Question about short banding stripes

flyingdutchie

I attached an example of a 200% crop of a part of the back of a chair against an overblown background (sun through a window): 1/90s - f/2.8, ISO400, EC=+1EV.

I expected more blooming (i'm pleasantly surprised it is so little), but instead i see banding stripes. I've seen other examples here on DGrin with long long stripes throughout the picture. Luckily these are short
Note that the stripes are actually vertical, because the image has been rotated.

Question: Noise Reduction does not seem to be able to get rid of the banding stripes. Is there, besides healing patch, etc, another way of getting rid of this?

Thanks!

gluwater

What camera are you using? If you have the D200 it is known to have banding problems and you can send it back to Nikon for a fix.

flyingdutchie

gluwater wrote:

What camera are you using? If you have the D200 it is known to have banding problems and you can send it back to Nikon for a fix.

Yes, it is a D200.
I've been reading up on this banding thing a little online.
What i have here seems to be short banding. Not long banding. Only long banding (stripes throughout the entire picture) will be fixed by Nikon.

What i'm wondering about is whether this amount of banding is normal or not.

Thanks!

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Yes, it is a D200.
I've been reading up on this banding thing a little online.
What i have here seems to be short banding. Not long banding. Only long banding (stripes throughout the entire picture) will be fixed by Nikon.

What i'm wondering about is whether this amount of banding is normal or not.

Thanks!

The left side of the frame is definitely not right...send it in. I had vertical banding of similar magnitude on my D200. Sent it in to Nikon in NY and it's all gone.

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

The left side of the frame is definitely not right...send it in. I had vertical banding of similar magnitude on my D200. Sent it in to Nikon in NY and it's all gone.

I called Nikon USA service center and they'll fix the issue for me. It was no hassle at all.
Thanks!

gluwater

You may want to check out the NikonCafe D200 Banding forum

flyingdutchie

If anyone (owning a D200) is interested, the status of my banding problem is being updated on my blog:
http://blog.antonspaans.com/2006/03/02/d200-in-repair-for-banding-issue/121/

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

If anyone (owning a D200) is interested, the status of my banding problem is being updated on my blog:
http://blog.antonspaans.com/2006/03/02/d200-in-repair-for-banding-issue/121/

FYI...that's the same status/work order I had for mine and it's all good now.

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

FYI...that's the same status/work order I had for mine and it's all good now.

Great!:D
So, you're happy with the repairs. Has the banding gone entirely?
I read some repaired D200s came back with (somewhat) increased noise-levels. Was your's OK?

kygarden

chuckice wrote:

FYI...that's the same status/work order I had for mine and it's all good now.

Not including shipping, how long did the whole process take? And what speed of shipping do THEY use when they send it back to you? I believe I have VERY mild banding (never notice it unless I really, really look for it and it's sort of a crappy exposure anyway)...so I've thought of sending it in...but I hate to part with it.

Do they wipe out your in-camera settings?

Apart from getting the banding fixed which doesn't even concern me because I never really see it, I was hoping I'd end up with their latest tweaks Sort of like a free update/checkup if you will.

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Great!:D
So, you're happy with the repairs. Has the banding gone entirely?
I read some repaired D200s came back with (somewhat) increased noise-levels. Was your's OK?

First off I never had any serious banding...it only happened in some very contrived situations. i.e. really blown out background, etc. That's not to say it wouldn't happen in the field but in almost 10,000 shots since early December it never did. However, I could "make" it happen so I sent it in. It came back 99% better. I can still see minor bands around the fringes of EXTREMELY blown areas but that's at a major zoom. So it's not entirely gone but in it's current implementation even if it happens in the field it's not likely to affect the outcome unless I seriously need to crop...and at that point I'm not sure of the quality of the shot anyways.

As far as noise I haven't noticed any difference...I don't regularly go over 800 tho so I'm always pleased. My low light shooting is generally still ok lit sports arenas and with an f2 I have some wiggle room.

I'm sure yours will be fixed but up to you if you can live with what will likely remain. I know I can...besides...I don't invest in the body long term.

chuckice

kygarden wrote:

Not including shipping, how long did the whole process take? And what speed of shipping do THEY use when they send it back to you? I believe I have VERY mild banding (never notice it unless I really, really look for it and it's sort of a crappy exposure anyway)...so I've thought of sending it in...but I hate to part with it.

Do they wipe out your in-camera settings?

Apart from getting the banding fixed which doesn't even concern me because I never really see it, I was hoping I'd end up with their latest tweaks Sort of like a free update/checkup if you will.

I sent it on a Tuesday AM and it was on my doorstep the following Monday via UPS express overnite. I was VERY impressed. The in camera settings are definitely gone but if you have NC you can save them. At least download the full 30 day trial if not and save them and you should be good to go...

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

FYI...that's the same status/work order I had for mine and it's all good now.

Thanks for your updates!

I can live with slight short banding (see my sample pic on my blog: the right side of the chair has some banding, but not too bad). I sent it in because of the banding seen at the chair's left edge. I sincerely hope that will be fixed :

About a week: That's pretty fast. Nikon gave me the same estimate.

I did not save any of the settings: but i can get them back. I did set them once, i can do that again ... hehehe

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Thanks for your updates!

I can live with slight short banding (see my sample pic on my blog: the right side of the chair has some banding, but not too bad). I sent it in because of the banding seen at the chair's left edge. I sincerely hope that will be fixed :

About a week: That's pretty fast. Nikon gave me the same estimate.

I did not save any of the settings: but i can get them back. I did set them once, i can do that again ... hehehe

The banding on the RIGHT side of your pic is MUCH worse than what I got back AFTER the fix so my guess is you'll be pleased. No prob on the updates...the only ding I have on Nikon is they don't do a good job of telling you what's going on. For example, I received my letter from Nikon with my service order the same day (or day after...can't remember) it shipped back to me. So I called the Monday after since it went into some weird state name but out of the shop. Anyways, I called and they said that meant it was in the shipping process...they checked their computers and saw that it had shipped and lo and behold it was on a UPS truck on its way to me. I literally had it 10 minutes after I hung up with them that Monday AM. Can't complain really but the point being their repair site seems to be slightly behind what's available info if you actually call...

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

The banding on the RIGHT side of your pic is MUCH worse than what I got back AFTER the fix so my guess is you'll be pleased. No prob on the updates...the only ding I have on Nikon is they don't do a good job of telling you what's going on. For example, I received my letter from Nikon with my service order the same day (or day after...can't remember) it shipped back to me. So I called the Monday after since it went into some weird state name but out of the shop. Anyways, I called and they said that meant it was in the shipping process...they checked their computers and saw that it had shipped and lo and behold it was on a UPS truck on its way to me. I literally had it 10 minutes after I hung up with them that Monday AM. Can't complain really but the point being their repair site seems to be slightly behind what's available info if you actually call...

That's good news. Then the result should be better than i was willing to accept!

Their repair site may be a little behind, but i must say that calling tech support is pretty speedy. All in all, i called them 3 times and i was never put on hold for a representative, not even for one second (after i waded through the menu-options).

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

That's good news. Then the result should be better than i was willing to accept!

Their repair site may be a little behind, but i must say that calling tech support is pretty speedy. All in all, i called them 3 times and i was never put on hold for a representative, not even for one second (after i waded through the menu-options).

Definitely...they're quick and very nice...I just don't like talking to people.

flyingdutchie

D200 back from banding repair. Results here:
I received my D200 today, back from the repair center.
If you're interested, you can read my first impressions about the repairs here: http://blog.antonspaans.com/2006/03/06/d200-in-repair-for-banding-issue-2/123/

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

First off I never had any serious banding...it only happened in some very contrived situations. i.e. really blown out background, etc. That's not to say it wouldn't happen in the field but in almost 10,000 shots since early December it never did. However, I could "make" it happen so I sent it in. It came back 99% better. I can still see minor bands around the fringes of EXTREMELY blown areas but that's at a major zoom. So it's not entirely gone but in it's current implementation even if it happens in the field it's not likely to affect the outcome unless I seriously need to crop...and at that point I'm not sure of the quality of the shot anyways.

As far as noise I haven't noticed any difference...I don't regularly go over 800 tho so I'm always pleased. My low light shooting is generally still ok lit sports arenas and with an f2 I have some wiggle room.

I'm sure yours will be fixed but up to you if you can live with what will likely remain. I know I can...besides...I don't invest in the body long term.

Hi Charles,

This is what i get for banding after the fix.
It is still there. It's less. .. but i can see it too on ISO-200. Then only thing i'm a bit worried about is the vertical pattern (horizontal if image is rotated) in noise-patterns. See the uploaded picture. But maybe this is in spec.

What do you think?
-- Anton

(Both images are 100% crops, no sharpening, no noise reduction whatsoever, all images settings normal/0. Left image is ISO-400, right image ISO-1250.)

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Hi Charles,

This is what i get for banding after the fix.
It is still there. It's less. .. but i can see it too on ISO-200. Then only thing i'm a bit worried about is the vertical pattern (horizontal if image is rotated) in noise-patterns. See the uploaded picture. But maybe this is in spec.

What do you think?
-- Anton

(Both images are 100% crops, no sharpening, no noise reduction whatsoever, all images settings normal/0. Left image is ISO-400, right image ISO-1250.)

Hmmmmmmmm...can you also post the original? I still get banding around blown highlights but it's so minor...you have to zoom to 200% to see them. You definitely have banding but I can't tell if it's on par with what I have or not. Have you tried taking the exact same picture tests that you did before you sent in the cam?

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm...can you also post the original? I still get banding around blown highlights but it's so minor...you have to zoom to 200% to see them. You definitely have banding but I can't tell if it's on par with what I have or not. Have you tried taking the exact same picture tests that you did before you sent in the cam?

The original pic i posted was not a test picture. I won't be able to re-create that in the exact same way. Here is the 100% cropped original (instead of the 200% crop):

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

The original pic i posted was not a test picture. I won't be able to re-create that in the exact same way. Here is the 100% cropped original (instead of the 200% crop):

That right image is definitely more of a concern...I don't see any blown highlights. I get noise at high iso obviously but no patterned banding. That kinda looks like banding. Can you post the entire originals of both?

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

That right image is definitely more of a concern...I don't see any blown highlights. I get noise at high iso obviously but no patterned banding. That kinda looks like banding. Can you post the entire originals of both?

Hi Charles,
Here are the originals (large!):
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59563698-O.jpg
and
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59564342-O.jpg
(both pics processed in Nikon Capture: Removed all noise reduction, sharpening, all image-params set to normal/0, etc).

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Hi Charles,
Here are the originals (large!):
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59563698-O.jpg
and
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59564342-O.jpg
(both pics processed in Nikon Capture: Removed all noise reduction, sharpening, all image-params set to normal/0, etc).

That second shot just doesn't look right...you may want to get some more opinions tho. The first pic seems about on par with what I've seen...maybe a little worse. But there are some clear points of banding in the trees and dark sky of that second pic. It just doesn't look like noise to me.

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

That second shot just doesn't look right...you may want to get some more opinions tho. The first pic seems about on par with what I've seen...maybe a little worse. But there are some clear points of banding in the trees and dark sky of that second pic. It just doesn't look like noise to me.

Thanks Charles!
I posted a message on dpreview. I hope i don't get burried under 'not yet another banding thread' messages

I may contact Nikon Tech support later to see what their opinion is.

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

Thanks Charles!
I posted a message on dpreview. I hope i don't get burried under 'not yet another banding thread' messages

I may contact Nikon Tech support later to see what their opinion is.

Good luck and keep us posted...you should definitely call tech support and give them a good thrashing. That second pic just ain't right.

wxwax

chuckice wrote:

That second shot just doesn't look right...you may want to get some more opinions tho. The first pic seems about on par with what I've seen...maybe a little worse. But there are some clear points of banding in the trees and dark sky of that second pic. It just doesn't look like noise to me.

What's interesting is that the second pic, when viewed at full size, does not have the banding. At least, I couldn't see it. It was only visible on the reduced-size version of the shot.

chuckice

wxwax wrote:

What's interesting is that the second pic, when viewed at full size, does not have the banding. At least, I couldn't see it. It was only visible on the reduced-size version of the shot.

I can definitely see it...or something...or after seeing so many banding pix my eyes now band everything.

I see it in the left side at full res...it's horizontal and starts just above the top of the tree and ends just to the base of the tree. There's no way that's noise...especially in the OOF areas of the tree.
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59564342-O.jpg

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

Good luck and keep us posted...you should definitely call tech support and give them a good thrashing. That second pic just ain't right.

I re-opened my initial issue (question) with Nikon Support. I uploaded a bunch of pics (nefs and jpgs). The first time, they looked at the pics immediately (it was on a sunday too) and immediately told me to send in the camera. This time they'll contact me towards the end of tomorrow. Examining pics from a re-opened issue takes longer.

I also asked if i could get the camera replaced, instead of sending it in time and time again ...

I'll keep you all posted.

flyingdutchie

chuckice wrote:

I can definitely see it...or something...or after seeing so many banding pix my eyes now band everything.

I see it in the left side at full res...it's horizontal and starts just above the top of the tree and ends just to the base of the tree. There's no way that's noise...especially in the OOF areas of the tree.
http://flyingdutchie.smugmug.com/photos/59564342-O.jpg

It seems as if some bands exhibit higher noise than other bands; they alternate. This gives the somewhat striped effect.

The 'funny' thing is, when doing noise-reduction (NR) (e.g. Noise Ninja), the banding in the noise becomes more visible (softer, but more visible), unless you use enormous amounts of NR... but that ruins the pic .

chuckice

flyingdutchie wrote:

It seems as if some bands exhibit higher noise than other bands; they alternate. This gives the somewhat striped effect.

The 'funny' thing is, when doing noise-reduction (NR) (e.g. Noise Ninja), the banding in the noise becomes more visible (softer, but more visible), unless you use enormous amounts of NR... but that ruins the pic .

There's just no reason that should happen. I doubt they'll replace it since they don't seem to be doing that for anyone but they absolutely should take it in for repair. Some folks have been rejected on 2nd repairs...make sure they don't "talk you into it"...that just doesn't look right and there's nothing odd about that picture that should produce that pattern.

flyingdutchie

Nikon asked me to send in the camera again.

flyingdutchie wrote:

I re-opened my initial issue (question) with Nikon Support. I uploaded a bunch of pics (nefs and jpgs). The first time, they looked at the pics immediately (it was on a sunday too) and immediately told me to send in the camera. This time they'll contact me towards the end of tomorrow. Examining pics from a re-opened issue takes longer.

I also asked if i could get the camera replaced, instead of sending it in time and time again ...

I'll keep you all posted.

Nikon asked to send in my camera again. Let's hope it will be fixed now.
I wonder why it could not be fixed the first time... The banding-in-the-noise issue was not hard to reproduce. I shot about 100 pictures in low light (exhibition hall)... almost all of them have this issue.