Would like to see a smugmug policy change

pmaland

I ran across some photos in the "popular today" section that I believe exist soley for the purpose of arousing sick people. Smugmug's response is that they don't violate smugmug's policies. If that's the case, I'd like to get some people together to request that the policy be changed to say we don't want these photos on the same site, much less the same "popular photos" page as our photos. If you agree, please contact smugmug support or reply to this thread. Thanks!

Here are the photos I'm referring to:

http://youth.smugmug.com/


- Phil

Andy

Hi Phil,

The purpose of that site is for that photographer to earn a living. We appreciate that you may not like the fact that there are child models out there, modeling for clothing companies, all sorts of companies, actually - but as far as I can tell, the site owner has the right to photograph those models, and promote his work.

If you can find specific photos that violate our policies, please do let us know.

Thank you for posting!

pmaland

Andy wrote:

Hi Phil,

The purpose of that site is for that photographer to earn a living. We appreciate that you may not like the fact that there are child models out there, modeling for clothing companies, all sorts of companies, actually - but as far as I can tell, the site owner has the right to photograph those models, and promote his work.

If you can find specific photos that violate our policies, please do let us know.

Thank you for posting!

Andy, if the SmugMug company doesn't like the business this person is doing, let me quote from your Terms:

Smugmug may terminate your account or your access to and use of the Services, with or without cause at any time and effective immediately, at Smugmug's sole discretion, for any reason, including but not limited to your failure to conform with these Terms.

The email response from help@smugmug.com, while it came from Andy directly, should be representative of the SmugMug company. In it you said:

Personally, I agree with you

and

The photo in question is certainly questionable

By letting this guys photos get elevated to the popular photos page, you make smugmug look like it tolerates suggestive photos of young boys being hosted on their site. I can't believe this is the image you want for your company.

- Phil

DavidTO

I don't get it. These kids are trying to get work as models, and this photographer is helping them build their portfolio. I mean, do you boycott Target because they use child models?

Khaos

I think the issue that someone thinks something bad is going on lends more to what's going on in the someone's head rather than anything actually bad going on.

Andy

Where would it stop? Should we cancel accounts for people who show photos of people wearing fur? Eating Tuna? Driving SUVs?

The photographer is not doing anything illegal as far as I can tell, nor is he violating our Terms of Service. If you can show us otherwise, we'll certainly look into it and do something about it.

We don't "let" photos get popular, you and the millions of visitors each day to SmugMug do that.

I hope this helps.

Elysium

I ran across some photos in the dgrin forums today that I believe exist soley for the purpose of arousing sick people. Smugmug's response is that they don't violate smugmug's policies. If that's the case, I'd like to get some people together to request that the policy be changed to say we don't want these photos on the same site, much less the same "popular photos" page as our photos. If you agree, please contact smugmug support or reply to this thread. Thanks!

Here are the photos I'm referring to:

*** moderator edit, link removal ***

-Alex

DanielB

Elysium wrote:

I ran across some photos in the dgrin forums today that I believe exist soley for the purpose of arousing sick people. Smugmug's response is that they don't violate smugmug's policies. If that's the case, I'd like to get some people together to request that the policy be changed to say we don't want these photos on the same site, much less the same "popular photos" page as our photos. If you agree, please contact smugmug support or reply to this thread. Thanks!

Here are the photos I'm referring to:

*** moderator edit, link removal ***

-Alex

the pregnant mothers? or the baby's behind? if either of those than you've got some thin-skin and you need to just ignore some of those photos.

Elysium

DanielB wrote:

the pregnant mothers? or the baby's behind? if either of those than you've got some thin-skin and you need to just ignore some of those photos.

Congrats, you win the prize.

pmaland

Holy crap

DanielB wrote:

the pregnant mothers? or the baby's behind? if either of those than you've got some thin-skin and you need to just ignore some of those photos.

I can't believe I'm reading this sh*t. If that were your son, would you honestly allow this sick pervert to post them on the internet, much less sell a CD full of those pictures to other "talent scouts"?

Do you honestly believe he is in this to start modeling careers? Why are 90% of those pictures of young BOYS ONLY, with no shirt, shorts, and legs spread showing off their crotch? You honestly think this guy is a serious model agent? And selling CDs full of pictures is how he tries to get his clients a career? Yeah, 'cause I'm sure that's how it works.

I'm not gonna even get into your stupid-ass comment about my photos.

pmaland

Wow

Andy wrote:

Where would it stop? Should we cancel accounts for people who show photos of people wearing fur? Eating Tuna? Driving SUVs?

Yeah, because those are all the same as child porn. And, yes, I realize there is no obvious nudity, but this guy is up to no good. I never thought I'd have this much of a philosophical disagreement with smugmug. I'd really love to hear from someone at smugmug besides Andy on this.

Andy

pmaland wrote:

Yeah, because those are all the same as child porn. And, yes, I realize there is no obvious nudity, but this guy is up to no good. I never thought I'd have this much of a philosophical disagreement with smugmug. I'd really love to hear from someone at smugmug besides Andy on this.

First - please watch your language, we conduct only civil debate here and will not tolerate any outbursts, period. And we don't allow personal attacks.

Second - DanielB is 15 years old himself, and he didn't say anything about your photos, as near as I can tell?

Third - all I've been saying is that you have to bring proof to us. We can't just shut down a site because we or you don't agree with it.

Fourth - we don't KNOW of any child porn. Up to no good? If you're right - bring it on, otherwise, it's an unfounded accusation.

But all we do know as of now is that it's all on the up and up. If you can prove otherwise, we'll be on it in a heartbeat - but until then, they have the right to post their photos.

For the record, I have 4 children myself, 3 boys and a girl. Ages 7 up to 19. I don't understand this sort of child modeling thing at all. I don't like many of the photos, there are some that I'd say are provocative. But have you looked into the child beauty contest industry? It's everywhere.

pmaland

Andy wrote:

Second - DanielB is 15 years old himself, and he didn't say anything about your photos, as near as I can tell?

Sorry, targeted the wrong person.

Andy wrote:

Third - all I've been saying is that you have to bring proof to us. We can't just shut down a site because we or you don't agree with it.

Your vaunted Terms say otherwise, as I referenced in an earlier post. Perhaps you should read it and them again.

Fourth - we don't KNOW of any child porn. Up to no good? If you're right - bring it on, otherwise, it's an unfounded accusation.

These are kids. Do you think they read the comments, like:

3. | made by: hello | on: Feb 06, 2006 3:59pm PDT | rating:

yeah show us your sweet body

...but until then, they have the right to post their photos.

Wrong again. Smugmug specifically says they have the right to terminate your account for any reason.

I don't understand this sort of child modeling thing at all. I don't like many of the photos, there are some that I'd say are provocative. But have you looked into the child beauty contest industry? It's everywhere.

Ahh, it's everywhere, so it's fine to have it on smugmug too. Great.

Andy

pmaland wrote:

Ahh, it's everywhere, so it's fine to have it on smugmug too. Great.

I have made some inquiries. But again, please, if you can provide some meat around your allegations, that would be wonderful.

I can assure you that this topic will be discussed here at SmugMug this week.

Thanks again for posting, and telling us how you feel.

Baldy

pmaland wrote:

I'd really love to hear from someone at smugmug besides Andy on this.

Hi pmaland,

I'm from SmugMug and I share your concern. At the risk of enraging some of our subscribers, I'll confess that personally, when I see them on our popular page I cringe and give them thumbs-down.

I'd love to believe its purely modeling for future legitimate careers, but from the comments left you can see that at least some viewers are making suggestive comments. Of course, they do that for Rafael Nadal too, in droves, but at least he's 19, a teen idol, and mostly girls are leaving the comments.

How and when to take things like this down is turning out to be a tough issue because we have people write to us outraged about lots of galleries. YouTube is going through a huge stink now because they've empowered users to flag stuff as offensive and legitimate videos get blown away.

Honestly, to me this looked creepy and suspicious enough to talk to our law firm about, but their response was my opinion of what's creepy and suspicious does not mean it violates our terms of service.

I will speak to the owner of the galleries and perhaps the right thing to do is make them private.

Thanks,
Chris

YouthTalent

Ok, Lets see if we can come back to reality here.

I run this site, and have been on here since Jan. 2005, No one has ever questioned anything about my site till now.

All the models have Signed Parental(Guardian) Permission to have their photo's posted and they in no way violate any laws. All of the models do get paid, as they should for their work!

As i can see some people have an issue with young models, but I don't understand why? You think of them as young boys being exploited? This makes no sense to me. These young models have chosen to be in this field for a future career in modeling/acting, their Parents have agreed!

All you can think of is sick perverted stuff? I see nothing wrong or perverted about it, its simply youth model/actor photography!

As for the popular photo part, People choose what photo's are popular, No one has any control over that.

You also have to remember, there are lots of teen girls that are fans of theirs and as teen girls can say how much they like them in the comments, but if the comments are out of line, they are removed. If you find any comments that you consider a problem, please tell me and I will take care of it. You can PM me anytime.

Andy

YouthTalent wrote:

All you can think of is sick perverted stuff? I see nothing wrong or perverted about it, its simply youth model/actor photography!

Hi YouthTalent, thanks for responding to my email, and for posting here. I'm not sure how this shot is anything but subjective. In fact, I feel it's a magnet for undesireable types of people. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever say this. The photo, and many others on your site, in MY OPINION, crosses the line of social decency, and possibly worse.

You are a pro, trying to promote youth modeling talent. And part of my job is to represent our pros - which I do fervently. But in MY opinion, the best thing you could do for these kids and our society is do it in a way that's tasteful and not suggestive. Kids today are already bombarded with sex from many outlets - music, movies, tv, the internet. Photos like some of yours objectify these kids, and can be seen the wrong way, and invite the wrong sorts of people.

At SmugMug, we talk about these things as a team - I asked Baldy to step in last night, and I'm glad he posted.

DavidTO

YouthTalent wrote:

Ok, Lets see if we can come back to reality here....<snip>...

So I've looked closer, and...


Youth, if your business is about getting modeling work for aspiring models, why are you selling DVD's of them? That makes no sense to me. Modeling agents aren't gonna buy DVDs. They'll ask for a portfolio, you'll send it, and they'll cast from there. Who would buy DVDs of young boys they don't know posing suggestively? Or DVDs of boys pretending they're working at Chippendales?


Yeah, well, I can't say whether your site breaks the TOS or answer any legal matter on this, since I'm just a bystander in this conversation...but I do retract my earlier post defending your site.

peestandingup

Yeah, I personally wouldnt say the site breaks any laws or rules, but the DVD is kinda...weird.

I also think anything can be exploited, nomatter what it is. Someone somewhere is gonna have a problem with certain stuff. So, im sure there are perverts out there who are really digging this site & ordering the DVDs & photos. But, im sure there are also talent scouts & teen girls who watch the site too. Have you ever been to a little girls beauty pageant?? They are insane! Those girls dress up in ball gowns, swimsuits & all that stuff, parading around like little adults. So, does that mean we should shut them down too? Because im sure there are perverts who look at those pictures & order those DVDs too. Just take a look around the net & you will find TONS of pictures just like these of those girls posing.

Its called tolerance. I dont personally like the site either, but as far as I can tell, its not breaking any laws.

dmc

peestandingup wrote:

Yeah, I personally wouldnt say the site breaks any laws or rules, but the DVD is kinda...weird.

I also think anything can be exploited, nomatter what it is. Someone somewhere is gonna have a problem with certain stuff. So, im sure there are perverts out there who are really digging this site & ordering the DVDs & photos. But, im sure there are also talent scouts & teen girls who watch the site too. Have you ever been to a little girls beauty pageant?? They are insane! Those girls dress up in ball gowns, swimsuits & all that stuff, parading around like little adults. So, does that mean we should shut them down too? Because im sure there are perverts who look at those pictures & order those DVDs too. Just take a look around the net & you will find TONS of pictures just like these of those girls posing.

Its called tolerance. I dont personally like the site either, but as far as I can tell, its not breaking any laws.

You don't have to break any laws for smugmug to decide they don't want it...

I absolutely would shut down "little girl" beauty pagents (and shame on those parents)

TOLERANCE???? are you kidding?

I've harped on this before, I see smugmug searches on the words "kids" and "pool" and "beach" all the time, then look at the pictures they click on. A kid with any skin showing is apparently something to the wack jobs out there. Have you seen those Dateline specials?

I say NO to tolerance for this stuff....

YouthTalent

Andy wrote:

Hi YouthTalent, thanks for responding to my email, and for posting here. I'm not sure how this shot is anything but subjective. In fact, I feel it's a magnet for undesireable types of people. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever say this. The photo, and many others on your site, in MY OPINION, crosses the line of social decency, and possibly worse.

You are a pro, trying to promote youth modeling talent. And part of my job is to represent our pros - which I do fervently. But in MY opinion, the best thing you could do for these kids and our society is do it in a way that's tasteful and not suggestive. Kids today are already bombarded with sex from many outlets - music, movies, tv, the internet. Photos like some of yours objectify these kids, and can be seen the wrong way, and invite the wrong sorts of people.

At SmugMug, we talk about these things as a team - I asked Baldy to step in last night, and I'm glad he posted.

Ok, its only a pose, that's it, I hate when people judge 1 or 2 shoots out of 100 and say, oh that looks provocative. You have to look at the complete series to see that its a normal series of photo shoots for the model.

I work in this business and been for many years, its all work, promotion of modeling careers.

Each model has a signed release by their Parent/Guardian to have their photos promoted, they are paid for their work.

Now you go to google and do a search for pre-teen modeling, you will see all kinds of disgusting photos that don't even compare to that photo you listed.

Were do you draw the line for photo censoring here? How about this:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/68913692-L.jpg
and
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/63231734-M.jpg
and
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/54640202-M.jpg
and
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/54612428-M.jpg

I could go on and on.

Sex perverts are everywhere, do we have to hide all the photo's that seem to them as provocative, and the rest of us in the photography/modeling business as just normal photo shoots?

Andy

YouthTalent wrote:

I could go on and on.

Thanks for those links. Some of them clearly violate our terms - however, without site links (nickname.smugmug.com we can't notify the owners of those sites. If you could please send that info to us we'd appreciate it - help@smugmug.com Thanks!

YouthTalent

DavidTO wrote:

So I've looked closer, and...


Youth, if your business is about getting modeling work for aspiring models, why are you selling DVD's of them? That makes no sense to me. Modeling agents aren't gonna buy DVDs. They'll ask for a portfolio, you'll send it, and they'll cast from there. Who would buy DVDs of young boys they don't know posing suggestively? Or DVDs of boys pretending they're working at Chippendales?


Yeah, well, I can't say whether your site breaks the TOS or answer any legal matter on this, since I'm just a bystander in this conversation...but I do retract my earlier post defending your site.

When you are in the acting business as a youth, you have a signed contract to provide acting services to do movies. All the youth models get paid a very good amount to be in movies.
Whats the problem of promoting the youth actors in DVDs? They need to make money just like the rest of us.

The modeling DVD's are same way. They get paid, I get paid a small commission for selling them. This is a business, we all have to make money, don't we?

DavidTO

YouthTalent wrote:

When you are in the acting business as a youth, you have a signed contract to provide acting services to do movies. All the youth models get paid a very good amount to be in movies.
Whats the problem of promoting the youth actors in DVDs? They need to make money just like the rest of us.

The modeling DVD's are same way. They get paid, I get paid a small commission for selling them. This is a business, we all have to make money, don't we?

Chris Rock said, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. You can drive with your feet, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And my question still stands: who would buy those DVDs? What interest would I have in looking at bathing suit shots of someone else's kid?

dmc

YouthTalent wrote:

... They need to make money just like the rest of us.
...
This is a business, we all have to make money, don't we?

:tough

(I always wanted to use this one!)

YouthTalent

DavidTO wrote:

Chris Rock said, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. You can drive with your feet, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And my question still stands: who would buy those DVDs? What interest would I have in looking at bathing suit shots of someone else's kid?

I don't know why you don't get it, If their parents didn't want others to see them in photo shoots, they would have never signed the release form.

So that means, that all of the thousands of kid photos that are here in shorts and bathing suits, its wrong for people to look at other people's kids?

Anybody can buy them, You may not have an interest, but others may, and I may not have a interest in what you like, but others may.

Anyone can buy the CD's and DVD's, the money goes to the youth models and everyone else involved in promoting them.

DavidTO

YouthTalent wrote:

Anybody can buy them, You may not have an interest, but others may,

but why?

YouthTalent

DavidTO wrote:

I don't get it. These kids are trying to get work as models, and this photographer is helping them build their portfolio. I mean, do you boycott Target because they use child models?

I'm surprised DavidTO, You are the one who originally defended this.

Your answer you posted was exactly what we are doing!

Every store or business that sells youth clothing, etc. needs models.

But i guess you didn't know anyone can buy the photo's? Is it wrong if the model studio's want to provide this service?

That's why smugmug lets people buy and sell photo's here, its strictly business and a little extra income which never hurts.

DavidTO

YouthTalent wrote:

I'm surprised DavidTO, You are the one who originally defended this.

And I still would defend building a portfolio for child models so that they could earn legitimate income modeling clothing for Target, Walmart, etc. And I don't dispute your right to sell your work, or say it's illegal. I do question the ethics of it, and I'm a pretty liberal guy. I just cannot think of a single legitimate reason for someone to want to buy one of these DVDs, and that's the question I keep asking. Modeling agencies would be given a portfolio, they would not buy these DVDs. *Maybe* if it were my own child I might want pictures of him, but really, as a father, I would *NOT* want pictures of my son that looked like this. And I ask again: who would? Aside from a prurient interest, what could someone possibly want with these DVDs?

Also, I have no problem with homosexuality, or homoerotic materials, but when you advertise homoerotic movies that involve young men on your site that you say has only the best of intentions, it rings false.

ridetwistyroads

YouthTalent, do you feel no responsibility were the photo's on your website to be viewed in a (far) less then buisness oriented manor?

I would.

YouthTalent

I will keep saying this,

You like what you like, other people like what they like.

This is strictly a business, my wife supports and assists in every part of this business as well.

I can keep posting photo's here in this thread, like the 4 i already found within 5 minutes, that do violate smugmugs TOS, but i guess that doesn't matter to you, huh?

I just got this e-mail from help@smugmug.com that Andy told me to send in:
From: "Dustin Worthen" <help@smugmug.com>
> I'm having a bit of a problem finding those galleries that contain the
> images in question. You've sent us links to individual photos, can you
> send us links to the galleries that contain them?
>
> -Dustin
>
>
>
>> Andy,
>>
>> Here is the photo's in question.
>>
>> http://www.smugmug.com/photos/54612428-M.jpg is from
>> http://kandy.smugmug.com/
>>
>> http://www.smugmug.com/photos/54640202-M.jpg is from
>> http://393home.smugmug.com/
>>
>> http://www.smugmug.com/photos/63231734-M.jpg is from
>> http://nancyrobertsphotography.smugmug.com/
>>
>> http://www.smugmug.com/photos/68913692-L.jpg is from
>> http://tomsbodypix.smugmug.com

Now, If the people at Smugmug can't even locate these violations, then Smugmug has alot more to worry about than me.

I'm not going to do your job for you guys, this is your company, you all need to fix these issues yourself. Get tracking scripts for your server or something!

All I did to find these photo's was do a keyword search on the words 'sex', 'nude' 'naked'