the matter.

ginger_55 · October 5, 2005

Other than making it mandatory that I always make the finals, I am not in favor of change.

I could do an essay on how I feel about "change" in general. And we could have a challenge on "change", it just occurred to me.

But most changes that I have seen do not work well. People seem to gravitate to where they are based on how things are "there", not how things are somewhere else. Since there are so many choices on the internet, etc.........well, we can have things just about any way we want them. Here I kind of like it the "dGrin" way. And I just don't get involved much in other places. A bit at FM, but only since there is a local group of members. It is a bigger, different experience.

I like dGrin for it's "dGrin ness". Please do not change it! (Oh, except for that amendment that automatically makes me a finalist every time.) Now, about the votes............yeah, I want them, too.:uhoh

ginger:D

DoctorIt · October 5, 2005

SnapHappy wrote:

I may be wrong but I thought that if you logged out before voting then you can see the results so far.

You may be right, but do you think this is a common practice? Personally, I haven't logged out in probably a year or so.

I agree with you both on the fact that the members make the site and I didn't mean to imply any different.

I'm not trying to upset the apple cart here people, I'm just asking for your views on the matter.

Discussion is always good, and science is always good, I'm not taking your comments any other way.

Purely science wise, it would be great if we had enough voters to do 2 rounds of voting. First round would have all the submissions, everyone picks their favorite. Second round would be the top 3 from the popular vote, so everyone was forced to narrow down and pick a real winner. Sadly, this would require a much better statistical pool than the 100-200 we seem to getting.

snapapple · October 5, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

Other than making it mandatory that I always make the finals, I am not in favor of change.

Here I kind of like it the "dGrin" way.

I like dGrin for it's "dGrin ness". Please do not change it! (Oh, except for that amendment that automatically makes me a finalist every time.) Now, about the votes............yeah, I want them, too.:uhoh

ginger:D

Ginger, you really brought a smile to my face this morning. I was going to say that I second the motion of making it mandatory that your shot make the finals each time. But, that would take all the fun out of it for you. :snore Ho hum, yeah made the finals again.

We are all adults, arn't we? We can vote without looking at the current results by logging out. I, personally, do not like to be influenced by the current trend. I like to test myself just as if I were a judge. I usually find it easy to pick my top two or three. Then it gets tough to narrow it down to one. Usually, but not always.

The point is, it gets to be a personal thing from there. Different people like different things. That's why we need to have as many as possible in the finals. I have been surprised at the final winner a couple of times. It was not the one that I would have picked. I'll bet Andy has been surprised a time or two as well. Surprise, surprise, not everyone thinks like me.

Some other sites have no voting at all. The "head guy" picks the winner all by himself. Then some sites have the voters chose from all of the entries.(I have really been surprised on these votes.) We have had this discussion several times in the past. Maybe you can still search these threads. What we have now is what we ended up with. This is the best compromise we could come up with given the limitations of the programming (max of ten for the poll). This is the most participatory (guest judging). This pleases most. (I am an adult, but I still get a big charge out of just making the finals.) We all enjoy a little positive reinforcement from time to time.

I appreciate your input Happy, but I have to say, "If it's not broke, don't fix it."

ginger_55 · October 5, 2005

I never knew that you could log out and see the results.

Cool!

ginger (thanks)

I vote for the subject "change" for the next challenge: Pennies From Heaven for me.

(I just vote for my best friend)

I am always hoping they don't "all" get into the finals at once. Could make things interesting.

Higgmeister · October 5, 2005

I think the current system works pretty well. 3-5 choices is not enough when we look at the caliber of shots that are usually submitted. As it is, there are shots that don't make the finals that I feel are worthy of being voted on. So 10 is a nice generic number that includes enough submissions to make it interesting. Take a look at the current challenge and the voting is tight. The winner could be any number of entries and this makes for a good race. Also, who is to say that the guest picker has similar tastes to ourself to pick the best (subjective) shots for the challenge.

There are inherent problems with any voting system, even those where all the participants are voted on. This becomes too unwieldy and keeps some people from voting. I believe we have a good compromise here. I have no problem with change, but let's make the change for the better. I haven't seen any suggestions that make an improvement on this system, but this is just my subjective opinion.

Good topic which has come up several times. Good to get a review periodically,
Chris

Trish323 · October 5, 2005

I feel the best way for a challenge vote is for each photo submitted to be able to get voted on. I never understood why it is done the current way..2 people picking their choices and the rest of us get to vote on their picks.

Seems redundant to me.

I would like to see each photo submitted into a challenge be up for a vote by all who vote. As long as the submitted photo meets all the criteria..why not?

Photography is art..and is viewed by each of us differently based on our own vision of what is considered good or not quite good enough.

I bet if it were done this way there just might be more participation and sense of overall participation in challenges and the voting process. It would certainly give people the sense that their photo has the best chance possible. Afterall, anyone who takes the time to submit a photo, should get an equal shot at receiving a vote. It couldn't possibly be that more difficult to have each persson listed in the voting que.

..And to add... photos listed in the voting que should always be listed in order of submission, and photos should be in the same order when viewing.

Just my 2 cents. How do you feel about this?

-trish

Andy · October 5, 2005

Trish323 wrote:

I feel the best way for a challenge vote is for each photo submitted to be able to get voted on. I never understood why it is done the current way..2 people picking their choices and the rest of us get to vote on their picks.

Seems redundant to me.

I would like to see each photo submitted into a challenge be up for a vote by all who vote. As long as the submitted photo meets all the criteria..why not?

Photography is art..and is viewed by each of us differently based on our own vision of what is considered good or not quite good enough.

I bet if it were done this way there just might be more participation and sense of overall participation in challenges and the voting process. It would certainly give people the sense that their photo has the best chance possible. Afterall, anyone who takes the time to submit a photo, should get an equal shot at receiving a vote. It couldn't possibly be that more difficult to have each persson listed in the voting que.

..And to add... photos listed in the voting que should always be listed in order of submission, and photos should be in the same order when viewing.

Just my 2 cents. How do you feel about this?

-trish

sure, this makes great sense if

the system allowed it and
there were more hours in the day and
i got a raise in pay for admin-ing the challenge

this ground has been trod many times before. the current system is what came out of the last major discussion regarding the challenges. i'm not sure what you mean by "redundant?"

and as far as the order of photos mixup trish in the current challenge voting, i thought for sure it was settled in my pm to you, i'm really very sorry i mixed up the order of entries. i think if you look back at the previous 48 challenges you'd see that i've got a pretty good track record. sorry again for my mistake.

XO-Studios · October 5, 2005

Trish323 wrote:

<SNIP>..And to add... photos listed in the voting que should always be listed in order of submission, and photos should be in the same order when viewing.

<SNIP>

-trish

On that same note, I would say, people should be more thoughtful submitting pictures to the challenge. Too often I see people just put a picture up to 'claim' one of those coveted first page spots, only to change that picture later on. Maybe it should be a system that says: ' hey whatever you submit, that is it'

I think this is the price for success, the bigger the community, the least likely the honor system will work.

Also, I personally like the pre-screening; too often I see shots (myself included in that) that are, if viewed objectively, snapshots at best. This is not to be mean or elitist, but the pre-screening sets the bar of what to consider for voting.

FWIW,

XO,

Andy · October 5, 2005

XO-Studios wrote:

On that same note, I would say, people should be more thoughtful submitting pictures to the challenge. Too often I see people just put a picture up to 'claim' one of those coveted first page spots, only to change that picture later on. Maybe it should be a system that says: ' hey whatever you submit, that is it

interesting point xo

i can assure you that order of placement (entry) in the challenge thread has absolutely zero influence on how the finalists are picked. none, zip, nada, zilch.

now as to voting, i should think that the dgrin community is sophisticated and fair enough that they will actually view all ten photos, and choose, regardless of where the winner (in their mind) is placed?

i think the whole placement thing is much ado about nothing

SnapHappy · October 5, 2005

Trish, i like your idea but my only concern with everyone having the chance of a vote is that a lot more people would enter and if the Quality of those pic's was low they would likely receive no or very little votes. I think that would deter newcomers. It would certainly deter me.
By having finalists you know that the Quality of the pictures is going to be similar.

It's good to hear other opinions...............even if they are all wrong

(that was a joke!)

:uhoh

Harryb · October 5, 2005

Trish323 wrote:

I feel the best way for a challenge vote is for each photo submitted to be able to get voted on. I never understood why it is done the current way..2 people picking their choices and the rest of us get to vote on their picks.

Seems redundant to me.

I would like to see each photo submitted into a challenge be up for a vote by all who vote. As long as the submitted photo meets all the criteria..why not?

Photography is art..and is viewed by each of us differently based on our own vision of what is considered good or not quite good enough.

I bet if it were done this way there just might be more participation and sense of overall participation in challenges and the voting process. It would certainly give people the sense that their photo has the best chance possible. Afterall, anyone who takes the time to submit a photo, should get an equal shot at receiving a vote. It couldn't possibly be that more difficult to have each persson listed in the voting que.

..And to add... photos listed in the voting que should always be listed in order of submission, and photos should be in the same order when viewing.

Just my 2 cents. How do you feel about this?

-trish

Since I don't enter the challenges I'm fairly neutral on it. From my experiences with photo challenges I can safely say that so far every method I've seen of conducting these challenges here and on other sites sucks. There's simply no "fair" way of running one of these things.

The way I see it Dgrin has a way to run these challenges. Does it suck? Yep but so would any other alternative method. So why exchange one sucky method for another sucky method? Just enjoy the one we have, enter if you wish just don't take it that seriously.

ginger_55 · October 5, 2005

OK, this is how I really feel said in a different way. This is dGrin. Andy is in charge as far as I know. There are moderators. No one has ever put this stuff to a vote as far as I know.

I do not think this is a democracy. It has been run a certain way for quite awhile now. I do not understand when new people come in and complain. Or when people think they can change things. I understand a bit on the more long time users than the newer ones.

I cannot imagine going to FM and telling Fred Miranda how to run his shop. I don't understand why people seem to think this is a democracy here.

I personally don't care how the challenge is run. I once did a bit, but not in any way we are discussing here. So, if anyone wants to change it, well how are they going to effect that for one thing, and for another, it will not affect me that much. But are you really thinking of telling Andy what to do, or are you all going to run the challenge yourselves?

I would like to add that I have played with the thought of placement of photos as to who gets chosen, etc at times. And I would also like to say that the last challenge I won I entered my photo just before noon at the closing, I was in the last position. And it won.

I would also like to say that some people seem to take great pride in things that are not often of consideration, such as not changing their entry. Right now you can do that. Also the photoshop thing, most challenges allow any and all photoshop, so if one doesn't do it, it is just a choice thing, but not germaine to the challenge at hand. Unless like the last one.

I am putting no humor in here, at great restraint. But I have really wondered about these long threads re change when this is not up for a vote.

ginger (I know I shouldn't post this, but I am going to. I know that it could be said that the powers that be would like feedback, and I can understand that, but this never seems quite like feedback to me.)

While I was ranting, Harry was posting. I agree with Harry.

Andy · October 5, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

I do not think this is a democracy

good post, ginger

but it is fairly democratic, as the challenge has evolved to the current state by virture of public discussion and input.... just to be crystal clear - this is a free and open site, and so long as the content doesn't violate the dgrin rules, anything is open for posting and discussion. as to rule and format changes, well, i've explained many times that i simply cannot do anything that means more work on my part to administer the challenges....

i'm only one guy :bash

thanks everyone for the valuable input!

Mitchell · October 5, 2005

Please people, don't let this discussion degenerate and cause ill will. People have left this site after being hurt by this very same discussion.

As Andy said, this has been discussed several times before. The site will not allow polling for all of the entries. The present system may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Andy is kind enough to spend his time and energy on these challenges as host. The various guest hosts in the form of previous winners keeps it from being the "Andy Challenge". It is always interesting to me that the two selectors always match on the majority of the finalists.

SnapHappy · October 5, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

I do not understand when new people come in and complain. Or when people think they can change things. I understand a bit on the more long time users than the newer ones.

Forgive me ginger for editing the above.

I just wanted to make it clear I had no intention of upsetting anyone, nor changing things. It was something I just wanted to open to discussion.

If this is going to upset people then we should put the topic to bed and move on...........

to the 'dirty' challenge.

peace&

Higgmeister · October 5, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

I do not think this is a democracy. It has been run a certain way for quite awhile now. I do not understand when new people come in and complain. Or when people think they can change things.

I agree, it's not a democracy, but it is a community made up by all of us. If the powers that be (for this site) came down and said that this is the way it's going to be, no discussion allowed (as happened on another forum), then many people would find a new home (many of us now call DGrin home).

Yes, it's been hashed several times before, but I find it good to rehash old topics every now and then. As the site grows, now people have new ideas and who knows, maybe just one of them will come up with something better. If not, no harm done and if so, then we get something for it. Without these discussions, there would be no change, hence, no improvement. I don't like change for change sake, but I look forward to change for improvement sake.

Ginger, this isn't aimed at you. You mentioned something and I thought I'd add my .02 (up to .04 now) in this spot.

.04 and counting,
Chris

Harryb · October 5, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

I do not think this is a democracy. It has been run a certain way for quite awhile now. I do not understand when new people come in and complain. Or when people think they can change things. I understand a bit on the more long time users than the newer ones.

Gosh there's is nothing wrong with new folks expressing their ideas. They might have ideas that could improve things. The "whipping post" forum got its start from a "complaint" from a noob. Being here a long time imparts one no special status or wisdom.

I cannot imagine going to FM and telling Fred Miranda how to run his shop. I don't understand why people seem to think this is a democracy here.

Heck I have a few ideas that will make Fred's site a whole lot better but he just won't listen. Oh well his loss.

But are you really thinking of telling Andy what to do, or are you all going to run the challenge yourselves?

Why not? Andy can use all the help he can get.

I am putting no humor in here, at great restraint. But I have really wondered about these long threads re change when this is not up for a vote.

Change and discussion are usually good things. I want to help make Dgrin to be the best photography forum on the net. The best way way to achieve that is through discussion and an exchange of ideas.

While I was ranting, Harry was posting. I agree with Harry.

Always a very wise position to take.

Trish323 · October 5, 2005

andy wrote:

sure, this makes great sense if
the system allowed it and

there were more hours in the day and

i got a raise in pay for admin-ing the challenge

this ground has been trod many times before. the current system is what came out of the last major discussion regarding the challenges. i'm not sure what you mean by "redundant?"

and as far as the order of photos mixup trish in the current challenge voting, i thought for sure it was settled in my pm to you, i'm really very sorry i mixed up the order of entries. i think if you look back at the previous 48 challenges you'd see that i've got a pretty good track record. sorry again for my mistake.

Hey Andy,

Yea, I guess time is an issue. I have not ever been a moderator so I am not aware of the time you guys put in, or what is involved. I added my 2 cents.

What I mean by "redundant" : photos are picked and then judged. In my mind I saw this as an extra step.....hence my thought of...just everyone vote on everything submitted. It is a challenge...and that means for everyone at every level...I for one would enjoy seeing where I stood each time I submitted. How else does one learn?

And lastly, the photo mix-up..'nuff said.
-Trish

Trish323 · October 5, 2005

Harryb wrote:

Since I don't enter the challenges I'm fairly neutral on it. From my experiences with photo challenges I can safely say that so far every method I've seen of conducting these challenges here and on other sites sucks. There's simply no "fair" way of running one of these things.

The way I see it Dgrin has a way to run these challenges. Does it suck? Yep but so would any other alternative method. So why exchange one sucky method for another sucky method? Just enjoy the one we have, enter if you wish just don't take it that seriously.

Yes harry,
It is the truth..for every member there is a different viewpoint. I am not into the drama. I join in as time allows and just go with the flow. Not here to get serious, here to learn and enjoy.
_Trish

Trish323 · October 5, 2005

SnapHappy wrote:

Trish, i like your idea but my only concern with everyone having the chance of a vote is that a lot more people would enter and if the Quality of those pic's was low they would likely receive no or very little votes. I think that would deter newcomers. It would certainly deter me.
By having finalists you know that the Quality of the pictures is going to be similar.

It's good to hear other opinions...............even if they are all wrong (that was a joke!)

:uhoh

Maybe.

Andy · October 5, 2005

Trish323 wrote:

Hey Andy,

I added my 2 cents.

and, i thank you for it

it's all good ....

rutt · October 5, 2005

For what it's worth (what you paid for it), I've gotten a lot out of these challenges and have never won one. I used to get all bent out of shape if my shot wasn't picked, but now I seem to care more about the experience of shooting for the challenge, of trying to see in a way that will work for the challenge. Sometimes I play and often not. Usually when I do play I have something in mind and often I end up either seeing why that wouldn't have worked, wasn't a fully formed idea, or that I just failed to execute it as well as I could have. So I get something out of playing when I do. I suppose if I won, that would be great, but one thing I've already gotten from the challenges is a better ability to judge my own shots and confidence in that judgement. So now, I'll know if I shoot a winner, whether it actually does win or not.

LiquidOps · October 5, 2005

OOOH OOOH

can we all get stickers to wear that say "I Voted" after we vote????

Steven

ginger_55 · October 5, 2005

OOOH OOOH

can we all get stickers to wear that say "I Voted" after we vote????

______________________________________

Now I like that idea and I think we should all just ram it on through. hehe.

However, maybe, and I would like it if we substituted the dGrin official bird: the Regal Great White Egret for the flag. However, something to say we voted, I think that is cool.

Of course we could just do that. After all if Rutt can give himself a promotion in his signature, on our honor, we could just add something about voting to ours. Or there could maybe be a place by our avatar, don't know if there is enough room for that.

Also, there is nothing to stop anyone from having their own little contest and judge all the photos. I guess it would not be wise for me to say you could have a splinter group, but we did that in the dog club. For years I have belonged to the main group and a very small group, too.

Oh, hum,

ginger (I did vote! a long time ago, the sec I saw the list, for the best one in there, smile! And since there are many really good photos.............)

davev · October 5, 2005

2 more cents.

I think this was talked about a short time ago, and at that time Andy told us
that it wasn't possible to include all the entries cause the software only
supports 10 pics.

If you really want a chance to vote on every pic, go over to dpreview and
enter some of the challenges there. The Sony, Canon, CSLR forums all give you
the shot to vote for every pic.

I think the weeding out system is working pretty good here.
I'd like to see it stay the way it is.

Flyinggina · October 5, 2005

rutt wrote:

For what it's worth (what you paid for it), I've gotten a lot out of these challenges and have never won one. I used to get all bent out of shape if my shot wasn't picked, but now I seem to care more about the experience of shooting for the challenge, of trying to see in a way that will work for the challenge. ... but one thing I've already gotten from the challenges is a better ability to judge my own shots and confidence in that judgement. So now, I'll know if I shoot a winner, whether it actually does win or not.

Couldn't have put it better myself. That said, having a discussion from time to time about the challenge and its rules is a good thing. It helps to integrate the newer members into the philosophy of the Dgrin community and gives everyone a chance to rethink the system. It also causes us all to stop and think of the work that Andy does to facilitate the challenges. So thanks, Darren, for raising the issue.

Va

The voting system?

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