Animals for sale on smugmug?!

safaricat70

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is a copy of the letter that I've sent to smugmug & I wanted to get some other people's input/feedback on this subject. I myself am not happy with this...[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Hello[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I wanted to bring something to your attention that I don't know if you know about. Recently I did a search on "price lists" on smugmug & I came across several sites that are selling puppies!! This was a complete shock to me, especially since eBay recently decided to continue it's ban on internet auctions of live animals after receiving heavy criticism for even thinking about lifting the ban. I understand that smugmug is only a hosting service, however, isn't there a way to monitor what can be posted?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cruel, unregulated dog breeding is a huge and shameful problem in this country. Allowing animals to be sold over the Internet would only broaden the suffering of dogs bred in unregulated "puppy mills," where female dogs spend miserable lives in cramped, filthy cages producing litter after litter. Internet sales would create a bigger market for the sale of these puppies, which often are sick, too young to survive on their own and of dubious pedigree. Even hosting ads for animal adoption through shelters is a bad idea because it would be difficult to weed out impostors. And even if the sites say that they're NOT puppy mills, or that they're dogs are well taken care of, etc. it's too hard to tell if they're telling the truth or not.[/FONT]

I would appreciate your feedback on what, if anything, you can do about this situation. I feel this needs to be brought to the smugmug community's attention & so I am going to post this in the forums as well... just to see what everyone else thinks."

Andy

I'll look into it.

Did you email this to help@smugmug.com ?

safaricat70

Hi Andy,
I did. Was that the right address?

Andy

safaricat70 wrote:

Hi Andy,
I did. Was that the right address?

Yes.
Thanks.

Andy

Hi Stephanie,

I guess the problem lies in, "where would it stop?" If we were to tell them to take the photos down - then what's the next thing to go?

We're not commenting on the right or wrong on the issue here - but unless there's an absolute violation of our terms of service, there's very little we can do about it.

And btw - we love dogs here

safaricat70

Andy wrote:

Hi Stephanie,

I guess the problem lies in, "where would it stop?" If we were to tell them to take the photos down - then what's the next thing to go?

We're not commenting on the right or wrong on the issue here - but unless there's an absolute violation of our terms of service, there's very little we can do about it.

And btw - we love dogs here

Hi Andy,
Thanks for taking the time to look into this.

Just because there's nothing in the terms of service now doesn't mean a new "rule" can't be implemented due to this. All I'm concerned with is that smugmug may be contributing to the puppy mill problem by allowing questionable breeders to sell their puppies online. I would hope that smugmug would be somewhat concerned or at least question the well-being, condition, health, etc. of the puppies whose pictures are posted on their servers. Don't you wonder how they make it to their destination? Are they crated/shipped properly & expediently? Are they taken away from their mother too soon? What are the conditions they were born in? Anyone can post a photo of a big beautiful yard & say "this is where all my dogs live & are cared for", when in reality it may not even be their yard. Deception is a huge problem on the interent, as I'm sure we've all found out one way or another.

Please take a look at eBay's guidelines: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/wildlife.html.

While there is no specific mention of domestic animals, their guidelines covers the sale of ALL animals.

I know there are a lot of dog lovers here at smugmug & the dog in the link you provided isn't up for sale... these are: http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/495301 & not even by the person who owns the smugmug site!! That's somewhat questionable, wouldn't you say? And yes, they look so cute & adorable in their little outfits, but what does it look like behind the camera? What are their living conditions like? Deception. This is why I'm bringing this to your attention. People who make a living from selling the puppies from one mother who has more than 2-3 litters a year ususally aren't too concerned about the animals. They're business people & money is the bottom line.

Per the Humane Society's website: https://community.hsus.org/campaign/2005_PAWS3?
"The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) licenses and inspects puppy mills for violations of the Animal Welfare Act, and some states have laws to protect the animals. But puppy mills can get around USDA licensing requirements by selling directly to consumers, and many simply rely on the limited reach of the law—with so few inspectors and only minor fines in place, it's often easy for puppy mills to stay in business."

I'm not trying to grandstand here - just trying to educate you on what is out there & possibly on smugmug. There are actions you can & I hope will take. I don't know "what the next thing to go" would be, but this would be a step in the right direction.

Anson

Stephanie
Stephanie,

Thanks, for posting this matter, as the sale of animals/pets is a big nasty problem!
If anyone does not believe this to be the case, they need only visit their local humane society, take a good look around and on the way out, ask for the recent statistics regarding disgarded pets 'put down'/killed...the numbers are Outrageous!

The animals have ZERO say in the matter and the lions share of humans, who are involved in this pet trade, are no better than pimps!

Anything we can do to bring attention to this nasty Biz, is always good!

Stephanie,

Thanks again!


for a tiny taste of the continuing problem....
http://www.poodleclubsocal.com/beforeafter/

.
.

JimM

I think the best way to prevent the sale of animals this way is to not purchase them.

No one is going to have the time or the resources to police Smugmug or the Internet. If they are not posted on SM the breaders will just post them somewhere else. If people didn't buy the animals in this manner, then there would be no money in it. This is the best way to stop it.

SM does not participate in the sale of these animals, just the sharing of photos. Please leave SM alone on this.

safaricat70

JimM wrote:

I think the best way to prevent the sale of animals this way is to not purchase them.

No one is going to have the time or the resources to police Smugmug or the Internet. If they are not posted on SM the breaders will just post them somewhere else. If people didn't buy the animals in this manner, then there would be no money in it. This is the best way to stop it.

SM does not participate in the sale of these animals, just the sharing of photos. Please leave SM alone on this.

Hi Anson,
Thanks for your support!

Hi Jim,
While SM does not directly participate in the sale of these animals, they are in a way supporting it by hosting the pictures & advertisement of the sale of the animals. Unfortunately, simply telling people "don't purchase them" won't solve the problem. There are a lot of people who aren't educated on this subject. All they see is an adorable, cute puppie dressed up in a little pink outfit & their heart just melts. That's the problem. They don't see the conditions in which these animals were born into. Or the cages & filth in which their mother is kept during all the forced pregnancies & births of her numerous litters each year. Or the behavioral problems or physical illnesses these animals will have as they get older. These breeders are suckering in those people who aren't educated or who are into the latest "trend" in pets & taking advantage of that. They're out to make a profit any way they can. SM can help reduce the number of sales by making it a policy that the advertisement/sale of animals is prohibited. Anyone who doesn't abide by that policy has their site shut down. Period. And you're right, if they don't post their pictures on SM they probably will go elsewhere, but hopefully there would be concerned people in that other site's community who would bring it to the attention of others & the site's administrators just as I have done. One person CAN make a difference.

It's our duty as humans to speak for those who can't speak for themselves. I'm just trying to make a difference in some poor animal's life & educate those who don't know much about this issue. The internet is can be a very dangerous place for an animal. One way we, as a community/society, can help protect the animals is to have sites like SM, eBay, Ophoto, etc. realize that an animal's life/well-being is more important than the profit they will make from that site owner's annual dues.

All I'm asking is that SM do some research on this subject, then do a search on puppies/animals that are being advertised for sale on your servers & then make an educated decision to either change your policies to exclude the sale and/or advertisement of sale of animals or not. If you do decide to choose the latter, I would appreciate, as would some other members, an explanation as to why.

Thanks,
Stephanie

Sam

This is a tough one. While I am not as vehement as safaricat, I do agree with him.

I don't know if the account in question is simply sharing some photos of puppies that the account owners have for sale, or if they are using Smugmug as a sales tool. (That would make a big difference!) I just looked at the site. The account owner is charging the dog sellers to post on his account, so this is nothing more than a sales tool.

Selling medical marijuana is legal in California, can I set up a Smugmug account with photos to sell marijuana?

That said. I don't have any problem with putting my foot in my mouth, so here goes.

JimM posted: No one is going to have the time or the resources to police Smugmug or the Internet.

1. Smugmug doesn't need the time, people like safaricat will bring these issues up to Smugmug as they become aware of them.

If they are not posted on SM the breeders will just post them somewhere else.

2. Very poor argument. I don't sell crack just because someone else will do it.

Andy posted: I guess the problem lies in, "where would it stop?" If we were to tell them to take the photos down - then what's the next thing to go?

1. Again, I think poor argument. You already have a list of defined and implied items you will not allow, so you have already started.

We're not commenting on the right or wrong on the issue here - but unless there's an absolute violation of our terms of service, there's very little we can do about it.

2. The right and wrong of it IS THE ISSUE! If you feel that this is ok, then you would have no cause to remove it. If however you believe this isn't what Smugmug, and the photographic community wants, or that it is wrong, and do nothing, then that is a horse of a different color.

3. The terms of service state: Smugmug may terminate your account or your access to and use of the Services, with or without cause at any time and effective immediately, at Smugmug's sole discretion, for any reason.

The ball is still in your court.

And btw - we love dogs here

2. How much?

Oh, and Smugmug doesn't allow Nudity? I believe I saw unclothed dogs on that site!!!:):

Sam


Sam

Only when the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.
Cree Indian prophecy

DavidTO

I say lose the dogs.

DJ-S1

This site or any portion of this site may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Smugmug, inc. Any unauthorized use terminates the permission or license granted by Smugmug.

Case closed, IMO. The site in question is charging people to have their photos on Smugmug. I don't think that is allowed, is it?

Harryb

I went to the site and saw some crappy shots of some dogs. Apparantly you can gain access to the "breeders" of those dogs and buy one if you wish.

I don't see any evidence of the dogs being abused or any evidence of the "breeders" running puppy mills . I fail to see how this is an issue for Smugmug unless the terms or conditions or use are being violated.

Richard

DJ-S1 wrote:

Case closed, IMO. The site in question is charging people to have their photos on Smugmug. I don't think that is allowed, is it?

Nice catch! Simplifies everything.

safaricat70

Harryb wrote:

I went to the site and saw some crappy shots of some dogs. Apparantly you can gain access to the "breeders" of those dogs and buy one if you wish.

I don't see any evidence of the dogs being abused or any evidence of the "breeders" running puppy mills . I fail to see how this is an issue for Smugmug unless the terms or conditions or use are being violated.

Harry,
The breeders (or those posting for them) aren't going to SHOW the buyer the "behind the scenes" views. They're going to show the buyer what they want to see... cuteness, cleanliness, etc. The site is made with pink colors, multi-colored balloon fonts & adorable puppy shots. Why would anyone show you anything else? The breeders know they wouldn't sell one animal if the picture showed "the truth".

Please understand, I know there are some legitimate breeders out there who do breed within certain guidelines, who care for the mothers & pups, who ensure their health, who are registered with the AKC, etc. Unfortunately, puppy mill breeders give them a bad name & I'm sorry for that.

Harryb

safaricat70 wrote:

Harry,
The breeders (or those posting for them) aren't going to SHOW the buyer the "behind the scenes" views. They're going to show the buyer what they want to see... cuteness, cleanliness, etc. The site is made with pink colors, multi-colored balloon fonts & adorable puppy shots. Why would anyone show you anything else? The breeders know they wouldn't sell one animal if the picture showed "the truth".

Please understand, I know there are some legitimate breeders out there who do breed within certain guidelines, who care for the mothers & pups, who ensure their health, who are registered with the AKC, etc. Unfortunately, puppy mill breeders give them a bad name & I'm sorry for that.

Hey Stephanie,

First off I abhor puppy mills and detest those who abuse any living creature.

You are assuming that those who the smugmug subscriber refers an interested party to are running puppy mills. You are probably right also. However this does not change the fact that this is still an assumption. No one has any proof here that any animal has been abused.

I just don't feel that the subscriber's site can be shut down arbitrarily w/o some proof of wrong doing. If there's is some technical violation of the user agreement with Smugmug then that can be done but i don't see it. Also if Smugmug closes down the page w/o any proof of wrong doing and it later turns out that the assumption was incorrect then Smugmug could face consequences if the subscriber could demonstrate some resulting injury (i.e. loss of income).

Stef

DavidTO wrote:

I say lose the dogs.

My sentiments exactly.

An ethical and responsible breeder WILL NOT sell a dog to the first person that sends them a payment via PayPal or any other means. A real ethical and resposible breeder will screen the potnetial homes for their pets. I know, I went thru it after scanning breeders myself. I couldn't just hand them the money and take the dog home. I was lucky enough to find 2 great breeders, which I had to travel out of state for.

As far as I can tell, this site does go against the "rules" of smugmug. As stated on the first page, breeders PAY her to post the pictures. She is making a living off of smugmug and puppies.. Sad, really. Poor dogs!


http://forsalebyownerphotoads.smugmug.com/ Here is another link found on that site. It seems that everyone figured out they could make money off smugmug.

DoctorIt

Stef wrote:

http://forsalebyownerphotoads.smugmug.com/ Here is another link found on that site. It seems that everyone figured out they could make money off smugmug.

Wow, now that is a SM abuse!

safaricat70

Just curious, is this issue dead in the water at Smugmug or are you guys doing some research? Just because there's no longer any conversations going on in the forums, I don't want you to forget about it.

Thanks

safaricat70

Hi Andy & Co.
Would someone please comment on the status of this issue? Are you looking into it or just ignoring it, hoping it'll go away?

mercphoto

safaricat70 wrote:

Hi Andy & Co.
Would someone please comment on the status of this issue? Are you looking into it or just ignoring it, hoping it'll go away?

My two cents is that I agree that the practice of puppy mills is abhorable, but that Smugmug is not a policing agency. As long as terms of use have not been voilated I don't believe they should do anything about it. Andy's argument about where does it end is completely valid.

safaricat70

I just think it's really sad that there are people out there who choose to ignore issues like this & hide behind "they haven't violated the policies" as an excuse. Policies can be amended to include new rules, guidelines, etc. Policies are not written in stone.

If people want to sell puppies/animals on line using smugmug as a storefront, then I say that smugmug does have a part in this. By providing server space, they're providing an audience to the puppy mill breeders. eBay doesn't allow the sale of animals, why would you?! It's wouldn't be that hard to monitor, as mentioned before. You can rely on people in the smugmug community or do random searches yourself.

As for "not violating the policies", the woman who is posting pictures & selling puppies for a friend IS violating the policies. Her site should be removed.

Smugmug needs to amend their policies to state that the sale/advertisement of animals for sale is forbidden. Do your research on puppy mills, the way the breeders go about selling them via the internet, etc. BECOME EDUCATED and do what's right here!!

mercphoto

safaricat70 wrote:

I just think it's really sad that there are people out there who choose to ignore issues like this & hide behind "they haven't violated the policies" as an excuse.

I don't really need you telling me what I should think of as right or wrong. I would suggest you get off your moral high horse. And I stand by my statement that Smugmug is not the Police Department. They are not law enforcement. Nor should they be. For that matter, neither should eBay.

If puppy mills are that bad then work for legislation to make them illegal.

I also don't see anywhere in this thread where it has been proven that the SM site in question truly is a puppy mill with poor conditions, as opposed to a legitimate breeder. Or are you just assuming this is the case?

Andy

safaricat70 wrote:

I just think it's really sad that there are people out there who choose to ignore

Hello safaricat, please - nobody is ignoring you, or this thread. I can promise you that. We do have a business to run as well - and so please give some time. Thanks.

onethumb

safaricat70 wrote:

I just think it's really sad that there are people out there who choose to ignore issues like this & hide behind "they haven't violated the policies" as an excuse. Policies can be amended to include new rules, guidelines, etc. Policies are not written in stone.

No-one is ignoring you, and of course policies can be changed.

safaricat70 wrote:

If people want to sell puppies/animals on line using smugmug as a storefront, then I say that smugmug does have a part in this. By providing server space, they're providing an audience to the puppy mill breeders. eBay doesn't allow the sale of animals, why would you?! It's wouldn't be that hard to monitor, as mentioned before. You can rely on people in the smugmug community or do random searches yourself.

I would 100% agree with you except for one thing - eBay *is* a means of selling things. Their entire purpose is to act as a sales mechanism for buying and selling things.

smugmug doesn't facility the buying and selling of anything other than photographic prints and gifts.

It's not possible to use smugmug as a storefront for live puppies, kittens, or any other kinds of animals (or inanimate objects, for that matter). smugmug hosts photos.

safaricat70 wrote:

As for "not violating the policies", the woman who is posting pictures & selling puppies for a friend IS violating the policies. Her site should be removed.

What policy is she violating?

safaricat70 wrote:

Smugmug needs to amend their policies to state that the sale/advertisement of animals for sale is forbidden. Do your research on puppy mills, the way the breeders go about selling them via the internet, etc. BECOME EDUCATED and do what's right here!!

You won't find a bigger set of animal lovers than at smugmug. I personally have two rescue cats, have served as a foster home for nursing kittens and their mothers, and have a beautiful yellow lab. We have three dogs at the office. Prior to getting pregnant, my wife spent two years as a veterinary technician at the best hospital in the area.

We love animals.

However, smugmug isn't a storefront for non-photo items. We don't provide any mechanism for selling anything. We can't prohibit the sale of items on smugmug because it's just not possible to sell them in the first place.

I'm sorry, I wish we could help somehow, but it's just not possible. People can freely use smugmug to share any photos they want, including those of puppies.

If smugmug did become a sales mechanism at some point (we have zero plans to do so), I don't see how we could possibly be expected to weed out legitimate breeders, who should have a right to breed and sell their animals, and those who may be abusive or endangering their animals.

We've even given complimentary accounts to some animal shelters, rescue organizations, and adoption agencies which we feel good about. If we banned all photos related to animals or exchanging them, we'd have to ban them too - which would be a sad thing. There are lots of animals without homes out there that need our help to live happy lives.

Good luck with your quest, we're all huge animal lovers at smugmug. A friendly word of advice, though: Taking a hard-edge approach, full of accusation, isn't going to endear you or your cause to those you're trying to convince. Your plea happened to fall on receptive ears here, given our love of animals, but other companies might not be quite so receptive, even given a good cause.

Best wishes,

Don

JimM

Very nicely put Don!

safaricat70

It's not possible to use smugmug as a storefront for live puppies, kittens, or any other kinds of animals (or inanimate objects, for that matter). smugmug hosts photos.

It's advertising the sale of live animals. Not just posting cute pictures of puppies to share with everyone. The pictures are posted to SELL the puppies.

What policy is she violating?

LICENSE AND SITE ACCESS

This license does not include any resale or commercial use of this site or its contents. This site or any portion of this site may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Smugmug, inc. Any unauthorized use terminates the permission or license granted by Smugmug.

One of the sites in question is clearly reselling her site:
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/495301
The first line in her bio says:
"Puppies in this Photo Album belong to other breeders that pay me for a space to advertise their puppies."

Doesn't that fall under the "may not be resold" category? I apologize if I have misinterpreted it.

I'm sorry, I wish we could help somehow, but it's just not possible. People can freely use smugmug to share any photos they want, including those of puppies.

Well I'm sorry too. I understand that this is a photo-sharing site, but I didn't realize that it was a place to advertise non-photo items for sale either.

We've even given complimentary accounts to some animal shelters, rescue organizations, and adoption agencies which we feel good about.

That's awesome... I hope you continue to do that for those organizations.

friendly word of advice, though: Taking a hard-edge approach, full of accusation, isn't going to endear you or your cause to those you're trying to convince.

I don't feel I took a hard-edge approach. There was no name calling, no accusations. By stating that people need to become educated about this issue is a fact. If someone is going to counter-point someone else, they need to know what they're talking about rather than just disagree. I understand & accept the fact that there are legitimate breeders out there (I've stated that in a previous post) & I feel sorry for them because these illegitimate breeders have given them a bad name. And thank you for looking into the matter. I hope it's not a closed book at this point. I appreciate that my request didn't fall on "deaf ears" here at SM. And true, this same topic may not go over so well at other companies, I'm not too concerned with that because this doesn't concern them right now... it concerns smugmug. I'll cross that bridge if/when I get to it. But thanks for the "heads-up".

If you, or any other member, felt this was an attack of some kind, it wasn't. I wanted to bring to light an issue that concerns me that involves SM.


Bill,

I don't really need you telling me what I should think of as right or wrong.

I never said what you think was right or wrong, did I?

I would suggest you get off your moral high horse.

Nice. I didn't know standing up for the rights of animals, asking questions & wanting answers was asking too much. I do have the right to do that since I pay for this service too.

If puppy mills are that bad then work for legislation to make them illegal.

I am, hence the reason for bringing this issue up & telling the SM community about the reality of this industry. The HSUS is working on getting legislation passed to make this illegal:
https://community.hsus.org/campaign/FED_2006_PAWS

Why not sign the petition & send it to your State Representatives / Congressmen / Senators to ask them to cosponsor the PAWS statute.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intent. I'm pretty passionate about animal welfare (as I know a lot of SM members are!) Thanks to those who supported my efforts. I hope we all learned something from this... I know I did.

mercphoto

safaricat70 wrote:

The first line in her bio says:
"Puppies in this Photo Album belong to other breeders that pay me for a space to advertise their puppies."

<snip>

I don't feel I took a hard-edge approach. There was no name calling, no accusations.

You did make an accusation. You said they were a puppy mill that did bad things to puppies. However you have presented no proof that they are that at all. You are assuming it.

I never said what you think was right or wrong, did I?

The implication is very clear that those who do not agree with your thoughts on this subject trouble you.

Nice. I didn't know standing up for the rights of animals, asking questions & wanting answers was asking too much. I do have the right to do that since I pay for this service too.

Its your method outright DEMANDING answers and action that is problematic.

safaricat70

mercphoto wrote:

You did make an accusation. You said they were a puppy mill that did bad things to puppies. However you have presented no proof that they are that at all. You are assuming it.

The implication is very clear that those who do not agree with your thoughts on this subject trouble you.

Its your method outright DEMANDING answers and action that is problematic.

Let's just let it go Bill. I already apologized if I offended anyone... inc you.

Sam

I have been following this thread, and I am in a grumpy mood so I will try to be short and to the point.

Andy, Your response: "Hello safaricat, please - nobody is ignoring you, or this thread. I can promise you that. We do have a business to run as well - and so please give some time. Thanks."

I buy this, please let us know when times up and what the decision is.

safaricat, you are not just passionate, but bordering on being over the top, and while I tend to agree with you, you do have a hard-edge approach.

Don, Shame on you! You wrote: "I'm sorry, I wish we could help somehow, but it's just not possible."

The most polite term I can use in NONSENSE!

As safaricat pointed out:

LICENSE AND SITE ACCESS

This license does not include any resale or commercial use of this site or its contents. This site or any portion of this site may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Smugmug, inc. Any unauthorized use terminates the permission or license granted by Smugmug.

Also stated in your terms is the following: The terms of service state: Smugmug may terminate your account or your access to and use of the Services, with or without cause at any time and effective immediately, at Smugmug's sole discretion, for any reason.

So Don, here is the bottom line for me: if you decide it's ok with you to have this customer sell space on Smugmug site to sell puppies, or anything else for that matter whether or not I agree, it's your business, and your decision. I can live with ether one, but it just drives me nuts when someone (you are not the only one many, many use this ploy) will try and say " I wish I could do something but I can't, when that statement is absolutely untrue!


Just suck it up and say "here is my decision..............."

Told you I was grumpy.


Sam

Only when the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.
Cree Indian prophecy

flyingpylon

This is interesting. I'm not about to get into the puppy debate, but I do think Smugmug needs to make perfectly clear what constitutes an unauthorized reselling of their service.