Portrait photogs - HELP! Advice needed.
kds1
Registered Users Posts: 242 Major grins
Hi all,
I have been asked by an ex co-worker to take pregnancy photos of her and hubs in a few weeks. I tried to discourage her, I really did. I am NOT a portrait photog, which I pointed out to her. I do NOT have studio (home or otherwise). But her original photog that she lined up has disappeared and is not returning her calls, and we are both poor, starving teachers and she can't afford the big bucks to hire someone else. I was friends with her the year we worked together, invited to her baby shower (which I didn't go and didn't send a gift as I was way busy and have felt guilty about that). So when she called and said her photog seems to have ditched her, would I do some preg photos for them, I tried to dissuade her but she is out of other options and would really like me to do it. Sigh. OK.
So I told her that I would do it (and waive the sitting fee as a baby/shower gift) and told her that after I take the shots it would take me a few weeks to load them to my smugmug site and then they could buy whichever prints she likes in whichever sizes she likes.
And then she asked me if they could pay me to make a CD of their favorite shots. Hmmmm. I have no idea how to approach this. The few portraits I have done, I have not activated the 'buy download' option on smug. I guess my feeling is that part of the deal is that I make money from people when they purchase the prints from me - if I make and sell people a cd of their fave shots, they can (and will) print out any number they want, anywhere they want and I will make just the fee I charge for the CD (which I have no idea how to price that). And I guess I was thinking of the digital download option on images as the same thing. Why would ppl buy prints from me/smug if they can just buy one digital download and then print out 50 3x5s (for example) from it and send them to all their family?
Portrait photogs - help! How do you handle a request to make clients a CD of their fave images? Or is it simpler/easier to have them use the digital download purchase? How does either of them make sense for you financially since in both cases (CD or digital download) they would not then be purchasing the prints from you? (as in, I think they want them to make a number of prints and send to family at the holidays). :scratch
And how do you figure out how to price a CD when you have no clue if they will then print out 1 of each image or 100 of each image? If they purchased the images as prints from the site, each print they purchased would have a price and you would make a profit from each print they purchased. So when you do CDs or digital downloads, do you just let go of that notion that you will make a profit from each print???? And they just go print out 50 prints from CVS or wherever???
:dunno
Advice much appreciated!
Kara
I have been asked by an ex co-worker to take pregnancy photos of her and hubs in a few weeks. I tried to discourage her, I really did. I am NOT a portrait photog, which I pointed out to her. I do NOT have studio (home or otherwise). But her original photog that she lined up has disappeared and is not returning her calls, and we are both poor, starving teachers and she can't afford the big bucks to hire someone else. I was friends with her the year we worked together, invited to her baby shower (which I didn't go and didn't send a gift as I was way busy and have felt guilty about that). So when she called and said her photog seems to have ditched her, would I do some preg photos for them, I tried to dissuade her but she is out of other options and would really like me to do it. Sigh. OK.
So I told her that I would do it (and waive the sitting fee as a baby/shower gift) and told her that after I take the shots it would take me a few weeks to load them to my smugmug site and then they could buy whichever prints she likes in whichever sizes she likes.
And then she asked me if they could pay me to make a CD of their favorite shots. Hmmmm. I have no idea how to approach this. The few portraits I have done, I have not activated the 'buy download' option on smug. I guess my feeling is that part of the deal is that I make money from people when they purchase the prints from me - if I make and sell people a cd of their fave shots, they can (and will) print out any number they want, anywhere they want and I will make just the fee I charge for the CD (which I have no idea how to price that). And I guess I was thinking of the digital download option on images as the same thing. Why would ppl buy prints from me/smug if they can just buy one digital download and then print out 50 3x5s (for example) from it and send them to all their family?
Portrait photogs - help! How do you handle a request to make clients a CD of their fave images? Or is it simpler/easier to have them use the digital download purchase? How does either of them make sense for you financially since in both cases (CD or digital download) they would not then be purchasing the prints from you? (as in, I think they want them to make a number of prints and send to family at the holidays). :scratch
And how do you figure out how to price a CD when you have no clue if they will then print out 1 of each image or 100 of each image? If they purchased the images as prints from the site, each print they purchased would have a price and you would make a profit from each print they purchased. So when you do CDs or digital downloads, do you just let go of that notion that you will make a profit from each print???? And they just go print out 50 prints from CVS or wherever???
:dunno
Advice much appreciated!
Kara
Kara Stewart
about.me/karastewart
about.me/karastewart
0
Comments
1. If she asked for a CD, then make her a CD.
2. Yes. Let go of whether they'll print 2 or twenty photos.
3. Most folks buy a CD because they want to view them on their computer and send them to family.
You can always include your copyright notice in the EXIF data if you do not want to give them permission to print outside their home.
4. Go easy on poor starving teachers!:D
Thanks, Angevin. I am a poor, starving teacher too! (and single parent with 2 kids in college and trying desperately to make a few extra bucks on the side with my prints on smug and zazzle). And I'm already giving up a huge amount of time to do the shots, then edit the shots for them. All of that for free. So I was hoping to make just a little bit of money on the prints! What would you normally charge for a CD?
about.me/karastewart
Yes. I read that: You were both poor and starving teachers.
When I did that right-regular, I'd sell a CD for $120, about your sitting fee price. It might have twelve or twenty-some photos, all depending on what I liked.
It's OK to vent etc. here but I would counsel be careful about expressing this to your clients.
Now as to the shoot: If the client wants a CD of the images I get them a CD of the images. If they want the images in B&W I get them images in B&W. If they want to buy my camera I will sell them my camera. Although I will point out they could buy a brand new one for far less than I would be willing to sell mine for.
You get the idea........I will try unless there is some overwhelming reason to provide what the client wants.
In today's world most clients want the image file to both print and send as emails to friends and family.
It's getting to be pretty normal to make a CD of high res images for printing and duplicate set sized for email.
Think of it this way the only person who has any interest in these images are your client. You have no other revenue stream for these.
Why would you care if they print a hundred? Just because they print a hundred at $1.99 ea doesn't mean they would have purchased a hundred from you at $20.00 ea. Your clients can also buy one print
and scan that print. License the images for personal non commercial use and be done with it.
What you need to look at is what does the client want? Can you produce this? Now all you need to do is figure out what you will charge the client. If they think this is reasonable and or within their budget they will hire you, if not they will pass.
Sam
Who cares if they make one print or 20, forget about all the impractical internet forum forum and licenceing rubbish people go on with as if everything is a job for a major commercial job and be happy to make a decent return for your time.
If I know a client wants a disk I don't worry about numbers of images or how many prints they might make ( which is maybe 2 on a good day but more likley none) and just work out what I want to get out of the job as a whole.
If I think that's say $300, then the cost is my costs plus the profit I want and that's it.
You might want to work out how many hours of your time it's wrth and price accordingly but I think the number of images is irellevant although if youare one of those shooters that has to retouch the hell out of everything before you think it's fit to be seen then you will want to cover that as well.... if that leaves a practical price point that isn't over the top.
In the end, I agree with what Sam says about it being in their budget. People quote all sorts of lofty figures for their time on forums which like I said often leads to priceing that is impractical. When it's all said and done you can do the job for what the client will pay/can afford be that fitting to your hourly rate or 5% of it but you have to decide if you want that money or you want nothing.
When budget is a key factor, I ask the people what their price point is and if it is at all realistic I then quote ABOVE that because they will always give you the lowball not the absoloute figure. Again, Time, number of images and the prints they may make from them become irrelevant. It's simply a matter of if you are prepared to do what they want for that money or do you prefer to pass and make nothing at all and/or work on another job instead where you feel the returns will be better.
Sweet Caroline - thank you, that is very helpful. I would of course price lower since I am not experienced as a portrait photog. So maybe in the $80 - $100 range. And it would take me, I figure, about 30 hours all in all. Yep, Glort, I am one of those who retouches the hell out of everything. If an image is not as good as it can be, I won't put it on there.
about.me/karastewart
I am stunned!!! I read and reread my post as well as Glort's, and I don't see anything harsh??? I thought I answered your question about people wanting CD's of their images and your concerns along with my reasoning. I just don't read where I thought you should have know it.
If you think this was harsh.......wait until I am in a grumpy mood.
Sam
Or maybe I am being overly sensitive?
about.me/karastewart
I didn't think they were being harsh, but, I've been in your situation before, and felt that way too.
One more thing, please tell me that you really did not mean 30 (THIRTY) hours. Please say you meant 3 (three)?
Thanks, Kixx. And yep, I meant THIRTY. Like I said, I'm NOT a portrait photog! Drive half hour to park, take shots for say an hour or hour and half, drive half hour home, then spend the next huge number of hours weeding through and perfecting the photos that yep, I'm not good enough to get right SOOC.
An example: (and it's been so long since I've posted on dgrin that I'm not even sure I'm doing links right): Family I did last summer They were sitting in between 2 buildings outside at an art museum. So to clean up the background, fix the lighting (again, not a portrait photog so I don't have ANY off camera lights and don't use my on camera flash), and then 'clean up' the people - the grandmother very sensitive about wrinkles, wanted me to try to make her look really good (lots of skin on arms as well as face), some with the father and girls http://www.kdstewart.net/PeoplePetsFood-Homes/People/7600714_hz7drd#876670898_D3jBG I messed around with forever trying to even out skin tones (his very red, theirs not but taken together color looked unbalanced etc.) so ended up converting to bw, etc. etc.
Again, I am not used to doing people and it makes me very nervous. Dogs are great and my usual subjects (nature, homesteads, food), don't move around as much and don't complain about the way they look so much.
And all of that is WHY I'm not a portrait photog and don't really want to be bc I don't know how!
about.me/karastewart
I think the customers like it better cause it is just one upfront cost...not some now and an unknown amount of $ later.
Jarboe Doggart Photography - jarboedoggart.com
I think my all time favorite is when some young lady has been heavy on the tanning creams, tanning beds and so forth and then she stands next to snow-white and the gal looks orange!
Just reading this thread, and I think you've received some pretty good advice. And no, I don't think anyone has been harsh here. The waters here at Dgrin are very calm indeed.
There are two things that stick out for me.
First is the time it is taking you to do 75 photos. Half an hour a photo is more than you should ever expect to do (and make any money at it). So your goal should be to reduce your PP time to a few minutes each, with a small few getting extra attention. Tom is right. Maybe we can help with improving the quality of the photo in camera so you're not spending so much time during PP. There are also many techniques that can help speed up your PP time. Ask and we can help!
Second, are you spending too much time retouching and improving reality? (i.e. Grandma's wrinkles). If I'm the kid that cuts your lawn for $5, I'm not going to hand pick the clover and pull weeds from the flower bed!
Just my 2 cents,
www.digismile.ca
Disclaimer: I am not being harsh.............just voicing my opinion.
You can't spend that kind of time processing images and make money. There is no and ifs or buts.
Here is an example of a soot I did awhile ago. This was taken with one speedlight off camera using an umbrella.
Image #1 is without any processing.
#1
Image #2 is the finished image. Very little processing.
#2
Not all will be this easy but you / I can't spend the amount of time your spending in post. It would seem to me that buying a speedlight or two versus 30 or 40 hours of post would be something to seriously consider.
Sam
In your situation $100. sounds about right. Give her all the good images, processed...at least 20.
Your processing time is VERY long but not your customers fault so you can't really charge them for it.
Keep working on your processing. The hardest place to reach is to know that with portraits everything does not have to be perfect. Over processing is worse than underprocessing.
Remember your customer does not have the before and after images side by side to compare....they can't tell the difference.
Still those of us who have transitioned through the stage of development you are at, we sometimes for get how long it used to take us to process a portrait.....I remember those 45 minute a shot days. Now if it takes me more than five minutes I don't even mess with the shot.
Talk to your customer, tell her what you are thinking...see if she thinks it is reasonable...reach a middle ground and wrap it up.
Best of luck to you.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
http://500px.com/Shockey
alloutdoor.smugmug.com
http://aoboudoirboise.smugmug.com/
Tom, you are so right about not having lights and using natural light and then the vastly different skin tones on people make it pretty impossible to do overall color balance adjustments.
I'm not hopeless at SOOC work and not spending a ton of time on post processing with other types of shots - pets I do a lot of with natural light and it goes just fine - not a ton of pp, but some. Food, nature shots, etc. not hopeless at SOOC pretty good shots, but adult portrait photography is just not something I am used to and am good at SOOC work. And yes, I'm also not used to my subjects continually fretting about the way they look, saying their chins are too saggy, can I change their shirt (in the software!!!), can I get rid of some wrinkles, etc., etc. Not used to dealing with adults who aren't pleased with the way they look and what they want to look like in a portrait! So Brad, yes - I am spending too much time retouching reality at customer's requests and not sure how to respond! (yet another reason I don't like portrait photography!).
Then again, I'm sure if I had time to spend taking more shots and using my camera more altogether, I'd have a lot more SOOC shots that are fine as is in all genres!
At any rate, thanks for the advice and suggestions, everyone. Much appreciate.. And thanks for being understanding about this - and about my over sensitivity.
Kara
www.kdstewart.net
about.me/karastewart
I really don't get a lot of what you are saying or asking.
You go on repeatedly about not being or wanting to be a portrait photographer but looking at your site, you seem to have done a decent number of portraits.
If they cause you so much consternation and you don't want to do it and don't enjoy it, then the bleeding obvious to me is don't! .... especially with the amount of time you are spending retouching which frankly is plain ridicilous. You would want to be able to do a complete wedding album faster than that let alone a portrait shoot.
Now having read the posts of the retouching and supposedly quality obsessed before, I know you will never change what you do in this regard which to me only makes shooting portraits at all a very strange thing to start with.
Your original question pertained ( in part at least) to pricing and requesting advice thereon.
The answer is there is no answer given the inordinate an unsustainable time you are spending on the shoots UNLESS you can pull a weeks expenses out of each shoot your doing which i'm guessing your not being a starving teacher.
I have no idea what you get paid as a starving teacher ( teachers here do damn well actually) but I'm also guessing that your hourly rate as a teacher is a lot higher than your hourly rate as a photographer given teh hours your putting in. Again i'm wondering if your compaining about the renumeration in your day job, why in hell your taking on an even lower paying part time job that you say you don't want to do and don't enjoy? I'm also guessing that if I offerd you a couple of Dollars an hour more than your making on these shoots to work for me, you'd tell me to shove it so why do it for less?
If you don't want to do these jobs, the word to use is "NO". Like I said, if I asked you to work for me for more than what I'm guessing your getting now you'd have no problem with the word so there can't be a problem with it for others can there?
To me, you need to be asking yourself a lot of questions that go well beyond what you should do for this job because I can't see where anyone can give you any meaningful advise atm for a number of reasons.
I think the only person that can help you atm is yourself and you have some serious questions to ponder well beyond this single job.
No apologies made for any hard truths and reality which may be construed as "harsh".
Well, my goodness. You must have missed the part where I said I do these people portrait things only as special favors to people I know and that I don't do many of them at all. Out of all the people shots in my people gallery, TWO are paid shoots. The rest are mostly family and some friends - all just off the cuff shooting, non-paid, just for fun stuff. Which I don't mind at all and enjoy.
There ARE other kinds of photography besides portrait photography, you realize, and I do those OTHER kinds. And love it. And am just fine with it.
As you pointed out, my original question was about CDs and pricing. So my original question had nothing to do with whether or not I like portrait photog or whether or not I should do more (I don't intend to) or whether or not I need to do some serious thinking about whatever you think I need to do some serious thinking about.
I love teaching and teachers get paid peanuts here in the US just in response to you statement about that. I love photography and like many people who do, there is an area of photography that I am NOT conversant in. I'd imagine you have that also.
The upshot - I got my question about pricing answered. And I'm fine, thanks ever so much for the concern about my mental well being.
about.me/karastewart
about.me/karastewart
No worries.
I'll be sure not to make the same mistake in trying to help again.
Thus, the advantage of being an experienced, professional photographer, and not just someone with a camera.
You must mean an experienced, professional PORTRAIT photographer.
about.me/karastewart
Second - If your trying to sell yourself being a photographer take down everything on your site that's not paid for. If that means taking down 90%, so be it. If I was considering hiring you I would not want to see your candid family photos. Make a "hobby" gallery that's all about something you like, that's cool. That gives clients an idea of what your about in personal life.
Third - Read this asap. http://shouldiworkforfree.com/
Forth - There might be a really good reason the last "photaug" took off and is under a rock. Not many "photaugs" I know run away from potential work.
Fifth - Glort if your still reading this go easy on me.
Sixth - I forgot who got the answer right up in the comments, but take the one base fee and give them what they want. You get money they get the product move on.
Seventh - If it wasen't for teachers I wouldn't be able to count this high.
And for the last point, teachers get paid too much. They are being replaced by computers at a rapid rate and they think they can survive longer by demanding more money....
last last point, I think teachers are great and would not choose computers over them, just stop trying to more and more and more money.
If you don't agree with me then your wrong.
I can't be held accountable for what I say, I'm bipolar.
I'm pretty sure i'm despised far more than loved but thanks for the laugh!
If so , then it's from pure ignorance. Pretty much all of your posts are contributory. Some folks don't like them because they don't want to entertain any other ideas. And they often take offense due to that. These valuable insights perhaps different from our own are the only reason I come to dgrin to read. Every Aussie I've ever met are very strongly opinionated. Sometimes it is funny, sometimes not, but it beats being a Sheep.
If you do not want to take people portraits, DO NOT have them on your website and do not mention that you take them on the site. Potential clients are going to assume that you do that kind of work BECAUSE they see examples and you talk about it doing it.
You are also taking far too much time on post processing, at this rate you are paying people for taking their pictures and you are saying that you don't even enjoy it. Why are you doing this? You aren't making money after figuring wear and tear on your equipment AND your time spent.
You do have some lovely art pieces on your site which actually makes the people pictures look a little out of place, they are not at the same level.
www.fastcatstudio.com
www.fastcatstudio.net - blog
If you don't agree with me then your wrong.
I can't be held accountable for what I say, I'm bipolar.
Thanks for the compliment on my art photography. I do appreciate that. I can only assume you didn't read my first few posts - I did these few people portraits as FAVORS only for friends when asked, pressed, pressed harder if they were stuck. I was being nice, trying to help friends out. That is all. I don't seek out portrait work at all. I really wish I never wrote this entire thread.
about.me/karastewart
Perhaps some now wish they never botherd trying to help but regardless, I think the thread does provide valuable insights to others on a number of different levels.
It's clear that although you are reading the responses, you are comprehending or heeding the valuable advise people are offering either on purpose or for reason of ignorance.
It is completely and utterly irelevant why you shot the images, the relevant part is they are on your site and would make a reasonable person naturally assume they are a style of work you are offering or trying to attract.
As said, if you don't want it, don't show it. At all.
Unless your friends are holding a gun to your head there is no reason you cannot say no especially if portraits are something you dislike so much and take up so much of your time. You could also cut down on processing time by allowing your friends to select their faviourite shots they want to print or use and only processing those images instead of every image taken.
If you feel that you cannot do this because the images are so sub par without hours of retouching, then that to a reasonable person would only again highlight significant reasons not to take the images in the first place.
I also think you are displaying a rather concieted attitude with your responses. It would see to me that you are very intolerant of anything you dont want to hear and are probably looking more for praise than genuine advise.
In any case, if you do not wish to participate in the thread any longer you can stop replying at any time but like I said, I think the progression of the thread and the comments and advice from all sides could be very useful to others if one is open to taking heed and learning from what has been said.