I'm finding more sales in the 4x6 arena. My thinking is they are taking them home and scanning.
I don't get that feeling with the parents who are buying them. They just seem to want them for the scrapbooks and senior "shrines" at the graduation parties.
Maybe the kids are scanning them, I am not sure about that.
But, they represent about 95% of ths individual small prints I have sold to date. And, I sell a lot more (10x) at $2 than at $4 or higher. And $4 x (not many) < $2 x (more) !
My business got stronger when I decided that I was not going to sell enough 4x6 to make a difference, and to let them go for less. At least they are getting the images out there - and hopefully, creating some "pull" marketing.
So, I promote the bigger stuff - the value-add stuff - that they can't do. And, it seems to be working...
I'm finding something similar with 4x6's. Being a small print size people don't seem to want to spend much money on them. But surprisingly, if I offer them inexpensively, people still order 5x7s (at much more $$$) and 8x10s. I'm also trying to market trading cards, collages as well.
Looking at your site, I wonder if the karts, being tangible and expensive, compared to a child, (we won't go there re: expense!) makes a difference in the size prints they purchase?
I am thinking out loud... the cost to run a kart is significant - vs. a child playing sports - who we are used to spending a lot of money on... but we probably would spend it on the children anyway...So, it is not as big a deal, as say, the expense of the kart. Our friends see our children, but how many of them see the kart? Not that our children are less important, but many of our friends have children, but how many have a racing kart?
There is probably some psych explanation for it all...
Only partially related to the topic at hand, but I'll share anyways:
Tonight I had someone contact me to get some shots done. We talked for a while, discussed what kind of settings they wanted, etc. When I finally quoted them a package price, they balked. Fine. I quoted them a smaller package and shoot. Still had issues. They told me they didn't WANT to pay me, and that instead of pay, they'd rather (and I quote) "Just find a friend who has a good camera."
I could've done it for free and built my portfolio, or even taken a fraction of what I'd normally charge. But then I'd be undervaluing my equipment, my time, my skill, and other photographers, both more and less skilled than myself. One of the best quotes I ever saw was "Working for free only gets you more unpaid work."
I don't get that feeling with the parents who are buying them. They just seem to want them for the scrapbooks and senior "shrines" at the graduation parties.
Maybe the kids are scanning them, I am not sure about that.
But, they represent about 95% of ths individual small prints I have sold to date. And, I sell a lot more (10x) at $2 than at $4 or higher. And $4 x (not many) < $2 x (more) !
My business got stronger when I decided that I was not going to sell enough 4x6 to make a difference, and to let them go for less. At least they are getting the images out there - and hopefully, creating some "pull" marketing.
So, I promote the bigger stuff - the value-add stuff - that they can't do. And, it seems to be working...
I really don't think the average person knows that copying & scanning photos is basically theft. I had a grandfather show up at a game with his new t-shirt sporting a transfer of my shot. Do I offer t-shirts, yes, would mine look better, yes, could he have been anymore proud of his shirt, no. Needless to say I didn't say anything to him. Another person said to me, "No we don't want to buy any photo's, we're just downloading them off you site for free". I couldn't have been more shocked if you slapped me in the face with a dead fish.
I'm offering my 4x6's at a nominal price ($3) but I'm affraid to try the loss leader approach b/c it would it end up a loss for me. But that is my fault. I'm not to good at the sales end and pushing the highend products.
Have you tried any canvas prints?
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I really don't think the average person knows that copying & scanning photos is basically theft. I had a grandfather show up at a game with his new t-shirt sporting a transfer of my shot. Do I offer t-shirts, yes, would mine look better, yes, could he have been anymore proud of his shirt, no. Needless to say I didn't say anything to him. Another person said to me, "No we don't want to buy any photo's, we're just downloading them off you site for free". I couldn't have been more shocked if you slapped me in the face with a dead fish.
I'm offering my 4x6's at a nominal price ($3) but I'm affraid to try the loss leader approach b/c it would it end up a loss for me. But that is my fault. I'm not to good at the sales end and pushing the highend products.
Have you tried any canvas prints?
No, I have not. My only venture into non-standard (4x6 thru 8x10) has been the collages or composites, and the posters. They seem to have generated some interest. The composites look too busy for my taste, but the parents really seem to like them. They can portray a lot of action in one poster.
Having samples has made the biggest impact. I have three sizes of available to show - 8x10, 11x14 and 16x20. So far, they have chosen the 16x20 size mostly, but the 11x14 is a good size for the grandparents!
I was going crazy with trying to get parents to buy anything larger than a 4x6. I had them priced at $5-6 initially, and sold very few. Tried them at $4, not much better. After reading cambler's philosophy, I lowered the price to $1.99 and sales increased significantly. We still are not talking large volumes, but they increased, generating momentum.
After they got the 4x6s in their hands, then they started thinking about the larger stuff.
The satisfaction I see on the parent's faces sure helps me to justify the time I am investing. And the kids love to see themselves in the action photos!
About the downloading off your site, Do you know how do limit what they see, sizes, disable right-click-menu, no originals, etc. ? You can at least deter them.
About the downloading off your site, Do you know how do limit what they see, sizes, disable right-click-menu, no originals, etc. ? You can at least deter them.
Sparky
Yeah, if your talking about protecting in the customizing section. I've done that.
Also another lesson I learned the hard way was in custom pro pricing. I left the fields blank for item's I didn't want to offer. Turned out people were buying them at my cost without me knowing it since at-cost sells don't show in the sells report. Again, dead fish in face. That has since been corrected as well (I hope).
I'm eagerly awaiting my next Bone-Head move
I'd really like to try faux painted canvas prints or canvas with print actually stroked. I'm not really sure how to go about it or which vendor to use.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I really don't think the average person knows that copying & scanning photos is basically theft. ... Another person said to me, "No we don't want to buy any photo's, we're just downloading them off you site for free". I couldn't have been more shocked if you slapped me in the face with a dead fish.
I had a parent at the kart track last week tell me with a gleeful face how he took one of my photos and made a translucent background for his stationary. He hasn't bought any photos off me... Hmmm... He was telling me how good it came out, and I'm sure he believed he was complimenting me and the quality of that image and didn't realize he was admitting to theft. I was in shock and had no idea what to say. I had a young teenage racer ask me if he could get his images without "proof" written on them. I quoted him a price that was more than reasonable and he said he'd get back to me. Haven't heard from him yet.
It is somewhat commonplace (sad as that is, you young'uns listening?) to hear of the young people stealing images that took you time and a huge financial investment to make. It is surprising to hear it from the parents.
Many valid points have been made here. THere are certainly differing opinions about the business model and what works. I have only been doing this since the fall. I have looked at the elasticity of demand for the 4x6 prints at 2,4, and 6 dollars. What I am finding in my online business model is that I am not making money selling 4x6 prints, regardless of where they are priced. I am, however, making some progress selling larger composite and poster prints. I am just about giving the 4x6 prints away, as a loss leader, to get my name established, and to show the quality of my work, which is improving. Prople are paying real money for my stuff. Not everyone will, but those who want it, are paying for it. I do not have to give it away. I have chosen to price the prints aggressively. So far, it seems to be working. The good thing is that I can change and adapt.
I reall do not have a vendetta against the guy. I don't even dislike him.
I am not out to hurt his business. He does so little on the internet that it is not even in his equation. He is a portrait guy. He shoots sports for the yearbook. He doesn't even seem interested in it. Maybe he isn't. I see it as an opportunity.
I am working with the boosters, and I have sold them some 16x20s of the seniors at a "professional photographer's" price. My objective now is to approach the other non-school events: baseball, recreational soccer, and others. I am working on the proposals now. I know that the value I provide is in the eye of the beholder. I am proving myself each day. I have found that my original model didn't work, that the on-line print business is low profit, low volume. So I am changing.
I appreciate all the candor and straight talk. It is thought provoking.
Sparky
owie MBA terms like lose leader and business models......
Yeah for the most part no one really wants 4 x 6, i offer them to establish a name as well.
Good to know you are thinking about how it works in terms of a business perspective.
I knew those MBA classes would work for something.
Looking at your site, I wonder if the karts, being tangible and expensive, compared to a child, (we won't go there re: expense!) makes a difference in the size prints they purchase?
I am thinking out loud... the cost to run a kart is significant - vs. a child playing sports - who we are used to spending a lot of money on... but we probably would spend it on the children anyway...So, it is not as big a deal, as say, the expense of the kart. Our friends see our children, but how many of them see the kart? Not that our children are less important, but many of our friends have children, but how many have a racing kart?
There is probably some psych explanation for it all...
same thinking could go with motorcross....its an expensive sport to particpate in, so to begin with you have to have a decent amount of disposable cash to partcipate in (hockey as well) unlike hoops and baseball where the cost to particpate is much much lower.
(nice mention of pull strategy.....I am taking my final two MBA classes this semester, on a capstone class and I dont think I have ever seen soo many business "terms" in a photograhpy thread)
same thinking could go with motorcross....its an expensive sport to particpate in, so to begin with you have to have a decent amount of disposable cash to partcipate in (hockey as well) unlike hoops and baseball where the cost to particpate is much much lower.
(nice mention of pull strategy.....I am taking my final two MBA classes this semester, on a capstone class and I dont think I have ever seen soo many business "terms" in a photograhpy thread)
OOPS
I don't know where those all came from - I thought those brain cells were long gone...
Having read this thread I began wondering if.......those of you still offering the 4 X 6's are imbedding your logo into them....not actually a copyright per se...but your name and web addy or your name and business phone number...remember if your selling them for a buck99 then they should be true advertising and that doesnot take up much room.........
Having read this thread I began wondering if.......those of you still offering the 4 X 6's are imbedding your logo into them....not actually a copyright per se...but your name and web addy or your name and business phone number...remember if your selling them for a buck99 then they should be true advertising and that doesnot take up much room.........
No, but I keep hoping Smugmug will offer back printing.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
but no one reads backprinting.....I found this out recently when some one I did senior pics for went into a processor and had copies made of the senior pics and they had to turn them upside down to scan them.......It only takes a couple of second in PS to add the text to a lower right or left corner (and I bet some one that is better with PS than I am {that doesn't take much} could actually make it into an action........ and 50 yrs from now they will still know who shot them.......
but no one reads backprinting.....I found this out recently when some one I did senior pics for went into a processor and had copies made of the senior pics and they had to turn them upside down to scan them.......It only takes a couple of second in PS to add the text to a lower right or left corner (and I bet some one that is better with PS than I am {that doesn't take much} could actually make it into an action........ and 50 yrs from now they will still know who shot them.......
I have an action that does exactly that, though I've been told my font is too small. Good thing about the action is it works correctly on either landscape or portrait orientation, which is way nice. Try it -- record an action that adds a text layer and does nothing else.
I have an action that does exactly that, though I've been told my font is too small. Good thing about the action is it works correctly on either landscape or portrait orientation, which is way nice. Try it -- record an action that adds a text layer and does nothing else.
Indeed, so do I. I find that the best way to get proper positioning irrespective of orientation is with a "place" command, though.
I shoot motocross races locally (and write articles for a district magazine as well) and there is one sure fire way to find out if someone likes your work better.....charge the same price as the other guys. Then you will know the truth. Getting your ego stroked, and I like it too, won't buy a new lens, but profit will.
As for putting your logo on the prints....forget that as a sure fire way of letting people know who did the work, or keeping copies from being made. Scan it, PS it, gone. Scan it, print it at home...copies for all. The price of the digital age.
Kids are happy to look at school sport shots, do a screen capture, print it, and post it in their locker. If you (we) don't watermark it, right click protect it, turn off links, etc....someone has that photo. Kind of depressing.....:cry
Kids are happy to look at school sport shots, do a screen capture, print it, and post it in their locker. If you (we) don't watermark it, right click protect it, turn off links, etc....someone has that photo. Kind of depressing.....:cry
I'm for better watermarking here as well The big PROOF takes away from the image.
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Comments
I don't get that feeling with the parents who are buying them. They just seem to want them for the scrapbooks and senior "shrines" at the graduation parties.
Maybe the kids are scanning them, I am not sure about that.
But, they represent about 95% of ths individual small prints I have sold to date. And, I sell a lot more (10x) at $2 than at $4 or higher. And $4 x (not many) < $2 x (more) !
My business got stronger when I decided that I was not going to sell enough 4x6 to make a difference, and to let them go for less. At least they are getting the images out there - and hopefully, creating some "pull" marketing.
So, I promote the bigger stuff - the value-add stuff - that they can't do. And, it seems to be working...
Looking at your site, I wonder if the karts, being tangible and expensive, compared to a child, (we won't go there re: expense!) makes a difference in the size prints they purchase?
I am thinking out loud... the cost to run a kart is significant - vs. a child playing sports - who we are used to spending a lot of money on... but we probably would spend it on the children anyway...So, it is not as big a deal, as say, the expense of the kart. Our friends see our children, but how many of them see the kart? Not that our children are less important, but many of our friends have children, but how many have a racing kart?
There is probably some psych explanation for it all...
Tonight I had someone contact me to get some shots done. We talked for a while, discussed what kind of settings they wanted, etc. When I finally quoted them a package price, they balked. Fine. I quoted them a smaller package and shoot. Still had issues. They told me they didn't WANT to pay me, and that instead of pay, they'd rather (and I quote) "Just find a friend who has a good camera."
I could've done it for free and built my portfolio, or even taken a fraction of what I'd normally charge. But then I'd be undervaluing my equipment, my time, my skill, and other photographers, both more and less skilled than myself. One of the best quotes I ever saw was "Working for free only gets you more unpaid work."
SEEING THE WORLD IN A WHOLE NEW LIGHT...
http://www.imag-e-nation.net
I really don't think the average person knows that copying & scanning photos is basically theft. I had a grandfather show up at a game with his new t-shirt sporting a transfer of my shot. Do I offer t-shirts, yes, would mine look better, yes, could he have been anymore proud of his shirt, no. Needless to say I didn't say anything to him. Another person said to me, "No we don't want to buy any photo's, we're just downloading them off you site for free". I couldn't have been more shocked if you slapped me in the face with a dead fish.
I'm offering my 4x6's at a nominal price ($3) but I'm affraid to try the loss leader approach b/c it would it end up a loss for me. But that is my fault. I'm not to good at the sales end and pushing the highend products.
Have you tried any canvas prints?
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Having samples has made the biggest impact. I have three sizes of available to show - 8x10, 11x14 and 16x20. So far, they have chosen the 16x20 size mostly, but the 11x14 is a good size for the grandparents!
I was going crazy with trying to get parents to buy anything larger than a 4x6. I had them priced at $5-6 initially, and sold very few. Tried them at $4, not much better. After reading cambler's philosophy, I lowered the price to $1.99 and sales increased significantly. We still are not talking large volumes, but they increased, generating momentum.
After they got the 4x6s in their hands, then they started thinking about the larger stuff.
The satisfaction I see on the parent's faces sure helps me to justify the time I am investing. And the kids love to see themselves in the action photos!
About the downloading off your site, Do you know how do limit what they see, sizes, disable right-click-menu, no originals, etc. ? You can at least deter them.
Sparky
Yeah, if your talking about protecting in the customizing section. I've done that.
Also another lesson I learned the hard way was in custom pro pricing. I left the fields blank for item's I didn't want to offer. Turned out people were buying them at my cost without me knowing it since at-cost sells don't show in the sells report. Again, dead fish in face. That has since been corrected as well (I hope).
I'm eagerly awaiting my next Bone-Head move
I'd really like to try faux painted canvas prints or canvas with print actually stroked. I'm not really sure how to go about it or which vendor to use.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
It is somewhat commonplace (sad as that is, you young'uns listening?) to hear of the young people stealing images that took you time and a huge financial investment to make. It is surprising to hear it from the parents.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
owie MBA terms like lose leader and business models......
Yeah for the most part no one really wants 4 x 6, i offer them to establish a name as well.
Good to know you are thinking about how it works in terms of a business perspective.
I knew those MBA classes would work for something.
same thinking could go with motorcross....its an expensive sport to particpate in, so to begin with you have to have a decent amount of disposable cash to partcipate in (hockey as well) unlike hoops and baseball where the cost to particpate is much much lower.
(nice mention of pull strategy.....I am taking my final two MBA classes this semester, on a capstone class and I dont think I have ever seen soo many business "terms" in a photograhpy thread)
OOPS
I don't know where those all came from - I thought those brain cells were long gone...
No, but I keep hoping Smugmug will offer back printing.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
You and me, both!
Cheerleading: http://www.CheerPhoto.com
Blog: http://cambler.livejournal.com
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Indeed, so do I. I find that the best way to get proper positioning irrespective of orientation is with a "place" command, though.
Cheerleading: http://www.CheerPhoto.com
Blog: http://cambler.livejournal.com
As for putting your logo on the prints....forget that as a sure fire way of letting people know who did the work, or keeping copies from being made. Scan it, PS it, gone. Scan it, print it at home...copies for all. The price of the digital age.
Kids are happy to look at school sport shots, do a screen capture, print it, and post it in their locker. If you (we) don't watermark it, right click protect it, turn off links, etc....someone has that photo. Kind of depressing.....:cry
I'm for better watermarking here as well
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"