I think Canon has a good camera here. Cheaper than the 20D when it was first brought out, so that's a plus. Larger LCD, that's a plus. I really like the smart auto-rotate feature (firmware update for my 20D, Canon?). Picture Styles should be nice. Bigger buffer. And I'm not upset its still 8MP.
And I really like that folders can hold more than 100 photos now!
But I still want a 1D Mark II N. $$$
The D200 has it beat on megapixels (no biggie) and weather sealing. But I think the 30D will easily beat Nikon on high ISO performance. And the Canon is cheaper by $300.
20D users aren't the key target market
The 30D is primarily focused (no pun intended) on new dSLR customers, or existing 350D users. There's not enough in it for present 20D owners, except for those who must have the latest and can afford to take the financial upgrade hit.
By confining the 30D to only incremental 'improvements', Canon is ensuring most prosumer users are not distracted from their aspirations along a 1- or 5- (or 3-?) series FF upgrade path. Indeed, as there is so little in the 30D announcement, could Canon's PR folks still have more media statements to release in the next day or two?
still 1.6 now though aint it, i would rather have a 17-40 for wide, 50 for normal and 70-200 for the rest of the stuff and 28-105 for everyday walk-around
Actually, I'm quite excited about the improvements Canon put into the 30D. I think I'll be upgrading after I read a couple of reviews. If anyone's interested in my 20D, email me.
The 30D is primarily focused (no pun intended) on new dSLR customers, or existing 350D users. There's not enough in it for present 20D owners, except for those who must have the latest and can afford to take the financial upgrade hit.
I strongly disagree, a larger RAW buffer and spot metering make it worthwhile for me if I can get enough for my 20D on switching. I love spot metering on my EOS 5 and I was kinda hoping for a digital prosumer equivalent
Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'. Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to. And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now! Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy......the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019
Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...
Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.
Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something... Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit
And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting
I'll take a stab at this
I will play nice I promise ....
First off, this really isn't about Nikon vs Canon. It's really about *my* choice vs *your choice*. You could substitute Ford vs Chevy, Remington vs Browning, whatever, it's the same-my choice vs your choice OR my *needs* vs your *needs*.
If I can figure out how to type within your quotes this will be much easier...let's see....
Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'.
I disagree. Nikon has plenty of supporters who are very valient to crusade against any attempt to smear their cameras. Also, the history of the Canonites under Nikon's domination of the Pro Photo Fields of Old is replete with everything from public scorn to castration by sacrcasm. I am a victim of such treatment that began with my decision to purchase an AE-1 at the turn of the century.
Your type of thinking is basically a type of paranoia. However, it is enjoyable to see Nikon users up against the ropes (even if the ropes are invisible)
Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to.
The day you made a choice you were drafted into "the camera wars". This post is proof enough of that!
Sorry, I cannot, and will not *admit* any such thing. I have committed no crime nor sin and will not bow to this idea because in someone else's mind the D200 IS better. Not a month ago, and not since the 30d was released do I believe this. In fact, looking at the feature set of the 30D, I'd easily say that *for me* the 30D IS STILL the better camera.
The nearest camera I compare the D200 to is my Canon 1D. I paid less for my 1D used than a D200 is new. In EVERY AREA except resolution, high ISO noise, and weight, the 1D puts the D200 to shame. You may not be aware of it but the 1D offers-COMPLETE weather sealing, 8fps, built in vertical grip, advanced auto focus, REAL pro body build, and a host of other refiinements that make it clearly superior to the D200-*for me*.
And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now!
Here sir, you are absolutely and totally correct, and hats off to Nikon for it
Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy......the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019
If you're not sure of the features the D200 really has, check the online user's manual. You'd be amazed at the level of customization this camera has. From the 4 shooting menu banks (where you can preset the camera to have different options set when you select the one of the other banks) to the advanced D2x autofocus modes to the vast array of dedicated buttons and dials to access commonly used functions.
I'm not upset at all. I have a 1D and a 20D. The 30D resolved some issues with the 20D that make it even nicer, and it's now cheaper than the D200. I have no dobt whatever that Canon will soon release a 'true' upgrade to their 1 series cameras, and once this takes place we will see the trickle down effect onto the lower end bodies.
I have personal functions available on my 1D, and I've never used them, so no real benefit *to me* there.
Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...
Well, I guess if you want to look at it this way, that's ok by me. But better is certainly relative AND subjective. Personally....
I find no advantage to a 'weather sealed' body that leaves an open lens mount and no weather proof lenses (as far as I know).
I find no advantage to the resolution.
I DO NOT like the 'feel' of Nikon bodies, they just don't fit my hands as well as Canons do.
The .5 framerate difference doesn't mean anything to me.
The deeper RAW buffer means nothing to me for what I use this camera for.
I am comfortable enough and can navigate the Canon control system fast enough that more buttons don't necessarily offer an advantage.
I see NO ADVANTAGE at all in the Nikons image quality over the Canon's.
MYTH BUSTER: Nikon's body is NOT BETTER CONSTRUCTED THAN Canons. I've compare them side by side, and I'm am amazed at how many people make this claim. I prefer the smooth contours and design of the Canon's over the chunky looking Nikons.
WIFI? I don't need WIFI so no advantage to me there.
AF points-11 vs 9? come on, I use center point almost exclusively on both my 1D (which has 45 pts. btw) and my 20D, if not the center point-then ONLY 1 point at a time. What good are two more AF points that I will probably NEVER use?
I could go on but time is of the essence....
[quote-kygarden] Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.[/quote]
The 30D was probably beginning production before the D200 was even released. As has been said many, many, times-Canon is NOT going tit for tat with Nikon, BUT Nikon IS trying to compete with Canon. I think it's amusing that Canon could release a Nikon-killing camera AT ANY LEVEL AT ANY TIME! They haven't, because they haven't had to, it's that simple. Do we really think that Canon couldn't make a digital EOS 3?
Saying that the D200 lacks 'shooting modes' and is therefore more serious, is the same mistake people made about the Digital Rebel because it was silver. This amounts to 'mind games' in my opinion. Nikon looses the soccer moms by not including it, while Canon looses NOTHING by including it.
[quote-kygarden] Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something... Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit [/quote]
No flames, just 'opinions'. Sorry, I can't say that Nikon has the 'upper hand' here AT ALL. To truly have the 'upper hand' Nikon would have to have superior technology to Canon. They don't. Nikon may have generated and renewed interest in their cameras, but they have released NOTHING that Canon is incapable of releasing-ANY TIME THEY WISH. What it boils down to is how to maximize profits, and Canon has a much better idea than I do about how best to do that.
I guess to sum this up, you could say that Nikon has released a very good camera at a great price point. AT THIS TIME Canon may not be WILLING to put out a competitor, but certainly they COULD put out a competitor. For some people the D200 may just be THE CAMERA, but for others, certainly the 30D is THE CAMERA.
And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting
And here we have achieved complete agreement!
Take care and good light,
Mongrel
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
It's just that this camera has caused a huge stir on other forums and kind of doesn't live up to the hype. I mean I heard: 1.3X multiplier, weather-sealed, 10mpxl, DigicIII, better high ISO performance, ISO in the VF all of the time , better burst processing and spot metering.
Who's fault is that? Certianly not Canon's. They've been chastised so many times for their pre-release 'leaks' and now it seems many are disapointed for the opposite! I guess you really can't win.
Quite frankly I think you were kidding yourself if you believed half those specs. I can't imagine why Canon would drop support for EF-S glass at this point in time in the x0D tier cameras. Maybe if there were two x0D tier cameras available at once, meaning the 20D stayed AND there was a FF/1.3x body offered in addition.
The only shocker in my opinion is the lack of the extra 2 MP. I don't think the informed consumer would give a hoot, but like Intel's marketing strategy w/ procesosrs, big numbers sell for the masses. 10MP would have made the camera more marketable. Maybe this is a sign that the market has (finally) moved past this mentality.
I read a post last night that claimed that Nikon did better w/ their D70->D70s move, that Canon should have called the camera a '20DN' or '20DmkII' inline w/ what Nikon did w/ the D70->D70s and pointed out that the D70s was far less hyped, implying that this was far more considerate to their consumers. Someone else pointed out that the D70s wasn't hyped because the specs were leaked (by way of the user's manual) well before the camera's release, so everyone and their brother knew the specs well before the announcement.
You pre-leak the specs and you get chastised for not playing by the rules and screwing camera news outlets. (I've seen Phil Askey go off about this countless times.) But if you don't say a peep and have a controlled release you get chastised for letting the hype build and not living up to it. Like I said, seems like you just can't win.
I'd be far more disapointed if they hadn't released a 20D refresh at all! I'm still impressed that they are keeping up this 18 month refresh rate. Speaking as an engineer, that's tough!
So what's next up for refit? The 350D/XT next fall I suppose. Should Canon let the hype build for the next 6 months, or beat us all to the punch and announce the expected specs now. (And torpedo all 350D sales for the next 6 months!)
I for one am always glad to see improvements in the DSLR's, even if small. I started with a Digital Rebel and never shed a tear when the 20D was introduced, I just bought it!
Now the 20D is better suited for sports and animals than landscapes, due to it's multiplication factor. Canon helped us out with a full frame option, the 5D. You can get a 20D or now a 30D and a 5D, for the same cost as a Mark II. And better yet the batteries in the 20D and 5D are the same!!
I for one am not looking for an updated 20D, but good for those who are about to make that jump. My next move, I hope, will be a 5D.
No matter what happens most of us will never have all the bells and whistles! But "whistles" will always say CANON!
Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'. Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to. And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now! Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy......the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019
Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...
Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.
Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something... Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit
And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting
I will agree that the d200 has the 20d/30d beat in form of hardware. i don't, however agree that it has a better sensor.
- Scott http://framebyframe.ca [Bodies] Canon EOS 20D - Canon EOS 500 [Lenses] Sigma APO 70-200 f/2.8 - Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 - Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 - Tamron XR Di 28-75mm f/2.8 - Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
[Flash] Sigma EF500 Super DG Flash
[Tripod] Manfrotto 055 Pro Black
[Head] 484RC2, 200RC2
Well, if I jump ship or just go 30D I still have a 20D kit with the 18-55 here to get rid of. I'd be happy to sell it here, but my guess is that none of you really want the 18-55 and I can probably get a decent amount for it on theBay. Either way, what's the best way to check clicks? I'm on folder 135 (gotta love that little 30D fix) and it appears they started at 100, so thats about 3,500 clicks best guess and I suppose I could figure it out exactly, either way, its my baby so... its still really purty...
Neither the 5D or the 20D list that approximate "lag time" does anyone know if it is any different by chance? I doubt it, just curious mostly.
I was happy to see it takes the same batteries and n3 remote.
0
BaldyRegistered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 2,853moderator
edited February 23, 2006
Well, hmmm.... My favorite shots are action and for me the 20D is mostly good enough with a 70-200 IS. Light, small, fast on... The issue is the autofocus can be a little too slow for some stuff and for that I miss the MK II.
But the MK II is heavy, expensive, and the lenses get shorter.
Well, if I jump ship or just go 30D I still have a 20D kit with the 18-55 here to get rid of. I'd be happy to sell it here, but my guess is that none of you really want the 18-55 and I can probably get a decent amount for it on theBay. Either way, what's the best way to check clicks? I'm on folder 135 (gotta love that little 30D fix) and it appears they started at 100, so thats about 3,500 clicks best guess and I suppose I could figure it out exactly, either way, its my baby so... its still really purty...
I disagree. I my kitty. Andy does too, I know he was trying to track one down at the same time I was.
- Scott http://framebyframe.ca [Bodies] Canon EOS 20D - Canon EOS 500 [Lenses] Sigma APO 70-200 f/2.8 - Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 - Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 - Tamron XR Di 28-75mm f/2.8 - Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
[Flash] Sigma EF500 Super DG Flash
[Tripod] Manfrotto 055 Pro Black
[Head] 484RC2, 200RC2
Well, hmmm.... My favorite shots are action and for me the 20D is mostly good enough with a 70-200 IS. Light, small, fast on... The issue is the autofocus can be a little too slow for some stuff and for that I miss the MK II.
But the MK II is heavy, expensive, and the lenses get shorter.
Don't see that the 30D helps me. What to do?
I'll agree my 20D is sometimes a touch slow to AF, but in reality I miss only a small number of shots. Is that worth the price of a MkII?
Canon does say the AF algorithms are revised on the 30D, but I have not heard an explanation of what that actually means.
Though the 9-point autofocus system and all aspects of its configuration and operation are the same as that of the 20D, the algorithm controlling autofocus in the 30D has been refined (though Canon has not revealed what has been addressed). The 20D's autofocus system is the most capable we've ever encountered in a midrange digital SLR; if you want better, you have to spend a lot more. We hope that Canon's tinkering with autofocus in the 30D only makes it a better performer than the already-capable 20D. Strangely, while many of the refinements in the 30D first appeared in the 5D last fall, the 30D did not get the 5D's 6 additional Assist AF points clustered around the centre.
Comments
And I really like that folders can hold more than 100 photos now!
But I still want a 1D Mark II N. $$$
The D200 has it beat on megapixels (no biggie) and weather sealing. But I think the 30D will easily beat Nikon on high ISO performance. And the Canon is cheaper by $300.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Daniel - the 20D is SUPERB at ISO 3200.
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The 30D is primarily focused (no pun intended) on new dSLR customers, or existing 350D users. There's not enough in it for present 20D owners, except for those who must have the latest and can afford to take the financial upgrade hit.
By confining the 30D to only incremental 'improvements', Canon is ensuring most prosumer users are not distracted from their aspirations along a 1- or 5- (or 3-?) series FF upgrade path. Indeed, as there is so little in the 30D announcement, could Canon's PR folks still have more media statements to release in the next day or two?
still 1.6 now though aint it, i would rather have a 17-40 for wide, 50 for normal and 70-200 for the rest of the stuff
smugmug: www.StandOutphoto.smugmug.com
we'll see if they meet that "70 new products" rumor.
smugmug: www.StandOutphoto.smugmug.com
Michiel de Brieder
http://www.digital-eye.nl
If you're not sure of the features the D200 really has, check the online user's manual. You'd be amazed at the level of customization this camera has. From the 4 shooting menu banks (where you can preset the camera to have different options set when you select the one of the other banks) to the advanced D2x autofocus modes to the vast array of dedicated buttons and dials to access commonly used functions. Have a look: http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13796&p_created=1135005015&p_sid=5rUVrO*h&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0yJnBfcHJvZHM9MTksMjE3JnBfY2F0cz0xODcmcF9wdj0yLjIxNyZwX2N2PTEuMTg3JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1
Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...
Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.
Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features
And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting
I will play nice I promise
First off, this really isn't about Nikon vs Canon. It's really about *my* choice vs *your choice*. You could substitute Ford vs Chevy, Remington vs Browning, whatever, it's the same-my choice vs your choice OR my *needs* vs your *needs*.
If I can figure out how to type within your quotes this will be much easier...let's see....
I disagree. Nikon has plenty of supporters who are very valient to crusade against any attempt to smear their cameras. Also, the history of the Canonites under Nikon's domination of the Pro Photo Fields of Old is replete with everything from public scorn to castration by sacrcasm. I am a victim of such treatment that began with my decision to purchase an AE-1 at the turn of the century.
Your type of thinking is basically a type of paranoia. However, it is enjoyable to see Nikon users up against the ropes (even if the ropes are invisible)
The day you made a choice you were drafted into "the camera wars". This post is proof enough of that!
Sorry, I cannot, and will not *admit* any such thing. I have committed no crime nor sin and will not bow to this idea because in someone else's mind the D200 IS better. Not a month ago, and not since the 30d was released do I believe this. In fact, looking at the feature set of the 30D, I'd easily say that *for me* the 30D IS STILL the better camera.
The nearest camera I compare the D200 to is my Canon 1D. I paid less for my 1D used than a D200 is new. In EVERY AREA except resolution, high ISO noise, and weight, the 1D puts the D200 to shame. You may not be aware of it but the 1D offers-COMPLETE weather sealing, 8fps, built in vertical grip, advanced auto focus, REAL pro body build, and a host of other refiinements that make it clearly superior to the D200-*for me*.
Here sir, you are absolutely and totally correct, and hats off to Nikon for it
I'm not upset at all. I have a 1D and a 20D. The 30D resolved some issues with the 20D that make it even nicer, and it's now cheaper than the D200. I have no dobt whatever that Canon will soon release a 'true' upgrade to their 1 series cameras, and once this takes place we will see the trickle down effect onto the lower end bodies.
I have personal functions available on my 1D, and I've never used them, so no real benefit *to me* there.
Well, I guess if you want to look at it this way, that's ok by me. But better is certainly relative AND subjective. Personally....
I find no advantage to a 'weather sealed' body that leaves an open lens mount and no weather proof lenses (as far as I know).
I find no advantage to the resolution.
I DO NOT like the 'feel' of Nikon bodies, they just don't fit my hands as well as Canons do.
The .5 framerate difference doesn't mean anything to me.
The deeper RAW buffer means nothing to me for what I use this camera for.
I am comfortable enough and can navigate the Canon control system fast enough that more buttons don't necessarily offer an advantage.
I see NO ADVANTAGE at all in the Nikons image quality over the Canon's.
MYTH BUSTER: Nikon's body is NOT BETTER CONSTRUCTED THAN Canons. I've compare them side by side, and I'm am amazed at how many people make this claim. I prefer the smooth contours and design of the Canon's over the chunky looking Nikons.
WIFI? I don't need WIFI so no advantage to me there.
AF points-11 vs 9? come on, I use center point almost exclusively on both my 1D (which has 45 pts. btw) and my 20D, if not the center point-then ONLY 1 point at a time. What good are two more AF points that I will probably NEVER use?
I could go on but time is of the essence....
[quote-kygarden] Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.[/quote]
The 30D was probably beginning production before the D200 was even released. As has been said many, many, times-Canon is NOT going tit for tat with Nikon, BUT Nikon IS trying to compete with Canon. I think it's amusing that Canon could release a Nikon-killing camera AT ANY LEVEL AT ANY TIME! They haven't, because they haven't had to, it's that simple. Do we really think that Canon couldn't make a digital EOS 3?
Saying that the D200 lacks 'shooting modes' and is therefore more serious, is the same mistake people made about the Digital Rebel because it was silver. This amounts to 'mind games' in my opinion. Nikon looses the soccer moms by not including it, while Canon looses NOTHING by including it.
[quote-kygarden] Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features
No flames, just 'opinions'. Sorry, I can't say that Nikon has the 'upper hand' here AT ALL. To truly have the 'upper hand' Nikon would have to have superior technology to Canon. They don't. Nikon may have generated and renewed interest in their cameras, but they have released NOTHING that Canon is incapable of releasing-ANY TIME THEY WISH. What it boils down to is how to maximize profits, and Canon has a much better idea than I do about how best to do that.
I guess to sum this up, you could say that Nikon has released a very good camera at a great price point. AT THIS TIME Canon may not be WILLING to put out a competitor, but certainly they COULD put out a competitor. For some people the D200 may just be THE CAMERA, but for others, certainly the 30D is THE CAMERA.
And here we have achieved complete agreement!
Take care and good light,
Mongrel
Quite frankly I think you were kidding yourself if you believed half those specs. I can't imagine why Canon would drop support for EF-S glass at this point in time in the x0D tier cameras. Maybe if there were two x0D tier cameras available at once, meaning the 20D stayed AND there was a FF/1.3x body offered in addition.
The only shocker in my opinion is the lack of the extra 2 MP. I don't think the informed consumer would give a hoot, but like Intel's marketing strategy w/ procesosrs, big numbers sell for the masses. 10MP would have made the camera more marketable. Maybe this is a sign that the market has (finally) moved past this mentality.
I read a post last night that claimed that Nikon did better w/ their D70->D70s move, that Canon should have called the camera a '20DN' or '20DmkII' inline w/ what Nikon did w/ the D70->D70s and pointed out that the D70s was far less hyped, implying that this was far more considerate to their consumers. Someone else pointed out that the D70s wasn't hyped because the specs were leaked (by way of the user's manual) well before the camera's release, so everyone and their brother knew the specs well before the announcement.
You pre-leak the specs and you get chastised for not playing by the rules and screwing camera news outlets. (I've seen Phil Askey go off about this countless times.) But if you don't say a peep and have a controlled release you get chastised for letting the hype build and not living up to it. Like I said, seems like you just can't win.
I'd be far more disapointed if they hadn't released a 20D refresh at all! I'm still impressed that they are keeping up this 18 month refresh rate. Speaking as an engineer, that's tough!
So what's next up for refit? The 350D/XT next fall I suppose. Should Canon let the hype build for the next 6 months, or beat us all to the punch and announce the expected specs now. (And torpedo all 350D sales for the next 6 months!)
Now the 20D is better suited for sports and animals than landscapes, due to it's multiplication factor. Canon helped us out with a full frame option, the 5D. You can get a 20D or now a 30D and a 5D, for the same cost as a Mark II. And better yet the batteries in the 20D and 5D are the same!!
I for one am not looking for an updated 20D, but good for those who are about to make that jump. My next move, I hope, will be a 5D.
No matter what happens most of us will never have all the bells and whistles! But "whistles" will always say CANON!
I will agree that the d200 has the 20d/30d beat in form of hardware. i don't, however agree that it has a better sensor.
http://framebyframe.ca
[Bodies] Canon EOS 20D - Canon EOS 500
[Lenses] Sigma APO 70-200 f/2.8 - Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 - Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 - Tamron XR Di 28-75mm f/2.8 - Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
[Flash] Sigma EF500 Super DG Flash
[Tripod] Manfrotto 055 Pro Black
[Head] 484RC2, 200RC2
Since Sony makes the sensor, I've been wondering if it's essentially the same sensor as in the new 10.3 MP R1? Hmmm...
Oooo i can't believe that thought didn't occur to me... it would make sense now wouldn't it...
most likely is, unless Andy or some other Guru knows different.
Speaking of R1 and Andy:
Andy,
How is your IR R1? i heard you got it...
smugmug: www.StandOutphoto.smugmug.com
It would be nice if both were found in the same camera.. oh well, competition is good for everyone!
Soft-touch electromagnetic release; shutter "lag time" approx. 65 msec.
Neither the 5D or the 20D list that approximate "lag time" does anyone know if it is any different by chance? I doubt it, just curious mostly.
I was happy to see it takes the same batteries and n3 remote.
But the MK II is heavy, expensive, and the lenses get shorter.
Don't see that the 30D helps me. What to do?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
I disagree. I
http://framebyframe.ca
[Bodies] Canon EOS 20D - Canon EOS 500
[Lenses] Sigma APO 70-200 f/2.8 - Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 - Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 - Tamron XR Di 28-75mm f/2.8 - Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
[Flash] Sigma EF500 Super DG Flash
[Tripod] Manfrotto 055 Pro Black
[Head] 484RC2, 200RC2
Canon does say the AF algorithms are revised on the 30D, but I have not heard an explanation of what that actually means.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Well thats good I guess, because I put up for auction here...