Night Football - I am NOT freezing action w/ flash

MDalby

Night football is kicking my !@#$!@%$#.

I haven't liked ANY of my work. Here are some of the changes I have made lately.

• When I shoot with the 70-200 VR II I don't feel like I am getting close enough so...
• I started using a Kenko 1.4 Pro 300 TC.
• I started using flash, manual 1/2 power. (I suspect this is one of my problems.)

EXIF Data
All shots were:
SS: 1/250
I shot at f/2.8 but with the TC it is an effective f/ 4.0
ISO 2500
Effective Focal Length: 280

I guess I am still not overpowering my ambient to freeze the action. I have to stop down some more to lower the ambient and also lower my flash power to have shorter burst? I shot my strobe at 1/2 power manual (I am kicking myself for not using 1/4 or even lower). I basically wasted a game of shots. I know there are a lot of different opinions on to whither to use strobes or not. I would like to exhaust strobe and do it right and then determine if I like it or not but so far I have not had the proper technique. Yes, I am aware of the shadows in the background in some of these shots. Maybe, the reduced flash power would also help in that regard.

Any help from strobists is appreciated.

Shot #1



Shot #2



Shot #3



Shot #4

MDalby

Here are some shots without strobe for comparison. These shots were earlier in the game when it wasn't as dark.

EXIF Data
All shots were:
SS: 1/800
I shot at f/2.8 but with the TC it is an effective f/ 4.0
ISO 3200

System

I wish I could get the shots you got without flash. Here is what I get without flash: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ksean17/.

I would guess that your main problem is shutter speed. 1/250 is much too slow to stop action. I try not to go slower than 1/500 but ideally I want 1/1000 or faster. That isn't going to happen at the stadiums I shoot at.

kdlanejr

I limit myself to 1/400th minimum for football, sans flash, and turn up the iso as high as necessary. In better lit stadiums, iso 3200 is the norm. In darker stadiums, iso 6400. You definitely need less flash power. The only thing you want the flash to do is brighten up the inside of the helmets. If you're going to use manual flash settings, start at 1/16th power and raise or lower power as necessary to achieve the look you want.



iso 6400, 1/400, f/2.8



iso 8000, 1/640th, f/2.8

Kikoprice

We are talking about flash right? I think you have too much ambient and are seeing ghosting. Drop the ISO and ditch the teleconverter {slows the focus down} and zoom with your feet instead.

Let the flash figure out the correct amount of power with the TTL setting { I have Canon so I'm guessing on the Nikon name}. These guys are running all over the place how are you going to switch the power up or down while trying to get the shot and not get run over? I think this is why some of your flash shots are on the hot side, not bad just a little hot.

Dont go over 1/250 or whatever your high speed sync is, you need the recycle speed.

I shot 2 games Friday night one was a cave, the other was ok. I think the key is getting the ambient exposure correct, too bad it changes all over the field.... Ive only been experimenting with the flash football for a very short time, so take my suggestions as another photog trying to figure it out.

Frank

MDalby

Thanks guys,

1/250 is the max SS that I can use with strobes. I think the best place to start is with the dog gone ambient. I have to get my ambient right and then shoot at least a couple stops below ambient so the flash freezes it.

I REALLY want to use my TC. I just want to get closer shots and I can't afford a 300mm lens.

I am going to try to find a night game here that I can practice at before my next key game.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

MD

jonh68

The D700 is a great camera for no flash photography, and the 70-200 is great if you can stay within 10 yds of the line of scrimmage either behind or in front. If you shoot in manual mode, use HS sync for flash to fill in shadows like you would daytime portrait work. The only time I use flash though is in the endzone.

MDalby

jonh68 wrote: »

The D700 is a great camera for no flash photography, and the 70-200 is great if you can stay within 10 yds of the line of scrimmage either behind or in front. If you shoot in manual mode, use HS sync for flash to fill in shadows like you would daytime portrait work. The only time I use flash though is in the endzone.

John,

Would you be happy with those non-flash shots that I posted? There are shadows, the noise is pretty evident. I am not happy with those. What changes can I make to have the non-flash more acceptable? Are the non-flash quality being impacted by the 1.4 TC? I always stay within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. I still feel that I am not getting close enough shots without the TC.

Any other 70-200 VR users out there that are also using a TC? What have been your results? Are you happy with the TC?

Any recommendations on how I can change my non-flash shots are appreciated.

jonh68

MDalby wrote: »

John,

Would you be happy with those non-flash shots that I posted? There are shadows, the noise is pretty evident. I am not happy with those. What changes can I make to have the non-flash more acceptable? Are the non-flash quality being impacted by the 1.4 TC? I always stay within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. I still feel that I am not getting close enough shots without the TC.

Any other 70-200 VR users out there that are also using a TC? What have been your results? Are you happy with the TC?

Any recommendations on how I can change my non-flash shots are appreciated.

Yes I would be happy with those pictures and I would also crop tighter on them. Shooting night football is what it is: very difficult. You can spend money on a D3s, 300 2.8 and have the best pictures possible and still make less than $100 a game on sales because there is a parent on the sideline giving away pics for free.

So, yes I will take non flashed and noise over no noise and flat flashed lighting that doesn't look natural to the way it looked on the field.

These were shot with a D700/70-200 at ISO 6400. I got low to the ground to shoot up which improves getting faces. The stadium isn't the best lit but it is decent.

1


2


3


Here are shots taken with a D3s/Sigma 120-300
4


5


6

jonh68

Also, I am shooting jpg and not even at the highest quality setting. I'm shooting FINE/NORM. Some people swear when shooting at lower settings it improves noise performance as less pixels are used or something like that. I don't know if it makes a difference. I'm not shooting in lesser quality because of that, just I can't tell a difference using higher quality settings and I like smaller image sizes.

nipprdog

MDalby wrote: »

I REALLY want to use my TC.

Shoot half of the game without the TC, and compare the image quality. Using the Kenko at f4 doesn't provide optimal results. Also, shooting at 2.8 or 3.2 will allow you to drop your ISO a little.

johng

OK, lets discuss a few things.
First, I disagree with the advice that you should use high ISO and only flash to "get light under helmets". There are 2 problems with that advice:
1) shooting at those shutter speeds requires high speed sync which dramatically reduces the flash output / range.
2) 1/400 will still show motion blur.

Second, the idea of needing to use wide apertures. Flash freezes motion when the camera's exposure values are below ambient. You start to get a good freeze effect about 2 stops below ambient - get near 3 and it's frozen pretty good (although not completely). So, if the "proper" ambient exposure is f2.8, 1/500 and ISO 6400, let's do some math:

Shutter speed drops to 1/250 (1 stop gain)
ISO drops to 800 (2 stop loss - we're now at -1 exposure)
You can drop aperture to f4 (and you're only now at the -2 exposure mark or f5.6 -3 exposure mark).

mercphoto

johng wrote: »

1) shooting at those shutter speeds requires high speed sync which dramatically reduces the flash output / range.

Lets not forget that the way in which HSS works actually makes it impossible to freeze action anyway. So even if there wasn't a problem with recycle rates and flash range it would not do what we're trying to do -- generate a very bright, quick, SINGLE burst of light to freeze action.

jonh68

mercphoto wrote: »

Lets not forget that the way in which HSS works actually makes it impossible to freeze action anyway. So even if there wasn't a problem with recycle rates and flash range it would not do what we're trying to do -- generate a very bright, quick, SINGLE burst of light to freeze action.

Yes, but your ss is what is freezing action, not the flash. The ISO performance of the D700 gives you enough ability to up the ss and gives you the option to use HSS for football.

These were taken in the endzone, HSS . On this field in the endzone, shadows are pretty bad as the players are for the most part backlit. I used the flash to fill in a bit.





This is not a great picture, but all I wanted was just a touch of light.

johng

Jon - I would argue that the loss of detail for noise reduction isn't worth it. Look how plasticky the people are in those images vs. the images with flash as the main source of light. Not to mention the amount of light in the helmet. Look at your first photo and compare that face to the face of the African American player in my photo. I just think high ISO / HSS combines the worst aspects of both approaches.

jonh68

johng wrote: »

Jon - I would argue that the loss of detail for noise reduction isn't worth it. Look how plasticky the people are in those images vs. the images with flash as the main source of light. Not to mention the amount of light in the helmet. Look at your first photo and compare that face to the face of the African American player in my photo. I just think high ISO / HSS combines the worst aspects of both approaches.

I guess we are going to disagree. I don't like the look of flash nor the shadows it produces behind the players because it looks unnatural to me.

mercphoto

Yes, but your ss is what is freezing action, not the flash

I disagree and here's why. I need to find an image I took way back in 2005/2006 to illustrate. If your exposure is set to 2 or 3 stops below ambient, then a flash, when not in HSS mode, can and will freeze action. Its the disco strobe effect. The flash is such a bright and fast burst of light, and its providing the bulk of the light, and it will artificially shorten the shutter. I have pictures of night motocross that illustrate this. Shots at 1/250 shutter with the flash providing the vast majority of light, not in HSS mode, and wheels and spokes are frozen. That would NOT happen in daylight at 1/250 shutter speeds. Even at 1/640 some wheel blur would have been noticeable. Take this example to an extreme with a nearly pitch black environment, a shutter of 2 or 3 seconds, and a flash firing on a moving subject. Guess what happens?

JBHotShots

mercphoto wrote: »

I disagree and here's why. I need to find an image I took way back in 2005/2006 to illustrate. If your exposure is set to 2 or 3 stops below ambient, then a flash, when not in HSS mode, can and will freeze action. Its the disco strobe effect. The flash is such a bright and fast burst of light, and its providing the bulk of the light, and it will artificially shorten the shutter. I have pictures of night motocross that illustrate this. Shots at 1/250 shutter with the flash providing the vast majority of light, not in HSS mode, and wheels and spokes are frozen. That would NOT happen in daylight at 1/250 shutter speeds. Even at 1/640 some wheel blur would have been noticeable. Take this example to an extreme with a nearly pitch black environment, a shutter of 2 or 3 seconds, and a flash firing on a moving subject. Guess what happens?

I can shoot at 1/200 during that last couple hours of light and get tons of wheel blur and a pretty good pan if need be. Shooting at 1/200 with a flash at night and it completely freezes everything.

jonh68

mercphoto wrote: »

I disagree and here's why. I need to find an image I took way back in 2005/2006 to illustrate. If your exposure is set to 2 or 3 stops below ambient, then a flash, when not in HSS mode, can and will freeze action. Its the disco strobe effect. The flash is such a bright and fast burst of light, and its providing the bulk of the light, and it will artificially shorten the shutter. I have pictures of night motocross that illustrate this. Shots at 1/250 shutter with the flash providing the vast majority of light, not in HSS mode, and wheels and spokes are frozen. That would NOT happen in daylight at 1/250 shutter speeds. Even at 1/640 some wheel blur would have been noticeable. Take this example to an extreme with a nearly pitch black environment, a shutter of 2 or 3 seconds, and a flash firing on a moving subject. Guess what happens?

I am not disagreeing flash will freeze action. I was disagreeing with your comment HSS makes it impossible to freeze action. It doesn't as my examples show. I wasn't trying to use the strobe to freeze action as I had high enough ss. I just wanted some fill light for the shadows like you would when shooting during the day. I used SS to freeze action, not the strobe. We are saying the same thing. I agree HSS doesn't freeze action, but I disagree it is impossible to get a shot that freezes action while using HSS.

I have used flash to freeze the wings of a hummingbird at 1/200 and 1/250 while in shadows. I have also used HSS at 1/1600 to use as fill in when in daylight to give some fill light.

mercphoto

jonh68 wrote: »

I am not disagreeing flash will freeze action. I was disagreeing with your comment HSS makes it impossible to freeze action.

Brain fart on my part. I think we'd both agree, however, if you can't get a fast shutter then using HSS doesn't help you any. In other words, for night football like we have here, better to use 1/250 and normal flash, than try to use 1/320 and HSS.

jonh68

mercphoto wrote: »

Brain fart on my part. I think we'd both agree, however, if you can't get a fast shutter then using HSS doesn't help you any. In other words, for night football like we have here, better to use 1/250 and normal flash, than try to use 1/320 and HSS.

The OP was getting 1/800 at ISO 3200 though, at least early on. If shadow reduction is needed, a little flash could fill in at those settings. For my tastes, I don't use flash unless I am shooting from the endzone where the players are more backlit. Even then, I rarely use flash.

MDalby

OK... I tried quite a few different configurations on this last shoot. With the TC, without the TC, with flash, without flash...

I decided that I just could not freeze the action with the flash. I am just not smart enough. I went to without flash and without the TC for the majority of the game.

I put together a slideshow of some of the shots from the game.

MD

jonh68

Don't like the slideshow presentation as it paused too many times, but I like the pics better than your flashed ones from the last game. My only big critique is it looks like you shot while standing up. If your knees bother you then you can't help that. Otherwise, your pictures look much stronger when shooting athletes and even cheerleaders/band members when getting low to the ground.

MDalby

John,

Yes, I have bad knees. Not really an option for me. During basketball when I shoot I use a little camping chair that gets me to a lower profile.

MDalby

By the way, the video slideshow pausing may be a function of your Wifi connection or speed. It doesn't pause for me.

Jeffro

The SS didn't pause for me either. Pics seem ok to me too. HS football is not going to have NFL lighting, so I wouldn't ever expect the same quality.

Do you guys ever get complaints about the flash from either the players or coaches? I'd never even consider using on camera flash during a sporting event, as I'd hate to cause a distraction.

MDalby

Jeffro,

For basketball I don't use on camera flash. I have lightstands. I have never once had a complaint from parents or players. But then again, I am only shooting 1/4 power.

For football, I again have never had a complaint, except from the photographer when he gets home and looks at the results.

Jeffro

MDalby wrote: »

Jeffro,

For basketball I don't use on camera flash. I have lightstands. I have never once had a complaint from parents or players. But then again, I am only shooting 1/4 power.

For football, I again have never had a complaint, except from the photographer when he gets home and looks at the results.

:giggle I've always thought it would be a distraction, but maybe it's not.

MDalby

First of all I want to thank Kevin Williams from Rock Canyon Photos for spending some personal time with me and educating me. He gave me some great tips. I took another shot at flash last night and I felt like I struggled all night. I just didn't get too many shots to speak of. I don't spray and pray when I shoot but I do normally shoot in 2-3 frame bursts. With strobe I couldn't do that and I may have to relearn how to shoot a game and have better anticipation of the right time to shoot.

First of all, the game was a tough one. We lost 34-3 to a very good team. This is our first senior class at a new high school and we are just getting our program started. I don't know why but I struggled getting good shots all night. There just weren't any breakaway runs or any good offensive/defensive highlights such as key tackles, RB cuts around the end, DL pressure, OL etc to speak of to really get much of a story in shots. We just got beat up badly. I still should have been able to find some shots but it was tough.

Here are some of the changes that I made last night in settings and approach.

- Set my ambient light to just about nill. 800 ISO, f5
- Ditched the TC resulting in faster AF
- Went with rear sync (2nd curtain for you Canon guys)
- Went with TTL for the first half of the game. I felt like my flash reach wasn't as good as I was hoping and tried my flash set at manual for a bit in the 2nd half to see if that would extend at all.)
- I played with the flash strength throughout the game and settled in at full strength. I was hoping that with 2 flash units I could cut the power and get twice as many shots but I didn't seem to get any more shots. I think my recycle time was better with lower power and 2 units vs. one.



So, here are a few shots. I will post some of the better ones and some that have some issues too for you to see any pros/cons of flash.

#1



#2



#3



#4



#5



#6 (in Q4, we put in our 14 year old backup QB, this shot is pretty representative of our game last night, running for our life)



#7 (Again, we were always a step too slow or grabbing thin air in our tackles)

MDalby

One of the things I was pretty pleased with was the lack of shadows in the face from the helmet/face mask. The DGrin design for monopod/flash worked very good in that respect.

Here are some shots of my monopod setup. It is a little different than the typical DGrin solution.

MileHighAko

Mark, your setup looks really cool, and sitting on the opposite sideline from you last night it looked like you were getting the action at the right times. Your shots above look pretty good. But like you said, the game itself wasn't all that interesting. Both teams tended to run up the middle most of the time, limiting opportunity for good action.

All in all though, looks like you were successful.