Rookie here and feeling....overwhelmed
Hello everyone!
Newbie to the whole world of camera's and a recent U2 concert has my thoughts really going about wanting to start taking better pics. We had amazing location at the show and while we used our little Sony digital point-and-shoot camera, the pics really didn't do justice to what we experienced.
I think its time to upgrade to an actual digital SLR camera.
However, being a rookie, I have no idea where to start my search. Hell, I don't even know how to hold an SLR camera! I feel like a tool.
I hope ones on here can help me.
I do know its either a Canon or Nikon - will not accept any other type. Other than that........where do I start lol :dunno
Newbie to the whole world of camera's and a recent U2 concert has my thoughts really going about wanting to start taking better pics. We had amazing location at the show and while we used our little Sony digital point-and-shoot camera, the pics really didn't do justice to what we experienced.
I think its time to upgrade to an actual digital SLR camera.
However, being a rookie, I have no idea where to start my search. Hell, I don't even know how to hold an SLR camera! I feel like a tool.
I hope ones on here can help me.
I do know its either a Canon or Nikon - will not accept any other type. Other than that........where do I start lol :dunno
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Go to a camera store website, like Adorama or B&H, and see what you can afford. Then read reviews on the equipment; here is a good review site.
I recommend you begin reading all you can about DSLR's, photography in general, and specific camera models in your price range.
Go down to your local camera store and put the various makes and models in your hands. Tell the sales person what type of photography you are most interested in and ask for recommendations.
Come back here after this, let us know what has been recommended, and ask more specific questions.
Don't forget to include a budget for lenses, computer software, accessories, etc.
Sam
I was thinking around 800-900 bucks.
I am up here in Canada and was thinking of going to a store called Henry's - supposedly they are very knowledgeable.
The camera that a guy beside me had at the show and kinda caught my eye was the following:
Canon
EOS Rebel T1i
15.1 MP Digital SLR Camera
Its not just concerts I would use the camera for but also sporting events re: NHL games, football, etc. With the point-and-shoot they come out blurry like I was driving by in a car going 50 mph/h.
But, then a buddy said also make sure it has HD video capability also. My wife has been saying she wants a video camera.
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True. Talked to a guy that was counseled by security to use it sparingly. Sometimes they don't allow you in at all with one.
The Canon Digital Rebel series of cameras, which includes the T1i and several others, is their line of DSLRs that are specifically crafted for beginners and the average home and vacation shooter. They're within your budget, have loads of available lenses and other accessories, and have a decent set of features in addition to the basic Auto, Semi-Auto, and Manual modes.
Here's a tutorial on how to hold an SLR camera:
http://www.lightstalking.com/how-hold-slr
Right hand on the grip, left hand UNDER the lens with fingers and thumb holding the zoom ring.
Your first move should be directly to a book store to buy a book about photography. When you move into SLR-Land, you suddenly have a lot more control over what the camera does when you take a picture (which is what you want). Not knowing what the additional knobs and buttons does will make you feel overwhelmed; but before you know what the knobs do, you need to understand how a camera works. It's rather like someone telling you,
"Oh, that lever in the car is the gear shift."
"Great. What does it do?"
"It shifts the gears, so you can go faster or slower."
"I thought the gas pedal and brake did that? And what are the gears?"
See, you need a little basic background first. And a starter book on photography, like Digital SLR Cameras & Photography For Dummies, will give you that background.
As for equipment, I recommend starting with one of the basic Digital Rebel kits. You can select which one by looking at the cost, and by holding them in your hands in the store, but the basic kits come with the camera body, one lens (usually an 18-55mm, which zooms from wide angle, 18mm, to a medium zoom, 55mm), one battery and charger, a crappy basic strap, a USB cable to connect the camera to your computer, a manual, and a disk with some basic software on it.
In addition to the kit, you will need to separately purchase some memory cards (don't get one HUGE card, get several smaller ones so you'll have spares, and so you don't lose everything in case of a malfuction), a USB memory card reader (which is far better than connecting the camera to the computer to get your pics off), and a more comfortable strap. If you don't already have a photo editing and management software like Photoshop Elements, you might want to buy one (PSE is about $100US).
Later, once you've had a few months to get to know the basics, you might want to purchase additional lenses (for longer zoom ranges or better performance in low light), a tripod, and an external flash (the built-in flash on most DSLRs won't light anything more than 10' away).
But start with the book. You need to know what ISO, aperture, shutter speed, depth of field, and the Rule of Thirds all mean, and then you need to figure out what the P, Tv, Av, and M settings on the camera's Mode Dial do. Those are the most basic, absolute minimum skills and knowledge needed to operate an SLR camera and take fairly good pictures with it.
You're about to enter a world of excitement, creativity & wonder, frustration & dissapointment, and ecstatic triumph. You're about to become a photographer. Congratulations!
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Beware: DSLRs are not video cameras. If you want to do basic home video, camcorders are much better. Most DSLRs (including the T1i) do not AF during video. Even if a DSLR can AF during video, it makes the video look unnatural. You'll get much better results out of a camcorder. DSLRs are better for manual focus video.
Now, that T1i is a good starter camera. A couple of cons, though: the newer models like the T2i, T3i, etc. will have better ISO performance. I'm not familiar with the T1i's ISO performance, but sensor technology moves forward, and the sensors get better at ISO performance. Also: if you want to do sports, the Rebel series does not have very fast AF. This doesn't matter if you're in the upper deck just trying to get some shots of the players, but if you're down with them and have to track them as they move (think youth sports, or the sidelines of an NFL game) then the Rebels aren't going to do very well. The Rebels' AI Servo mode is just not as capable, as, say, the 50D's. The 60D is better, but its price doesn't leave you much cash for lenses. Read the-digital-picture.com review of the T1i, 50D (link above), etc. Their reviews have good info for people looking to purchase a camera. And they're easy to understand.
I agree with WillCAD about reading a photography book. Knowing how to use the ISO, aperture, shutter speed, and different modes will get you better photos.
I disagree that you should get a kit. That 18-55 lens will get you nowhere at a concert or at a sporting event. The slow AF is not good for sports, and the aperture (f/3.5-5.6) is not going to be good for concerts. Remember, the lower the f/number, the better in low light. That's why I recommend the 85mm f/1.8 or 100mm f/2. They do well in low light, and they focus fast (good for sports). They can be had for $300 used. They're almost identical, except the 100mm gets you a little longer focal length while letting a a tiny bit less light (f/1.8 vs f/2). Add one of those to a $500-$600 camera, and you've got an excellent setup.
Edit: just for reference,
60D has video, 50D doesn't;
T1i has video, but the video in the T2i and T3i is better. I would recommend just getting an HD camcorder for home movies.
I kick myself I didn't investigate this stuff earlier in my life - I am 34 and just now taking an interest in better pics, after 11 U2 concerts under my belt with nothing more than a Samsung 35mm or a Sony Cybershot.
Whether its music though or sports, I wanna be able to catch the action, not just blur. I am anal when it comes to seating or location so always wanna be close to what is happening re: against the glass at a hockey game or field level at a ball game.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=11413
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Then I would not get a Rebel. The AF tracking is simply not fast enough for most fast action. Certainly not an NHL game or the like. Recommendations: 60D if you can swing it, 50D if you can't, 40D if you want to save some money. Oh, or a 30D if you want an excuse to buy a 1200mm 5.6
Notice, in the thread Ziggy posted, Andy is using an 85 1.8. $600 for a 50D, $300 for an 85 1.8... sounds like a nice setup to me
The purpose of this post is to get you to thinking and being able to quantify what level of equipment and skill is required, how your budget lines up, and your willingness to learn how to use it.
Some times it's far better to wait and save than to dive in with equipment that can't meet your expectations.
You might try to connect with a local camera club and find someone who is doing the kind of photography you plan on doing.
Sam
To successfully do the things you want to do with the quality you seem to want, you will need to spend more than $800 and learn a lot more about the basics of "driving a camera".
The long answer:
You will probably, like most, start small and work your way up. In the first instance, either of the Big Guys' (ie Canon or Nikon) entry or prosumer dSLRs will probably do very nicely; if you find you want to do more with your gear, you can gradually trade your way up. Lenses, in particular, hold their value pretty well so if you choose wisely, you can work your way up from entry-level to professional-quality gear without actually getting hosed every time.
Terms you need to learn about to successfully shoot in the difficult lighting conditions of concerts: ISO (particularly high ISO), "fast glass", how apertures work (eg, smaller number=more light and vice versa), and the "reciprocal of focal length" rule for handholding shutter speeds (it's much easier than that makes it sound!)
My guess at this point is that you would do well with either a new or used T*i entry-level Rebel, or even something like a used xsi (don't bother with the XS). With a couple of fast prime lenses (eg 50 1.4 or 1.8; 85 1.8), you will be able to get some very decent photographs in a concert setting once you learn how to set the camera to do what you need it to do - automatic is NOT a good solution in tough lighting conditions! Buying quality used gear (from reputable sources - for the time being avoid ebay since there ARE a lot of camera scams on there, and you have to know what you're looking for and what questions to ask to navigate around the charlatans) will give you more money to put towards lenses, which may help keep you closer to your stated budget.
Hope that helps get you started - you'll find folks here at dgrin very helpful as well as knowledgeable.... and we all remember that "have to start somewhere" feeling!!
It's like buying a $25 tripod, realizing you need more stability but not liking the $300 pricetag of the top-of-the-line 'pod, so instead you buy a $100 one. Well, this one is better than the first, but you still know that you'd really benefit from the $300 one... and so you go and buy it. Now you've spent $425 just to finally get to the place you originally needed to be.
(Not saying you need a tripod, that was just an example.)
I think any of the x0D bodies with an 85 1.8 would do fine. That's right in your budget. Add a hundred or two for accessories, and you're set. If you play your cards really well, memory, straps, and the like are cheap.
Also, the most expensive camera in the world can take horrible pics if you don't know how to use it. Learn the basics; it's not as hard as it sounds, especially if you've got a camera in your hands to learn first-hand.
As for buying "big" initially or working up to higher-end gear... All I can say is... my experience with the latter has been great, and suited me and my needs/budget. Especially if you simply don't HAVE the $ to pony up for the expensive stuff. Sure, if you do, then great - but if you need to make compromises, that can be one way of doing it. I've purchased refurbs, gently-used, and other good deals, have sold lenses/gear I no longer use or need, and have lost surprisingly little in my journey from XT plus old film lenses, to a 7d with a lot of professional quality glass in the bag. It's not a breakeven proposition of course, but if you're smart about it you can do it with a surprisingly small loss. Best is that at each stage of my development I could have the gear I needed as my skills and needs grew.
The things lacking on the Rebels is mostly to do with handling and advanced features that aren't necessarily required when you first move up from a point and shoot (and sometimes beyond). My xsi took a lot of VERY high quality images for me - the only reasons I felt I needed to "move on" were because i wanted the thumb dial (which I'd had on my film Canon slr, and missed) and faster AF the xxD and then 7d could offer. But the xsi was NOT lacking in most areas.
OP, it's all up to how you want to handle this: if you have the money to buy "the very best", then great. If you can't pony up the big bucks initially, then get the best you can for your purposes within the budget you have now, BUT be aware you may find yourself trading up in due course. Both approaches can work well.
The catch to that is an awful lot of folks that decide to try a DSLR never end up using it seriously. Sometimes they underestimate the size of the camera and end up not willing to haul it around. Often they are disappointed that the DSLR doesn't automatically give better pictures than a good P&S... there's at least some effort required to get better pictures.
I always encourage folks to consider whether they are really going to stick with it. If they aren't sure, save yourself some money and go entry level. I really hate to see $2K+ of equipment just gathering dust because it turns out "it wasn't their thing".
If you know you are going to stick with it, then I agree with your point 100%.
Jay
Q: I want to become a car racer. Should I buy myself a $500,000 Chevy stock car, or a $700,000 Ford stock car?
A: Neither. Buy yourself a $50,000 car and $10,000 worth of high-speed driving lessons FIRST. Learn how to drive a high-performance car. Once you're comfortable in the seat, step up your car and your racing incrementally till you're on the Nascar circuit.
Likewise, for someone like the OP, I never recommend a double-digit series Canon as a first SLR. It's too much camera for a beginner; it will simply overwhelm someone who is neither familiar with the basic operation of an SLR nor the basics of exposure and composition, and will wind up sitting in the bag most of the time. I can't imagine more of a waste than that.
A better way to go is to begin with a beginner's SLR. Enter the SLR realm with an entry-level SLR - that's what they're made for. The modularity of an SLR system will allow a beginner to gradually step up his lenses and accessories, and eventually step up to a better body, as his ability to utilize that equipment develops.
Photographers often make fun of those who know nothing about photography but walk out of a camera shop with $10,000 worth of gear thinking that it will buy them good pictures. They never get a single good picture out of it because they keep it in the Green Box Mode the whole time and never bother to learn ANYTHING about exposure or composition, and wind up selling it all a short time later at a tremendous monetary loss. And we get a chuckle.
So why is it that whenever a newbie comes onto the boards asking for advice about his first SLR purchase, there are always so many folks recommending mid-level or even pro-level equipment to him?
Harper77, my recommendation stands - you are a beginner, therefore you need a beginner's SLR. Go to your local electronics store (do you have Best Buy in Canada?) and get yourself an entry-level Canon or Nikon SLR kit. Then go to your local book store (or go online) and buy Digital SLR Cameras & Photography For Dummies. And READ IT. You'll be shooting pics with that new camera immediately, learning how to use it as you progress through the book, and won't be completely overwhelmed by the knobs and buttons on the camera.
Learn the basics first. Then you can gradually step your equipment up as your knowledge and skill outstrips what you have.
Many at Dgrin have taken their first beginner steps with beginner gear. Others have invested a lot in gear that they have grown into and that has grown them. Others still have done a bit of both.
Your priority comes through loud and clear as wanting decent shots of things you are interested in and which you can keep and show proudly as satisfying records of the great experiences you have.
You can get all that without too much financial commitment, but definitely not without a personal commitment to get technique down. Basically it's you that will be taking those crash hot shots, not the gear.
It's going to be up to you, I suggest, to do some self-evaluation before you part with your dough. You don't, I assume, go to the equivalent of U2 concerts every few days, or top league sports events. They are more likely high point experiences which are spaced apart by lengthy "normal" periods over a year's duration. Sure when you are in the excitement of the moment of a special experience you want to have gear that can capture it all. Thing is successfully doing that in photography means a day-by-day learning and practice discipline during those long normal periods. Fact of life. Does that sound like you? If not, you can continue to do what you can with your p&s and forget about it all in the meanwhiles until the next time. You'll have your mementos, though they might not be equal to or sellable to media!
Fun is fun, and work is work. You describe the fun infectiously, but I know you have to get infected with the necessary discipline to work with serious gear to get the extra fun that you imagine that gear would bring.
Asking about what gear to buy will get you recommendations for nearly everything you probably can already find, handle, get info about in a good large camera store. Do that, and then research online the cameras that interest you of those you have seen. Assess which of those seem to meet your purpose, and then come back to us with a shortlist to help you finetune your choice.
You will get a great response, and you will have had a chance to test your resolve in the meanwhile.
Neil
PS There are always some good deals in the Fleamarket here you could discuss with us if something takes your fancy.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
How is an xxD camera "too much camera" for a beginner? It has better AF, more fps, more comfortable handling... are those features going to discourage a beginner from shooting with it? How will it overwhelm a beginner? If a beginner were to be overwhelmed, I think it would probably be due to their camera not being able to perform like they want it to, not their camera having more features! xxD cameras are easier to use than Rebels anyway. The only reason Canon makes Rebels is that they're cheap. Beginners like that. That's really the only advantage of a Rebel, and the only reason beginners get them. Well, Canon markets them well, that may have something to do with it
OP: Neil is right, you do have to make sure you're committed. It's not that hard once you start reading, and using your camera in M mode. I've found that the "work" Neil talks about is fun, at least for me. There's a certain satisfaction in getting a good photo. And it can be done any day, not just at big events. Portraits of friends, nature close-ups in your backyard, etc.
There is a 40D currently in the flea market.
ie a 40D + whatever lens > maybe even the 85/1.8.
A 40D is still capable of producing decent results and they're fairly inexpensive (certainly within the budget quoted) and - it has separate controls for 2 of the prime functions, unlike xxxD series Canon gear - it can obviously be turned to full auto too
You'd probably not lose much when selling it, either - if bought at reasonable price.
If you want to splash out, spend on good lenses ... bodies come and go ... glass lasts much much longer (unless you drop it ! )
Sam's advice re finding a local club is also good - apart from talking 'shop' with like minded people and having a chance to play with different bits/makes of gear, there may well be someone who's just about to upgrade and wants to sell their old gear - I'm sure they'd be only too willing / happy to show you examples of pics taken with same ... even if you didn't ask
pp
I didn't know there was a 40D for sale when I wrote the above, btw - just written from personal experience / use of one.
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You are very correct Neil - not one of those groupies that follows the band from city to city. However, if that paid money I would!
But its true - a concert maybe every couple of yrs. A few hockey games in the winter time. Other than that, your basic type of life. I guess I just am looking to possibly get into making the pics I take better quality and something that really jumps off the screen.
My little Cyber-shot camera is a great little item - suits the purpose. But many times when at a wedding or even during a fall hike I have felt my pics could be better.
In speaking to my wife about getting a digital SLR, I mentioned that getting one would sort-of be an investment - something we will always use.
I have thought, as mentioned before on previous post by someone, maybe I should look at getting something used first - get the feel, etc. before blowing a ton on something that will collect dust. Not sure I am a fan of buying used electronics however - got burned a few times on the old "works for a month then stops".
I do think that the 85mm f/1.8 would be the most useful lens for you.
I stopped reading after that bit, if your not prepared to look at the superb lower budget options from Sony / Olympus / Pentax etc etc then your going to spend a lot of money on a name. . . .
Jee's - I feel like a 'sheep' herder sometimes
.DAVID.
Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints
Didn't mean to offend its just a personal preference.
http://www.photoprice.ca/
This will help you out for your needs when looking for any peice of equipment.
Brady
Getting back to GLASS - which ultimately, is going to be a concern for what you want to shoot:
- kit lenses. These are definitely an option and the lenses themselves are fine starter lenses, but don't always measure up in tough concert lighting (see additional comments below); you'd almost certainly need to pony up for some fast primes to shoot with as well.
- fast primes. These lenses have one focal length BUT they can allow a lot more light to hit the sensor, thus being very useful in these kinds of lighting situations. Popular affordable choices include the "thrifty fifty" 50mm f1.8 (~$100 new), the 50mm f1.4 (more responsive and accurate AF, but ~$400 new/300 used), the 85 f1.8 or f100 2.0 (sister-lenses - they're the same construction and similar prices @ ~$300 used/450 new, it just depends whether you want the extra tickle of light, or a little bit of length. They're both excellent)
- consumer zooms - despite what i said about kit lenses, you could consider starting with the 55-250is. This is a surprisingly capable lens for the money (some call it the "thrifty 250" and it is optically as sharp as the 50 1.8). I had one and really liked it until it became apparent I needed a lens with wider apertures for the shooting I do. But for about $200-250, it's not a bad place to start for a longer focal length. It's available as one of the kit lenses with a new camera.
- fast pro glass. Fantastic image quality, build and handling, but you pay accordingly!! Any of these lenses ALONE would exceed your stated budget (and then some!). The 70-200L 2.8 with, or without, image stabilisation; the 24-70L 2.8; 135L 2.8; 200L 2.8. And so on. But these are big bucks!
So, possible combinations (and you can probably find similar in Nikon if you find you prefer their handling/layout etc):
- One of the Ti Rebels or a used 40d + 18-55 kit lens for general shooting (ETA: or 28-135, which might be even better here, despite the lack of true wide angle), and the 50 1.8 (or 1.4) for low light. That would bring you in just about on budget, I believe.
- One of the Ti Rebels or a used 40d + 18-55 kit lens, 55-250 kit lens, 50 1.8 (or 1.4), 85 1.8 (or 100 2.0). This setup will probably run you 50% (or more) above what you intended to spend, although going for a used will shave some $ off the total.
All IMPO, but the handling of the prosumer models ISN'T necessarily more comfortable when you first move up from a PnS, and when you're more often shooting in automatic modes. The handling improvements BECOME a big deal when you start wanting more control, but at the beginning when you're looking for the camera to "help" you more, the Rebels actually in many ways make that easier, since there aren't as many settings buried in the menus that you have to learn and figure out. Even once I was shooting more seriously and wanted to upgrade from my XT, I CHOSE an xsi over a 40d, because it felt better to me. Sure, faster AF and the like are great but the more powerful a machine, often the more skill it takes to bring out its best (eg the 7d - it's a difficult camera for a beginner to use because it has SO many customizable features that it's just complicated if you don't know what you want and why!)
Obviously, this is all personal preference but, OP, that IS a huge part of choosing a dSLR. Find the one that FEELS good in your hand, where the controls feel almost automatically under your fingers; this is why the very different button layouts/menu systems of Nikon and Canon both have devoted followers!
ETA: One option nobody has yet suggested: could one of the G-series cameras suit the OP? ISO performance is decent, it would be a step towards a dSLR, but would attract much less attention from security at events, cost a bit less, and perhaps be a good "stepping stone" towards a full rig. Just a thought.
I wish I could take credit for it but sadly no - found it on the internet.