This is interesting. I'm not about to get into the puppy debate, but I do think Smugmug needs to make perfectly clear what constitutes an unauthorized reselling of their service.
I don't really believe this thread has much to do with unauthorized reselling, as that person is only one example of posting this type of pictures.
I think OneThumb did take a stance, and I stand by it. I own a web hosting company... we are in the business of "hosting" websites. I am not in the business of policing what people are using those sites for. SM is in the picture sharing business. People use their services to share pictures of items for sale all the time (including photography equipment in the Buy/Sell category above). SM does not sell anything except prints.
Is anyone saying it should be illegal to sell animals??? If so, go push to make a law against selling them. It doesn't sound like anyone is saying this though... just that "puppy mills are wrong". Again, you have no proof that anyone posting pictures on SM are operating puppy mills. If you want investigate these alleged puppy mills and prove they are puppy mills, then I think SM would remove them for the ethics of this practice. But again, there is no proof these people are doing anything wrong, and sharing images of items for sale is done all the time.
This license does not include any resale or commercial use of this site or its contents. This site or any portion of this site may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Smugmug, inc. Any unauthorized use terminates the permission or license granted by Smugmug.
Also stated in your terms is the following: The terms of service state: Smugmug may terminate your account or your access to and use of the Services, with or without cause at any time and effective immediately, at Smugmug's sole discretion, for any reason.
This license agreement says to me that i can not (re-)sell smugmug-space. E.g. i can not ask people for money to have their pictures/snapshot/art posted on smugmug, like re-selling smugmug's services. So, the site that sells add-space on smugmug may be violating this agreement.
But if i put my pictures on smugmug, and the pictures are legal and in smugmug's agreement (no porn, etc), i can sell anything through these pics that is legal, whether it is prints of my pics or the subjects of my pics.
I'd like that fur would be banned. But if people use smugmug-hosted pics to advertise fur coats, either through smugmug's site or through e-bay, i can't do anything about it: Selling fur is legal.
I agree that the original issue was not about unauthorized reselling. But it also seems pretty clear that there is an interpretation issue that needs clarification. That's all I'm interested in personally, just because I'm curious to know where the line gets drawn.
Obviously it's within the policy to upload photos of stuff *you* have for sale. What's not completely obvious is whether it's okay to charge other people to upload photos to your smugmug site as part of a larger service that is not strictly in the business of selling photo hosting.
My first assumption would be that reselling your smugmug space in any way, shape or form would be a violation. But then we had OneThumb ask "where's the violation?" (granted the possible policy violation had not been pointed out, but then again, he didn't recognize it either).
I agree that the original issue was not about unauthorized reselling. But it also seems pretty clear that there is an interpretation issue that needs clarification. That's all I'm interested in personally, just because I'm curious to know where the line gets drawn.
Obviously it's within the policy to upload photos of stuff *you* have for sale. What's not completely obvious is whether it's okay to charge other people to upload photos to your smugmug site as part of a larger service that is not strictly in the business of selling photo hosting.
My first assumption would be that reselling your smugmug space in any way, shape or form would be a violation. But then we had OneThumb ask "where's the violation?" (granted the possible policy violation had not been pointed out, but then again, he didn't recognize it either).
So we're discussing this internally, so take this as only my personal interpretation. But I am the CEO and one of the founders, so I carry a big stick.
I happen to think people building businesses that leverage SmugMug is a *GREAT* idea. We're still trying to figure out where the grey areas are and what's ok and what isn't, but in general, I think building a business that uses SmugMug as part of (or even most of) your business is a Good Thing.
This is true if you're a Pro selling prints or offering your services. This is true if you're a hot coder like Nikolai selling Star*Explorer to make using SmugMug easier. This is true if you're one of our (unnamed for now) corporate partners who are extending their product or brand by leveraging SmugMug. And I think this is true of Texas Teacups too. I like the idea that people can build strong businesses (or even just put a little more spending money in their pockets) by leveraging our work. That's just cool.
The one thing that clearly isn't cool, though, is if someone buys a SmugMug account and then either re-sells the login or uses our API to provide SmugMug hosting access to lots of other people. Note that what I mean here is that a single person buys a single account which then enables lots of people to share that same account.
This is very different, though, than someone providing a service where they take their photos and stick them online. If I set up "Don's Car Photo Service" for people who have no idea how to put their car photos online, I think I'm ok with that. I am the one doing the work to gather customers, to take their memory cards, extract the photos, upload them and organize them, publicize them, etc. In other words, I'm adding value on top of what SmugMug already provides.
SmugMug doesn't offer a service where you can come drop off your memory card or roll of film or whatever and have it processed and organized. Thus there's this extra layer of effort and service that I think someone *should* get paid for. It's just like someone designing a website or something.
Does that make sense?
I've been meaning to see if we can remove or loosen our restrictions on the API usage for just this reason, actually. I want people to think of SmugMug as a tool they can use to build or enhance their business as well as their personal lives.
Don, Shame on you! You wrote: "I'm sorry, I wish we could help somehow, but it's just not possible."
The most polite term I can use in NONSENSE!
As safaricat pointed out:
LICENSE AND SITE ACCESS
This license does not include any resale or commercial use of this site or its contents. This site or any portion of this site may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Smugmug, inc. Any unauthorized use terminates the permission or license granted by Smugmug.
Also stated in your terms is the following: The terms of service state: Smugmug may terminate your account or your access to and use of the Services, with or without cause at any time and effective immediately, at Smugmug's sole discretion, for any reason.
So Don, here is the bottom line for me: if you decide it's ok with you to have this customer sell space on Smugmug site to sell puppies, or anything else for that matter whether or not I agree, it's your business, and your decision. I can live with ether one, but it just drives me nuts when someone (you are not the only one many, many use this ploy) will try and say " I wish I could do something but I can't, when that statement is absolutely untrue!
Just suck it up and say "here is my decision..............."
Told you I was grumpy.
By my interpretation, they're not violating any of our terms of use. Since I helped write them (prior to being turned into nearly illegible legalese), I think I have a pretty good handle on what the "spirit of the law" is.
As for not being able to do something, I still stand by that statement. There hasn't been one shred of proof that "Texas Teacups" isn't a legitimate breeder, not a "puppy mill". My hands are thus tied, because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty.
Given evidence that there was animal abuse going on and we were somehow facilitating it, I'd shut them down in a nanosecond.
So we're discussing this internally, so take this as only my personal interpretation. But I am the CEO and one of the founders, so I carry a big stick.
I happen to think people building businesses that leverage SmugMug is a *GREAT* idea. We're still trying to figure out where the grey areas are and what's ok and what isn't, but in general, I think building a business that uses SmugMug as part of (or even most of) your business is a Good Thing.
This is true if you're a Pro selling prints or offering your services. This is true if you're a hot coder like Nikolai selling Star*Explorer to make using SmugMug easier. This is true if you're one of our (unnamed for now) corporate partners who are extending their product or brand by leveraging SmugMug. And I think this is true of Texas Teacups too. I like the idea that people can build strong businesses (or even just put a little more spending money in their pockets) by leveraging our work. That's just cool.
The one thing that clearly isn't cool, though, is if someone buys a SmugMug account and then either re-sells the login or uses our API to provide SmugMug hosting access to lots of other people. Note that what I mean here is that a single person buys a single account which then enables lots of people to share that same account.
This is very different, though, than someone providing a service where they take their photos and stick them online. If I set up "Don's Car Photo Service" for people who have no idea how to put their car photos online, I think I'm ok with that. I am the one doing the work to gather customers, to take their memory cards, extract the photos, upload them and organize them, publicize them, etc. In other words, I'm adding value on top of what SmugMug already provides.
SmugMug doesn't offer a service where you can come drop off your memory card or roll of film or whatever and have it processed and organized. Thus there's this extra layer of effort and service that I think someone *should* get paid for. It's just like someone designing a website or something.
Does that make sense?
I've been meaning to see if we can remove or loosen our restrictions on the API usage for just this reason, actually. I want people to think of SmugMug as a tool they can use to build or enhance their business as well as their personal lives.
Don
Don, (the one with the big stick)
Well thought out response. You did good. While I don't have a Smugmug account, (if I ever find a need for an online web site, Smugmug is the first 3 on my list), I never thought of Smugmug as a personal business web site. I always thought of it as an exclusive photo sharing web site, joined at the hip with D-grin. It now looks like they are two stand alone entities with close ties.
If I understand your answer, Smugmug is much more of a general / business, personal web site currently with organization, and sales functions for photos.
I think it would be a good idea to spell this out (clarify) in your terms of use to eliminate just this kind of controversy.
if you think that abusing dogs are bad you should look at this website it has pics of puppy mill dogs. Look at how discusting the place it. I am glad my puppy didn't come to from a horibal discusting place. and if you want to get rid of dogs then i say
Moderator edit: (foul language deleted by moderators) ******! )
if you think that abusing dogs are bad you should look at this website it has pics of puppy mill dogs. Look at how discusting the place it. I am glad my puppy didn't come to from a horibal discusting place. and if you want to get rid of dogs then i say
Moderator edit: (foul language deleted by moderators) ******! )
if you think that abusing dogs are bad you should look at this website it has pics of puppy mill dogs. Look at how discusting the place it.
Again, there is no evidence that the smugmug users in question are puppymill folks. In fact their smugmug site points to a separate website that seems pretty straight-up. From their site:
Our puppies are born and raised in a home environment. They are available to be viewed and purchased at our new! Pet Boutique when they are ready to go to their new home. Puppies are normally ready to go when they have had two sets of shots.
I know you can say anything on a website but these guys list names of buyers, their vet's names, they've got connections with local Dallas entities, lots of dog health info, etc.
I understand your anger at animal abusers but point it at the problem. Just because someone transacts business on the web, doesn't make them automatically evil.
No evidence against these people! Let's move on - nothing to see here folks.
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
This continues to perplex me: where, in any of my posts, did I ever say that I didn't like/love dogs? It's so wierd that people keep bringing up the fact that they "personally love dogs" or that *they* are dog lovers... like I'm not? If I wasn't, I wouldn't give a crap about puppy mills & I wouldn't have brought this to the attention of SM & it's community. Just to make it clear to everyone... I love animals. All kinds. Great & small. Bald & furry. Water & land & air. Even insects, I respect them.
Smugmug team - thank you for taking the time to mull this issue over. I know it's a gray area & if you feel you've made the right decision, then ok. I know you have a business to run & must do what you feel is right/good for the business. It's nice to see that you're supportive of the entrepreneurs out there.
You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people some of the time... & that's me :
The post I made recently wasn't directed towards you. It was directed towards DavidTO and his comment of getting rid of dogs completly. I am sorry if you thought it was directed towards you........that tends to happen alot of the time when I forget to type out the name of the person who I am sending the reply towards. So yet again I am very sorry.
The post I made recently wasn't directed towards you. It was directed towards DavidTO and his comment of getting rid of dogs completly. I am sorry if you thought it was directed towards you........that tends to happen alot of the time when I forget to type out the name of the person who I am sending the reply towards. So yet again I am very sorry.
Aristides
I was referring to the site, not the dogs themselves.
Comments
I don't really believe this thread has much to do with unauthorized reselling, as that person is only one example of posting this type of pictures.
I think OneThumb did take a stance, and I stand by it. I own a web hosting company... we are in the business of "hosting" websites. I am not in the business of policing what people are using those sites for. SM is in the picture sharing business. People use their services to share pictures of items for sale all the time (including photography equipment in the Buy/Sell category above). SM does not sell anything except prints.
Is anyone saying it should be illegal to sell animals??? If so, go push to make a law against selling them. It doesn't sound like anyone is saying this though... just that "puppy mills are wrong". Again, you have no proof that anyone posting pictures on SM are operating puppy mills. If you want investigate these alleged puppy mills and prove they are puppy mills, then I think SM would remove them for the ethics of this practice. But again, there is no proof these people are doing anything wrong, and sharing images of items for sale is done all the time.
I think it is time to drop this issue.
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This license agreement says to me that i can not (re-)sell smugmug-space. E.g. i can not ask people for money to have their pictures/snapshot/art posted on smugmug, like re-selling smugmug's services. So, the site that sells add-space on smugmug may be violating this agreement.
But if i put my pictures on smugmug, and the pictures are legal and in smugmug's agreement (no porn, etc), i can sell anything through these pics that is legal, whether it is prints of my pics or the subjects of my pics.
I'd like that fur would be banned. But if people use smugmug-hosted pics to advertise fur coats, either through smugmug's site or through e-bay, i can't do anything about it: Selling fur is legal.
When I hear the earth will melt into the sun,
in two billion years,
all I can think is:
"Will that be on a Monday?"
==========================
http://www.streetsofboston.com
http://blog.antonspaans.com
Obviously it's within the policy to upload photos of stuff *you* have for sale. What's not completely obvious is whether it's okay to charge other people to upload photos to your smugmug site as part of a larger service that is not strictly in the business of selling photo hosting.
My first assumption would be that reselling your smugmug space in any way, shape or form would be a violation. But then we had OneThumb ask "where's the violation?" (granted the possible policy violation had not been pointed out, but then again, he didn't recognize it either).
So we're discussing this internally, so take this as only my personal interpretation. But I am the CEO and one of the founders, so I carry a big stick.
I happen to think people building businesses that leverage SmugMug is a *GREAT* idea. We're still trying to figure out where the grey areas are and what's ok and what isn't, but in general, I think building a business that uses SmugMug as part of (or even most of) your business is a Good Thing.
This is true if you're a Pro selling prints or offering your services. This is true if you're a hot coder like Nikolai selling Star*Explorer to make using SmugMug easier. This is true if you're one of our (unnamed for now) corporate partners who are extending their product or brand by leveraging SmugMug. And I think this is true of Texas Teacups too. I like the idea that people can build strong businesses (or even just put a little more spending money in their pockets) by leveraging our work. That's just cool.
The one thing that clearly isn't cool, though, is if someone buys a SmugMug account and then either re-sells the login or uses our API to provide SmugMug hosting access to lots of other people. Note that what I mean here is that a single person buys a single account which then enables lots of people to share that same account.
This is very different, though, than someone providing a service where they take their photos and stick them online. If I set up "Don's Car Photo Service" for people who have no idea how to put their car photos online, I think I'm ok with that. I am the one doing the work to gather customers, to take their memory cards, extract the photos, upload them and organize them, publicize them, etc. In other words, I'm adding value on top of what SmugMug already provides.
SmugMug doesn't offer a service where you can come drop off your memory card or roll of film or whatever and have it processed and organized. Thus there's this extra layer of effort and service that I think someone *should* get paid for. It's just like someone designing a website or something.
Does that make sense?
I've been meaning to see if we can remove or loosen our restrictions on the API usage for just this reason, actually. I want people to think of SmugMug as a tool they can use to build or enhance their business as well as their personal lives.
Don
By my interpretation, they're not violating any of our terms of use. Since I helped write them (prior to being turned into nearly illegible legalese), I think I have a pretty good handle on what the "spirit of the law" is.
As for not being able to do something, I still stand by that statement. There hasn't been one shred of proof that "Texas Teacups" isn't a legitimate breeder, not a "puppy mill". My hands are thus tied, because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty.
Given evidence that there was animal abuse going on and we were somehow facilitating it, I'd shut them down in a nanosecond.
But as it is, I cannot help, as I stated.
Don
Don, (the one with the big stick)
Well thought out response. You did good. While I don't have a Smugmug account, (if I ever find a need for an online web site, Smugmug is the first 3 on my list), I never thought of Smugmug as a personal business web site. I always thought of it as an exclusive photo sharing web site, joined at the hip with D-grin. It now looks like they are two stand alone entities with close ties.
If I understand your answer, Smugmug is much more of a general / business, personal web site currently with organization, and sales functions for photos.
I think it would be a good idea to spell this out (clarify) in your terms of use to eliminate just this kind of controversy.
Sam
Moderator edit: (foul language deleted by moderators) ******! )
I personally love dogs
http://www.shershihtzus.com/about_puppy_mills.htm
Your opinion is welcome, certainly. But watch your language. We don't allow foul language on Dgrin. Period.
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Again, there is no evidence that the smugmug users in question are puppymill folks. In fact their smugmug site points to a separate website that seems pretty straight-up. From their site:
I understand your anger at animal abusers but point it at the problem. Just because someone transacts business on the web, doesn't make them automatically evil.
No evidence against these people! Let's move on - nothing to see here folks.
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
This continues to perplex me: where, in any of my posts, did I ever say that I didn't like/love dogs? It's so wierd that people keep bringing up the fact that they "personally love dogs" or that *they* are dog lovers... like I'm not? If I wasn't, I wouldn't give a crap about puppy mills & I wouldn't have brought this to the attention of SM & it's community. Just to make it clear to everyone... I love animals. All kinds. Great & small. Bald & furry. Water & land & air. Even insects, I respect them.
Smugmug team - thank you for taking the time to mull this issue over. I know it's a gray area & if you feel you've made the right decision, then ok. I know you have a business to run & must do what you feel is right/good for the business. It's nice to see that you're supportive of the entrepreneurs out there.
You can't please all the people, all the time, but you can please some of the people some of the time... & that's me
Duly noted to move on
Cheers!
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Aristides
I was referring to the site, not the dogs themselves.
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