Dgrin and Smugmug Better than the rest

time2smile

I need to Vent...

I've been here for a few years, paying my $150,

I consider this the best site and forum on the web.

We need to increase our ethics on getting ripped off, I recommend a negative feedback trend, and consideration for members that are deliberately trying to rip our family off. if someone is trying to sell for a greater amount than retail, we should voice our opinion, and if a member has ripped someone off, and then tries to sell on the site, we should remember that issue, and comment all we want....

We are Smug and we are Great.........

jwear

I would second and third this

Seymore

Well, my $.02...
...and playing devils advocate

I believe most of us live in the US of A where capitalism lives and if someone wants to ask double or triple what the going rate is, that's their right... right? But don't expect it to sell. You also need to remember that anyone who doesn't do their own education about what they are going to plop down good money on could be doomed to learn a lesson the hard way. That's life in this country these days and what makes it somewhat hard(er) to live here. More and more one has to educate, or be educated, about life in America.

Oh, and I don't think that DG needs to alienate people who want to sell, but fear retaliation. That said, I think that neg feedback would heighten this and drive off prospective sellers and buyers alike. Not what DG hopes for, I would think.


(nothing personal here Ted) Have you never been con'd or paid more than you should have? I have and learned a long long long time ago that I have to cross my "t's" and dot my "i's", else I don't speak in complete sentences and deserve what I get.

DoctorIt

I consider this the best site and forum on the web.

Hey thanks


But, now, a very important note...

I've been here for a few years, paying my $150,
...
We are Smug and we are Great.........

Smugmug and DGrin are not one and the same entity. Please, realize that your Smugmug account fee (the $150 you mention) has absolutely zero correlation here, especially in the Flea Market. DGrin is a free and open forum for any digital photographer.


As for your negative feedback suggestion, I appreciate your sentiment, however, the answer is absolutely not. How do I approve or substantiate negative claims? Exactly, I can't. As mentioned in our guidelines, we don't take sides, we don't research, we don't approve, we just give you a place to trade and as long as basic courtesy is followed, we let you post and discuss all you want in each others threads (not the case on all FS forums).

Seymore, great post, you've been around long enough to know exactly what I would have posted further on this matter.

angevin1

time2smile wrote: »

We need to increase our ethics on getting ripped off, I recommend a negative feedback trend, and consideration for members that are deliberately trying to rip our family off. if someone is trying to sell for a greater amount than retail, we should voice our opinion, and if a member has ripped someone off, and then tries to sell on the site, we should remember that issue, and comment all we want....

We are Smug and we are Great.........

You know. It happened to me last year: that I did a trade. Turns out the cat was dishonest, never sent me HIS trade..... I got lucky and got my lens back, which I later sold. But, he lied and I was totally at his mercy had he wanted to carry his dishonesty further. I followed his thread closely after that, and due to my post being in it in a not so pleasant way, I think everyone got the drift without me ever saying a word publicly on his dishonesty. And yeah, like Seymore mentioned, If I want to advertise my Nikon D700 for a clean $3k, there really is nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,

Pupator

I disagree on the need to price-police. If something is priced higher than retail, it probably isn't going to sell. The buyer will eventually get the idea. If it does sell, what does that matter to anyone other than buyer and seller? If the seller was willing to pay it, why is it someone else's business?

I totally agree on the need for a feedback-type mechanism that includes neutral or negative feedback. I like the way NikonCafe has handled this in their B/S/T forum.

Erik - you suggest that a reason against negative feedback is that you cannot verify it. You can't verify the positive feedback either, so why allow it? Someone could come in, set up 5 user accounts, "sell" a bunch of things to themselves to build a positive reputation, and then use that reputation to scam people. Far-fetched? A bit. I think the idea that we'd have a massive influx of false negative feedback is equally far-fetched. Frankly, negative feedback is far more useful to me than positive. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

DoctorIt

Pupator wrote: »

Erik - you suggest that a reason against negative feedback is that you cannot verify it. You can't verify the positive feedback either, so why allow it?

Sure, you're right. But, I get the impression most folks like to have a place to drop a quick, positive note as a sort of thank you. Let's be realistic, this is still a pretty small community with very little actual trading traffic (maybe 1 or 2 transactions a day on average) - truly malicious scammers are not going to bother here, we're a tiny target.

Michaelinitaly

I agree that you should allow negative feedback. But not sure how much good it would do. If someone has pulled a scam or been dishonest, they can create a new account and go on selling as sellers are not verified. I don't think that the fact that an admin can verify a negative has any validity as how can any admin on any site verify a negative feedback?

Sam

Lets see how long this post remains before being deleted.

One negative, detrimental and disgusting trend I have noticed over the years is what I would call the vanishing concept of right and wrong, ethics, honor and helping others.

Let me try and use an analogy. We are neighbors, and one day I notice someone entering your house through a window. Would you prefer I call the police, call you, or go my merry way saying ain't none of my business you should have been smarter and had an alarm system, I don't want to get involved, etc?

Or how about one day we meet and you tell me about being ripped off by a roofing company, and I say yeah, I know those guys they ripped me off last year. I saw them down at your place and hopped you would figure out they were crooks on your own. Too bad for you.

I have met many wonderful people here and have formed a connection with them. If I have knowledge that will help them avoid a scam or help them with determining a fair price for something I would really like to do that.

While I do understand the hesitation of allowing unsubstantiated negative feed back I think we are a virtual community and I think communities should look out for each other. How we reconcile that should be the question, not how we limit comments to only the approved positive statements.

Sam

Andy

Sam wrote: »

Lets see how long this post remains before being deleted.

Sam, you've been here long enough to know that we don't delete posts unless they are inflammatory, threatening, or use foul language.

Sam

Andy wrote: »

Sam, you've been here long enough to know that we don't delete posts unless they are inflammatory, threatening, or use foul language.

I self medicated, meditated, then posted.

Sam

DoctorIt

Sam,
You make some great points, for sure. To try and stay on the topic of this thread: Are we going to create a negative feedback thread? Never, end of story. However, do we limit the community from helping each other? Of course not! All your comments are valid, and certainly, if dgrinners have information to share, we welcome that, unless, of course "they are inflammatory, threatening, or use foul language."

Sam

Eric,

Perhaps I misunderstood:

Just to be clear, If say I have a bad and or fraudulent experience dealing with someone posting / responding to the for sale forum I can post the facts about this as long as "they are not inflammatory, threatening, or use foul language."?

Sam

DoctorIt

Sam wrote: »

Eric,

Perhaps I misunderstood:

Just to be clear, If say I have a bad and or fraudulent experience dealing with someone posting / responding to the for sale forum I can post the facts about this as long as "they are not inflammatory, threatening, or use foul language."?

Sam

And just the facts, yes. For example, if you go into a purchase and it goes awry, I would let an informative post stand in that very same FS thread. A new thread, started purely to accuse a member of fraud, would be deleted.

Sam

DoctorIt wrote: »

And just the facts, yes. For example, if you go into a purchase and it goes awry, I would let an informative post stand in that very same FS thread. A new thread, started purely to accuse a member of fraud, would be deleted.

Thanks for your reply. I have only had a few transaction with Digital Grim members and all have been great, and I would like to see it remain that way. If there is a predator in the neighborhood we need sound the alarm.

I will clearly state that I agree with you only the facts are needed.

EX: "I attempted to buy item XXX from, (name). I sent him / her XXX dollars three weeks ago on XX/XX/XX, and as of today XX/XX/XX I have not received the item or been able to contact (name). I have filed a complaint with XXX and XXX."

Notice I said three weeks NOT 3 days. We want to be accurate and informative not start gossip or petty / vindictive threads.

Sam

Pupator

I've seen posts almost just like that before that were deleted because "we do not allow unverifiable, negative feedback." Your post wouldn't survive. The crook would complain via post or PM and the Mod would say "we don't get into he-said she-said disputes." Then your non-threatening, no foul language post would be in the trash bin with the rest of them.

Pupator

Erik,

Is what you stated above (leaving a post that you deem informative and just the facts, as long as it is in the original thread) consistent with the posted forum guidelines?

Disputes: Dgrin and SmugMug take no responsibility for any transactions that occur via this flea market. All transactions are entirely between the buying and selling parties and in the case of a dispute, should be resolved in private. Any posts containing negative comments or accusations regarding a disputed transaction will be deleted without notice. Dgrin will not mediate disputes. However, if you suspect a malicious or fraudulent buyer/seller, please report this to the moderator or any Dgrin admin.

It seems to me that if I post a "just the facts" report of a bad transaction it is still simply an "accusation regarding a disputed transaction."

DoctorIt

Pupator wrote: »

I've seen posts almost just like that before that were deleted because "we do not allow unverifiable, negative feedback." Your post wouldn't survive. The crook would complain via post or PM and the Mod would say "we don't get into he-said she-said disputes." Then your non-threatening, no foul language post would be in the trash bin with the rest of them.

This is true, but in each case where that happened, posts were deleted because it escalated beyond a simple informational post. Just this week, someone posted to the effect that money was sent with no follow-up reply in 8 days (no accusation, just "hey, it's been 8 days, what's up?"). In a case like that, that's a logical post to make, after PM's and emails have been attempted.

Dirquist

I read most of this thread but maybe not as close as I could have so please excuse me if Im way off base. Another site Im on has a section for feedback. Basically its very simple and works like this. I post my lens or whatever for sale. Once I sell it the buyer starts a thread with my name as the subject in the feedback section of the site. He makes a post in the thread on how the transaction went. After that first time you can put a link to the thread in your sig or profile. Each time you sell or buy something you post in each others thread on how things went. Some people have page after page of sales and feedback and others just a few. It can be up to the buyer or seller how much weight they want to put into the feedback. Some peeps will only buy/sell to people with more feedback but it gives everyone a good chance to better evaluate the possible trustworthiness of the other person. It seems like a fairly successful system that I would like to see here. There is no price policing however, just feedback on each other for the timeliness of payment, shipping and all the other variables.

Foques

^^
dirquist, many forums use this option, and I never use it because threads like that are worthless, and just an inconvenience in general.

many forums are also using a feedback system (one keen to that one of Ebay). but again it is inconvenient.

As to original post.. If I want to try and sell my items at 3x more than they worth, it is nobody else's business but mine to ask that cost. Later, if item doesn't sell, I will figure that it I need to lower it. If I don't realize this, as a seller, then.. well "too bad for me".
That said, if someone goes ahead and buys my item at the asked cost.. well, "too bad for them"; should've done the research.

as far as reporting those who have ripped a member off.. I see no problem with a member posting a topic "FYI, this guys ripped me off", and explaining the situation, and letting the other fellow reply. will it add drama to the board? Absolutely. Will it help to resolve issues? Yep. Will it help future buyers? probably.

On the other hand, as Erik mentioned, this is a free trade/sell zone. If you want the ability to enforce things, free, public forum isn't your best choice, perhaps. The problem with allowing things like that is those people who take things to an extreme, put on the cape and try to become an internet police.

Sam

Foques wrote: »

^^
dirquist,
As to original post.. If I want to try and sell my items at 3x more than they worth, it is nobody else's business but mine to ask that cost. Later, if item doesn't sell, I will figure that it I need to lower it. If I don't realize this, as a seller, then.. well "too bad for me".
That said, if someone goes ahead and buys my item at the asked cost.. well, "too bad for them"; should've done the research.
.

Question for you: If you posted an item for sale and were asking say $1200, and if a member were to ask if this was a fair price, and I know that this item could be purchased brand new for say $800 how would you like me to respond?

Should I ignore the question? Should I post what I know? Would you take exception to me letting the potential purchaser know that they could but a new one for 50% less?

Now turn this around and say you are the one asking about an item for sale. Shall I inform you, or let you go ahead and buy a used item for 50% more than a new one would cost?

OK so your so smart and savvy you would never make a mistake like that. How about if it were your mom, or your wife? Would you appreciate someone helping out or continue to think it's non of their business and they should have let your loved one be ripped off?

Sam

catspaw

well, nothing stopping anyone from PM'ing the question asker with their POV on the price. no need to be rude about it, but a useful link can sometimes be helpful.

Foques

Sam, so many of your comments are just filled with hatred towards the technology, and the way how things are done these days. I get it, you like your older, more personal, ways.. but time to catch up to the 21st century.

To answer your questions, i'd rather you stay out of the topic. All you do by commenting in it is bumping the thread. Now, if the SELLER was to ask this question, that is a different question.

My second half always checks in with me on prices, specifically, because I have my hands on a lot of data sources... Again, if a person isn't intelligent enough to run a search query (lord, it takes 5 seconds to type things into google), then it is their wallet on the line.

If you are one of those internet police enforcers, just like Leah mentioned, a PM is a great way to communicate. Which is exactly what I do when I have an offer on a price.

Sam

Foques wrote: »

Sam, so many of your comments are just filled with hatred towards the technology, and the way how things are done these days. I get it, you like your older, more personal, ways.. but time to catch up to the 21st century.

Wow, I had no idea I was filled with so much hatred. Wait......you said hatred towards the technology, Which "the" technology would that be? Just so I know what I am hating.

Yes I do, as most do, like my personal ways. As for catching up with the 21st century, I have stared using electricity, horseless carriages, computers, all kinds of wireless thingys, and I even have a color TV.

To answer your questions, i'd rather you stay out of the topic. All you do by commenting in it is bumping the thread. Now, if the SELLER was to ask this question, that is a different question.

I would rather people didn't object to others trying to help, and not champion the idea of yeah for me and if someone is dumb enough screw them.

My second half always checks in with me on prices, specifically, because I have my hands on a lot of data sources... Again, if a person isn't intelligent enough to run a search query (lord, it takes 5 seconds to type things into google), then it is their wallet on the line. That of course wasn't the question. Just because someone isn't the smartest or most knowledgeable about all things doesn't mean they are fair game for the unscrupulous. Again the concept of a community helping each other.

If you are one of those internet police enforcers, just like Leah mentioned, a PM is a great way to communicate. Which is exactly what I do when I have an offer on a price.

I don't believe I am or have been acting like the internet police. For the record if I ever post an item for sale at a ridiculous or inappropriate price, feel free to post your objections. When I sell something I am trying to sell it for a fair price, not rip anyone off. So if for some reason I am out of line let me know I will thank you.

As to original post.. If I want to try and sell my items at 3x more than they worth, it is nobody else's business but mine to ask that cost. Later, if item doesn't sell, I will figure that it I need to lower it. If I don't realize this, as a seller, then.. well "too bad for me".
That said, if someone goes ahead and buys my item at the asked cost.. well, "too bad for them"; should've done the research.

When I read a post like this I am saddened to think we are loosing the concept of right, wrong and fairness. After rereading a post like this (and you arn't the only one expressing this) would you have confidence in doing business with this person?

Sam

Foques

how is this a bad business practice?!
Sam, every retail store does this. Look at BestBuy ( I used to work there, so know pricing).. Printer cables marketed as "dynex" cost BBY a whopping 24c. Cables sell, however, for 27$+.. are they wrong of doing so? Absolutely not. This is called business.
why should they account for consumer's lack of common sense?

Anyone has right of asking whatever they want for what they want to sell.. It is their business only,. not mine, not yours, not moderator's. If buyer is willing to pay 3x of the standard price, how is it your problem? how is it my problem? All I see is that you are accusing ME and people who I share this opinion with of being wrong, unfair and bad business people.

And, while horseless carriages are of a great popularity to you, I think you still need to figure out quotation on the forum.

I commented on hatred strictly based off all the negative replies to provide when people ask about facebook, myspace, ebay, online business practices. Perhaps, I am wrong, but that's the feel I get. Apologies, if I am wrong.

That of course wasn't the question. Just because someone isn't the smartest or most knowledgeable about all things doesn't mean they are fair game for the unscrupulous. Again the concept of a community helping each other.

Obviously. but she made into an example area, regardless
I have extremely low tolerance for people who just expect everything to be granted and given to them. If you want a decent pay, you have to work hard, don't you agree? If you want to be good at anything, you have to practice, right? So, how is it different for you getting a good deal?
Maybe, I'm wrong in doing so, but whenever I am looking to invest my money into an expensive piece, I will build my budget, I will see if I want it on my CC or to be paid off all at once, I will explore what the average price point is.. I will analyze how soon I need/want the item, and act from there.
Perhaps, that is why I was able to get great prices on my lenses and cameras (as you may recall from the other thread).

Sam

Foques wrote: »

how is this a bad business practice?!
Sam, every retail store does this. Look at BestBuy ( I used to work there, so know pricing).. Printer cables marketed as "dynex" cost BBY a whopping 24c. Cables sell, however, for 27$+.. are they wrong of doing so? Absolutely not. This is called business.
why should they account for consumer's lack of common sense?

Anyone has right of asking whatever they want for what they want to sell.. It is their business only,. not mine, not yours, not moderator's. If buyer is willing to pay 3x of the standard price, how is it your problem? how is it my problem? All I see is that you are accusing ME and people who I share this opinion with of being wrong, unfair and bad business people.

And, while horseless carriages are of a great popularity to you, I think you still need to figure out quotation on the forum.

I commented on hatred strictly based off all the negative replies to provide when people ask about facebook, myspace, ebay, online business practices. Perhaps, I am wrong, but that's the feel I get. Apologies, if I am wrong.


Obviously. but she made into an example area, regardless
I have extremely low tolerance for people who just expect everything to be granted and given to them. If you want a decent pay, you have to work hard, don't you agree? If you want to be good at anything, you have to practice, right? So, how is it different for you getting a good deal?
Maybe, I'm wrong in doing so, but whenever I am looking to invest my money into an expensive piece, I will build my budget, I will see if I want it on my CC or to be paid off all at once, I will explore what the average price point is.. I will analyze how soon I need/want the item, and act from there.
Perhaps, that is why I was able to get great prices on my lenses and cameras (as you may recall from the other thread).

Arseny,

First, thank you for a civil response concerning our differing opinions. Although with your more detailed explanations we may not be as far apart as we seem.

I am sure your right about figuring out quotation on the forum. I don't even know what your referring to so I'm sure I done sumptim wrong.

I think when I see facebook, twitter, myspace, I do see many negatives, and probably miss whatever benefits there are. I admit I don't get it when it comes to the social networks, but I don't hate them. Some of my responses are meant to be a little overstated. Yes, sometimes I am even grumpy.

Ebay does concern me. I see a lot of used items going for more than new prices. I think the regulation is spotty at best. I get the feeling it's a little like the old west, if the sheriff is around your in luck, but if he's on a coffee break your toast. You do seem to need PayPal to effectively use Ebay. Paypal policies forbid adding on a fee to the buyer for using Paypal yest everyone does it. I had a Paypal account once. I can't even remember now what the issue was but I couldn't get them to respond. No phone number, would not answer emails? Then it took me months to cancel the account.

Perhaps I could take another look at Ebay and Paypal.

Now as to retail stores. Most aren't ripping people off. lets use your cable example. Profit margins for a retail store are a combination of products sold at different margins, but if the majority of retail outlets are selling these cables for $27.00 then they are competitive.

In a general sense I see / hear more people today openly expressing philosophies of good for me screw you, and it profoundly saddens me. If someone in your / my community is deliberately taking advantage of our neighbors I do believe we have an obligation to oppose and if possible stop these activities.

This isn't about giving people anything they haven't worked for. It's simply trying to do the right thing. Trust me on one thing even if doubt everything else. I am not a namby pamby politically correct teary eyed nut wack trying to take what you worked so hard for and giving it away to those who won't work for it!

If you have never made a mistake or been taken advantage of you haven't done anything or tried to reach out and expand your life. Without failure there is no success.

Sam

Foques

Sam wrote: »

Arseny,

First, thank you for a civil response concerning our differing opinions. Although with your more detailed explanations we may not be as far apart as we seem.

I am sure your right about figuring out quotation on the forum. I don't even know what your referring to so I'm sure I done sumptim wrong.

I think when I see facebook, twitter, myspace, I do see many negatives, and probably miss whatever benefits there are. I admit I don't get it when it comes to the social networks, but I don't hate them. Some of my responses are meant to be a little overstated. Yes, sometimes I am even grumpy.

Ebay does concern me. I see a lot of used items going for more than new prices. I think the regulation is spotty at best. I get the feeling it's a little like the old west, if the sheriff is around your in luck, but if he's on a coffee break your toast. You do seem to need PayPal to effectively use Ebay. Paypal policies forbid adding on a fee to the buyer for using Paypal yest everyone does it. I had a Paypal account once. I can't even remember now what the issue was but I couldn't get them to respond. No phone number, would not answer emails? Then it took me months to cancel the account.

Perhaps I could take another look at Ebay and Paypal.

Now as to retail stores. Most aren't ripping people off. lets use your cable example. Profit margins for a retail store are a combination of products sold at different margins, but if the majority of retail outlets are selling these cables for $27.00 then they are competitive.

In a general sense I see / hear more people today openly expressing philosophies of good for me screw you, and it profoundly saddens me. If someone in your / my community is deliberately taking advantage of our neighbors I do believe we have an obligation to oppose and if possible stop these activities.

This isn't about giving people anything they haven't worked for. It's simply trying to do the right thing. Trust me on one thing even if doubt everything else. I am not a namby pamby politically correct teary eyed nut wack trying to take what you worked so hard for and giving it away to those who won't work for it!

If you have never made a mistake or been taken advantage of you haven't done anything or tried to reach out and expand your life. Without failure there is no success.

Sam

Sam,

isn't that what a REAL forum is about? Being civil in arguments? I think I passed "you're wrong - you're a fool" logic when I was around 10..

I was going the following post an edit, but since you posted already, i'll make it a reply.

I just got back from lunch with my second half; we work together. I mentioned to her our conversation as I was curious about her perspective on things. word after word, I ended up pulling the thread up so she could read your reply.
so she did, and started laughing.. Apparently, our selling logic is exactly the same (as far no overpricing, trying to keep the deal as fair as possible).. I didn't even realize that.
She did point out that I usually expect people to try and take advantage of me (bad habit I acquired growing up in ex-USSR), so I always do my research before performing the leap.

that said, I think we're completely on the same page, and I am being more of a devil's advocate rather than anything else here..

ambaker

While I think a person is free to ask whatever price they wish, for their property, I also think that if a person asks about the pricing, then it is fair for others to state their opinion.

Even the much maligned eBay allows negative feedback. Though amazingly enough there are threads there by both buyers and sellers saying eBay favors the other side.

I think there is a big difference in saying I haven't received my purchase and it has been three weeks, and calling someone a thief. Or saying that a price seems high, as opposed to saying that the seller is trying to rip someone off.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=36.790736,-90.481166

kdlanejr

DoctorIt wrote: »

Hey thanks


But, now, a very important note...


Smugmug and DGrin are not one and the same entity. Please, realize that your Smugmug account fee (the $150 you mention) has absolutely zero correlation here, especially in the Flea Market. DGrin is a free and open forum for any digital photographer.


As for your negative feedback suggestion, I appreciate your sentiment, however, the answer is absolutely not. How do I approve or substantiate negative claims? Exactly, I can't. As mentioned in our guidelines, we don't take sides, we don't research, we don't approve, we just give you a place to trade and as long as basic courtesy is followed, we let you post and discuss all you want in each others threads (not the case on all FS forums).

Seymore, great post, you've been around long enough to know exactly what I would have posted further on this matter.

Inasmuch as you can't approve or substantiate negative claims..., I submit that neither can you approve or substantiate positive claims.

Might as well not have feedback, after all.., it's all unsubstantiated, or is it?

DoctorIt

kdlanejr wrote: »

Inasmuch as you can't approve or substantiate negative claims..., I submit that neither can you approve or substantiate positive claims.

Might as well not have feedback, after all.., it's all unsubstantiated, or is it?

Welcome, and thanks for stirring the pot!

I'll answer your question with a question: who would bother taking the time to post something positive about another dgrinner if it weren't true?

angevin1

DoctorIt wrote: »

Welcome, and thanks for stirring the pot!

I'll answer your question with a question: who would bother taking the time to post something positive about another dgrinner if it weren't true?

And I'll answer that question with a Marketing adage: When someone treats you well, you tell 2 people on average. When Someone treats you bad you tell 18 people. Certainly they're both subjective, but one has a lot more room for embellishment.