It's me but WHY, WHY, WHY??

Bilsen

I have a problem that's making me nuts (nuttier??) and I could use advice from you people
.

In any shoot, anywhere from 5-10% of the frames come out unsaveable blurru/soft. I know it's my technique because I have tested three different bodies (450 D, 550D and 600D) and I shoot with two "L" lenses (24-105 f4 IS and 70-200 f4 IS). The perplexing issue is that the next shot may be in fine focus with the same settings, in the same light.


The following frames are straight SOOC with nothing done except resizing for the web. I'm not looking for normal C&C on these. All I want to figure out is what I'm doing wrong.

They are ALL shot with AF in One Shot (not AI Servo) in single frame mode and with a single AF point planted right between her eyes. (usually the top point for portrait and the side point for landscape). IS is active on all shots.


24-105 f4 IS 1/200 @ f4, 200 ISO


SAME SETTINGS 3 secs later


Same thing happens in bright conditions
70-200 f4 IS, 1/30 at 40mm, f4 ISO 200


The next two of this set were sharp with what sould be my sharpest lens.

So my question is what the hell am I doing to lose that many frames to blurs?

CWSkopec

John, I'm not a people shooter, but I've seen similar results when not using a lens hood.

In your first example, the top of the frame is showing evidence that extraneous light is hitting the lens. This could very well explain some (if not all) of the problem.

But I have very little experience shooting people, so I may be way off.

Bilsen

Thanks CW.

I never click the shutter without the lens hood, even indoors with flash. There was bright light top right (the sun) but it was the same in both so I don't get why they are so different.

Rufus280

You don't mention the use of a tripod, but 1/200 shutter is not real fast if you're hand held.
In the 3rd image you state the shutter is 1/30 which of course is way too slow for hand held.

Beyond the above, to test your AF, try using a tripod, turning any IS off, and shooting a fixed object.
Then turn IS on and shoot a sequence.
If you don't experience a problem, then it would certainly point to slow shutters and/or hand movement.

Bilsen

Thanks.

No tripod Rufus. All handheld.

I agree 1/30 is slow but I got the next three sharp with the same SS and I shoot all day at 200 .
Go figure.

divamum

Rufus280 wrote: »

You don't mention the use of a tripod, but 1/200 shutter is not real fast if you're hand held.
In the 3rd image you state the shutter is 1/30 which of course is way too slow for hand held.

Yes on both counts. I think the slowest I go handheld unless I'm shooting in the pitch dark and have no choice is ~1/100 or so - I'm happiest at 1/250. With a crop camera, I've definitely found that it's safer to go 1/2x focal length rather than the traditional 1/focal length, especially with one of the more pixel-dense sensors (in my case a 7d).

If you're shooting these in fast sequence, the 2nd one will often be sharper - I find this regularly. I'm not sure if it's because I'm steadier, because of the way the mirror works or what, but I've certainly experienced this.

Otherwise...

Sam

Obviously I can't know for sure, but my thoughts are that based on your camera bodies using anything other than the center point could be problematic. The center focus point is a cross type (more accurate) and I believe on your camera bodies the other / outer focus points are not.

Also I wonder if the underexposure (darker area caused any focus issues.

On the third shot using the 70-200 what focal length did you use? I can't consistently hand hold at 1/30.

Not part of the question but you might get a sharper image by stopping down a little.

The next thing to do is put your camera on a tripod use a remote cable, and outer focus points. reset the focus ring between shots. That should let you know if it's a body lens issue or operator error.

Sam

Bilsen

Diva, I'm glad to know someone else sees this problem. Maybe you're right about crop cameras.

Sam, I thought it might be the AF points but those images were taken today with a T4i that I rented specifically to test this theory. The T4i has all cross type AF points. Great idea but not the answer.

The third shot is at 40 mm so that means I listed the wrong lens. it was the 24-105. Just belive me, I have the same problem with the 70-200 and that lens used to be dead sharp.

I'll try your tripod experiment soon.

Thank you both.

novicesnapper

Steve, I know it sounds too simple, but check the AF mode. I change mine sometimes depending on subjects. Still subjects are AI servo, constantly updating the focal point or AI focus which locks and doesn't refocus constantly, when you move the field of view, to move her off center after the initial eye focusing done as long as holder keeps shutter button half down.

I looked for movement and they don't look like that, lol, I'm an expert on those types. These look like focus failure. Hope this helps

Rufus280

JohnGalt_ny wrote: »

Thanks.

No tripod Rufus. All handheld.
I agree 1/30 is slow but I got the next three sharp with the same SS and I shoot all day at 200 .
Go figure.

Then the next three were pure luck. 1/30 is far below hand held limits even taking precautions (holding your breath, leaning on something, etc). You can't possibly claim that 3 were good and complain about the 4th shooting this far below limits. Your pulse, breathing, muscle condition, etc, all come into play at this level. The confusing part is this was on your "bright light" example. Why would you shoot at 1/30 in a bright light situation?

Also, on the 1/200 examples, everything is blurred, suggesting that it's not a focusing issue, but more of a shutter speed issue. Of course your could have a AF issue, but I'd do a lot more testing before I'd jump to that conclusion.

I would suggest investing in a tripod and loosing the IS, then do some test shots.

kdog

If you're serious about getting help with this problem, we need access to the full resolution images, with the full EXIF information intact.

Art Scott

kdog wrote: »

If you're serious about getting help with this problem, we need access to the full resolution images, with the full EXIF information intact.

agree

Also it could be in your shooting style...photography is a lot like shooting firearms or even archery:
1 - never hold your breath that tenses the muscles
2- never shoot on the inhale..that makes your weapon fire on the rise
3- always shoot on the exhale - it is relaxed and adds accuracy....
4- breathe thru nose this is also more relaxed...same way you breathe when meditating....
this is how I was taught to shoot firearms, archery and even my cameras back in the dark ages...

Quincy T

John,

If you use a burst, it's likely you could get one sharp image out of a series of images simply because of the FPS on the 7D. It's unlikely to be tack sharp, but you can certainly get one decent image at 1/30 if you're using continuous shooting on High. That might be why you get one image that turns out well, and several others that don't.

Like kdog said, though, we need more info.

Bilsen

Thanks all. The full res images are huge in RAW. Let me figure out how to make them available.

puzzledpaul

IS having time to settle?
Have you tried similar shots with servo?

pp

Overfocused

JohnGalt_ny wrote: »

I have a problem that's making me nuts (nuttier??) and I could use advice from you people

The next two of this set were sharp with what sould be my sharpest lens.

The first one is just completely off focus... was that door in very dim light? You could just be triggering the shutter when your camera is trying to re-focus and hunting for its target.

The second picture is 1/30th of a second with a 70-200mm lens. If you're not using IS, its going to be difficult to hand hold at 1/30th of a second. If it is with IS and you're just throwing the lens up and snapping a picture, you'd need to wait a small moment for the IS to stabilize after throwing the lens up. And, how it is 40mm? Did you mean 140mm?

Rufus280 wrote: »

Also, on the 1/200 examples, everything is blurred, suggesting that it's not a focusing issue, but more of a shutter speed issue. Of course your could have a AF issue, but I'd do a lot more testing before I'd jump to that conclusion.

The 1/200th shots are entirely focus-blurred... or did you mean the 70-200 shot?

Art Scott

JohnGalt_ny wrote: »

Thanks all. The full res images are huge in RAW. Let me figure out how to make them available.

Use the image link (yellow box with mtn in it) and link to the images on your Zen site....at medium or large resolution....that would work perfectly

kdog

Doesn't need to be raw. A straight JPG conversion is fine. But FULL SIZE resolution shots with EXIF, please. No resizing at all. Often by looking closely at the blur, you can tell if it's from motion or being out of focus. If you like, you can email them to me and I'll host them on Smugmug. PM me if you're interested and I'll send you my email address.

divamum

All good advice here, John. I will say that when I get shots in sequence where the first isn't dead on and the rest are, it is a much more minor variant than you're demonstrating above; I shoot very shallow dof as a rule, so it's often just a case of missed focus rather than completely OOF as above.

My money is on the IS not having a second to settle - that's the only thing I can think of that would make two back-to-back shots THAT different on different lenses and cameras.

Hackbone

Can you do a quick outside test by taping a newspaper to a flat wall and then taking several exposures hand held and several with a tripod and examine them. Are you having the same problem with the hand held and the tripod ones?

anonymouscuban

John,

I'm gonna say it's lens flare in the first one. You can even see the flare spot just above her head in both shots. I made a thread the other day regarding this same issue. I have the exact same problem and I am almost positive it's due to flare. I only have this problem when shooting scenes where either natural light or flash is hitting my lens. I think the sharp shots you get is because you've adjusted the position of the camera slightly enough to reduce the flare. The 3rd one I think is shutter speed.

Demian

Lens flare would hurt the contrast, but I don't think it would account for such a huge difference in sharpness, especially when the flare is present in both shots.

John, take a look at some of your fuzzy pics at 100%. If the small details have an elliptical shape to them, your lack of sharpness is from camera shake. If the blur is equal in all directions, it's likely a focusing problem.

anonymouscuban

Demian wrote: »

Lens flare would hurt the contrast, but I don't think it would account for such a huge difference in sharpness, especially when the flare is present in both shots.

John, take a look at some of your fuzzy pics at 100%. If the small details have an elliptical shape to them, your lack of sharpness is from camera shake. If the blur is equal in all directions, it's likely a focusing problem.

Can you explain or show an example of what you mean by an "elliptical shape"?

Bilsen

Thanks everyone. That's a lot of good ideas I need to try.

Kdog, let me see if I can show the full jpgs without imposing on you. Otherwise, I'll take your offer.

Demian

anonymouscuban wrote: »

Can you explain or show an example of what you mean by an "elliptical shape"?

Sure thing. Two slightly unsharp images at 25%:

A

B


And then again at 100%

A

B


Aaaand at 400%



A was shot with a low shutter speed. If you look closely, you'll notice that high contrast details (the letters and the dots) elongate on the axis the camera was moving.

With B, which was shot at a high shutter speed but slightly OOF, the high contrast details blur equally in all directions.

novicesnapper

Wow, what a great teaching thread this is turning out to be. I was rather suspecting that in that narrow doorway, some of the focus points grabbed the edges and confused the camera. Any kind of movement and the camera would freak out looking for the "right" points to focus with. May be all wet on this though lol.

Bilsen

Whew, a lot to,absorb.

Thanks everyone, I'llmbe re-reading all this tomorrow and then getting to work.

wave01

Quick rule of thumb is to shoot your focal length ie 100m lens shoot at a 1/100, IS should help but to be honest at slow speeds then you would be advised to use a tripod. i would try it and i think it will sort the problem out. turn off IS as this can introduce shake as IS can get fooled when using a tripod

divamum

Wave, that was a good rule of thumb for film, but I've found for myself - I move around a lot when I shoot and don't have super-steady hands anyway - with crop sensor cameras that 1/1.5xFL or even 1/2xFL is more reliable, especially with the pixel-dense sensors on many cameras. For the 7d this made a big difference in whether or not there was any visible camera shake. YMMV, but it's worked for me...

John, question asked above which I wondered too - why would you want 1/30 in that kind of bright light, when I think you were also using flash?

anonymouscuban

divamum wrote: »

John, question asked above which I wondered too - why would you want 1/30 in that kind of bright light, when I think you were also using flash?

I bet he was shooting aperture priority and the camera decided 1/30th was a good shutter for the overall scene. Is why I stopped shooting in this mode outdoors with flash.

divamum

anonymouscuban wrote: »

I bet he was shooting aperture priority and the camera decided 1/30th was a good shutter for the overall scene. Is why I stopped shooting in this mode outdoors with flash.

My guess too, although I know he has mentioneed in the past he shoots manual .

Your reasons above why I also avoid Av + flash - I just don't have nearly enough control over things. I don't use auto ISO with flash, either.