T4i vs. 60D which one for next camera

jenniferann

I am ready to move up to my next camera, I have been using the XTi for 4 years now and have been pretty happy with it. I really want something that handles low light photography better, that was the one thing I did not care for in the XTi, I could not push the ISO up without get in a lot of noise.
I have narrowed my search to the 60D and the T4i, I am wondering what you all think would be the best upgrade for me?
I am a second shooter at weddings, do landscape and macro photography too.
I do not want to spend more than $1000 - $1500 max.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts, thanks.

jenniferann

Anyone? I really would like some input.
Also, what happened to the "reviews" Section, where you could read tons of reviews on cameras, lenses, etc? It has been a while since I was on the site and it looks so different.

ziggy53

Lots of folks are busy on Thanksgiving with family stuff.

I recommend looking at the Canon 7D. It's within your price range (currently $1400USD, after instant savings) and available at both Adorama and B&H.

Compared to the Canon 60D it has the following major benefits for wedding photography:

A more advanced, and potentially better, autofocus section. This can mean more "keepers", as it reduces OOF shots. Nothing kills a shot faster than lack of accurate focus. Also 19 cross-type AF points, vs 9 on the 60D.

A 100% viewfinder, vs 96% viewfinder. With the 7D you don't guess the coverage and then chiimp to see if you got what you thought you were shooting.

2 - Digic 4 image processors. This is part of what allows the 7D to have potentially better AF, compared to the 60D. One of the processors is dedicated to AF and metering functions, while the other handles the "after acquisition" chores. This means faster overall performance and handling.

divamum

Jennifer, there has never been a reviews section here as such - are you sure you're not confusing it with fredmiranda.com?

I also think the 7d would be your best bet, and at current prices is within your budget (also check out refurbs via Canon and Adorama et al). It's a fabulous all-rounder camera.

jgoetz4

T4i vs. 60D which one for next camera
Here's where you need to go
http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subCategory_10051_10051_-1_29252#sfmsg_-7890|0|0
Have a good evening
Jim...

ian408

You can find book and gear reviews here.

I'd go with the 7D as well. The 7D is definitely a step up.

jenniferann

Thank you everyone, I am a bit nervous about buying a refurbished camera. Has anyone done this? I am just afraid it would have some issues or not work correctly. It would be much more cost effective, though.

As for the review section, it was Fred Miranda I was thinking of, thanks for jarring my memory, it has Ben a while!

jenniferann

Hi Ziggy,
Thanks for your reply. I have a question for you. I went and read some reviews on Fred Miranda.com and I see a bunch of people have negative comments about noise and post processing. Have you any experience or knowledge of this? I know there are always negative comments about something, but this is one of the reasons I am upgrading. I also very much enjoy working in PS editing and tweaking my photos, and they are saying the photos "fall apart" with post processing. I m seriously considering this camera (7d).
Thank you,
Jenn

ziggy53 wrote: »

Lots of folks are busy on Thanksgiving with family stuff.

I recommend looking at the Canon 7D. It's within your price range (currently $1400USD, after instant savings) and available at both Adorama and B&H.

Compared to the Canon 60D it has the following major benefits for wedding photography:

A more advanced, and potentially better, autofocus section. This can mean more "keepers", as it reduces OOF shots. Nothing kills a shot faster than lack of accurate focus. Also 19 cross-type AF points, vs 9 on the 60D.

A 100% viewfinder, vs 96% viewfinder. With the 7D you don't guess the coverage and then chiimp to see if you got what you thought you were shooting.

2 - Digic 4 image processors. This is part of what allows the 7D to have potentially better AF, compared to the 60D. One of the processors is dedicated to AF and metering functions, while the other handles the "after acquisition" chores. This means faster overall performance and handling.

jgoetz4

T4i vs. 60D which one for next camera

jenniferann wrote: »

Thank you everyone, I am a bit nervous about buying a refurbished camera. Has anyone done this? I am just afraid it would have some issues or not work correctly. It would be much more cost effective, though.

As for the review section, it was Fred Miranda I was thinking of, thanks for jarring my memory, it has Ben a while!

Good Evening Jennifer,
I have bought refurbished items from both Canon and Sony since 1995. I still use a refurbed Sony Hi-8 camcorder that I purchased back in 1998. I purchased a refurbed 5D2 a few months ago, and sent it back 2 weeks later because of a severe banding issue. When I got it back, the difference was like night and day. Only time I have returned a product for servicing while under warranty. I just purchased the refurbed 7D w/ the 28-135mm lens. Hope that helps
Have a good night
Jim...

ziggy53

jenniferann wrote: »

Hi Ziggy,
Thanks for your reply. I have a question for you. I went and read some reviews on Fred Miranda.com and I see a bunch of people have negative comments about noise and post processing. Have you any experience or knowledge of this? I know there are always negative comments about something, but this is one of the reasons I am upgrading. I also very much enjoy working in PS editing and tweaking my photos, and they are saying the photos "fall apart" with post processing. I m seriously considering this camera (7d).
Thank you,
Jenn

Hi Jenn, if this doesn't make sense, chalk it up to the flu (for a few days).

No, I don't own any of these models, but I'm a long time Canon user and I own a ridiculous number of their cameras.

The Canon 7D and 60D use a very similar, probably almost identical, imaging chip and image processor. Predictably, they are likewise very similar in image quality. Whatever you say about one is true for the other (regarding image quality). The Canon T4i/650D does use a different image processor, but appears to produce similar results because of the very similar imager. (I don't recommend the T4i/650D for weddings for other reasons.)

Most of the people complaining about excess noise have not exposed properly, boosting/brightening in post-production. If you use the camera within reasonable limits (like up to ISO 1600) and expose properly, you should be able to achieve very desirable results.

There are times during a wedding, like during the ceremony, when flash is not allowed, when ISO 1600 may not be sufficient, especially in a dark church. In those cases you may have to bump to ISO 3200, but then I recommend using Canon's DPP image processing software for best results. Eventually you will even want to upgrade to a FF body, like the 5D MKII or 5D MKIII, which do a very respectable ISO 3200 (and sometimes a very nice ISO 6400).

I additionally often follow up with Neat Image noise reduction software.

If you do use Adobe software, be sure to pull down the ACR contrast from default, as their default contrast setting is too high and can cause excess noise in the shadow regions. (At least this is true for PS CS2 and PS CS4, which I use.)

I use a combination of 5D MKII and 40D for my weddings, with the 5D MKII mostly for the ceremony and formals, and the 40D for everything else. I use electronic flash whenever I can, along with appropriate flash modifiers.

Lens choice is, obviously, an extremely important consideration too.

For high-profile, and higher paying gigs, you may wish to rent what you need, as you need it.

jenniferann

jgoetz4 wrote: »

Good Evening Jennifer,
I have bought refurbished items from both Canon and Sony since 1995. I still use a refurbed Sony Hi-8 camcorder that I purchased back in 1998. I purchased a refurbed 5D2 a few months ago, and sent it back 2 weeks later because of a severe banding issue. When I got it back, the difference was like night and day. Only time I have returned a product for servicing while under warranty. I just purchased the refurbed 7D w/ the 28-135mm lens. Hope that helps
Have a good night
Jim...

Thanks Jim , good to hear. How is that lens? I see I offered with the refurbished 7D. Is the lens a refurb too?

divamum

Complaints against the 7d are usually pixel-peepers who examine everything at 100% - the pixel density can be quite misleading and makes people thing the shots aren't any good. If you look at them at 50%, you get a much better sense of what prints might look like (100% on the 7d is like a 6ftx4ft print, iirc. Yes, FEET). Yes, it's true the 7d doesn't offer as clean an SOOC image as a full frame camera. Yes, it's true there can be some visible noise at high magnification. But if you shoot raw. expose correctly and use something like LR's noise reduction as needed, you can get entirely useable shots even at ISO 2000. Shoot raw, and you have tons of latitude with it; I've been extremely happy with mine (if you go to my blog and link to my performance shots portfolio, you'll see lots of those were high ISO shots taken with the 7d)

jenniferann

ziggy53 wrote: »

Hi Jenn, if this doesn't make sense, chalk it up to the flu (for a few days).

No, I don't own any of these models, but I'm a long time Canon user and I own a ridiculous number of their cameras.

The Canon 7D and 60D use a very similar, probably almost identical, imaging chip and image processor. Predictably, they are likewise very similar in image quality. Whatever you say about one is true for the other (regarding image quality). The Canon T4i/650D does use a different image processor, but appears to produce similar results because of the very similar imager. (I don't recommend the T4i/650D for weddings for other reasons.)

Most of the people complaining about excess noise have not exposed properly, boosting/brightening in post-production. If you use the camera within reasonable limits (like up to ISO 1600) and expose properly, you should be able to achieve very desirable results.

There are times during a wedding, like during the ceremony, when flash is not allowed, when ISO 1600 may not be sufficient, especially in a dark church. In those cases you may have to bump to ISO 3200, but then I recommend using Canon's DPP image processing software for best results. Eventually you will even want to upgrade to a FF body, like the 5D MKII or 5D MKIII, which do a very respectable ISO 3200 (and sometimes a very nice ISO 6400).

I additionally often follow up with Neat Image noise reduction software.

If you do use Adobe software, be sure to pull down the ACR contrast from default, as their default contrast setting is too high and can cause excess noise in the shadow regions. (At least this is true for PS CS2 and PS CS4, which I use.)

I use a combination of 5D MKII and 40D for my weddings, with the 5D MKII mostly for the ceremony and formals, and the 40D for everything else. I use electronic flash whenever I can, along with appropriate flash modifiers.

Lens choice is, obviously, an extremely important consideration too.

For high-profile, and higher paying gigs, you may wish to rent what you need, as you need it.

Thanks Ziggy, sorry to hear about the flu, hope you feel better.
I think I do a good job of exposing, I shoot in manual most of the time, and most of my stuff does not need a ton of serious brightening. If the 7D and the 60D are quite similar, why go with the 7D other than the way it focuses? I am just curious. This will be a big upgrade for me, so I want to get it right.
As far as noise, I like to do late evening sunset shots, and like you said, the low light weddings.
I need to upgrade my main lens too, I am using a sigma 17-70mm, which I have been very happy with, and I love my canon 100-400, and my 100mm macro. What do you think of the 28-135mm that is offered with the 7D, worth it or not?
I appreciate any advice you may offer.
Take care, Jenn

divmedic4

Jenn, for advice I will say pay attention to the technical details Ziggy is giving you and take a look at some of the amazing results Diva has achieved with 7D. I can also tell you I made the jump to a 7D about 4 months ago. It is an awesome body but is also a high-end prosumer body which means there is definitely a learning curve when using it. IF you put in the time to truly learn it, especially the multiple AF option and the micro adjustment, you will love it. IMO, a lot of the bad stuff you see about the 7D is from people who expected to pick up this level of a camera and use it like a point and shoot or even a rebel series.

For the lenses, I use the 17-70 for my main lens and don't plan on changing it out until I can afford a 24-70 II. The Sigma, again IMO, is a much better lens than the 28-135. I hope this helps.

jgoetz4

T4i vs. 60D which one for next camera

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks Jim , good to hear. How is that lens? I see I offered with the refurbished 7D. Is the lens a refurb too?

Good Morning Jennifer,
I haven't used that lens in quite a while, but the last time I did use it, stopped down, it was very good. It's a good walk around lens on a ff camera. I already have a buyer interested in it for $225. It is refurbed. Hope that helps
Have a good day
Jim...

divamum

that's an ok lens, but not one I'd choose for any low light applications. the canon 17-55 2.8, 24-70 2.8 or even 24-105is would make more sense than that; 2.8 is definitely going to be your friend for weddings and portraits .....

ziggy53

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks Ziggy, sorry to hear about the flu, hope you feel better.
I think I do a good job of exposing, I shoot in manual most of the time, and most of my stuff does not need a ton of serious brightening. If the 7D and the 60D are quite similar, why go with the 7D other than the way it focuses? ...

Thanks for your concern.

The overall handling of the 7D is just better and faster, not to mention more configurable. Look at the performance comparisons of the Canon 60D vs 7D at Imaging Resource:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E60D/E60DA6.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E7D/E7DA6.HTM

For example, the single-point, full AF times for the 60D are 0.253 second, vs 0.131 second for the 7D. That's nearly twice as fast to focus.

Similarly, the buffer clearing metrics for the 60D are "22 seconds after 15 RAW files" vs "11 seconds after 22 RAW files" for the 7D. (This test was performed with different memory cards for each camera, so your results might vary a bit, but the 7D should still be faster overall).

While these are just a couple of the speed differences between these two cameras, the 7D is going to feel much more responsive to your wishes. (In very low light the 7D does seem to slow AF considerably, so very low-light AF should be more similar between these two bodies.)

jenniferann wrote: »

... I need to upgrade my main lens too, I am using a sigma 17-70mm, which I have been very happy with, and I love my canon 100-400, and my 100mm macro. What do you think of the 28-135mm that is offered with the 7D, worth it or not?
I appreciate any advice you may offer.
Take care, Jenn

For wedding use, I highly recommend the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. The constant aperture, f2.8, is fairly bright and the range covers a lot of what you need to cover, and image quality through the zoom range is very much in Canon "L" territory.

If that's too expensive, consider the Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II LD IF. While it doesn't have the edge and corner sharpness of the Canon 17-55mm, f2.8, it's still very good and you can find professionals using the lens.

I also recommend the Canon EF 50mm, f1.4 USM as very useful for ambient light/ceremony shots. A pretty economical lens, it lets in 4 times the light of an f2.8 lens, and 8 times the light of your Sigma 17-70mm, f2.8-f4 zoom (@ the 50mm setting). It's not a perfect lens, and has some halation used wide open, but for wedding work it's very suitable.

Depending on your location in the church, a longer focal length can be very useful, like the (choose one):

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM
Canon EF 100mm f/2 USM
Canon EF 135mm f/2 L USM

I use the Canon EF 135mm f/2 L USM and it's very "magical" in its image rendering. The other lenses, the 85mm, f1.8 and 100mm, f2, are not far behind in image quality, and much more economical.

For large venue (receptions) I use a Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM to help cover the larger area.

I am not a fan of the Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM. While it's not a horrible lens from an image quality perspective, the relatively slow apertures are not that suitable for wedding work.

Lenses with apertures f2.8 or larger will activate the center AF high-precision mode, and they are also faster to focus overall. The primary reason is the amount of light a large aperture lens transmits into the camera (improving sensitivity in low light) plus the larger "base" available for the electronic rangefinder component of the autofocus system.

jgoetz4

T4i vs. 60D which one for next camera

divamum wrote: »

that's an ok lens, but not one I'd choose for any low light applications. the canon 17-55 2.8, 24-70 2.8 or even 24-105is would make more sense than that; 2.8 is definitely going to be your friend for weddings and portraits .....

Good Morning,
For the price of that lens, just $120 more then the cost of the 7D alone, you can't beat it for a general, walk around lens on a ff camera. I already have a buyer interested in it for $225, making my purchase of the 7D even a better bargain
Have a good day
Jim...

jmphotocraft

"I really want something that handles low light photography better, that was the one thing I did not care for in the XTi"

You will see a nice improvement over the XTi with any of the latest 18mp Canon APS-C bodies, but if you really want a quantum leap, you should see if you can get yourself into a 5D Mark II somehow.

jenniferann

Thanks everyone, my head is spinning now! I am pretty good with reading manuals and technical stuff, so I am hoping the learning curve for the 7D will not be too high. I really want to take my photography to the next level, both wedding and all the stuff I like to do for myself. It would be nice to have a 1.4 or 1.8 lens in my arsenal, I will look into them as well.
Idid read something about flash and the 7D, my 580 EX II should work fine with this, correct?

jenniferann

Dumb question, will my lenses work on this camera? It say.s it takes the EF mount lenses, I think one of mine is an EF S.

jmphotocraft

7D will trigger the 580 EX II, and like all other Canon APS-C bodies, will work perfectly with EF-S lenses. Enjoy!

jgoetz4

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks everyone, my head is spinning now! I am pretty good with reading manuals and technical stuff, so I am hoping the learning curve for the 7D will not be too high. I really want to take my photography to the next level, both wedding and all the stuff I like to do for myself. It would be nice to have a 1.4 or 1.8 lens in my arsenal, I will look into them as well.
Idid read something about flash and the 7D, my 580 EX II should work fine with this, correct?

Good Morning Jennifer,
Canon just reduced their refurbed lenses 20% as of yesterday. Most of the good glass is out of stock at the moment, but should be replenished either today or tomorrow. Here is the link:
http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subCategory_10051_10051_-1_22751#
Not sure how long this sale will last.
Have a good day
Jim...

Brett1000

jenniferann wrote: »

Thanks everyone, my head is spinning now! I am pretty good with reading manuals and technical stuff, so I am hoping the learning curve for the 7D will not be too high. I really want to take my photography to the next level, both wedding and all the stuff I like to do for myself. It would be nice to have a 1.4 or 1.8 lens in my arsenal, I will look into them as well.
Idid read something about flash and the 7D, my 580 EX II should work fine with this, correct?

sure, the flash and EF-S lens work fine on a 7D and there are good deals out there
The 5D2 has really dropped in price and is better at low light weddings (if that's what you primarily shoot) however your EF-S lens would not fit

jenniferann

jgoetz4 wrote: »

Good Morning Jennifer,
Canon just reduced their refurbed lenses 20% as of yesterday. Most of the good glass is out of stock at the moment, but should be replenished either today or tomorrow. Here is the link:
http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subCategory_10051_10051_-1_22751#
Not sure how long this sale will last.
Have a good day
Jim...

Good Day Jim,

Thanks for all the advice, I see they are out of stock, I will continue to check back. I think I would like
to go with the 50mm 1.4 over the 1.8, is that a good choice? I would love to have a prime in my bag.
Jenn

divamum

Yes, definitely go with the 1.4 vs the 1.8 - the 1.8 is a GREAT lens for the money, but not terrific at focusing in low light (it can also be quite noisy when focusing, thus not great for weddings....)

ziggy53

divamum wrote: »

Yes, definitely go with the 1.4 vs the 1.8 - the 1.8 is a GREAT lens for the money, but not terrific at focusing in low light (it can also be quite noisy when focusing, thus not great for weddings....)

I have both lenses and that is my experience too.

jenniferann

One more question, is the 7D the newest in that "line" I know you all have said the 5D, but that is out of my price range,
if I get the 7D, that is pretty much the newest one out right now, correct? I am having a hard time finding a list
of all the cameras, newest out.

ziggy53

jenniferann wrote: »

One more question, is the 7D the newest in that "line" I know you all have said the 5D, but that is out of my price range,
if I get the 7D, that is pretty much the newest one out right now, correct? I am having a hard time finding a list
of all the cameras, newest out.

The Canon 7D defined a new line of bodies. So far, it's the only body to appear in that line. It is also the most advanced of all the Canon crop 1.6x/APS-C format bodies.

The only Canon bodies (arguably) above the 7D are the 5D series, 1D series and 1Ds series (although the 1Ds series appears to have terminated.)

Do be sure that you have the latest ver 2.0 firmware installed for the 7D, as some of the enhancements would probably come in handy.

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/standard_display/EOS7D_firmware

jmphotocraft

7D is the current flagship of Canon's APS-C line. www.canoneos.com. A replacement (7D Mark II) is rumored, but it has not been announced, so we can bet that one won't hit the stores until about next summer at the earliest. Or 2014, who knows. But any such camera will command a full retail price around $1800 for some time. So the current 7D is the biggest bang for your buck.

As for primes, if you are accustomed to shooting a 50mm prime on a 35mm film camera, you should consider the Canon 28/1.8 USM. This will give you an apparent angle of view of a 45mm lens on film, and it has silent focusing. A 50mm lens on APS-C is like 80mm on film, or portrait territory.

Brett1000

jmphotocraft wrote: »

7D is the current flagship of Canon's APS-C line. www.canoneos.com. A replacement (7D Mark II) is rumored, but it has not been announced, so we can bet that one won't hit the stores until about next summer at the earliest. Or 2014, who knows. But any such camera will command a full retail price around $1800 for some time. So the current 7D is the biggest bang for your buck.
.

the 60D has been on sale or on the CLP program for $640 which is a good "bang for the buck"