What are my rights?

LRussoPhoto

I was at an event over the weekend shooting a race. This race was in a public par and there was no fee for spectating. Shot there all day as well I left business card. I received an email asking me to remove my photos because the promoter had an exclucivity agreement with anothe photog. Being that this race was in a public place do I have to remove the photos?

Cygnus Studios

There are quite a few grey areas when it comes to events and who did what and why they did it. If this event was on public property and no limit on who could or could not go to the event, and there was nothing that stood out that a photographer was on hand to get "official" photos, the grey area can be very wide.

There is another consideration. You are stepping on the toes of another photographer. Knowingly or unknowingly at the time. You do know it now. Whether you are in the right or wrong, at this point in time you need to think about the toes that you are stepping on.

Maybe the event people didn't do things in an upfront manner and you were unaware of the official photographer. Maybe your images are better than the official photographer and they are unhappy with the competition.

From your general description it sounds as if you are perfectly able to take and sell images, and if you are happy doing so, do it. If this is going to potentially come back to bite you in the butt, remove the images and move onto to something else.

Sam

Basically I don't think there is enough info to make a realistic determination.

What kind of event? Where was it held? Indoor, outdoor, public streets, Details??

If for example it was a foot race on public streets, and you were on a public street, there isn't anything the organization or the contracted photographer can do to prevent you from taking photos and selling them.

Sam

LRussoPhoto

Sam wrote: »

Basically I don't think there is enough info to make a realistic determination.

What kind of event? Where was it held? Indoor, outdoor, public streets, Details??

If for example it was a foot race on public streets, and you were on a public street, there isn't anything the organization or the contracted photographer can do to prevent you from taking photos and selling them.

Sam

The event was in a public park, outdoor, running. Did not go on public streets, all in the park. I can't think of any more details. What else would u need to know?

ian408

If you search the forums, there are plenty of discussions on the topic.

The short answer is the event organizers probably have a contract with the city for the area the event was held. This contract gives them certain rights including the ability to "rent" public property (which makes the venue non-public for the duration) which also allows them to contract with a photographer for exclusivity. I don't know all the details but this is my guess but if that's the case, they will ask you to take those pictures down. All depends on what their deal is for the venue.

God luck.

cbbr

If th event in question is the Spartan Race, they rented the park, paid for insurance and set up/clean up and absolutely had a contract with the city. That is a for profit race series. They also have contracted photographers.

johng

Lou - I'm a bit dismayed that you have removed the contents of your post. I wish you'd reconsider. If you stepped in a mess, simply own up to it and learn from it. It might be a bit embarrassing but so what? We all learn from our mistakes. And, your post, and the responses, could help others learn as well.

LRussoPhoto

John, you are right. I don't think I stepped in a mess I am just very frustrated having wasted time and money traveling to this event. There are a few different opinions so I still don't know who is right? As u said live and learn.

angevin1

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

John, you are right. I don't think I stepped in a mess I am just very frustrated having wasted time and money traveling to this event. There are a few different opinions so I still don't know who is right? As u said live and learn.

Unfortunately, sometimes you cannot figure out who is in the right until a judge tells ya!

But I'll take a reasonable bet the city/county would be willing to Share the contract rights with you if you showed up and asked. ie: Show or tell ya what the event organizers rights were as far as the city/county is concerned.

I'd venture it is as you say, a public space. I'd also venture if the organizers entered a contract with the city/county to 'rent' that space, then it becomes the organizers space. and even though they had no posted signs, it is like Cygnus Studio advised: Now, you know. which means (Sell) at your own risk. SUck!

cbbr

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

John, you are right. I don't think I stepped in a mess I am just very frustrated having wasted time and money traveling to this event. There are a few different opinions so I still don't know who is right? As u said live and learn.

You might contact the race organizer, get the name/number of the official photog and see if they would be willing to split the sale of your stuff. Like being a second shooter. You would have a more targeted audience which may offset the split.

johng

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

John, you are right. I don't think I stepped in a mess I am just very frustrated having wasted time and money traveling to this event. There are a few different opinions so I still don't know who is right? As u said live and learn.

So, here's my question: you want to run a photography business. I believe in other threads, it's been discussed that the best way to go about things is to talk to the coordinators (or athletic directors - whoever is "in charge"). Why didn't you contact the coordinator before shooting/trying to sell?

angevin1

cbbr wrote: »

You might contact the race organizer, get the name/number of the official photog and see if they would be willing to split the sale of your stuff. Like being a second shooter. You would have a more targeted audience which may offset the split.

Angelo

Lou: If I were in your shoes I would respond to the original email with this:

"Thank you for contacting me and advising me of your contractual agreement with another photography firm covering your event. Please advise what, if any, exclusivity agreements you hold with the (name the municipality) that preclude a citizen from taking photos of a public event. Thank you."

Be interesting to know their response. It's non-threatening. I think they'll weigh on the side of you having passed out business cards as infringing on their proprietary rights. Had you not done that I'd weigh in on the side of - you have every right to photograph anything AND sell art prints.

.

LRussoPhoto

Angelo, that sounds like a good idea. Any other thoughts on this?

johng

Angelo wrote: »

... Please advise what, if any, exclusivity agreements you hold with the (name the municipality) that preclude a citizen from taking photos of a public event. Thank you."

Angelo, do not confuse an event that is 'open to the public' with a 'public event'. I think you're confusing 2 concepts. The notion that anyone can take photos from public property and do what they want with the photos no longer holds true when the property is not public.

All of which is slightly beyond the point if the OP wants to run a business: sports shooting is a pretty small community. If you want to alienate people that run sporting events you want to cover, you're not going to be very successful. Do a google on Pyrrhic Victory. Fighting the coordinator on this is likely to be an example of that. It would be different if it were just the official photographer that sent the email. But it wasn't. It was the coordinator. Asking the coordinator to prove that they can ask you to remove the photos isn't going to win the OP future opportunities. He'll have the official photographer AND the coordinator ticked at him

Then there's the matter of ethics. The OP now knows there is a contracted photographer. He might not have known that before, but he knows now. He also knows the photographer does have an exclusive agreement with the coordinator. Again, it's a small world - the OPs name will be mud with any sports shooter the official photographer knows if the OP chooses not to respect the agreement.

Again, it's one thing to contact the official photog and see if something can be worked out amicably. But, fighting the coordinator is a bad idea.

LRussoPhoto

John, just to comment on your response, how am I supposed to compete with a established photography company that may send multiple shooters to an event? I understand that it is a small community but it seems almost impossible for the little guy trying to make some extra money on the side to get into that community. Now I know that the law is the law, but I feel if that big photog companies photos are good, they have nothing to worry about. As you know I am fairly new to this so my response is not directed to you in a negative way, but if you have any answers id love to hear.

Angelo

johng wrote: »

Angelo, do not confuse an event that is 'open to the public' with a 'public event'. I think you're confusing 2 concepts. The notion that anyone can take photos from public property and do what they want with the photos no longer holds true when the property is not public.

All of which is slightly beyond the point if the OP wants to run a business: sports shooting is a pretty small community. If you want to alienate people that run sporting events you want to cover, you're not going to be very successful. Do a google on Pyrrhic Victory. Fighting the coordinator on this is likely to be an example of that. It would be different if it were just the official photographer that sent the email. But it wasn't. It was the coordinator. Asking the coordinator to prove that they can ask you to remove the photos isn't going to win the OP future opportunities. He'll have the official photographer AND the coordinator ticked at him

Then there's the matter of ethics. The OP now knows there is a contracted photographer. He might not have known that before, but he knows now. He also knows the photographer does have an exclusive agreement with the coordinator. Again, it's a small world - the OPs name will be mud with any sports shooter the official photographer knows if the OP chooses not to respect the agreement.

Again, it's one thing to contact the official photog and see if something can be worked out amicably. But, fighting the coordinator is a bad idea.

John

I'm not confusing anything. I merely suggested what Lou might do and what I definitely would do - open dialogue with the other party; not just accept their demand to cease at face value.

.

angevin1

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

.................how am I supposed to compete with a established photography company that may send multiple shooters to an event?

Actually Chad (cbbr) and Angelo both recommended opening a dialogue. Your answer may very well come from those sources much, much easier and certainly more accurately.

John Patrick

cbbr wrote: »

You might contact the race organizer, get the name/number of the official photog and see if they would be willing to split the sale of your stuff. Like being a second shooter. You would have a more targeted audience which may offset the split.

Terrible idea. I know that if I was the contracted photographer and you brought that to me, there's no chance of it happening.

A real professional photographer doesn't just show up at an event, shoot, and hope to sell. A real professional photographer works with the event organizers months ahead of time, securing the right to shoot the event.

Showing up and hoping to sell used to be valid, but given the market climate of photography today, is no longer viable. Do it right and be the official photographer, or don't do it at all.

You asked how the little guy can compete with large multi-shooter professional companies, and the answer is simple: Start small, but start correctly. Find the small events that don't have a photographer, become the official photographer, and work your way up. That's most likely how 95% of the multi-shooter companies started. I know, because I started shooting by myself, and now I have events with 6 photographers and a booth staff of 4.

John

cbbr

I didn't suggest that it was a good way to get started or a good thing to do on purpose.

But since there is obviously a problem already that need some resolution, I am suggesting that there may be a better way than fighting or selling until the fight is forced. Maybe calling and offering a solution is better than fighting. The OP really has nothing to lose if he is going to stop selling to avoid potential litigation.

I am also suggesting that a "real professional" might see it as a way to make a few $$ and let the little guy who acknowledges that he made a mistake, but still has a decent product and a time investment out of a corner.

Lesson learned, everyone makes a $$ and no litigation. I was always taught to pick your battles. Both sides.

Of course the race needs to learn a lesson and post a sign or something to stop this from becoming a habitual thing, but that's another discussion.

johng

If you want to compete with a business you have to act LIKE A BUSINESS. Trying to poach sales - and let's stop dancing around it, that's exactly what you're trying to do - is NOT the way to do it. The truth is this - what you WANT to shoot, and what you can compete at shooting with are not always the same thing. If you continue with this current line of trying to poach because you "cant compete with the big guys", you're quickly going to do yourself much more harm than good. Now, how you proceed depends on your goals. If your goal is simply to shoot sports in general, you have a lot of options: shooting sports not covered by the "big guys with multiple shooters". But the process is still the same - you don't just show up, take photos and hope to sell. You contact the organizers ahead of time. Start the dialogue BEFORE you shoot. Not after. Now, if your goal is simply to shoot this one type of sport, you have have to shoot smaller events or events further away where there isn't a contracted photographer. And how do you know if there is one? By contacting the organizer BEFORE you shoot.

And, of course, the other option is: if there's an outfit that is shooting these events you might want to approach THEM and see if there's an opportunity to work as a shooter for them. You'll find that working as a paid shooter can often be more profitable than trying to sell your own stuff on smugmug - and you don't have to worry about all the post processing. BUT, your work better be good out of camera. So, make sure your results are on par with what that outfit is producing when you contact them. That's not going to help with this last event - but the last event is the small picture. You need to focus on the larger picture. In any event, I disagree with the idea of arguing with the promoter and trying to convince them they don't have the right to ask you to take the photos down. No good can come from that.

Sam

johng wrote: »

If you want to compete with a business you have to act LIKE A BUSINESS. Trying to poach sales - and let's stop dancing around it, that's exactly what you're trying to do - is NOT the way to do it. The truth is this - what you WANT to shoot, and what you can compete at shooting with are not always the same thing. If you continue with this current line of trying to poach because you "cant compete with the big guys", you're quickly going to do yourself much more harm than good. Now, how you proceed depends on your goals. If your goal is simply to shoot sports in general, you have a lot of options: shooting sports not covered by the "big guys with multiple shooters". But the process is still the same - you don't just show up, take photos and hope to sell. You contact the organizers ahead of time. Start the dialogue BEFORE you shoot. Not after. Now, if your goal is simply to shoot this one type of sport, you have have to shoot smaller events or events further away where there isn't a contracted photographer. And how do you know if there is one? By contacting the organizer BEFORE you shoot.

And, of course, the other option is: if there's an outfit that is shooting these events you might want to approach THEM and see if there's an opportunity to work as a shooter for them. You'll find that working as a paid shooter can often be more profitable than trying to sell your own stuff on smugmug - and you don't have to worry about all the post processing. BUT, your work better be good out of camera. So, make sure your results are on par with what that outfit is producing when you contact them. That's not going to help with this last event - but the last event is the small picture. You need to focus on the larger picture. In any event, I disagree with the idea of arguing with the promoter and trying to convince them they don't have the right to ask you to take the photos down. No good can come from that.

While I think (hard to know for sure without more details), the OP can legally can sell the images already taken. An exclusivity agreement between two parties does not effect a third party.

But, I agree with johng as posted above. Start with small events not covered by the large photo companies. Also contact sports photo companies and get put on their list of approved photographers. You will probably make more money than trying to, as johng calls it, poaching.

You can poach, and you can fight, but I believe the best long term course is to tread softly, ( you don't have to prostrate yourself or anything, and learn the culture of the sports shooting industry.

Sam

idiotabroad

When I think of sports the first thing that comes to mind is soccer shoots. 1000 cameras on the sidelines following the ball and when it gets close to a play all you hear is the defening sound of shutters. I know they are there covering for a sports outlet, but talk about the competition.

say NO to poaching. animals or photos all the same.

orljustin

Sam wrote: »

While I think (hard to know for sure without more details), the OP can legally can sell the images already taken. An exclusivity agreement between two parties does not effect a third party.

Exactly. Also, since you can take and sell "art prints" of almost anything you like, I don't see why this 'event" would be any different.

johng

orljustin wrote: »

Exactly. Also, since you can take and sell "art prints" of almost anything you like, I don't see why this 'event" would be any different.

Something that has been alluded to but not discussed is this: within the context of sports shooting, there are only certain restrictions - MLB, NBA, NFL uniforms and likenesses are copyrighted. You cannot sell a photo of Tom Brady taken during an NFL game. Just getting that out of the way. In other instances, you can not be prevented from selling the image once taken. What CAN happen though, is an organization that leases public property can implement restrictions. They can implement a restriction that no one within the confines of the leased space is allowed to use an interchangeable lens camera except the official photographer. Whether or not an event implements such a restriction depends on their financial interests and also in whether or not photographers are having a negative affect on the other fan base.

As to the OPs situation - it again is a matter of: yes, the OP may legally be able to sell the photos he took. BUT, the bigger picture is: pushing the issue can lead to all sorts of negatives:
1) The event could implement camera restrictions
2) The OP would definitely be viewed in a very negative / unethical light by the professional outfits that do sports shooting - at least this one outfit, but also any outfit that person is in contact with. So, fast forward a year when the OP wants to work as a contracted shooter. That option may no longer be there because he is viewed as unethical.
3) The event itself will be closed to the OP as far as an opportunity in the future. If the outfit doing it this year can't do it next, it's not likely the OP would have a shot at the contract. Why? Because, people like to have ethical business partners. If you demonstrate you don't have enough ethics to respect the exclusive sales agreement in place, you're probably willing to bend/break other ethical guidelines. Businesses don't want to deal with that.

This is why I say fighting the organization may be a short term win but long term loss. So what if the OP makes $100 on his smugmug sales? He'll end up losing a lot more by going that route. Sports shooting success is more about relationships than it is photography. If you don't understand that, you'l always be the guy struggling to make $50 in sales for a day's worth of work.

jonh68

orljustin wrote: »

Exactly. Also, since you can take and sell "art prints" of almost anything you like, I don't see why this 'event" would be any different.

Lets say OP is defiant and offers his pictures for sale because he has a "right" to sell them. He has effectively made himself one of those photographers that will be difficult to work with and not respectful of other photographers.

When you are in business for yourself, word of mouth is important to clients AS WELL AS PEERS. I have gotten work from peers who were already booked. I have refereed work to peers when I was booked. Am I going to give work to someone who comes in and poaches? No. I am also going to let other photogs know. Local sports photographers in my area have networked on facebook. A photog who poaches will be talked about.

If you want to break in, find friends who have kids that play little league, HS and shoot their kids. Tag them on facebook with watermarked/small rez pics and you get more exposure. You have to build a reputation. If you are good, respectful, and professional, people will give you good word of mouth. Fighting this is the easiest way to get a bad reputation.

Dan7312

Just to be the devils advocate.


It sounds like the organization that ran this event at an public park made no effort to tell the OP or any other 'tog that there was already an official photographer at the event who had exclusive right to make images there. Had the OP known this he may have moved on to something else. As is, he wasted an day. Is it ethical for an organization to setup a honeypot for 'togs? Doesn't the organization that put the event in a public park have an obligation to let people know what the restrictions on attendeing it are? Why would anyone think that an event at at an public park would have restrictions like this?

johng wrote: »

As to the OPs situation - it again is a matter of: yes, the OP may legally be able to sell the photos he took. BUT, the bigger picture is: pushing the issue can lead to all sorts of negatives:
1) The event could implement camera restrictions
2) The OP would definitely be viewed in a very negative / unethical light by the professional outfits that do sports shooting - at least this one outfit, but also any outfit that person is in contact with. So, fast forward a year when the OP wants to work as a contracted shooter. That option may no longer be there because he is viewed as unethical.
3) The event itself will be closed to the OP as far as an opportunity in the future. If the outfit doing it this year can't do it next, it's not likely the OP would have a shot at the contract. Why? Because, people like to have ethical business partners. If you demonstrate you don't have enough ethics to respect the exclusive sales agreement in place, you're probably willing to bend/break other ethical guidelines. Businesses don't want to deal with that.

This is why I say fighting the organization may be a short term win but long term loss. So what if the OP makes $100 on his smugmug sales? He'll end up losing a lot more by going that route. Sports shooting success is more about relationships than it is photography. If you don't understand that, you'l always be the guy struggling to make $50 in sales for a day's worth of work.

johng

Dan - playing devil's advocate can be fun. But, you're trying to turn this into a right/wrong issue. I'm trying to give a dose of reality. The OP is going to lose far more in the long run than the event organizer will. It also comes down to personal responsibility. One of two things happened here - we don't know which because the OP hasn't answered my question. Either it is as you say, the OP didn't know there was such an agreement. In which case, the OP is still at fault for not contacting the organization in the first place. Or, the OP did, in fact, know there was another outfit shooting as the official photographer and chose to do this anyway. Again, if you want to be a business, you have to act like a business. If the OP would have done the responsible thing in the first place - contact the organization - they wouldn't have wasted the day. If you want to be successful you need to work WITH people, not try to work around them.

For the sake of the discussion, let's assume you're right - the organization should post flyers everywhere stating they have an official photographer. OK. They didn't. If the OP suggests that, do you honestly think they're going to say "gosh, you're right - we were wrong to ask you to take the photos down"? You have to pick your battles. This isn't a battle the OP is going to win. Learn from the mistake and move on. Right now he just wasted a day. Better that than ruining his reputation before he's even made one.

johng

Dan7312 wrote: »

Why would anyone think that an event at at an public park would have restrictions like this?

Anyone who is a professional sports photographer would think there may be an official shooter and would find out first. That's the difference between being a professional and being a hobbyist trying to make $20. The OP didn't because they're by their own admission, new. They learned a good lesson. Time to move on from it.

LRussoPhoto

For the record I did not know there was going to be an official photographer at the event.

LRussoPhoto

johng wrote: »

Anyone who is a professional sports photographer would think there may be an official shooter and would find out first. That's the difference between being a professional and being a hobbyist trying to make $20. The OP didn't because they're by their own admission, new. They learned a good lesson. Time to move on from it.

I have shot a few events like this before as well as many atv race events......if I was going there hoping to make $20 I wouldnt even waste my time.