lighting a large group

Andy · October 20, 2005

this came to me by private message - it's something that many will benefit from so i'm starting a thread.

anon wrote:

I hope you don’t mind I want to pick your brain about something. A while back, if I remember correctly, you got a couple of 580EX and used those as your studio set up. I think, I honestly can’t remember. Any ways I was debating on getting one or two more to go with the one I have so I can do team head shots, and team shots. Its hockey the light sucks indoors so I am trying to figure out how to get more light (and also would use them for other stuff as I want to start working on doing portrait stuff too). Do you think 3 580 EX would be enough to light a hockey team (about 24 girls, so I think it would probably be maybe 15 feet across, I sort of eyeballed it at practice.)

And I desperately want to learn more about lighting, do you know any good resources (websites, book, what ever).

I really appreciate the help because I realize you are probably way busy. So thanks in advance.

yep - 3 580s will be fine - i betcha even 1 580 and 2 420s will do the trick - that's the setup i use for stuff like this. i just went through two seminars on lighting today at photoplus expo in nyc - one on technical aspects and one on dramatic portrait lighting. they were "ok" and run by some great photogs. but nothing beats a good basic book, and some hard practice by you.

books:

beginner's

intermediate

Andy · October 20, 2005

so how about some advice from others?

pathfinder · October 20, 2005

In my VERY limited experience, if I were to shoot a LARGE group like a hockey team, I really prefer a pair of good studio monolights or electronic flashes if 110volts is available. They will be much more powerful than a 2 or even, 3 580s and cost substantially less. I have shot choirs at church both ways. A pair of studio flashes won't cost much more than one 580EX. For the price of thre 580s, you can get a pair of Alien Bees and a wireless trigger .

The church where I shot the choir, has canister lights directly overhead the choir and casts dark black circles beneath their eyes. Portable 580s were not enough, but a pair of studio flashes was much better. Umbrellas will help the studio lights a lot also.
One other thing to realize about larger studio flashes, once you have the lighting set up, the exposure does not change. You can shoot away in manual and concentrate on looking through the viewfinder.

You will also need a long PC cord or a wireless flash trigger to connect the studio lights to your camera.

Andy · October 20, 2005

this was with only one 580ex - was a spur of the moment thing - if i had planned it, would have used two add'l 420s and gotten some more light in the rear.

Bodley · October 23, 2005

andy wrote:

yep - 3 580s will be fine -

I'm also looking into a similar situation. I have been shooting sports "outdoors". I'm getting request to shoot indoor sports such as basketball, wrestling and gymnastics. Along with these request are opportunities for some T&I shoots. These T&I's will be indoors. I have the following equipment:

Canon 1dmkII - 550ex - 580ex (w/ lightsphere II) - Canon lenses 50mm/1.8, 85mm/1.8 (Andy hand-me-down via Windoze) 28-135mm/3.5-5.6 IS, 70-200mm/2.8 IS, 200mm/1.8, TC1.4xII

Sounds like I need another 580ex. Do I also need stands & PocketWizards?

Can the 580's be used with an umbrella or box or should I get more LSII's or just shoot bare?

Thanks for any help
Greg

Shay Stephens · October 23, 2005

With large group shots, more lights are not always better. Depending on how many people in the shot, multiple lights can cast shadows on the people behind or to the side of other people. So for large group shots I like to use butterfly lighting from a single light and a small softbox.

I use a Sunpak 555 (you can use any light that is bright enough) on a 10' light stand, and a Chimera (again you can use anything here) 16x22" softbox. The light goes up high enough to make the shadow of people in front drop low enough to not hit the faces of people in the back.

It's not as interesting as the kind of dramatic lighting you can get when doing just one person, but at least is does no harm with shadows that multiple lights from the side can cause.

Here is a recent example of what I am describing:

With that setup, the light was providing nearly all the illumination for the scene as the church lights were very dim.

And here is nearly the same setup (one light) but I am using it here as a "kicker" or an accent light to help give the light a little directionality on a gray rainy day. I was not relying on it to illuminate the scene.

The problem I have with AC powered studio lights is the need for cords and a need for power. Outlets are not always within reach or working. And cords on location are death for tripping hazards. And lights love to come crashing down when the cord it is connected to starts to travel in a certain direction connected to a certain shoe.

Along that same vein, wireless triggering is the way to go. I prefer pocketwizards, but anything but a sync cord will do. On location = no cords for me.

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

I use a Sunpak 555 (you can use any light that is bright enough) on a 10' light stand, and a Chimera (again you can use anything here) 16x22" softbox. The light goes up high enough to make the shadow of people in front drop low enough to not hit the faces of people in the back.

Would the 580ex (138' @50mm) have enough power for an effective box? How much effective range do you loose with a box?

Shay Stephens wrote:

Along that same vein, wireless triggering is the way to go. I prefer pocketwizards, but anything but a sync cord will do. On location = no cords for me.

Are there enough reasons to justify the PW Multimax over the PW Plus series. Will the Multimax trigger a Plus series receiver?

Shay Stephens · October 23, 2005

Bodley wrote:

Would the 580ex (138' @50mm) have enough power for an effective box? How much effective range do you loose with a box?

Softboxes are not about range. If you need range, shoot bare flash. A softbox is all about modifying the light to soften the shadow transition (hardness), and so the closer they are the softer the shadow. You adjust the distance to tailor the hardness and contrast. I can probably get the softbox about 10 to 20 feet from the subjects on the outside if I am doing a large group.

Are there enough reasons to justify the PW Multimax over the PW Plus series. Will the Multimax trigger a Plus series receiver?

I am using the pocketwizard plus right now, and while they are wonderfully effective, for next years season, I am going to switch to Multimax units for the additional flexibility and control they offer.

The Multimax will trigger the Plus units, but only on the classic channels. No fancy stuff. If you mix Plus and Multi, they all have to act like Plus units. It's a drag to say the least. So that means I will have to sell off the Plus setup and buy all Multimax.

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

Softboxes are not about range. If you need range, shoot bare flash. A softbox is all about modifying the light to soften the shadow transition (hardness), and so the closer they are the softer the shadow. You adjust the distance to tailor the hardness and contrast. I can probably get the softbox about 10 to 20 feet from the subjects on the outside if I am doing a large group.

I know I'm :deadhorse but am I wasting effort trying to use a 580ex with a softbox or should I step up the power? Any thoughts on the Sunpak SuperPro 622?

Shay Stephens · October 23, 2005

Not to be flip, but...
What do you need the power for? I don't often run into power problems with the 555 units. But if you know you need a certain power level, then by all means get what you need (or think you need).

I do like the 622 flash as it offers a lot of versatility with flash heads and mounting light modifiers. That is the bigger consideration in my book. Sure you have a big powerful flash, but can you modify the light?

Look into that (light modifiers and their mounting) to help guide you in choosing the right flash for you.

Bodley wrote:

I know I'm :deadhorse but am I wasting effort trying to use a 580ex with a softbox or should I step up the power? Any thoughts on the Sunpak SuperPro 622?

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

What do you need the power for?

Guess thats what I'm asking - for general shooting of individuals and small groups (teams - 12-14 kids and smaller) how much power (assuming more power results in brighter flash) is needed? My thinking (which is probably wrong) is that the softbox will soften the light by dispersion which would seem to weaken the effect of the light since it would be covering a larger area (small flash small area large flash large area).

Thanks for all your help?
Greg

Nikolai · October 23, 2005

My 0.00002 of lumen
When I purchased my first lighting equipment few months ago I decided to follow Shay's advice: 555, PW, 10' stand, brolly-box (didn't - and still don't

- have fund$ for the soft-box).

It was not cheap, but I didn't have a single regret about it.

I used it several times by now, both indoors and outdoors.

Yesterday, for several reasons, I ordered a second 555 and PW receiver (already had a stand and spare umbrella) - and, a huge change for me, a light meter:-). This setup, complete with a nice background support rack from www.amvona.com and a couple of collapsible backgrounds gives me a capability to shoot both small and large groups, near or far.

I am still hoping to get 580EX (+bracket) eventually (for portability reasons), but as in a studio environment I think 555 bring way more bang for the buck. Just compare the unit prices and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Triggering you'll need in any case.. And I *love* PW! "No cords" deal makes a huge difference even at home! On location they are purely invaluable...

HTH

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

I am still hoping to get 580EX (+bracket) eventually (for portability reasons), but as in a studio environment I think 555 bring way more bang for the buck. Just compare the unit prices and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I already have a 580ex and 550ex - and I'm looking for a portable setup instead of a studio. Maybe I have what I need and just need to add a bracket. What kind of bracket?

I thought the 555 was a portable unit operating off of batteries. What extra is the 580ex going to give you in a box type setup. On-camera I can see the advantage - does ETTL still work using a box?

Nikolai · October 23, 2005

555, 580. etc.

Bodley wrote:

I already have a 580ex and 550ex - and I'm looking for a portable setup instead of a studio. Maybe I have what I need and just need to add a bracket. What kind of bracket?

I thought the 555 was a portable unit operating off of batteries. What extra is the 580ex going to give you in a box type setup. On-camera I can see the advantage - does ETTL still work using a box?

I was ready to buy Stroboframe Press-T bracket, but since I didn't get 580 yet I parked the idea for now.

580 is smaller and lighter than 555, can be mounted in the shoe itself w/o any brakets and can talk to my 20D directly. The proper TTL adapter for 555 costs a lot, and you *must* have a bracket, unless you want to have a one-sided flash...

I still may end up getting a bracket and use 555 as my on-camera flash even w/o TTL abilitites

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

I use a Sunpak 555 (you can use any light that is bright enough) on a 10' light stand, and a Chimera (again you can use anything here) 16x22" softbox.

Hey Shay

Is this the softbox you are talking about? Maxi Softbox, White Interior for Portable Flash - Extra Small - 16x22 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=13259&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigationChimera

Bodley · October 23, 2005

Nik,

Are you planning on using the 580ex in your Brollybox when you get one?

Greg

Nikolai · October 23, 2005

No, I don't think so..

Bodley wrote:

Nik,

Are you planning on using the 580ex in your Brollybox when you get one?

Greg

I think I will use the 550s with PWs on the stands and 580 as on-camera one for "candids" and the "in-crowd" shots. Also 555 is way bulkier than 580 and does not really fit into my bag (unless I lose a lens or two). It' not problem when hauling the rest (stands, backdrops, etc), but on a day-to-day basis I do want to have a portable, "always with me", yet powerful flash.

winger · October 28, 2005

Ok I think I am even more confused than when I first asked the question.

Maybe I need a basic class in lighting.

What is the difference between getting a set of alien bees or what ever for 110volts, what is the difference in the voltage on those studio light set ups.

What is the advantage disadvantage of doing the allien bees as opposed to some canon 580ex or some of the cheaper sunpacks.

Are the Pocket wizards easy to figure out, will the flashes or light or what ever the hell talk to them easily.

I wish there was a class I could take on this, i need to see, feel and do to learn this stuff and I feel like the more I read online about lighting, the more confused I get.

AGGHHHH

(and how does a light meter work?)

Shay Stephens · October 28, 2005

This is the one I am using:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=119016&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

But you can use anything really. They look like they have the same specs. The only difference between the two is being able to change the baffles and add accessories and such. They would both put out the same light if configured the same.

Bodley wrote:

Hey Shay

Is this the softbox you are talking about? Maxi Softbox, White Interior for Portable Flash - Extra Small - 16x22 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=13259&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigationChimera

pathfinder · October 28, 2005

winger wrote:

Ok I think I am even more confused than when I first asked the question.
Maybe I need a basic class in lighting.

Google for lighting classes or tutorials. There are several on the web. Or books on Amazon or Books a Million also.

What is the difference between getting a set of alien bees or what ever for 110volts, what is the difference in the voltage on those studio light set ups.

The real advantage of studio style strobes like Alien Bees. et al is power and lots of it. Portable flashes powered by AA batteries cannot begin to produce the amount of light a 110 volt studio strobe can. And they will usually not recycle as fast either. More pwer allows more use of diffusion and light modifying umbrellas et al without running out of light and having to shoot at too wide an aperature.

What is the advantage disadvantage of doing the allien bees as opposed to some canon 580ex or some of the cheaper sunpacks.

The advantage is lots more light - hence smaller aperatures, and greater ability to light larger areas such as large groups. The disadvantage is bigger, heavier, harder to move, tied to 110 volt lines, unless using a battery pack for studio strobes. Studio strobes may cost less than a 580EX though. The beauty of studio lighting is that once it is set up, the exposure rarely changes since YOU control the lighting. Many portable flashes are dependent to a certain extent on the ambient light. Studio strobes can overwhelm ambient light IF you desire, or they can be dialed way down to barely add to ambient light. It is all up to you.

Are the Pocket wizards easy to figure out, will the flashes or light or what ever the hell talk to them easily.

Most studio strobes have a flash sensing element that will trigger from an on-camera flash ( not bright enough for exposure - just to trigger the strobes) if it is not too bright - won't work reliably in sunlight or with other photgraphers flashes triggering the flashes. Wireless Pocket Wizards use radio channels for more secure and reliable triggering from your camera and then plug in a PC cord to the strobe head itself. Straight forward.

I wish there was a class I could take on this, i need to see, feel and do to learn this stuff and I feel like the more I read online about lighting, the more confused I get.

AGGHHHH

(and how does a light meter work?)

A standard light meter measure the ambient illumination over time. You need a light meter that will also meter brief flash exposures. I chose a Sekonic 358 as an inexpensive light meter that will also read flash exposures, and can be set up to trigger wireless flashes also, so you do not have to trigger your shutter to test exposures.

The question is not are studio strobes better than a pair of 580ex. The question is which will provide more usefull, and controallable, lighting for a specific task - studio strobes or portable electronic flashes will both work, but not in exactly the same way.

Shay Stephens · October 28, 2005

winger wrote:

What is the difference between getting a set of alien bees or what ever for 110volts, what is the difference in the voltage on those studio light set ups.

The supply voltage doesn't make much difference, except that line voltage can tend to recycle a flash faster than when running on batteries. The biggest difference I think is, where you plan on shooting, is there guaranteed and reliable AC power? Are power cords going to be ok on the set? If so, then AC powered lights are good. If no, the battery power may be a better option.

An AlienBee B400 is about as powerful as the Sunpak 383 if I remember my testing correctly.

What is the advantage disadvantage of doing the allien bees as opposed to some canon 580ex or some of the cheaper sunpacks.

Studio lights like the bees make it easier to use light modifiers. But as mentioned above, they require AC power.

Are the Pocket wizards easy to figure out, will the flashes or light or what ever the hell talk to them easily.

Yes

I wish there was a class I could take on this, i need to see, feel and do to learn this stuff and I feel like the more I read online about lighting, the more confused I get.

AGGHHHH

(and how does a light meter work?)

Lighting is difficult and it takes a long time to figure it out. Longer if you don't have lighting equipment to work with. So take your time, dont rush it. Tackle one thing at a time until you have all the little pieces figured out.

LiquidOps · October 28, 2005

ok... I may be way out of my league here, but i gotta ask...

I have a 717, no way I can afford a DSLR at this time, but I know that my 717 can hold it's own.

I just recently had a studio experience that really surprised me how capable my sony is.

I would like to get some lighting, not too costly, actually the cheapest I can go, but with a good result.... What setup do you recommend?

Currently I have the Sunpak 383 for my 717....

What do I need? What should I do?

The studio let me trigger wirelessly... man that was awesome.

Also, feel free to tell me if i'm in over my head... i've got a lot of models for potential shoots, just don't have the money to front for huge equipment yet..

Thanks again,

Steven

Shay Stephens · October 28, 2005

Get another 383 so you have a total of two lights - B&H# SU383S
Get two 10 foot light stands - alienbees # LS3050
Get two umbrella adapters - B&H # gbmb
Get two shoot through umbrellas - alienbees # U48TWB
Get two pocketwizard recievers - B&H # WIPWP
Get two sub-mini to miniphone cables - B&H# WICSM1
Get one pocketwizard transmitter - B&H # WIPWPT
This setup will let you do a lot of creative lighting. You can grow from here in any direction you want.

LiquidOps wrote:

What do I need? What should I do?

erich6 · January 22, 2006

pathfinder wrote:

A standard light meter measure the ambient illumination over time. You need a light meter that will also meter brief flash exposures. I chose a Sekonic 358 as an inexpensive light meter that will also read flash exposures, and can be set up to trigger wireless flashes also, so you do not have to trigger your shutter to test exposures.

PF,

Can you explain why an incident meter is required (or preferable) to using the camera exposure meter? One thing I like to understand is how the metering works with a modeling light vs. the actual flash that will be used. Is there a pre-programmed ratio of light power that the flashes use based on the known output of the modeling light vs. the strobe or does the spot meter provide feedback to the flash? How does the camera setting in manual mode relate to all of this?

Erich

Shay Stephens · January 22, 2006

Camera meters can't read flash, they can only work with ambient light. If you use flash, then a flash meter is the meter of choice.

Modeling lights only tell you the relative output of the flash. The modleing light gets dimmer, the flash will be dimmer. This has no effect on metering unless you are able to keep the modeling light on during the flash, and even then, the flash will likely overpower the modeling light. When using flash with modleing lights, you don't do any metering off the modeling lights, only the flash output.

You could use the modeling lights only as hot lights, not using the flash. In that case, the camera meter would work or a hand held light meter.

The reason for using manual exposure when using flash is that the camera has no way of measuring the flash output and therfore has no way of setting the exposure correctly or as consistently as when you set the exposure yourself. Once set, the lighting does not change and there is no need for variable exposure because the light is always the same until you change the lights output or position.

erich6 wrote:

PF,

Can you explain why an incident meter is required (or preferable) to using the camera exposure meter? One thing I like to understand is how the metering works with a modeling light vs. the actual flash that will be used. Is there a pre-programmed ratio of light power that the flashes use based on the known output of the modeling light vs. the strobe or does the spot meter provide feedback to the flash? How does the camera setting in manual mode relate to all of this?

Erich

erich6 · January 22, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

Camera meters can't read flash, they can only work with ambient light. If you use flash, then a flash meter is the meter of choice.

Modeling lights only tell you the relative output of the flash. The modleing light gets dimmer, the flash will be dimmer. This has no effect on metering unless you are able to keep the modeling light on during the flash, and even then, the flash will likely overpower the modeling light. When using flash with modleing lights, you don't do any metering off the modeling lights, only the flash output.

You could use the modeling lights only as hot lights, not using the flash. In that case, the camera meter would work or a hand held light meter.

The reason for using manual exposure when using flash is that the camera has no way of measuring the flash output and therfore has no way of setting the exposure correctly or as consistently as when you set the exposure yourself. Once set, the lighting does not change and there is no need for variable exposure because the light is always the same until you change the lights output or position.

Thanks Shay. That makes sense. Sounds like the modeling lights give the photographer a visual cue on how the light ratios will play out but aren't really used to set the gear up.

I guess the process then is to fire the flash to take a reading from each light. I'm assuming that these meters have the equivalent of Av or Tv program modes (and ISO settings)? Then average the readings. Do the meters do this or do I have to hash it out in my head?

I can see why it's beneficial to have a meter that triggers the flash units to fire. Otherwise, you'd have to have an assistant or hang the meter somewhere and then go back and fire the flash....

Thanks again for the info.

Erich

Shay Stephens · January 22, 2006

If you are using flash, then the meter will report back the aperture to use. You set the shutter speed the camera is set to, usually the sync speed of the camera. If you are shooting ambient, then you can use either shutter priority or aperture priority on the meter depending on which value you want to have the meter suggest.

I have always set the ratios myself. My meter (Sekonic L-358) might have that function, but I have never used it. If I want the fill light to be two stops darker than the main light, then I just set the power output on the main flash first, then set the fill flash power to provide two stops less light and verify with the meter.

Example, I am at the subjects position, I point the meter at the main light and the meter reads f/8, I then point the meter at the fill light and read f/5.6. Too bright for my needs, so I turn the power output down at the light and take another reading, this time, f/4. I then turn the meter toward the camera to get my overall meter reading and lets say that it is f/9. I then head to the camera and set the aperture on the camera to f/9 and take a picture.

If I am trying to balance the flash with the ambient light, then I use the % reading in the upper right hand corner. A reading of 50% means that half the light is coming from the flash and half from the ambient light. You can adjust the % by changing the flash ouput or the shutter speed of the camera (which controls the ambient).

Having the trigger in the meter has made my light so much easier. In the extreme, I don't even feel it is a luxury but as important as a memory stick. The time saved, the hassle, and the ability to make on the fly measurements really makes a difference.

erich6 wrote:

Thanks Shay. That makes sense. Sounds like the modeling lights give the photographer a visual cue on how the light ratios will play out but aren't really used to set the gear up.

I guess the process then is to fire the flash to take a reading from each light. I'm assuming that these meters have the equivalent of Av or Tv program modes (and ISO settings)? Then average the readings. Do the meters do this or do I have to hash it out in my head?

I can see why it's beneficial to have a meter that triggers the flash units to fire. Otherwise, you'd have to have an assistant or hang the meter somewhere and then go back and fire the flash....

Thanks again for the info.

Erich

DavidTO · January 22, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

If you are using flash, then the meter will report back the aperture to use...

Shay, sounds like we could really use a tutorial for lighting....we could put one here. You could write it. Free Tam Tams. Did you know that?

erich6 · January 22, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

If you are using flash, then the meter will report back the aperture to use. You set the shutter speed the camera is set to, usually the sync speed of the camera. If you are shooting ambient, then you can use either shutter priority or aperture priority on the meter depending on which value you want to have the meter suggest.

I have always set the ratios myself. My meter (Sekonic L-358) might have that function, but I have never used it. If I want the fill light to be two stops darker than the main light, then I just set the power output on the main flash first, then set the fill flash power to provide two stops less light and verify with the meter.

Example, I am at the subjects position, I point the meter at the main light and the meter reads f/8, I then point the meter at the fill light and read f/5.6. Too bright for my needs, so I turn the power output down at the light and take another reading, this time, f/4. I then turn the meter toward the camera to get my overall meter reading and lets say that it is f/9. I then head to the camera and set the aperture on the camera to f/9 and take a picture.

If I am trying to balance the flash with the ambient light, then I use the % reading in the upper right hand corner. A reading of 50% means that half the light is coming from the flash and half from the ambient light. You can adjust the % by changing the flash ouput or the shutter speed of the camera (which controls the ambient).

Having the trigger in the meter has made my light so much easier. In the extreme, I don't even feel it is a luxury but as important as a memory stick. The time saved, the hassle, and the ability to make on the fly measurements really makes a difference.

Awesome rundown Shay. Thanks, this demystifies a lot for me.

I think I understand how this works now. Lower the shutter speed and you get a higher percentage of ambient light vs. flash. The meter must figure this out because it can record the exposure prior to firing the flash and then compares to the output of the flash unit after you fire it. That's definitely a nifty tool.

Yes, it seems the trigger on the meter is a must but it certainly ups the ante on the equipment price. I suppose the same rule-of-thumb applies to lighting equipment as with lenses. Invest on the good stuff the first time.... I'm assuming the reliability is pretty high for the good quality equipment and that you can replace bulbs as needed.....

Erich

erich6 · January 22, 2006

DavidTO wrote:

Shay, sounds like we could really use a tutorial for lighting....we could put one here. You could write it. Free Tam Tams. Did you know that?

He seems to have a pretty good start with this thread!

I certainly do appreciate the tips!

Erich

Blurmore · January 25, 2006

My shot illustrating a 'kicker'
I've never heard it called a 'kicker' as Shay uses the term, but here is my example of large group overcast outdoor fill flash. Camera metered for illuminated far background, subjects in shade are 2 stops under. 580 ex on camera, Alien Bee 800 with standard reflector 6 feet to my left. Alien Bee powered by the vagabond portable power unit. Quatum radio slave for triggering. Notice the shadow at right, meant the alien bee was a touch hot, but everyone's faces are even.

lighting a large group

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