Strobing Basketball--SB600's good enough?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give!
I've been strobing high school basketball quite successfully for a couple of years now using pocket wizards, lithium batteries and SB-600's. I usually put the SB-600s (1 on each corner) either up on the catwalk or on 13' light stands about 10-15' diagonally back from the corner of the court and point them towards the top of the key at 1/4-1/2 power, zoomed to 70-80mm. I only shoot one side of the court for the entire game, can generally get good light to almost mid-court. Get pretty good shots, the parents love it, good sales and they look great for printing up to at least 8x10 if not larger.
So I got picked up by MaxPreps as a freelance and am being sorely tested by their editing department--which actually I really appreciate because it just makes me try harder. However, I can't seem to get close to touching the crystal clear, tack sharp pictures the editor is pushing me to get. Mine are sharp, but I'm still getting too much noise, the focus isn't tack sharp and the quality of light it not nearly as good. I'm shooting generally at 3.5-4 ap, 1/250 to sync with the flashes and 640-800 iso. I am using a Nikon D700, these were shot with my 80-200, but I get the same results with my 85 1.8. Below are examples of my shots (cropped in close to show issues, these are the PP versions--light noise reduction already applied) and one of his shots (last). Of course, if I print these 5x7 they look awesome, but not close to what he's doing, which you could blow up as wall art and it would look tack sharp.
He is shooting with a Canon Mark IV, 1/320, f/5, 640 at 70mm. Using 2 Alien Bee 1600's in generally the same position with 6" reflectors. Long story short, do I need to upgrade to the Alien Bee's to get that kind of light? If I push my power up on the 600s any more the recycle time is really slow. And the 600's don't allow for an external battery pack. The expense of the 1600's plus battery packs is really out of my reach right now.
Suggestions? Help? Thanks in advance!!!!
Example Pic (Mine):
Closeup--problems:
Another closeup:
Editor's Example Pic/Tack Sharp:
I've been strobing high school basketball quite successfully for a couple of years now using pocket wizards, lithium batteries and SB-600's. I usually put the SB-600s (1 on each corner) either up on the catwalk or on 13' light stands about 10-15' diagonally back from the corner of the court and point them towards the top of the key at 1/4-1/2 power, zoomed to 70-80mm. I only shoot one side of the court for the entire game, can generally get good light to almost mid-court. Get pretty good shots, the parents love it, good sales and they look great for printing up to at least 8x10 if not larger.
So I got picked up by MaxPreps as a freelance and am being sorely tested by their editing department--which actually I really appreciate because it just makes me try harder. However, I can't seem to get close to touching the crystal clear, tack sharp pictures the editor is pushing me to get. Mine are sharp, but I'm still getting too much noise, the focus isn't tack sharp and the quality of light it not nearly as good. I'm shooting generally at 3.5-4 ap, 1/250 to sync with the flashes and 640-800 iso. I am using a Nikon D700, these were shot with my 80-200, but I get the same results with my 85 1.8. Below are examples of my shots (cropped in close to show issues, these are the PP versions--light noise reduction already applied) and one of his shots (last). Of course, if I print these 5x7 they look awesome, but not close to what he's doing, which you could blow up as wall art and it would look tack sharp.
He is shooting with a Canon Mark IV, 1/320, f/5, 640 at 70mm. Using 2 Alien Bee 1600's in generally the same position with 6" reflectors. Long story short, do I need to upgrade to the Alien Bee's to get that kind of light? If I push my power up on the 600s any more the recycle time is really slow. And the 600's don't allow for an external battery pack. The expense of the 1600's plus battery packs is really out of my reach right now.
Suggestions? Help? Thanks in advance!!!!
Example Pic (Mine):
Closeup--problems:
Another closeup:
Editor's Example Pic/Tack Sharp:
0
Comments
I was SICK of their stupid cropping rules, the sincere lack of any coordination with schools on the local level ("sorry, we only deal with state level organizations") and the fact their photo editor tried to tell me I didn't know how to shoot basketball and my flash wasn't powerful enough to overpower ambient (when in fact I was a good 4 stops over which I was compensating by lighting the back-court with additional flashes and they were visible in 9 out of 200 shots so they declined my gallery instead of telling me to delete those 9 pictures.)
Unless you really need the credentials, I'd skip max preps. Seriously.
And yes, they are damn picky on in focus, plus the extra work to crop to their stupid 1600x2166 pixels (exactly).. Ugh
But to say this, try shooting in single frame mode. I just shot a game where I had to bump the power of my 580EXII (equivalent to SB900 power) up to 1/2 and that went from instant recycle that I normall have (at 1/4 power) to something I could not shoot continuous with. If you shoot at a higher level with big strobes like in the pro/college level, you are only shooting 1 frame at a time. Yes, I use battery packs... because rechargable batteries still won't last me an entire game on their own.. but you need to work on timing.
As for the focus issues.. I really don't see how they can bitch that much about those images. I've seen much, MUCH worse. Your ambient to flash is good because you have no blurring of the players... I dunno.. I think they are a little too anal retentive over there at MP.. much more than my bosses at the newspaper... and I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But just the amount of extra work, for me, wasn't worth the hassle of wondering every time I upload are they going to ding one of my galleries for something that could had easily been deleted vs killing the whole gallery.
Thanks so much for the reply--and believe me, I get what you are saying and MP does ask for some things I don't need to do to deliver great shots to my clients. My main motivation right now is I'm the team photog for the number one women's basketball team in the country (well, at least MaxPreps computerized rating system is rating them that way right now), and I want to follow them in the future and hope to get creds to get into playoffs and state finals if possible (where I'm guessing I couldn't even use a strobe anyways, how ironic). That's one reason, the other is I'd just really like to know what the heck I need to do to get shots like his example.
I'm guessing from your post that if the 580EXII is equal to SB900, then I am way underpowered with my SB600s. So taking MaxPreps out of the equation, it sounds like I need some larger strobes along with battery packs, which it would be really hard for me to afford right now. And I have slowed my shots waaayyyyy down and trying to time it right, but of course that means I am producing a lot less, no matter how good I get at that.
So what I'm really asking is what do I need to do go up to the next level in quality? Can I get a perfectly lit, tack sharp picture with what I have or do I need to invest in some larger strobes? I could sell the 600's but there are times I can imagine needing them so that doesn't seem wise.
Again, really appreciate your perspective, I get it.
Karen
I see it in the first photo on the jersey lettering and on the fingers in the second.
If they really are your photos you need to look into why the EXIF data is not showing your name.
Hi Pipster,
Thanks! You have a good eye--I do see the ghosting on the fingertips now--so I'm not overpowering the ambient enough? I cringe to bring more noise by my upping my iso, can't really lower the shutter below 250 so the solution is more light from the strobes?
And who the heck is Earl Gibson and I don't see that on the EXIF--I bought this camera used a couple of years ago but his name wasn't Earl Gibson (!). I didn't know you could even enter your name into the camera settings, I'll have to check into that...
Karen
Karen
If you are not overpowering the ambient enough you would lower your ISO not increase it. The strobes may not be powerful enough for that to happen under certain lighting conditions.
Also check to see which date the photos were taken. According to my EXIF reader they were taken in January of 2011.
Below is a screen grab of the EXIF data for one of the photos.
Earl Gibson.jpg
Thanks--looks like my year is off as well ****sigh****. Well, it's been an interesting morning learning about my EXIF data--I do appreciate it! That makes sense about the iso, I was getting it backwards as I was thinking I wanted to let in more of the flash, but of course that let's in more of the ambient too (duh).
So I guess my question still stands--what would be the most cost effective way to strobe the court other than the SB600's, with a decent recycle time? Recommendations?
Ghosting and motion blur are two different beasts. Motion blur you are going to get regardless of what you do unless your flash t.1 time is > 1/4000 of a second. Ghosting you will get when your flashes are too close to ambient (less than 2 stop difference)
I'll be back in a bit with a few samples because I had these issues when I first started shooting basketball with lights, so I'm all too familiar.. and I'm a damn tech nut.. so I figured out how to fix it.
100%
See how the outline of the jersey is almost like there are 2 of them? That's from the ambient being too high, then the flash popping to light the subject so you get some of the ambient mixed with the flash. Motion blur is VERY similar but instead of being sharp, one plane of your subject is going to be blurry (not doubled like this) because of the movement speed combined with a relatively slow flash speed.
For the 580EXII, this is the flash duration table:
1/1 power = 1/1000 second
1/2 power = 1/2000
1/4 power = 1/4000
1/8 power = 1/9000
1/16 power = 1/15000
1/32 power = 1/21000
1/64 power = 1/30000
1/128 power = 1/35000
Which means, anything over 1/4 power you are going to experience motion blur if you really get down to pixel peeping the photos...
I found the flash duration for your SB600 online as well, they are:
1/900 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1600 sec. at M1/2 output
1/3400 sec. at M1/4 output
1/6600 sec. at M1/8 output
1/11100 sec. at M1/16 output
1/20000 sec. at M1/32 output
1/25000 sec. at M1/64 output
You should right on the border at 1/4 power, but anything less you are risking motion blur with your photos. Solutions? More flashes (quantity) to raise the amount of flash power in total... or raising your ISO but then that brings on the risk of getting too close to ambient and causing ghosting.
It's a fine game of cat an mouse.. getting the flash enough to prevent MB, without causing ghosting and every gym and every set of lights is going to be different!
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Hi, yes, unfortunately the D700 maxes out the sync speed at 1/250. So is this motion blur? ....which could be fixed by.....? (cropped image, ignore the composition, thx)
How about I put my 3rd 600 (and last) into action, using 3 strobes?
Ummm . . . no it doesn't. Look in your manual on pages 305-306.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Ahhhh, good light, you can never have enough of it....or in my case....afford to buy enough of it.....
I'll throw the other 600 into the mix and see what happens. I have a game tomorrow where I have to bounce off the ceiling (no direct strobes allowed) in a crappy gym with 3 600's and a broken sync cord.....ooohhhh, can't wait....
She's only shooting at 1/4 power anyway. I've not noticed any banding at 1/320.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Just another reason to spring for some Paul C Buff Einsteins!!
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I knew about the FP mode, but have heard negative things and am not sure how to use it well--here's Ken's take, do you think I should give it a try? Can't afford to screw up a bunch of pics this late in the season, it makes me a little nervous....
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/syncspeed.htm#fp
I'm taking donations....would you like my paypal account address so you can make a deposit?
I'm not suggesting you try to shoot at 1/1000. Just 1/320. As I said, it isn't much, but every little bit helps. I've not noticed any black banding at 1/320. I'm not trying to shoot bursts though. There really isn't much to "know" about it. It just seems to work. I guess if you were reeealllly good at timing, you COULD crank your SS up to 1/1000 and let 'em rip on single shot. That'd kill your ambient and stop your motion blur, but I, fer sure, ain't that good (or lucky.)
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Ooooh . . . I have a better idea! Why don't you buy my three SB600s so you'll have an eye-melting battery of speedlights, and I'll take the $$ you wire to MY PayPal account and buy some Einsteins!
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
you are killing me!!!!! I will try the 320 though...what can it hurt?
And I say, we sell our 6 sb600's as a unit on Ebay and purchase new lights for both of us!
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Are you moving to DC or am I moving to SD?
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Don't underestimate the power of the little flash. I'm telling you! While yes, in a perfect world, I'd own a crapload of Spedotron Blacks (the ones the pro sports photographers use to light arenas) Speedlights can hold their own and you don't have to worry about finding outlets for them all.
If the photos look underexposed, bring them up in post - you're already at a low ISO for the D700, so increasing the exposure in Lightroom or whatever shouldn't introduce a lot of noise. If so, then use Lightroom's noise reduction feature or purchase Noise Ninja or Neat Image. Either of one those is less than $50 I think. Much cheaper than another SB-600, light stand, etc.
Good luck, and show us the results of your tweaks!
www.rfcphotography.com
I've lived in DC (loved it), but I think the better choice is you move here, especially this time of year
I had a much better night shooting last night, with a couple of funny incidents relating to our posts. So this gym has a catwalk (love it), I threw in my extra SB600, so I had one in the middle behind the basket bouncing off the ceiling first at 1/2 power, then at full (burned through a lot of lithiums). The other two lights were on the corners of the court, superclamped to the railing pointing down at an angle to the top of the key, at 1/4 +2/3. At the risk of blazing out the coach who was directly in the line of fire, but fortunately he's a nice guy and didn't complain. I also was VERY selective about my shots so (a) there would be recycle time and (b) there would hopefully be no complaints about all the flashing.
Well, it was MUCH better. The combination of an extra light, and all lights closer to the court, made everything much sharper, the images popped and very little motion blur. Please see below, C&C appreciated!!
I sit under the basket because otherwise I get one ref or the other's butt in my face--it is like the do it purposely. The angle isn't the best, but that's the best I've found. Other ideas?
The funny part (well, one of them), is I came to the JV game first to set up and get the lights "just right" and for the LIFE of me I could not figure out why the right side of the court was dark. I went back and forth up the *&^%$ catwalk 5x before I finally figured out.....I had the ss at 320. So YES, with a D700, there is a black band if you strobe at 320! Other setting were for the most part 1/250, f3-3.5 and iso 500.
Closeup: