Focusing problems at basketball games

timberrattle

Help! My camera is a Canon D7 and lens is Canon 24-70 / 2.8. I'm shooting 1/500 with aperture 2.8 and ISO 1600. (set manually)

Shots actually look pretty good but I can't seem to get the camera to focus on the subject that I want it to.

AF mode is Al Servo. After that I'm confused. Manual talks about AF area Selection Modes.... Single-point, Zone AF, Auto select 19-point. Also talks about AF point-expansion.

Any ideal what would works best to get the camera to lock on and focus on the player in the center of my shots?

MDalby

Any sample shots you can share? DOF will be a problem at f/2.8 if you aren't real exact in your technique.

timberrattle

timberrattle

Any idea what is wrong with my attempt to direct link?

timberrattle

timberrattle

I was wanting the camera to focus on the player dribbling. Any ideas on what type of focusing I can use to get it to lock in and focus on the center of the shot.

JimKarczewski

You can set the camera to use the little joystick on back to select the AF point. However, I'm not 100% familiar with the 7D... So I can't say. For the 1Dx I've actually gone from point selection to zone selection... While it does me good a lot of the times, it's not perfect.... Honestly, you have to play around with various methods until you find one that works best for you. That's what I did. Hell, I used to have to shoot basketball with a 5DII using Center Point only which was a real pain in the ass because the center point was the most sensitive for focusing.

rolette

Suggest you start with single AF point + expansion points. On the 7D, it shouldn't matter which AF point you use, so pick the one that works for best composition.

In AI Servo, the camera AF will track whatever subject was under the selected AF point as long as you keep the shutter button half-pressed (assuming you are in a relatively default config here...) and you keep the AF point on your subject. This likely will take a little practice before you'll get good at keeping the AF point on target consistently.

When you are ready to take the shot, press the shutter button all the way down. If you let off the shutter button, then it will select a new target (whatever is under the AF point) when you start pressing it again.

With AI Servo, ideally you are tracking the subject/player a bit before the shot. Much better than just pressing the button at the moment you want the shot.

Jay

zSCOTTz

I use the single point focus on the 7D.

timberrattle

Thanks everyone!

Jay: That sounds good and I'll give it a try. I just got my new lens....Canon 70-200 2.8. I'll see what I can do.

petereoin

I single point AF focus with expansion for field sports.

I would suggest re-reading the manual again so you get a better understanding of AF and how your camera works.

mercphoto

timberrattle wrote: »

One problem is, nobody is at the center of that shot. The floor is, however.

xchangx

mercphoto wrote: »

One problem is, nobody is at the center of that shot. The floor is, however.

It looks like the ref is in focus.

mercphoto

xchangx wrote: »

It looks like the ref is in focus.

Good catch. And the ref is at about the very same distance as the part of the floor that is dead center in the shot. This is almost certainly operator error, not putting the subject on the focus point. This is what is hard about sports shooting, is giving the camera the correct thing to focus on. You have to be very deliberate about these things. There is so much to pay attention to in a very short period of time and its all moving very fast. You need to pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to your subject and where it is in relation to your focus points. And you need to pay attention to the very edges of your viewfinder, to know if you are cropping off heads, or feet, or flailing arms. And to know if something distracting entered the edge of a frame. And then to wait for the peak of motion. This isn't easy to pull off well.

jhefti

Assuming you are using a single AF point, the most common user error that would result in the focus problem in the above shot is not keeping a steady finger on the button. If you are tracking a subject, you need to keep the shutter halfway down consistently. If you take your finger off and reset, the camera will lock onto the field where the AF point is, which may not be the subject. If you then move the AF point over the subject, the camera will delay refocusing for a period of time, depending on the settings. (I am assuming the 7D has a user selectable delay, though I have never used a 7D.)

Basically, you just need to practice tracking and keeping the AF point on the subject. It's usually good to lock on the subject for a brief period before taking the shot, though most modern AF systems will lock the focus pretty fast. You'll also need to be able to tell when the focus tracking has lost the subject and you need to reset. For fast sports, this just takes time and practice. (My favorite exercise is shooting birds in flight using a single AF point.)

One problem that can occur in poor light is the inability of the camera to find enough contrast to focus. Try to put the AF point over a contrasty area--the number on the jersey, or ideally the face--and keep it there. Monochromatic uniforms, especially if they are dark, present a very poor image for the camera to focus on.

The good news is that there is nothing wrong with your camera!

jhefti

JimKarczewski wrote: »

You can set the camera to use the little joystick on back to select the AF point. However, I'm not 100% familiar with the 7D... So I can't say. For the 1Dx I've actually gone from point selection to zone selection... While it does me good a lot of the times, it's not perfect.... Honestly, you have to play around with various methods until you find one that works best for you. That's what I did. Hell, I used to have to shoot basketball with a 5DII using Center Point only which was a real pain in the ass because the center point was the most sensitive for focusing.

I've not found zone selection on any camera (including my X) to be better than single AF point mode. I've heard that using the face recognition feature and zone AF on the X works really well for subjects (=people) moving towards the camera, but I have not tried this. (One of the AP shooters I frequently sit next to really likes this feature.)

Basically, I've found that zone AF yields fewer totally blown shots, but also fewer perfectly focused shots.

What's your experience?

And I hear you on the 5D2, though that one center point seems to work quite well. Until I got my X, I sometimes preferred my 5D2 over my Mark IV for really low light shooting.

JimKarczewski

jhefti wrote: »

I've not found zone selection on any camera (including my X) to be better than single AF point mode. I've heard that using the face recognition feature and zone AF on the X works really well for subjects (=people) moving towards the camera, but I have not tried this. (One of the AP shooters I frequently sit next to really likes this feature.)

Basically, I've found that zone AF yields fewer totally blown shots, but also fewer perfectly focused shots.

What's your experience?

And I hear you on the 5D2, though that one center point seems to work quite well. Until I got my X, I sometimes preferred my 5D2 over my Mark IV for really low light shooting.

With Zone I'm getting a hell of a lot better success rate than I was with a single point + 4 surrounding (the one that looks like a plus sign) I haven't thought about the facial recognition, I keep forgetting the X has it and need to look into that.. I'll try it later this week and see if I get any better results. My success rates are pretty good in zone mode now, I'm getting at least 95% in focus when I want them, the ones I really miss are say a pass under the basket when I'm focused on someone out near the 3pt line, gets close to focusing in time but not quite fast enough. Could be operator error yet as well.

timberrattle

Ok, I learning, little by little but I am picking up some knowledge and understanding. I appreciate the help!

I have been reading that lack of contrast when trying to shot a moving target can be a problem. Several of my shots the ref was in perfect focus. Lots of contrast in his uniform. My camera doesn't seem to want to lock on to the white and orange uniforms. Maybe part of my problem?

Here's from my manual on Zone AF:

"The 19 points are divided into five zones for focusing . All the AF points in the selected zone are used for the automatic selection of the AF point. It makes achieving focus easier than with single-point AF or AF point expansion and it is effective for moving subjects. However, since it is inclined to focus the nearest subject, focusing a specific target is harder than with single-point AF or AF expansion.

Thoughts.....

JimKarczewski

Thoughts.. unfortunately that's where 19pt AF vs 61pt autofocusing will kick your ass, sorry to say. I only use the cross type sensors (not sure if that is an option on the 7D) which takes me from 61 down to 41AF points. With the zone, it's a pretty much 5 or 7 locations I can set the zone to look for focusing. When shooting vertical it's top, center. I don't shoot basketball horizontal much anymore.. lose too much of the subject when I do. I would guess on horizontal I'd stick to the center zone.... and switch between right and left depending on where the action moves and if I need to follow it without moving the camera.

JimKarczewski

I did realize too, tonight when I was looking at my settings.. My camera is set to use facial and color recognition. I had it set on, the setting isn't called that though.. Leave it to Canon to give it some weird name. Just like Nissan that calls a lower control arm some weird name. Must be something they love to do to confuse the hell out of us!

timberrattle

Ok Jim, I'll try center zone and see what I get. My daughter has a game this Thursday and I'll give it a try.

Facial and color recognition......I didn't even know I had that choice. Back to the manual to see what I can discover.

rolette

timberrattle wrote: »

Ok Jim, I'll try center zone and see what I get. My daughter has a game this Thursday and I'll give it a try.

Facial and color recognition......I didn't even know I had that choice. Back to the manual to see what I can discover.

You don't have that on your 7D. That's new/unique to the 1DX currently.

timberrattle

Thanks rolette. I didn't think I had seen that in the manual. I thought maybe I had just missed it.

JimKarczewski

timberrattle wrote: »

Thanks rolette. I didn't think I had seen that in the manual. I thought maybe I had just missed it.

Don't worry, I didn't even know I had it on my 1Dx. . I'm sure the new 7DII would probably have it, I would hope when it comes out eventually.

I think that is going to be my replacement for my 5DII, to have a 1Dx for FF and 7DII for cropped sports. Now if they would only add voice annotation to something other than a 1D line body I'd be in heaven.

73Rocks

timberrattle wrote: »

Help! My camera is a Canon D7 and lens is Canon 24-70 / 2.8. I'm shooting 1/500 with aperture 2.8 and ISO 1600. (set manually)

Shots actually look pretty good but I can't seem to get the camera to focus on the subject that I want it to.

AF mode is Al Servo. After that I'm confused. Manual talks about AF area Selection Modes.... Single-point, Zone AF, Auto select 19-point. Also talks about AF point-expansion.

Any ideal what would works best to get the camera to lock on and focus on the player in the center of my shots?

Being mainly a sports shooter I have always strived to get that “sharp as a tack” action shot. I use about the same gear as you (Canon 7D and a 70-200mm f2.8 IS) but I also do a few things differently. Most of my basketball shots are done in small high school gyms with maybe 4 – 6 feet of room under the basket to shoot so I use a 50mm f1.4 prime . . . so I don’t have to worry about messing with the zoom while tracking the action.

I do use single point focus in AI Servo too. But there are a couple of extra little tricks I use to get the sharpness I am looking for. If you go to your camera manual, starting on page 64, it tells you how to set either the standard style or a custom style bumping up or retarding any combination of Sharpness, Contrast, Color Saturation, and Color Tone. I have my Sharpness set at +6.

Another trick is to calibrate each lens to your camera. Seeing as I operate on a budget, sending the camera and my main 3 lenses into Canon for calibration wasn’t an option so I searched the “net” until I came across a “field expedient” way to accomplish the same thing. If you have an afternoon to mess with the settings, here is the link - http://www.prophotohome.com/lens-calibrating-a-dslr-is-easy-and-fun-dont-be-a-chicken-just-do-it-peter-gregg/ Go to page 211 of your manual to get to the calibration settings.

I hope this helps you out some.

jhefti

timberrattle wrote: »

Ok, I learning, little by little but I am picking up some knowledge and understanding. I appreciate the help!

I have been reading that lack of contrast when trying to shot a moving target can be a problem. Several of my shots the ref was in perfect focus. Lots of contrast in his uniform. My camera doesn't seem to want to lock on to the white and orange uniforms. Maybe part of my problem?

Here's from my manual on Zone AF:

"The 19 points are divided into five zones for focusing . All the AF points in the selected zone are used for the automatic selection of the AF point. It makes achieving focus easier than with single-point AF or AF point expansion and it is effective for moving subjects. However, since it is inclined to focus the nearest subject, focusing a specific target is harder than with single-point AF or AF expansion.

Thoughts.....

The problem with zone AF in my experience is that it will lock on to the best contrast in the zone. You're right that the ref's jersey is very high contrast. Where I really see this happen is shooting a goalkeeper in soccer: the AF LOVES to lock on to the net behind him/her, and zone AF even on my X is problematic.

I haven't calculated my hit rate using zone vs single point on my X, but my sense is that single point is still better. Of course, a lot is based on one's ability to keep that one AF point on the subject. I suspect if I were shooting an unfamiliar sport, I might get better results with zone focusing.

mercphoto

John, what about single point with zone expansion? Initial lock on the single point, but allowed to follow the subject some distance into the adjacent focus points?

timberrattle

73rocks: That's interesting and will definitely give me something to try. I'll try bumping up the sharpness and see what happens.

I'm not familiar with calibrating a lens with the camera but I'll see what I can learn and will give that a try also. thanks!

jhefti: I'll give single point a try and see what kind of success I have. I'm definitely having a problem with the camera locking on to something other then what I'm wanting it to.

timberrattle

A question concerning single point. If a player is dribbling up court and I press the button down halfway and keep it on the subject and take the picture..........how much of the player/subject should be in focus?

Just the "one point" and no more? Or should the entire subject be in focus? Is the amount of the player in focus going to be dependent on the aperture setting?

jhefti

timberrattle wrote: »

73rocks: That's interesting and will definitely give me something to try. I'll try bumping up the sharpness and see what happens.

I'm not familiar with calibrating a lens with the camera but I'll see what I can learn and will give that a try also. thanks!

jhefti: I'll give single point a try and see what kind of success I have. I'm definitely having a problem with the camera locking on to something other then what I'm wanting it to.

Regarding bumping up the sharpening in camera, remember this is just a post processing treatment of the photo that has nothing to do with focus. You can always do this step later, in whatever editing software you use.

Regarding lens calibration, this is not often necessary. Before going to all the trouble to do it, take some simple non-moving shots of a detailed subject (words in print work well) using AF to see if the focus is good. If it is, it's unlikely that lens-camera calibration will help with sports shots. Most focusing issues in sports are user errors.

I've not had as much luck with any kind of zone AF or AF expansion as I have with just using a single AF point. Any kind of zone focusing requires the camera to make decisions about where the actual subject it. Thus, the focus is usually not as tack sharp as when the AF point is spot on the subject. At least, that is my experience.

jhefti

timberrattle wrote: »

A question concerning single point. If a player is dribbling up court and I press the button down halfway and keep it on the subject and take the picture..........how much of the player/subject should be in focus?

Just the "one point" and no more? Or should the entire subject be in focus? Is the amount of the player in focus going to be dependent on the aperture setting?

I think you are referring to the depth of field (DOF). If you are shooting with a wide aperture (say, f/2.8 or wider) and a long lens with the player fairly close to you, you'll find that it is not possible to get the entire player in focus if he/she is leaning forward while running. If you go for the biggest target and put the AF point over the jersey number, you'll often find that the face is not in focus. OTOH, if you have a lens like the 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 and are zoomed out, you'll have plenty of DOF. I usually try to put the AF point on the player's face, as I always want this in focus. If the shoes are a little soft, no one but a photographer will notice.