Unhappy Engagement Session
Hello,
I am an amateur photographer, and I recently did an engagement shoot for a friend of a friend. If they were happy with them they would then choose me to photograph their wedding next year. The pictures I took I was so happy with, and I felt like it showcased my style and eye for photography. After editing, and sending the disc of pictures to the couple she called me a few days later explaining to me that a handful of them were blurred, but she liked my style. So naturally I went back and looked at the pictures and I did include 2 photos that were slightly out of focus that I should not have included in their disc, but the rest were beautiful. I then looked at a couple more of the pictures, and noticed there was sun flare in 2 of them, but that was on purpose for a dreamy sort of effect, and perhaps she mistook them as blurred? They then decided if this was going to be the case that they were blurred she didn't want to use me for her wedding next year. I am a bit taken back by this, because I thought my photos were great. They were a laid back couple, they had no outfit changes, it was in a state park areaand brought their dog to the shoot, so we actually had a lot of fun taking them. I am not sure how to take this critique from her. I understand that I shouldn't have included the blurred images, but she had 55 others to chose from. Should I be discouraged? How do you avoid the details that were on purpose to create an effect that isn't understood by someone who isn't a photographer??
Thank you,
Kazers
I am an amateur photographer, and I recently did an engagement shoot for a friend of a friend. If they were happy with them they would then choose me to photograph their wedding next year. The pictures I took I was so happy with, and I felt like it showcased my style and eye for photography. After editing, and sending the disc of pictures to the couple she called me a few days later explaining to me that a handful of them were blurred, but she liked my style. So naturally I went back and looked at the pictures and I did include 2 photos that were slightly out of focus that I should not have included in their disc, but the rest were beautiful. I then looked at a couple more of the pictures, and noticed there was sun flare in 2 of them, but that was on purpose for a dreamy sort of effect, and perhaps she mistook them as blurred? They then decided if this was going to be the case that they were blurred she didn't want to use me for her wedding next year. I am a bit taken back by this, because I thought my photos were great. They were a laid back couple, they had no outfit changes, it was in a state park areaand brought their dog to the shoot, so we actually had a lot of fun taking them. I am not sure how to take this critique from her. I understand that I shouldn't have included the blurred images, but she had 55 others to chose from. Should I be discouraged? How do you avoid the details that were on purpose to create an effect that isn't understood by someone who isn't a photographer??
Thank you,
Kazers
0
Comments
You, and all of us photographers will be bound to find a client/couple/person/helicopter-mom (Angie knows this little story ...
Couple things:
Do you have a contract?
Did you get paid to do this?
All in all, don't get discouraged. Learn from it.
www.tednghiem.com
I did give them a contract that they were supposed to sign, but never brought it. I think they thought it was for the wedding if they hired me. Also I didn't ask for fee up front because it was sort of a favor, but they gave me $40 tip for meeting them, and they said for gas money
1. Did you have anything to show them before the shoot, as in "your photos will look like this?" If yes, did the photos meet the same standard?
2. Is this something that can be massaged into place? Can you smooth things over with them? Do you want to? Get to the heart of what exactly they do bot like.
3. Just because you have a personal/emotional/creative attachment to the photographs does not mean that they are good/great/etc.
4. As Ted asked, did you have a contract in place?
5. For whatever reason, they are not happy. Bail out now! Be happy that you will not shoot their wedding and have them unhappy with wedding photographs (which can not be replaced).
If I had to guess, and i will because this is not an uncommon story... You offered to do the shoot for next to nothing hoping they would hire you for their wedding. You have not shot a lot of weddings of engagement sessions, and wanted to use the opportunity to jump into them. You sold them in the idea that you could deliver. You did your homework, did the best you could, but the results may not look like the professional experienced photographer that the couple has seen in bridal magazines. Now they are starting to rethink their trust level in you before their wedding.
Moral of the story, master your craft.
Thank you, for your advice. I will continue to master my craft, and become better with time and practice. You are correct that they were some of my first clients, but I have been taking photographs for quite awhile now. Just wanted to start jumping into the business aspect of things recently. I have always had the philosophy with my pictures that do it because I love it first of all and never just for the money.
Also yes they did see my work prior to the shoot, and they enjoyed my style.
Anyway, can we see the images in question?
www.tednghiem.com
Please do not take this the wrong way, but if you are doing it for the love of photography do NOT get into the business of photography. Running a photography studio is 90% business and 10% photography. If you are not in love with the business side of things, you will get burned (out), taken advantage of, etc. I firmly believe that if your passion is in pictures, why not just take pictures? Why get buried in everything else?
Well said... Oh for a life without the mother of the bride, haha!
Also, probably 98% of my clients already had their engagement photos done by someone just like you... a family friend... just starting out, not charging. They love my photos and totally invest in them on the wedding day, but they'll take advantage of someone's free work for their engagement set any day. Why not? It doesn't cost them anything or very little. They know engagement sessions can always be reshot if they don't turn out. The fact that your clients didn't even bring clothing changes might clue you in that they didn't invest a whole lot of thought or planning into the set because they knew that you were new. There is a very good chance they never intended to hire you for their wedding day photos.
My advice: Grow your portfolio. Grow your skills. Practice practice practice. When you start kicking out photos that wow people, I can guarantee you'll get some more work. Paying work.
Heather,
While I do agree with you that there is a huge business aspect in this line of work, but where would any photographer be without actually having a love first for photography?? I am building a business, and yes I do need to Master my Craft, but there is nothing wrong with dabbling in the business side of things to start out. I come from a family of entrepreneurs, and I was never taught anything less than to go for my dreams. This is my dream to become a photographer, and own a photography business. That is in the future still, but I am currently working towards that by taking pictures and getting the practice that is key to getting better. I am taking business classes at the moment so that one day I can be prepared for the "business side" of thing.
Thank you,
Thank you,
if not, then I would also suggest this:
Absolutely... enjoy what you do. Photography is Art. Photography can be a business. It takes a long time to grow your art until it can support a business.... but it can be done! You can get there, but don't have unrealistic expectations that you can skip all the practice and portfolio building time and jump into the place that has taken others years and years to step into. Are your time and skills valuable enough to enough to charge for it? If you don't think so, then neither will your client unless you can point to a very nice portfolio of paid work.
Don't worry. I can fix you in photoshop.
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Agreed, post the gallery so we can help you improve.
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Now as to the photos: we would all love to see them because we'd love to give you constructive criticism and possibly help on the taking or editing side of things. Up to you whether or not you're comfortable with that, but I think it'd be much more productive and constructive - remember, we've all been there
Here are some of the images...
This is very good advice....I also believe that if you are in the Business of Photography strictly for the money and not because photography is your Passion, then do not do it ... It shows in the images you take.....It is an art form and I do believe you have a real passion for it.....at least that is the feeling I get from your posts......
If your portfolio did not show any lens flare images that may be what turned them off from them, talk to them give a re-shoot and learn from it....also in the future... 1 - do not give a free cd of images that are not paid for ... 2- even tho you are just starting out get a price sheet published...printed, and price your work no less than 75% of the going price in your area, so that you can say....as a favor I am discounting this shoot because it is to build my port with some fresh new IDEAS and I will be shooting some experimental stuff and I want your honest opinion...how ever I will shoot plenty of images for you to chose from in case the experimental shots do not work.... 3 - do not tell them you are very new to this, as you said you have been taking photos for awhile, so you are not new to cameras and photography...just the business of it..... and 4 - as stated before there are people looking for a freebie shoot all the time.....If you love the images you took post them on your website put them into your port, mark them as experimental...someone will LOVE them and ask for ones like that ... ...
Good Luck.....
The other two aren't really working as engagement session images. The one with dog could be better, if you didn't chop off one of the legs and shot a little wider. I am not sure if the dog helps with the scene where the dog is.
www.tednghiem.com
However at present I would definitely still warn against taking lightly the relationship between business and art, or the "dabbling" as it were.
I warn only because I was the same way. I pursued my passion of photography, and "dabbled" in the business. Then when I thought I was ready to "make my hobby pay my bills", I failed miserably and almost ruined my life. Thankfully now I get to be a full-time photographer, but ONLY because I've joined forces with others who have a far better grasp of business tactics etc.
Sometimes I think to myself, "if anyone is a good example of being a great photographer but still failing at business, it's me" ...but, I'll let others be the judge of my images!
Anyways, my point is that you should just be careful. Consider your professional and artistic goals. Give yourself a time-table for reaching those goals. And, in situations like this with clients who are unhappy or have second thoughts, I would first and foremost recommend- just practice being professional about it. If you feel that their reaction to your images isn't right, then maybe ask them to consider a re-shoot even if they're still certain they would like to hire someone else for the wedding. And, I hate to say it, but once you are ready to get truly serious about shooting professionally, I think that hands-down the best advice I can give you here is, (and I think that others here will agree) ...get a business coach or CPA, and don't trust what you read in internet communities. I don't mean to down-play the great advice that can be found here in this forum, but I think that everyone will agree with me when I say that if your goal is to be a professional, real-world business help is the #1 thing you can do for yourself. :-)
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
If you really want serious comments...show us your work.
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
Lots of good stuff here...+1
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
I learned long ago that the clients will be happy or not with the pics before you even show them to them based on how YOU come across at the shoot. Give them a good time, act the clown, get into their heads and find out what THEY want, not just what you think is wonderful, and they will be happy.
Make it all matter of fact, boring, have no personality and the pics can be award winners and they will be so so at best and complaining at worst. What they probably won't teach you in sales school but ought to spend the entire first lesson on it is people buy the person, the product and the price... In that order!
If you ever want proof of this, you should see my mate in action. Sells over $2M worth of computer data recovery services a year, is the company's top producer, barely knows how to turn on a PC and loads a premium onto every deal he puts together. these are international companies he's selling to and they sure as heck are not buying his product knowledge or competitive pricing!
He has a natural knack with people that they just like him and he can say things that other people would either cop a smack in the head for or have them laughed out of wherever he was but he can say things and people love him for it.
He credits me with his success as I was the one that taught him sales but i know it's not his sales skills that get him where he is, It's just his personality.
The one thing he did learn from me was the give them a good time thing.
As such he NEVER see's people in the office, it's always over coffee, a meal or a beer or 10 at the pub.
I always question anyone I shoot as to what it is THEY want. Most of the time they don't know so I offer suggestions on what I have decided to do anyway. 99% of the time they want something " Different" which is exactly what the last 100 clients said and I deliver the same style of images and they love it. I also include them a lot and get them excited. I show them the pics on the back of the camera, poke fun at them for the benefit of the other ( What?? He only bought you a 1 carat, $10,000 ring??? You should get rid of a cheap ass like that and get someone that will spoil you a bit!) I poke fun at myself and most importantly, make them laugh.
I don't know how many people would admit it but over the years I have done some ordinary jobs for whatever reason and whatever fault I had. I have yet to have a couple that were dissapointed or not hanging to see the pics. i'm not a particularly outgoing person in my private life but when i'm working, the game face goes on and i'm performing like an actor... or an idiot.
My wife has been laughing at me for years how i can be flat as a tack, walk through the studio door and be larger than life then the minute the client(s) leave, I'm comatose again.
It's just what the game requires for me.
It's not about the pics, it's not about the money. It's about a memory both of having the pics taken and the significance they hold. So many shooters get it wrong because they are too worried about producing the greatest pic ever taken and forget about the clients experience and what THEY are wanting.
They are never looking for the perfect pic but they are looking for the most meaningful ones to them and when you realize that and understand it to the point it's the controlling factor in every people pic you take without even thinking about it, then you will never have dissapointed clients again.
Oh, one other thing....
When ever you make a mistake, point it out to the client, call it art and they will think your a legend!
I highlighted the set-up words. If ....then. Basically you/they set you up with an expectation. That is why you're bothered by all of this. You had the expectation of a different outcome.
As far as the Dabbling I read about in your posts. I think dabbling is a poor choice of words/direction. Portfolio building is better, sounds better and gives you a direction.
Art, Tom and Heather and others great advice!
Kazer, don't beat yourself up too much, this is the business side of photography. Heather hit the nail on the head about your situation IMO. Definitely ask them what specifically they did not like Art said. It is important for you to charge for your services, people will value your photos more if they have money in them it is human nature. Below is a link to a great tutorial from Mark Wallace for Adorama about how to calculate how much to charge. This is the same formula that PPA recommends.
http://www.youtube.com/user/adoramaTV#p/c/7DE50CFC19370404/6/nDVTO7QDHgs
DavidBroadwell.com, My Smugmug Home
Agree with the above.
If the client is happy with their experience and you captured the story of the day, they will find reasons to love the photos. If the client is not happy with their experience they will find reasons to not be happy with the photos.
Look for and anticipate the relationships and the emotions of the day. Capture the story.
If the client enjoyed working with you and the "experience", the photos only have to be good enough. Of course everyone should strive to be much better than "good enough".
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i've always been a bit of a goof on or off the job but I never thought of it this way. I will certainly keep this in mind!
I would agree 100% with the post about linking the "good time" feelings with the resulting images.
When people see a picture, their mind links it to the time that they had while shooting it...it's unconsious...we do it all of the time...negative feelings or positive feelings....we do that linking.
I'm just a consumer of things and I can say that this approach has worked on me.
In any case....don't get discouraged...