[quote=Justiceiro...A good memorial lets a place speak for itself. I think that when you feel what you feel at this place, it is the place speaking, and not the monument. A good monument calls attention to this, and then steps out of the way to let your reflect...[/quote]
I agree with you.
I have seen the monstruosity and think that it is a very poor ideia indeed.
Regards.
My sister and brother-in-law live in OK City, having moved there recently. On my last trip we went to the memorial. I'll agree that memorials and art can be very strange objects at times. Sometimes I think artists get too abstract or too fancy or too whatever, as if they are simply showing off how bizarre they can get, rather than focus at the task at hand, but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.
I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.
It doesn't look too bad in the drawings, but at the actual site there is a huge 2 story dirt mound that all of this will be built upon. Worse than that, it is built at the best spot in the park to view the WTC site. It used to be a quiet, unadorned, and peaceful little campo or flat green. Now you can't see anyhting because this thing is going to be in the way, and instead of an expanse of green before the river, you can watch the skyline only from about 15 feet of sidewalk.
I ma reminded of what Carlos V said when he viewed the catholic nave built within the old Alhambra,
""You have built what you or others might have built anywhere, but you have destroyed something unique in the world.""
... Sometimes I think artists get too abstract or too fancy or too whatever, as if they are simply showing off how bizarre they can get, rather than focus at the task at hand, but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.
I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.
One of the most plain-speaking, straight-forward, no-inerpetation required and strongest memorial I have seen in the world ... is the Iwo Jima flag rising memorial.
Maybe I am not artistic enough ... but why not have people instead of chairs? Why must we have symbols which require interpetation when the real thing is much more powerful ... for me my heart would beat quicker ... or ... completely stop if I saw bronze children perpetually at play ... frozen in time ... a plaque identifying each person at the base ... instead of chairs.
Look at the Iwo Jima memorial ... it immediately says war, courage, honor, country, duty, Marines, ... four of the six flag raisers died at Iwo, what would that memorial say if there were chairs depicted instead of our honored dead? Okay... that is an extreme example ... but I hope you get my intent ... and for those that died in a terrorist attack in OK City ... they also deserve a memorial, in my opinion, more meaningful than chairs.
but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.
I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.
that is exactily what i wanted to say .. i think this is what the designer had in mind as well.. and the people closest to the tragity Family and suvivors chose this design as there memorial.. not for us to question..
and the people closest to the tragity Family and suvivors chose this design as there memorial.. not for us to question..
I am going to have to strenuously disagree with that statement. Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings. I think we are oversesitive about people's feelings in this country.
I'm not sure how "public" the space in OKC is, or how central to public use- but I know the spaces that are the prime bones of contention in NYC are highly public and subject to much public use. The "9/11 families" have frankly gotten out of control; most of them aren't even residents of the lower west side- yet they expect to be defered to by the residents of that neighborhood when decisions are made that critically effect the neighborhood.
Likewise with the LSP memorial in New Jersey. I don't care if someone in Long Island likes the design or not, it's in my "front yard" so I ought to be consulted, if anyone is.
Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I
I am going to have to strenuously disagree with that statement. Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings. I think we are oversesitive about people's feelings in this country.
I'm not sure how "public" the space in OKC is, or how central to public use- but I know the spaces that are the prime bones of contention in NYC are highly public and subject to much public use. The "9/11 families" have frankly gotten out of control; most of them aren't even residents of the lower west side- yet they expect to be defered to by the residents of that neighborhood when decisions are made that critically effect the neighborhood.
Likewise with the LSP memorial in New Jersey. I don't care if someone in Long Island likes the design or not, it's in my "front yard" so I ought to be consulted, if anyone is.
Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I
I... Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings.
...
Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art...
Sorry about the hijacked thread .. it hard not responding to less than accurate info.
Facts are accurate or innacurate. Opinions can only be agreed or disagreed with. What we are discussing is a difference of opinion in regards to the suitability of certaint modes of expression of public art. As we are all engaged in an aesthetic pursuit here (photography), I think its an appropriate forum to have such a discussion in, hopefully without name calling.
Angelo, I think you can count yourself lucky that your photographs have created such responses. It means your photos are speaking to things that people find important.
I will leave and no longer stir the pot... because my emotions are to involved to discuss art..because i feel most oklahomans much like myself would be offended at someone calling the OKC Memorial site . just a piece of public art...
Angelo you know how i feel about your pix .. i most of the same ones on my site .. offers still there if you get to OK. look me up ...
I appreciate the fact that you are emotionally involved, allensphoto. But I would never call a piece of public art, of this type, "just" public art. Public art is, in a real sense, the highest expression of a culture and expresses its deepest concerns, goals and emotional losses.
I'm emotionally involved in public art issues as well, such as the 9/11 memorial in Liberty State Park near my home. That's why I think its important that its porperly done.
Comments
I agree with you.
I have seen the monstruosity and think that it is a very poor ideia indeed.
Regards.
Aint art crazy!
I think thats really nice!
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I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.
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It doesn't look too bad in the drawings, but at the actual site there is a huge 2 story dirt mound that all of this will be built upon. Worse than that, it is built at the best spot in the park to view the WTC site. It used to be a quiet, unadorned, and peaceful little campo or flat green. Now you can't see anyhting because this thing is going to be in the way, and instead of an expanse of green before the river, you can watch the skyline only from about 15 feet of sidewalk.
I ma reminded of what Carlos V said when he viewed the catholic nave built within the old Alhambra,
""You have built what you or others might have built anywhere, but you have destroyed something unique in the world.""
One of the most plain-speaking, straight-forward, no-inerpetation required and strongest memorial I have seen in the world ... is the Iwo Jima flag rising memorial.
Maybe I am not artistic enough ... but why not have people instead of chairs? Why must we have symbols which require interpetation when the real thing is much more powerful ... for me my heart would beat quicker ... or ... completely stop if I saw bronze children perpetually at play ... frozen in time ... a plaque identifying each person at the base ... instead of chairs.
Look at the Iwo Jima memorial ... it immediately says war, courage, honor, country, duty, Marines, ... four of the six flag raisers died at Iwo, what would that memorial say if there were chairs depicted instead of our honored dead? Okay... that is an extreme example ... but I hope you get my intent ... and for those that died in a terrorist attack in OK City ... they also deserve a memorial, in my opinion, more meaningful than chairs.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
that is exactily what i wanted to say .. i think this is what the designer had in mind as well.. and the people closest to the tragity Family and suvivors chose this design as there memorial.. not for us to question..
I am going to have to strenuously disagree with that statement. Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings. I think we are oversesitive about people's feelings in this country.
I'm not sure how "public" the space in OKC is, or how central to public use- but I know the spaces that are the prime bones of contention in NYC are highly public and subject to much public use. The "9/11 families" have frankly gotten out of control; most of them aren't even residents of the lower west side- yet they expect to be defered to by the residents of that neighborhood when decisions are made that critically effect the neighborhood.
Likewise with the LSP memorial in New Jersey. I don't care if someone in Long Island likes the design or not, it's in my "front yard" so I ought to be consulted, if anyone is.
Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I
Then you shouldn't have started it.
A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
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Angelo,
Yes you are right. I' m sorry.
It's the enthusiasm you know !...
have a nice week end.
Facts are accurate or innacurate. Opinions can only be agreed or disagreed with. What we are discussing is a difference of opinion in regards to the suitability of certaint modes of expression of public art. As we are all engaged in an aesthetic pursuit here (photography), I think its an appropriate forum to have such a discussion in, hopefully without name calling.
Angelo, I think you can count yourself lucky that your photographs have created such responses. It means your photos are speaking to things that people find important.
Angelo you know how i feel about your pix .. i most of the same ones on my site .. offers still there if you get to OK. look me up ...
I'm emotionally involved in public art issues as well, such as the 9/11 memorial in Liberty State Park near my home. That's why I think its important that its porperly done.