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ABC News used my picture without permission
kdog
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I did a TFCD shoot some months back for a fitness guru and blogger named Cassey, and this was one of the shots.
She sent me this link the other day to an ABC News video. Check out the opening shot.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/youtube-making-people-rich/story?id=17104798#.UEKM7eOe5qY
And no, I got no credit, and no permission, nothing. Do I care? Nope. Sure, I would have preferred a photo credit. But it's not worth making a big deal over. I gave the photos to Cassey to use as she liked, and as far as I'm concerned, this is fair usage.
Oh, and guess what? Now I'm doing some paid commercial work for her. What goes around comes around I guess. :deal
Cheers,
-joel
She sent me this link the other day to an ABC News video. Check out the opening shot.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/youtube-making-people-rich/story?id=17104798#.UEKM7eOe5qY
And no, I got no credit, and no permission, nothing. Do I care? Nope. Sure, I would have preferred a photo credit. But it's not worth making a big deal over. I gave the photos to Cassey to use as she liked, and as far as I'm concerned, this is fair usage.
Oh, and guess what? Now I'm doing some paid commercial work for her. What goes around comes around I guess. :deal
Cheers,
-joel
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And I bet 100 hopefulls will read this and use it as an excuse to give their work away because of the 1 in 10,000 times this strategy has worked. Giving work away to models then thinking they will come back and pay for more work is a giant leap of faith but nice to see you found one of the few loyal people who will give back some of what they got. Look after this girl, she is a rare one indeed.
At least this is nice to read instead of the usual " I slathered my shots all over the internet and now I'm all bent and twisted because someone used them without my permission and I'm going to carry on like I have been mortally wounded by it and want a Million bux compensation" type deals we read weekly.
Why the hell people have an incessant need to put pics on the net for no particular reason and then get so upset because someone uses them is beyond me.
I had some sleezy little germ not only steal my pics some years ago, he stole my whole damn business site. Just changed the name and details but didn't even remember that on one page. He wasn't far from me and when I rang him about it he was a real smart little tosser and said because he changed some words it was now his site and the pics were public domain.
Not only did he use the pics, he hotlinked them.
Big Mistake.
I found some very unsavory pics, swapped the URL of some of the pics on my site and then had a few friends write complaints messages screaming blue murder to his ISP. The entire site disappeared in a night and It never reappeared again.
Needless to say the clown and his " Business" disappeared almost as quick.
One assumes the point of tfcd was to give her promotional usage for her career, which this clearly is. So, no issue.
Well, if you gave her the photos carte blanche to *use as she liked*, then there is no expectation of payment or credit from a third party that she allowed to use the photos- thus no problem.
The poster in the other thread didn't extend unlimited usage to his friend- and this is borne out by the friend going out of her way to give the magazine the copyright information on the photos- which the magazine then ignored.
Two very different scenarios.
Sam
Good call on the image usage as well. I mean seriously why would a model agree to a TFP session is she couldn't use the images to promote herself? Would the photographer?
So yeah, I'm still at the stage where I'm developing my skills and portfolio. I've done a ton of TFCD to get where I'm at and pleased with my progress. Now a bit of money is starting to trickle in and I can be more selective in my trades. Some day free shoots may be as unthinkable to me as it is to you. But for now, it's one step at a time and I'm grateful for gals like Cassey that I've had the opportunity to work with. One step at a time.
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I don't understand this mindset at all. The other gentleman was PAID for his work, by a friend no less! He agreed to do a job for a price, did it and got his compensation. It's done. Frankly I have no idea what the agreement was between that gentleman and his friend to know if any agreement was violated and neither do you because those details weren't given. Did he have something in his agreement that said specifically that electronically delivered images can't be submitted to magazines for publication? And why would he? If you buy a car, and decide to charge somebody for a ride to the airport, does the car manufacturer come after you for a cut? That photographer is making noises like he was harmed in some way -- folks making money of his hard work! I don't see it. He agreed to do a job for a certain fee and he did it. The customer bought those images and can do as they see fit. Anybody that has to follow every picture they ever took to make sure their customers (much less friends) aren't unduly benefiting from them has way too much free time on their hands. Not to mention it's bad karma.
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Thanks, Sam. Absolutely. It's good for everybody.
BTW, there's also one of Cassey's pictures from that shoot on page 26 of the July/August issue of Fitness Magazine. I didn't make a big deal of it because they cropped one of my shots and turned it into a headshot. Disappointing, yes. But I'm still not calling my lawyer over it.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
I'd still try to call or contact the magazine editor. It shows they liked your work enough to publish and not take their own photo. Like I suggested in the other thread, it can open doors. I'm not suggesting you get money for that shot, but the next one in that magazine you very well could. What if that shot had been on the cover?
..BTW very nice work!!
Good old Sid.
Thanks jww! That's really not a bad idea at all. Couldn't hurt.
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Most welcome! I always try and look for a positive result. From the few shots I saw, you're really really good! I am sure they would love to see some more work from you. ...just never know!
I think I misread/Misunderstood your initial post.
I'd like to put that down to having shot 2000 kids in the last week and printed photo packages for them but the cause is more likely to be the fact I'm just dense a lot of the time.
Having confidence in your work is a HUGE factor in getting more work. Hopefully the realisation has now set in for you that yes you are " good enough" and people aren't just saying things to be nice. Took me some time to work that out when I was starting off in a few different things.
I still do TFP shoots for wanna be models just to keep my hand in. A lot of the time it's frustrating dealing with the brainless bimbos and then you meet a girl who is intelligent, gracious and just a plain nice person and it makes it all worth while. I get to enjoy a little ego trip by being able to slingshot them a ways with connections I have and just pointing them in the right direction.
I like your comment about hot Chicks. To me this one is indeed hot. Her breasts are real.
If there is one thing that puts me off shooting with a girl it's fake tits. When I do look for someone to shoot with and put up a casting on a site, I specifically say I want to only work with girls with natural chests.
Apart from being a strange bloke that does not like Big boobs or find them in the least bit attractive, I fully believe in the breast to brain inverse proportion theory.
Anyway, you have some real nice shots there and hopefully your collaboration will be successful in it's intended purpose of getting you both more work.
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Not particularly, Jeff. Her palm is dyed red from smearing spray-on suntan all over her body. Thanks for asking though.
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Yep that would be the color ,worth a touch of PS . Good work
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Thank, Jeff! That's actually a real tricky touchup. I tried for a few minutes and decided there was no way I could do a decent job on it. You're not supposed to be looking at her palms anyway. :giggle
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That was my point
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Your comments above reflect your ignorance of US copyright and licensing laws.
I think, esp if you are trying to break into the business of photography, it would be well worth your time to educate yourself about copyright and licensing .
Then, once you are aware of how copyright and licensing laws work, you are free to either protect your copyright , or to just let anyone take your photos and use them to make money for themselves.
Whatever decisions you make in running your business, should be made with full knowledge , not with notions that you just pull out of the air.
Now that other gentleman's lawyer suggested he drop the issue. So if you have strong feelings on the matter, I suggest you go do it in his thread. I'm sure he'd love to have you.
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Well, what I know is what you wrote, and what you wrote does not reflect even a rudimentary understanding of copyright law and licensing.
You did make the following two statements.
"The other gentleman was PAID for his work, by a friend no less! He agreed to do a job for a price, did it and got his compensation. It's done. "
and
"The way I see it is that you took the pictures for a friend, got paid for them and gave him the images. In absence of any other agreements, I don't see why they wouldn't use them in any way they see fit. "
If you were educated in copyright law, you would know that even though you have paid a photographer to take a photo, you don't then own the copyright to the photos the photographer took. The photographer still owns the copyright and it is up to him how you can use the photos ( this is the licensing part).
And your statement " In the absence of any other agreements I don't see why they wouldn't use them any way they see fit" is just flat out wrong.
The default of copyright law is that in the absence of any other agreement, the photos can NOT be used without express permission from the photographer.
EVen portrait photographers maintain the copyright on the portraits they take, which is why, when you bring a family portrait taken by a studio such as Olan Mills to Walmart (or wherever ) in order to get copies made, they will not do it unless you can show them that you have permission from the copyright holder, which is the photographer who took the portrait.
Disneyworld does this too, when you use their photopass, you pay to have their park photographers take photos of you at different areas of the park. When you receive your CD of images from Disney, they include a copyright notice that allows you to have copies made of the photos from any photo processing place you want.
Again you stated:
"He agreed to do a job for a certain fee and he did it. The customer bought those images and can do as they see fit."
And again, this is just not true. The customer can hang the prints on their wall, give them out to friends, and enjoy their own personal use of the photos, but they certainly cannot license them to a business to use in an ad, or sell the use of them to newspapers or magazines. Legally, that is.
Of course you don't, but still , if you're in the business at all, it really is to your benefit to know and understand the copyright laws, especially if you are giving advice to other people.
I don't know whether you're completely clueless or just being argumentative. A lot of smart people have already chimed in on this thread and didn't misinterpret my remarks, so I'm assuming the issue is squarely with you. Therefore, once more I will try to make you understand. I will talk slowly, so please try to follow along this time.
I know FULL WELL who owns the copyright on the photos taken. I am NOT talking about copyright protection. I am talking about MY OWN PHILOSOPHY of dealing with clients and friends and what is morally right and wrong. My opinions only. I would NEVER think of causing trouble for a friend whose wedding I shot. In fact, I would most likely have shot the wedding for free and called it a gift, as I've done in the past. But to start causing trouble because the bride wanted to see her picture in a magazine? Personally, I don't understand that mindset. In my own case, I gave images to use to Cassey to use as she saw fit. She's published in magazines and on ABC News. Good on her! Could I sue her ass, the magazine and who know who else? Sure! Would I? Hell no.
Nor am I the kind of person who files trespassing charges against someone who walks across the corner of my grass. I am a free-thinking individual who doesn't need the government OR YOU to tell me what I can do and not do with my pictures. Should I choose to enforce my copyrights the option is always there. I just don't feel like I have to use it in every case and certainly not in either of the two cases in question.
Bottom line: Just because you have a LEGAL RIGHT to something, that doesn't mean you have to exercise it.
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Seems to me it's a typical maligned forum mentality people have.
It happens across every subject on the net. It's a whole bunch of parroted ideals and pseudo rules and methodology's that those with an education based on what they read rather than experience have.
Without exception, most of theses theroys are totally and utterly impractical in the real world and would loose you far more than you gained and have you seen to be a total Schmuck.
Well said.
All this over the top copyright stuff is starting to grate my nerves with the over the top levels of stupidity people take it to. Half the time people bitch about nothing and the other half they bring the problems on themselves.
If people want to be tight arsed, mean spirited and take the value of what they produce way too seriously, I pitty them,. they are going to be spending way too much time worrying about crap that will be a total hand brake and anchor to their progress in any and every pursuit.
I have done loads of Model shoots like this and done it on a mutually beneficial basis which was what this was. The model got pics in return for her time she could use to gain paid work or other benefit and the shooter got the same.
Everyone won, everyone gained. Should be a lot more of it.
The net is a great learning tool but unfortunately there are a lot of tools who sput garbage and impractical crap. It gets repeated by other armchair experts and those that don't have any practical experience to see it for the rubbish it is start thinking it's fact.
Those of us who do live, work and understand the real world get a chuckle till people start thinking they know what's right when they prove they don't.
The way some people carry on here, they would be insisting their own mothers get releases to get a reprint done of a pic of their own kids they gave their mums for Christmas!
Joel,
There are a lot of smart people who aren't informed about copyright law.
But you did talk about it - you basically represented - twice in direct statements and also in a long rambling example about buying a car- that a customer owns the copyright by way of paying the photographer for the photos. This is not true, and in fact is a common misconception.
Unless you were deliberately making false statements for the fun of it, those statements led me to believe you didn't understand that aspect of copyright law.
[/QUOTE]
And I don't disagree with that philosophy. I am just correcting your mis-statements, so that others reading them do not also become misinformed about the law.
Haha! Calm down. No one including me has told you what to do with your pictures!
(Although it IS in your best interest to know that should you use a photo of someone for advertising without a model release, they can sue you, and the government can take a big chunk of money from you for doing so- so yeah, the government CAN tell you what you can do with your pictures! But of course, you already knew that and were just being dramatic, right?)
I totally agree, but that does not negate the point that you should be knowledgeable about your legal rights, so that you can make INFORMED decisions !
I wish you well.
Yes, this is a win-win situation.
My comments here have nothing to do with Joel's model shoot.
Joel carried this thread over from another thread- I am referring to the erroneous comments he made on the previous thread. Sorry for the confusion.
Take care.
You corrected nothing. Look at the title of this thread. ABC News used my picture without permission. What part of MY PICTURE and WITHOUT PERMISSION do you not understand? You've gone out of your way to misinterpret this entire thread and are simply being argumentative. Go away.
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Thank you!!!
Link to my Smugmug site
Joel,
I'm going to cut you some slack here, and not take offense at your rudeness, because I assume you are very young, without much experience, and that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to protect an ego that is way too large and fragile to allow you to admit that you posted erroneous statements about copyright.
My posts to you are very clear, and use your own direct quotes, so there is no question
about what I am responding to, despite your transparent attempts to deliberately 'misunderstand'.
I said very early on ( in post #4, go back and read it) that I had no argument with your situation with ABC news, but that it was a very different situation from the OP's situation in the "Innocent Infringer" thread, which you were comparing it to.
(Or did you already 'forget' that you started this thread as a result of comparing your situation to the OP of that thread?)
So take a few weeks, calm down, grow up, and then come back and re-read the thread, and maybe you will take the opportunity to learn a little something about copyright law.
Knowledge is your friend, Joel. Don't ever be afraid of making mistakes, or of learning something new!
Take care~
Gosh, thanks!! :lol4
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I thought that was pretty obvious.
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