critique on forums
retro
Registered Users Posts: 303 Major grins
Something i've noticed just recently, might be because i'm pretty new or because dgrin has changed..?
Its really hard to get comments on your image posts if the first poster isnt a well known forum member.
And the most "scary" thing is that if this respected " forum member" says something about the pic in question most of the remaining posters pretty much copy the "well known forum member" post.
Personally i post my images at several different boards and i've noticed the phenomena on all those boards...it's pretty funny on one forum i get three pages of comments and on another just one or zero....I thought dgrin was different , but it isnt, and probably there will never be a completely objective forum..
Just some of my thoughts, sorry if you dont like them.
Its really hard to get comments on your image posts if the first poster isnt a well known forum member.
And the most "scary" thing is that if this respected " forum member" says something about the pic in question most of the remaining posters pretty much copy the "well known forum member" post.
Personally i post my images at several different boards and i've noticed the phenomena on all those boards...it's pretty funny on one forum i get three pages of comments and on another just one or zero....I thought dgrin was different , but it isnt, and probably there will never be a completely objective forum..
Just some of my thoughts, sorry if you dont like them.
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Comments
We think we are different, but certainly we can always improve. In the end, it's incumbent on EVERYONE to participate - to give as much as they expect to get.
1) look for orphans
2) take the time to respond to posts
3) share your knowledge, tips, techniques
4) cheer others on when the opportunity is there
5) give thoghtful criticism that's backed up with reasons, feelings
6) share your photos
7) lather, rinse, repeat
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1. like anything else, 5% of the people do 95% of the work. Those folks make up the bulk of the postings thereby establishing the forum's personality. So there's a small group of people doing alot of work.
2. those few folks like to banter back-and-forth with eachother...that's why they participate in a forum. They've established online personalities and have found grooves that fit.
3. regular participants can take criticism better and dish it out easier to other well-known posters...there's a tendency not to offend newbies.
4. newbies tend to post the same, old newbie stuff...and that can get boring to critique for the umpteenth time.
I think your post is a welcome point of view and should work to effect add'l input. This forum is more professional that most and can take it like a champ.
my .02
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And thanks photodoug + askme2flashu (what a nick LMAO) I guess youre right, just had one of my down moments,..:D
Personally i think even if what i said was true, we have to accept it, that's the way we works..unfortunately..:cry
thanks for listening
I hear what you're saying..
Here's my take on this:
- With the number of members getting close to 10K (have you seen DavidTO's contest?;-) it pretty hard to comment on everyone's pictures.
- As the time goes by and I develop stronger online (or even IRL) relationship with the poster, I feel it easier to post a constructive c&c without being afraid on hurting person's feelings
- "Well known forum members" are often the most experienced and skilled ones, both in their own photography and, this is extremely important, in C&C technique. It's kinda natural that many of them see similar pros and cons in the same picture
- Last but not least. I personally try not to comment on photos I do not like, with the exceptions of the Whipping Post and the people I know well enough (see #2).
(if you don't know what I mean, try to post a weak picture on Canon forum at dpreview). Again, that's why we have the WP, which is, thank goodness, limited to one post per week per person, and also supposed to hold only the best shots the person have, rather than "hey i just got my new digicam, took, like, a pikcha of my 'puter, like, hahahaha, lemme know waddaythink, lol".
All in all, I think it's in a nature of things..:): Not necessarily a bad thing, either...Statistically, lot of newcomers are also new to photography in general, and, as such, their images are often, well, very weak to say the least. While I don't mind such postings (we all gotta learn, right?), saying what I really think about such a weak photo may not necessarily help
Cheers!
thats really hard, i know im with all certainty not a prototype for the perfect dgrin photo critique...the more i think about it i realize i 'm one of them I'm complaining about...lol
We all has to improve.
Nik (and all),
There is always something nice to be said about every image, and always a kind way of framing criticism.
I think that as we're looking at ourselves, and how we post, it's worth noting that if we were to put in some extra effort we could post on more images, and that we could still tell the truth about them...even the ones we don't like.
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Well, as photodoug put it:
I mean, we all try, but it gets old fast..
You crave for a quick comment? (I'm not talking about *you* per se, some some hypothetical n00b).
"Your shot is about nothing". "The image is OOF". "You got the exposure wrong". "It's bland/flat". "Your white balance is out of whack". "Composition is hideous". "Colors are oversaturated". The list goes on and on..
Imagine getting some or all of these each time you post something. And quite often, they all can be true at the same time... Not many people can take it. I remember one old guy at stf got a heart attack after a *very mild* (and very true, IMHO) comment of one of our "well known forum members". I say, why cause something like that? Let him post and be happy, I'll critique somebody I know who can take it straight up...
Too many n00bs, too little time. Hence the advent of the WP...
Just my personal thoughts..
Well, you dont have to focus on the bad things, I yet to see a image with no positive features: i think all pictues has something going in them and probably it can be improved in one way or another..my point is :take 10 seconds and tell them / me /you your opinion and what they can make to improve it- and be sure to undarstand that what you are telling
them is just your personal opinion, who says you or the majority is right, the statistics says you are wrong,--and how many times has art history prove you to be wrong?
I'm not talking about you now Nikolai
Well, I don't see you or anybody else here commenting *every* image, and frankly, I'm rather glad you're not, since we all know *what kind* of people comment every image...
Sure. If I'm not mistaken, it's called "sugar coating" in English. Unfortunately, in too many a cases it would be "well, I'm glad you take this shot instead of an LSD one".
I agree. If we all put more effort in our posts (thus, putting more effort in learning photography, taking pciture, processing it, etc), I'm sure more people would like to comment on them.
But unfortunately we also have the situation when there was no effort spent on the image whatsover, yet the author demands as much attention as Yuri gets when he posts 3-4 pictures out of 200 on which he spent 10 hours in post...
Just my thoughts..
Personally i think the expression n00b belongs with the counterstrike kids not on a serious photography forum.
oh well, i might just have a bad day today...
If I think the shot is horrible, and they haven't asked for C&C, I'm definitely not saying anything.
Plus, there are personal preferences. Parents are naturally proud of their kids, but for someone not in the family, one child snapshot pretty much looks like another. Not a lot to say, really. So I usually don't.
Everyone likes to have some kind recognition for their shots, so I try to leave a comment when I can think of something that I like about a shot.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I'm afraid in many cases my gut reply according to your rules would be:
"1) Lousy shot. 2) Take a photography class".
Since I don't want to lie (and you don't want me to), I prefer to pass on and comment on the image where I can clearly see a person spent more than 10 seconds thinking of, composing and processing..
Of course, I understand that, but thanks for saying this out loud:-)
White balance totally off - great, - cropped totally wrong on one forum, cropp it another way on another forum - i dont care the unexpected crop makes it interesting..
THE main thing is the PICTURE. n00b or not.
Puh-lease, don't get all politically correct on me here, we already have enough rules (and enough people to enforce them).
It's not derogatory, it's just a "chat lingo".
Short for newbie:
Merriam-Webster: [SIZE=-1]NEWCOMER[/SIZE]; especially : a newcomer to cyberspace.
My addition: Usually used as a reference for a person that does not know better (in whatever sense).
One and the same person can be a complete pro in one area and a total n00b in another.
Bottom line: nothing to be ashamed of, it only means that a person have (a long way) to learn. We're all students of life. We're all n00bs in one sense or another.
Just MHO, of course
Sometimes images are posted for comment which have (IMHO) absolutely no redeeming qualities and it's a case of 'where would one start with a comment?' I'd like to say 'go and read a book or look at a site to get some understanding of basic composition', but this could be interpreted as being churlish.
In some other cases, the poster him/herself says something to the effect 'I haven't had time to do any post-production, or I know it's out of focus, or I know the highlights are blown, or whatever, but would you comment anyway', which is an immediate turn-off for me. If the photo hasn't been presented to the best of someone's ability by their own admission, again my reaction is 'why would I take the trouble if the poster hasn't'?
Then we have images posted which I interpret as just a cry for attention, and again these don't engender an enthusiasm in me to respond.
All that said and done, the majority of images posted for comment are genuinely presented, but there are a lot of them! Not everyone has the time, or only has the time occasionally to offer comments - that's called living in the 21st century.
Short. I am a most pratical/pragmatic man.
As long as I am concerned - and I think you know me a little - I like to receive critiques because they make me grow, learn.
I'm always ready to learn.
I like to be wipped (I'm not sadistical nor mashoquist) in the sense that this makes me learn.
But I do like to receive agreable comments from some dgriners I consider to be some kind of experts, some people that know far more than I do.
I have never belonged to other foruns so I can't compare.
This is rather time consuming and now, I am addicted to photography.
May be in 2 years I have enought. Don't know and I don't care about it.
I live the moment with you, my cyber photographic companions/friends.
I would like very much to have a lunch with you and talk during the afternoon. I could even invite you to eat grilled sardines and drink portuguese wine ... But you are too far away for that.
Saúde - without it we are nothing, everything is ruinned.
I love your work and your enthusiasm, and I'd love to join you for lunch when I'm next passing your way (which will be the first time). But the feeling's mutual - I like you to be my guest for lunch when you are next in these parts, then we'll go shoot some images!
Folks post shots for various reasons. You have the "serious artists" who want some heavy critique to the newcomers to photography who are posting a shot of their kid, pet or backyard flower and just want to share. I try to gear my response to what I perceive the intent of the poster to be.
I want to see Dgrin become the best photography site on the web and you need to foster a feeling of community to accomplish that. I think there's room here to provide serious critique and also to provide some encouragement to the new folks.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Yep, my point exactly.. Looks especially nice in the Whipping Post, where everybody's supposed to give some serious c&c
It's been briefly discussed in Dragon's thread about the Help Vampires, but I think it also makes sense in the light of this discussion: Entitlement Generation.
Cheers!
That's very true, and that's totally fine. The diversity is what make the life interesting. "May a hundred flowers bloom" (Comrade Mao:-).
However, when an author of a flower/pet/kid snap demands as much attention and recognition as the "serious artist" gets... In this case I may have an itty-bitty problem commenting (or spending any time at all)...
This is just me, of course!
Cheers!
I have yet seen anyone "demand" attention any more than anyone else. Heck, we all are "demanding" attention whenever we post a pic.
Normally the pictures that are perceived to be "better" garner more attention. Personally I like to give more attention to folks who are starting to get serious about photography. Their pics may not be technically superior but they have an enthusiasm for photography that's fun to be around.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I hadn't realized that dGrin had now reached a higher echelon
with true serious photographers who are very busy being such. I am kind of speechless here.
And actually, Harry is the one making sense. Maybe this is all a
dream!
ginger (and this used to be such a nice small friendly forum with
struggling photographers at all levels.......)
I am not sure the person who started this was asking for "insults"
on his photos, just comments would probably have been OK.
To me, a n00b is just someone who needs a different kind of feedback and help.
I am very proud of how this community trains shooters "up", improving their skills and knowledge.
And I agree with Harry. The posters who demand attention are very few and far between, and a kind word pointing out the dynamics of a forum like this will usually get them to see the world with larger eyes.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I think that this is also worth considering...
A lack of response is a response.
I would imagine that most people who take the time to post an image are looking for some feedback. Preferably positive feedback, but even constructive criticism is an acknowledgement of the work done.
No response from the list, would tend to indicate that the image is unworthy of feedback and indicates a lack of quality or photographic interest to the extent that it was not worth the time or effort to critique.
In the animal training world, we call this a LRS (least reinforcing stimulus) and it can be quite effective in changing behavior. (The quote below is from a column written by Amy Sutherland)
I'm a total n00b in animal training, but you pretty much described my feelings:-)
Cheers!