Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited November 1, 2011
I totally agree that personal interaction and "people skills" in general play a large role in the satisfaction of the client.
HOWEVER, don't allow yourselves to downplay the importance of delivering QUALITY results, if we are going to call ourselves professionals. I know PLENTY of people who had someone photograph their wedding or portrait session, loved the photographer's personality and felt like the photos were rockin', ...but then a month or a year later when that "feeling" wore off, they realized just how bland or downright BAD their photos actually were.
To me, the test of time is the true gauge of "satisfaction". After a year has gone by and you can barely remember what you actually felt on that day, let alone remember the personality of whoever the heck shot your pictures, ...do the images still evoke emotion in you? Only a truly skilled photographer can capture images that withstand that test.
Or if you'd like to assume that everyone is superhuman, and say that they will NEVER forget those emotions, ...what about the friends, family, and eventually kids / grandkids, who were NOT present to feel those feelings? They will find it much more easy to judge the true quality of the photo, for sure. That is my ultimate goal as a photographer: to be able to impress / evoke emotion even in my subject's grandchildren. I know it sounds cheesy, it sounds like a cheap sales pitch to get a client to book me ; but REALLY, if that's not our "job" as photographers, what is?
So, honestly? I think the whole "charming personality" thing is just a business marketing tactic, a (necessary) tool for simply staying in business. However it is NOT a true gauge of the client's satisfaction with the images.
HOWEVER, don't allow yourselves to downplay the importance of delivering QUALITY results, if we are going to call ourselves professionals. I know PLENTY of people who had someone photograph their wedding or portrait session, loved the photographer's personality and felt like the photos were rockin', ...but then a month or a year later when that "feeling" wore off, they realized just how bland or downright BAD their photos actually were.
To me, the test of time is the true gauge of "satisfaction". After a year has gone by and you can barely remember what you actually felt on that day, let alone remember the personality of whoever the heck shot your pictures, ...do the images still evoke emotion in you? Only a truly skilled photographer can capture images that withstand that test.
So, honestly? I think the whole "charming personality" thing is just a business marketing tactic, a (necessary) tool for simply staying in business. However it is NOT a true gauge of the client's satisfaction with the images.
Well, to blow my own trumpet i must be playing the idiot right somehow.
About 2 1/2 months ago I was doing a charity Ball. A couple approached me and asked If I ever had a studio at my subrub. I said I still have teh same place there. He said you did our wedding and introduced himself and their 14 yo daughter. I did their wedding 17 years ago.
They remembered me and i remembered them.
They said what a great time they had and recounted some friends weddings they had been in the bridal party for and how the photographers were boring, pushy or had no personality.
They were also saying how they still got the album out at least a couple of time a year and how they still loved the pictures.
The woman said she didn't like showing the album to friends any more because she had put a couple of noses out of joint when she showed people and they compared them to the albums they got and they had paid double or more. They guy said he nearly fell over at the cost of the album at the time but He would never part with it now at any price.
They also commented how when it started to rain on the day I told them it was an opportunity and not everyone had the chance to get shots like we could do and how that when they were feeling dissapointed I got more excited and got everyone into it and the pics were great.
I don't think everyone would recall the detail these guys did so many years down the track but if just some do then I think I have hit the right formula and hit it some time back as well.
There is obviously a balance in experience Vs. product but if the equation slides too far either way it's less than ideal.
Certainly the experience is far from the be all of the job and the pics are important but like most things, it's the combination of elements that make up the sum total and if the elements are right then the end product will be something the client is as happy with as they can be.
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Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
Well, to blow my own trumpet i must be playing the idiot right somehow.
About 2 1/2 months ago I was doing a charity Ball. A couple approached me and asked If I ever had a studio at my subrub. I said I still have teh same place there. He said you did our wedding and introduced himself and their 14 yo daughter. I did their wedding 17 years ago.
They remembered me and i remembered them.
They said what a great time they had and recounted some friends weddings they had been in the bridal party for and how the photographers were boring, pushy or had no personality.
They were also saying how they still got the album out at least a couple of time a year and how they still loved the pictures.
The woman said she didn't like showing the album to friends any more because she had put a couple of noses out of joint when she showed people and they compared them to the albums they got and they had paid double or more. They guy said he nearly fell over at the cost of the album at the time but He would never part with it now at any price.
They also commented how when it started to rain on the day I told them it was an opportunity and not everyone had the chance to get shots like we could do and how that when they were feeling dissapointed I got more excited and got everyone into it and the pics were great.
I don't think everyone would recall the detail these guys did so many years down the track but if just some do then I think I have hit the right formula and hit it some time back as well.
There is obviously a balance in experience Vs. product but if the equation slides too far either way it's less than ideal.
Certainly the experience is far from the be all of the job and the pics are important but like most things, it's the combination of elements that make up the sum total and if the elements are right then the end product will be something the client is as happy with as they can be.
I think that is the ULTIMATE flattering comment that a wedding photographer can receive, when a bride is EMBARASSED to show her album to certain other couples because her wedding photos blow theirs away by such a huge margin. THAT indicates that you definitely did something right with the images!
Your'e right that both the experience and the product are both critical. Could I place more weight on one versus the other? No. Let alone, discredit one as non-essential. Both are EXTREMELY important, and anyone who calls themselves a professional should always be raising their standards for both aspects. If your images are stunning, think about your customer service a little bit. If your personality is awesome, think about your images for a while... :-)
How about some C&C from a guy who has no relationship to the subject or the photographer.
In the first image the clothing....and especially the hat.....is just awful. NOT something I would include on the list of appropriate clothing for a session. That said, finishing the image in black and white rather than color would have greatly improved the cohesiveness in so far as the distracting colors are concerned. The pose is decent. The composition is nearly well done. If her foot werent cut off at the frames edge I'd have no complaints there.
In the second you finished it in black and white....YAAAAAH!.....but still....these are full length poses that are missing feet....as well as only half a dog.
The third image....creatively....does nothing for me. The tree is growing out of her head and the dog seems out of place here. And theres that wardrobe again.
OK...so I am picky about photography. Why wouldn't I be....as I have a passion for it as you do. Still though......in my honest opinion.... these are less than stellar. But you can see from my comments that a couple minor "fixes" before, during, and after the captures may have made a tremendous difference.
A photographer's job...
IMO the job of a paid photographer is to guide and advise his clients in what makes a good image and what detracts from any image,
Clothing is one area in which I think that a professional's input can be the difference between good photography and unflattering pictures which are not liked by the clients.
It takes a lot of tact to be able to guide a couple regarding the outfits that they choose for any photo session. It is often easier to provide the prospective clients with a written set of guiselines.
My own personal dislike is exceptionally heavy gals in off the shoulder dresses. It is difficult to get a flattering picture of a heavy gal dressed like that.
They want direction, and usually follow it to a "t". For e sessions and for weddings.
I think at least half my brides tell me they are only wearing a veil because my educational material about flattering wedding day photos talked them into it. Since almost all of them are wearing strapless gowns, veils help a ton in creating flattering images.
It's better to deliver less photos than include something that is less than perfect. ... unless it, for some reason, contains amazing emotion or once-in-a-lifetime-ness... and even then, you better be sure it's still worth printing @ 20x30 or you shouldn't deliver. INVARIABLY, you will be asked for a massive print of your least technically-good photo you deliver. It's a rule of wedding photography.
Also, maybe I missed it, but if this is a friend... you need to just accept you aren't the phtotographer for them and maintain your friendship. If you don't care about the friendship as much -- then it might be worth it for your own personal growth to get together with them and look at the photos together and have them "give it to you straight".
Sometimes, especially early on when you are building a style, what you deliver is not what they expect based on your portfolio. It's not that your portfolio is bad or inconsistent ... it's that your style is all over the map, so even YOU don't know what you'll be delivering. Additionally, you might not be as confident in yourself to simply do what you think is best... so in attempting to guess what they want you end up not really producing 'your own' style of work, ya know?
Another consideration is: Can they actually afford someone good? It could be they were giving you a shot to see if they could find that proverbial unpolished diamond before you blew up and started charging the big bucks... you gave them 'acceptable' work but they have the budget to drop 3-5k on someone really good, so they are going to go with that plan instead. Your chances were basically slim from the start.
I'm not a professional photographer but I have been delivering professional services for over 20 years. Sorry if I am repeating what someone else already said but even if I am I think it would be worth repeating.
That is, when you give something for free it is often that the perceived value is the same... Zero. They will feel less compelled to work with you and give you another chance since they have no skin in the game.
Another way to provide cost relief would be to offer the engagement at full price then offer a print credit equal to the same amount on the wedding.
If you give away your work some people may view this approach as a lack of confidence in your work.
Hey, new to this but couldn't resist to add to this interesting subject. Very good advice so far but would like to add - in the real world, u win some and u loose some. If u happy with your work that's what counts, at the end of day u have to enjoy what u do.
Although I don't expect everyone to be as self-critical as me, I would think that finding your own photos beautiful while being at the "low-level hobbyist trying to break into professional work" skill level is not really a good sign.
I would be asking myself many questions about the few photos shown. Why did I cut this, what is my focal point here, would it be better if....?....
Often times people are looking for justification, even if they ask for criticism. Not getting the reinforcement he wanted of pictures (or some magic insight to remedy the situation) that he was highly attached to probably drove him away.
Comments
HOWEVER, don't allow yourselves to downplay the importance of delivering QUALITY results, if we are going to call ourselves professionals. I know PLENTY of people who had someone photograph their wedding or portrait session, loved the photographer's personality and felt like the photos were rockin', ...but then a month or a year later when that "feeling" wore off, they realized just how bland or downright BAD their photos actually were.
To me, the test of time is the true gauge of "satisfaction". After a year has gone by and you can barely remember what you actually felt on that day, let alone remember the personality of whoever the heck shot your pictures, ...do the images still evoke emotion in you? Only a truly skilled photographer can capture images that withstand that test.
Or if you'd like to assume that everyone is superhuman, and say that they will NEVER forget those emotions, ...what about the friends, family, and eventually kids / grandkids, who were NOT present to feel those feelings? They will find it much more easy to judge the true quality of the photo, for sure. That is my ultimate goal as a photographer: to be able to impress / evoke emotion even in my subject's grandchildren. I know it sounds cheesy, it sounds like a cheap sales pitch to get a client to book me
So, honestly? I think the whole "charming personality" thing is just a business marketing tactic, a (necessary) tool for simply staying in business. However it is NOT a true gauge of the client's satisfaction with the images.
Take care,
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Well, to blow my own trumpet i must be playing the idiot right somehow.
About 2 1/2 months ago I was doing a charity Ball. A couple approached me and asked If I ever had a studio at my subrub. I said I still have teh same place there. He said you did our wedding and introduced himself and their 14 yo daughter. I did their wedding 17 years ago.
They remembered me and i remembered them.
They said what a great time they had and recounted some friends weddings they had been in the bridal party for and how the photographers were boring, pushy or had no personality.
They were also saying how they still got the album out at least a couple of time a year and how they still loved the pictures.
The woman said she didn't like showing the album to friends any more because she had put a couple of noses out of joint when she showed people and they compared them to the albums they got and they had paid double or more. They guy said he nearly fell over at the cost of the album at the time but He would never part with it now at any price.
They also commented how when it started to rain on the day I told them it was an opportunity and not everyone had the chance to get shots like we could do and how that when they were feeling dissapointed I got more excited and got everyone into it and the pics were great.
I don't think everyone would recall the detail these guys did so many years down the track but if just some do then I think I have hit the right formula and hit it some time back as well.
There is obviously a balance in experience Vs. product but if the equation slides too far either way it's less than ideal.
Certainly the experience is far from the be all of the job and the pics are important but like most things, it's the combination of elements that make up the sum total and if the elements are right then the end product will be something the client is as happy with as they can be.
I think that is the ULTIMATE flattering comment that a wedding photographer can receive, when a bride is EMBARASSED to show her album to certain other couples because her wedding photos blow theirs away by such a huge margin. THAT indicates that you definitely did something right with the images!
Your'e right that both the experience and the product are both critical. Could I place more weight on one versus the other? No. Let alone, discredit one as non-essential. Both are EXTREMELY important, and anyone who calls themselves a professional should always be raising their standards for both aspects. If your images are stunning, think about your customer service a little bit. If your personality is awesome, think about your images for a while... :-)
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
In the first image the clothing....and especially the hat.....is just awful. NOT something I would include on the list of appropriate clothing for a session. That said, finishing the image in black and white rather than color would have greatly improved the cohesiveness in so far as the distracting colors are concerned. The pose is decent. The composition is nearly well done. If her foot werent cut off at the frames edge I'd have no complaints there.
In the second you finished it in black and white....YAAAAAH!.....but still....these are full length poses that are missing feet....as well as only half a dog.
The third image....creatively....does nothing for me. The tree is growing out of her head and the dog seems out of place here. And theres that wardrobe again.
OK...so I am picky about photography. Why wouldn't I be....as I have a passion for it as you do. Still though......in my honest opinion.... these are less than stellar. But you can see from my comments that a couple minor "fixes" before, during, and after the captures may have made a tremendous difference.
Just an honest opinion.
Jeff
-Need help with Dgrin?; Wedding Photography Resources
-My Website - Blog - Tips for Senior Portraiture
IMO the job of a paid photographer is to guide and advise his clients in what makes a good image and what detracts from any image,
Clothing is one area in which I think that a professional's input can be the difference between good photography and unflattering pictures which are not liked by the clients.
It takes a lot of tact to be able to guide a couple regarding the outfits that they choose for any photo session. It is often easier to provide the prospective clients with a written set of guiselines.
My own personal dislike is exceptionally heavy gals in off the shoulder dresses. It is difficult to get a flattering picture of a heavy gal dressed like that.
I think at least half my brides tell me they are only wearing a veil because my educational material about flattering wedding day photos talked them into it. Since almost all of them are wearing strapless gowns, veils help a ton in creating flattering images.
It's better to deliver less photos than include something that is less than perfect. ... unless it, for some reason, contains amazing emotion or once-in-a-lifetime-ness... and even then, you better be sure it's still worth printing @ 20x30 or you shouldn't deliver. INVARIABLY, you will be asked for a massive print of your least technically-good photo you deliver. It's a rule of wedding photography.
Also, maybe I missed it, but if this is a friend... you need to just accept you aren't the phtotographer for them and maintain your friendship. If you don't care about the friendship as much -- then it might be worth it for your own personal growth to get together with them and look at the photos together and have them "give it to you straight".
Sometimes, especially early on when you are building a style, what you deliver is not what they expect based on your portfolio. It's not that your portfolio is bad or inconsistent ... it's that your style is all over the map, so even YOU don't know what you'll be delivering. Additionally, you might not be as confident in yourself to simply do what you think is best... so in attempting to guess what they want you end up not really producing 'your own' style of work, ya know?
Another consideration is: Can they actually afford someone good? It could be they were giving you a shot to see if they could find that proverbial unpolished diamond before you blew up and started charging the big bucks... you gave them 'acceptable' work but they have the budget to drop 3-5k on someone really good, so they are going to go with that plan instead. Your chances were basically slim from the start.
Here is a wedding website I created for a customer as a value-add. Comments appreciated.
Founding member of The Professional Photography Forum as well.
That is, when you give something for free it is often that the perceived value is the same... Zero. They will feel less compelled to work with you and give you another chance since they have no skin in the game.
Another way to provide cost relief would be to offer the engagement at full price then offer a print credit equal to the same amount on the wedding.
If you give away your work some people may view this approach as a lack of confidence in your work.
Just my .02
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk
Although I don't expect everyone to be as self-critical as me, I would think that finding your own photos beautiful while being at the "low-level hobbyist trying to break into professional work" skill level is not really a good sign.
I would be asking myself many questions about the few photos shown. Why did I cut this, what is my focal point here, would it be better if....?....
_____________________________________________
My Site
cmaldridgephoto.com
blog.cmaldridgephoto.com