300D or 10D?
I'm using a G3 right now. I'd like the images to have more clarity. I suspect the combination of the lenses and the sensor are conspiring to reduce the quality of the image.
In short, despite my modest skills, I'm ready to upgrade. The 300D makes the most sense. It's the next step in cost and performance. But then I see the amazing crispness and detail in the 10D shots posted around here,and I experience a strange sensation that my shrink has diagnosed as envy. I also would like the option of taking action shots, and the 300D's small buffer doesn't really allow for that.
So I'm torn. Common sense and step improvement? Or buy something over my head and hope to grow into it?
In short, despite my modest skills, I'm ready to upgrade. The 300D makes the most sense. It's the next step in cost and performance. But then I see the amazing crispness and detail in the 10D shots posted around here,and I experience a strange sensation that my shrink has diagnosed as envy. I also would like the option of taking action shots, and the 300D's small buffer doesn't really allow for that.
So I'm torn. Common sense and step improvement? Or buy something over my head and hope to grow into it?
Sid.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
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Go with the 10D.
Mirror lockup, flash exposure compensation...
that's enough there to justify it, just bite the bullet and get the 10D.
I was out shopping and at the end of it all, I went waaaay over my budget and had to have a little clearing sale to afford what I ended up really wanting.
Things worked out for me too, and I'm happy as can be.
Go with the black camera and make it happen for yourself somehow.
In the end you won't regret it.
Gotta go with JMD here. Spent the week with a 10D flopping around on my shoulder, and I knew I made the right decision over the 300D. Not that the Rebel is a bad camera...in fact, I'm sure you could make it sing, but you have to ask yourself if the price difference is worth the tradeoffs. I asked that question and came to my own conclusion. Your conclusion may be different. You can't go wrong either way, really.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Mirror lock up is a feature on upper end SLR type cameras (like the 10D), not the smaller point and shoot range finders.
Quick definitions:
SLR: Single Lens Reflex like all of the 35mm cameras "of old". When you look in the viewfinder you are looking through a pentaprism and out the actual lens you are shooting with. Take the lens off and you see a mirror at an angle that reflects the image up through your prism to your eye. The quality of the prism determines how bright your viewfinder image is. The cheaper models (Canon Rebel) have solid acrylic prisms, the more expensive have a series of mirrors.
Rangefinder: Is the typical point and shoot where you are looking through a separate little window, not the "taking" lens. There are also high end rangefinders (Leica) so don't get hung up on that. Sometimes, depending on lens, the difference in view of the inch or less between the viewing window and the lens can make a difference in what actually gets into the picture. That is why the better rangefinders have faint lines in the window to help you frame your shot (parallax correction). This is a case where you should actually read the manual, especially if that beautiful flower close up ended up only being half a flower in the print. What you see may not be what you get.
Mirror Lock Up (now that we know what the heck the mirror is) is a great feature that lets you lock the mirror in the up position to reduce vibration, obviously only in the SLR. When the SLR takes a picture the mirro rises (slaps) and then the shutter behid it opens and closes. During medium long exposures the slight vibration of the mirror impacting on the upstroke can blur the picture. This is really only an issue from about a 15th to a 1/4 sec exposure. The vibration is very short and longer than a quarter sec it has died out and the incoming light will override any initial blurring. If the vibration lasts for 1/10th sec and you need 1 second to expose the image the first 1/10th will have no impact on the final.
Whew! Sorry about the long winded reply but I finally found a question that I knew the answer to since it was not purely digital.
All that and I forgot the buffer question. Yes, I believe the buffer basically holds the print after you take it and before the camera writes it to the card. My Nikon p/s is nice, but in high res it is a good 5 sec. between pics. The higher end SLR cameras have a buffer that will allow 8 shots per sec and now getting up to 40 before it has to take a breather. The number and speed, of course, depends on resolution setting.
(I have pushing 30 years of film and darkroom experience, but new to digital so if I missed anything please correct, no worries here.)
Jeff
One problem with the Canon 10D is availability. The camera stores around here (Michigan) have waiting lists for the bodies and the stores are only gettting one or two cameras a month. I hope this changes after the PMA show next month.
What you said, Tim. The buffer matters to me so I can go to an event and shoot moving objects/people, and hope that at least one in a sequence is in focus. From my perspective, I need a couple of features: quick camera response to the trigger, and the digital equivalent of a motor drive so that I can track a moving object.
The 300D makes so much sense for my skill level... but I hate to lay out a grand and not have functionality I'm pretty sure I'll want.
I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether a camera like the 10D will meet such a need, or is overkill for my skill level and isn't really all that good at action shots anyway.
I now appreciate the value of mirror lockup, and flash compensation... but those seem to be slightly esoteric issues for my level of photography. I think.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
The store guy opined that the 300D would kill the 10D's market. But that's the kind of thing sales folks are prone to saying when they know they can get a 300D, but aren't sure about a 10D.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I may be wrong, but if you are on a tripod and using and IS lens, you should disable the IS feature per the instruction manual, which would mean that
the mirrow lock up would be a definite assest.
That is how I understand using IS on a tripod, turn it off.
If Canon replaces the 1D in a month just go ahead and spend the extra $$ to get it and worry no more about the best camera to get, or get a deal on a good used 1D.
Uh-oh, yer ramping up on me, Patch!
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Think back to when you bought your GS. Did it seem like overkill for your riding skills at the time?
I'm sure the digital rebel is a fine camera, but since you are already going to be into it for a grand, why not go a little further and get a much more robust and capable body? You've already got a great P&S. If you plan to get that sexy 70-200L IS lens, you'll appreciate the extra heft of the 10D for balance.
JMHO.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Hutch
Yeah, I really really dig it. I was intimidated by the price initially, but with every shot, I become more and more convinced it was the right choice. I checked out the 1Ds too, but holy mackeral...I could get a 10D and a good motorcycle for the price. The lack of a multiplier is very tempting, as is the resolution, but I just can't justfy that price unless I can make money off of it...which I probably can't.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Just a little note here-
Mirror lockup is also a major asset in macography.
You wanna get close?
Going to use extension tubes or reversed lenses?
Have a dedicated macro lens and plan to use it?
The up close and personal nature of macro work is another great reason to lock that mirror up before you trip the shutter.
Every slr should have that feature.
An IS lens might do something for mirror slap, but as it's originating -at- the sensor, I doubt it'll be as effective as MLO.
About IS and tripod use, I've heard from numerous photographers, amatuers and pros, that the IS works great on the tripod, and is a great thing to have on board, even in the studio. Just what I've heard though. I haven't done any comparisons with my 70-200IS yet to confirm or deny that with my own experience. Someone here should give that one a hack. I just keep the IS on and forget about it.
And Wax.
Patch is dead right about the 1D.
Just get one.
You won't regret it.
I flipflopped on the 10D/1D thing for months and went with the 1D.
The only thing I'm missing on is super long exposure stuff, but for what it's worth, I don't need that from this camera, if I'm going to go out and keep a shutter open for very long, I can do it on film with the F1 and not have to worry about it.
Much better for action shots too, and it's tough as a claw hammer.
8FPS can be really cool, especially if you want to shoot fast sporting type subjects, like motorcycles or bicycle racing.
Which reminds me, it's Cyclocross season, and I have a 300/2.8 prime lens.
Might just have to get out for the races next weekend!!
The features of the 1D that really put me over the fence in it's favor are it's focusing system and viewfinder.
The thing focuses soooo fast. Unbelievable.
And the viewfinder is wonderful. Super bright.
And you have nine choices for the focusing screen.
I have the split image screen and run it all the time.
No metering problems at all, and I can actually see what's happening with focus, like when I'm running one of my 'special' lenses or want to see the effect of aperture on focus and DOF during DOF preview (stopdown mode...)
But really, the 300 is a great camera and you probabally wouldn't miss these kinds of features if you never got ahold of something besides the DRebel.
Great stuff.
One question: You said the 1D doesn't have a super long exposure setting. Not sure what I'm misunderstanding.
Shutter speed range: Bulb, 30 - 1/16,000 sec
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
The 1D does indeed have -the capability- to do long exposures (as well as bulb).
The issue with the 1D is that it sees with a different kind of eyeball. It uses a CCD instead of a CMOS sensor. The main reason for this (seems to be) the super fast 'grab and dump' of images they are able to achieve with the CCD (think 8fps).
With long exposures and the 1D come noise. I have done a fair bit of super low light and night time shooting with mine, and have been able to get mine to show this issue, but I was trying to make it happen. The sensor needs an amplifier to get the info from it's receptors into a usable message blasting out of itself and to the buffer. It gets warm with use, and with long exposures, it gets warm enough to affect the sensor's message of what color is being seen, and reports that to the image in the form of the color purple coming into the upper corners of the image (there are actually two amplifiers, one near each top corner of the sensor).
Go do a bit of web searching on 'purple corners' around the topic of the 1D.
There are ways to deal with this issue if you really need to do long exposure work with the 1D, the most popular seems to be dark frame subtraction.
This very feature kept me on the fence for quite some time.
Now having run the camera through about two thousand exposures, I don't feel as if I'm missing a thing.
Super long shutter times for things like astronomical photography or late night city scapes are best done with a CMOS camera or on film.
Hope that helps.
The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor and should not have these problems with long exposures???
Am I correct or is there something else I'm missing?
Hutch
It sees things differently too though.
And the price...
But it does have it's own noise issues.
You'd be better off doing your own homework on the 1Ds though, I have done little research on it.
Hutch
You can buy a lot of glass for the price difference between a 10D or 1D and the 1Ds.
Unless you're shooting interiors of homes and don't want to do stitching in photoshop, there is glass out there wide enough to get your image on the sensor.
You can have the 1D and a fast 300mm lens for the same price as a 1Ds.
Or a 1D and a bag full of other good lenses.
or a brand new KLR 650.
If you are thinking of spending big on a Canon body, wait a month until PMA. Hopefully Canon will be announcing a replacement for the 1D. Hopefully it will have the performance of the 1D with added resolution and features. I would think the price would be between the 1D and 1Ds. We should know in a month.
Helps a lot, thanks. I noticed that dpreview mentioned 'banding' in low-light shooting. The purple corners is a new one on me. Thanks for the explanation on CCD versus CMOS.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I was just at a camera shop last week asking to play around with the 10D and Rebel to see if I can realistically justify spending the price difference. He told me the 10D was moot because they're no longer in production. It will be difficult to get them. There is a replacement due to be introduced "soon" (a month or two).
There's a waiting list for the Rebel, too, despite Canon producing them in massive quantities. I'm told it'll be a couple of weeks before I get mine.
I think I would have preferred the 10D for its superior body but the EF-S lenses should be nice (more compact) and the 10D doesn't support them. I know the 10D is also functionally superior but the only feature it has that I would have really liked is faster sequential shooting/larger shot buffer.
It's gonna be a hell of a step up from my Olympus C2500L in any case. That's been a heck of a workhorse camera but the lens system was way too limited. I'm hoping this thing puts my film SLRs entirely to rest.
jim
jimf@frostbytes.com
These were past announcements from Canon (dates are fairly close PMA being the announcement location).
D30 announced Jan/Feb 2000 available end of 2000
D60 announced Feb 2002
10D announced Feb 2003
Something new for Feb 2004??? I expect (hope for) a new pro DSLR, but no reason they could also not announce a 10D replacement. They are very difficult if not impossible to find. While they are at it why not a replacement for three bodies the 10D, 1D and 1Ds? We can hope can't we?